Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (
More info?)
maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
> Twinge wrote:
>
>>Spoily.
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>>>maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote
>>>
>>>> UZI wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> W artykule:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Greetings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It had to happen sooner or later. I finally got a
>>>>>> wish-engine running. While the game will be a cakewalk from
>>>>>> now on I would like to be an archmage. Call me shallow, but
>>>>>> it just seems a bit cool.
>>>>>
>>>>> But HOW it works? As I remember, each cast of Wish drains
>>>>> your stats. So how you manage to neutralize that?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The engine I am running now is a ring engine that builds on the
>>>> principle that you can get more blessed PoX out of 19 wishes
>>>> than it takes (on average) to polypile it back to 19 wishes
>>>> again. Very timeconsuming.
>>>>
>>
>> Might try automating some of it with ADOMBot or such. I made a
>> script to keep exchanging until I got Djinn anyway, and you can
>> make it more advanced than that. (Although, scripting in the latest
>> version is fairly broken Vlad said ;O)
>>
>
> Playing 1.0 == no bots for me. However I can send a character
> sequence to the xterm (eg. !v=bb[Enter], to dip the second ring stack
> (the used rings) in the second potion stack and pick them up by a
> simple key press. Still a lot of tapping and concentration - you have
> to watch every dip. Also I have for wishing for spells and exchange.
> I had been working for ten straight hours before I figured it out.
> Sometimes you just need to sleep
.
>
> Got the materials to start it (about 15 wishes and 15 PoX as well as
> plenty of water, scrolls of repair and redundant rings) by bansheeing
> ABDs in the BDC. This seems to be a near guaranteed way of getting it
> though it does require a firm tongue in the cheek as well as
> patience. It was started a bit on the lower margin of the starting
> requirements, but it wasn't something I definately had decided to do
> beforehand. Nevertheless I wanted to give it a shot and made it run.
>
>
>> anxious triffid wrote:
>>
>>> Is it possible to poly spellbooks? No reason why it shouldn't be,
>>> but I have never tried it myself.
>>
>> This would be downright painful. It would take a lot more effort
>> than wishing for the spellbook or simply trying to keep the Djinn
>> Engine running strong.
>>
>
> Indeed. The bigger the engine the better it works. Most of all as the
> blessing overhead for water and PoX is lower.
>
>
>> Jaakko Iisala wrote:
>>
>>> I think you cant wish for wishes atleast wands or rings.
>>
>> Not directly. you can, however, wish for "spellbooks" and get
>> random spellbooks, each of which has a chance of being Wish.
>>
>
> Precisely. However this is the most painful ADOM experience ever.
> Jeez it's boring. I think I'll give it a rest and fetch the remaining
> trinkets here and there.
>
>
>> Piotr Figiel wrote:
>>
>>> Isn't it true that propability of creating certain item depends
>>> of how many times it was created before? If it's true, I think
>>> you can't get infinite wishes with this technique. I don't know
>>> the exact equation for probability but I've been trying this and
>>> got bored after getting ~40 rings, after that I tried many times
>>> and haven't succeed in creating more RoDS.
>>
>> False. Everything has a set creation probability and it doesn't
>> change.
>>
>
> Not my impression either. But occationally you'll need a huge amount
> for one polymorph. My record is 162 dips for one stack. Yikes. You
> simply need to be confident.
>
>
>> . .
>>
>> Okay. When I was looking up the chances for learning spells, I also
>> found the data for the creation probability of each individual
>> book. Wish is _extremely_ rare, as is expected - though I know
>> someone who actually started with a spellbook of Wish once
>> (HOPEFULLY this list displays correctly)
>>
>>The List:
>>Spellbook Chan Diff Prob
>>Wish 1 3000 0.03%
>>Create Item 4 250 0.13%
>>Petrification 4 120 0.13%
>>Greater Identify 4 100 0.13%
>>Earthquake 4 80 0.13%
>>Identify 4 75 0.13%
>>Heal 4 40 0.13%
>>Death Ray 20 100 0.65%
>>Mystic Shovel 20 100 0.65%
>>Summon Monsters 20 30 0.65%
>>Improved Fireball 20 30 0.65%
>>Cure Critical Wound 20 15 0.65%
>>Cure Serious Wounds 20 10 0.65%
>>Destroy Undead 20 8 0.65%
>>Remove Curse 40 50 1.31%
>>Magic Map 40 40 1.31%
>>Acid Ball 40 35 1.31%
>>Revalation 40 33 1.31%
>>Lightning Ball 40 30 1.31%
>>Ice Ball 40 25 1.31%
>>Fireball 40 20 1.31%
>>Farsight 40 17 1.31%
>>Acid Bolt 40 15 1.31%
>>Scare Monster 40 12 1.31%
>>Disarm Trap 40 10 1.31%
>>Neutralize Poison 40 10 1.31%
>>Know Alignment 40 10 1.31%
>>Bless 40 8 1.31%
>>Cure Disease 40 8 1.31%
>>Teleportation 100 22 3.26%
>>Strength of Atlas 100 15 3.26%
>>Lightning Bolt 100 12 3.26%
>>Frost Bolt 100 12 3.26%
>>Web 100 12 3.26%
>>Invisibility 100 10 3.26%
>>Fire Bolt 100 10 3.26%
>>Calm Monster 100 8 3.26%
>>Magic Lock 100 8 3.26%
>>Stun Ray 100 8 3.26%
>>Burning Hands 100 8 3.26%
>>Slow Poison 100 6 3.26%
>>Cure Light Wounds 100 5 3.26%
>>Knock 200 12 6.53%
>>Slow Monster 200 7 6.53%
>>Darkness 300 4 9.79%
>>Light 300 3 9.79%
>>
>> Prob shows the overall chances of getting that spell whenever a
>> spellbook is generated (except for special cases like the library,
>> of course). Diff(iculty) shows the value that is factored in when
>> trying to learn the spell.
>>
>> So... you'll have to generate 3065 spellbooks, on average, to get
>> only one spellbook of Wish. This translates into ~1022 Wishes, on
>> average. So, it _will_ take a while ;O
>>
>
> I am past that by a margin (I think I have rounded 2000 wishes), but
> it is a chance event after all. It ought to come around sooner or
> later. Just need to get some confidence and reassurance back. Also
> neat to know I can stay on D8 and do the wishing.
>
> I am playing a Sword Dark Elven Farmer (a powerful combination once
> it gets started) and was able to read Create Item several times. In
> fact I have not failed once in reading now that my learning is 99 and
> I get astronomical numbers of casting so I just destroy the
> spellbooks. I think (big emphasis on think here) that I might
> actually read the damn Wish book in a special effect room once I get
> it *sigh*. I am also thinking why risk it when ~300 blessed potions
> of wonder ought to solve it. We'll see.
>
> To Vlad: My compliments on the creation of the ItemDex probability
> calculator, however I would also like to see a polypile probability.
> E.g. what is the chance of getting a fat stack of writing kits out of
> a stack of keys and so forth. And AoLS which you could (at risk and
> danger) use the ancient scythe to generate. So how many potions of
> raw chaos do you actually need to generate one AoLS on D2. Apparently
> you can never get artifacts from polypiling/chaos roulette so these
> need to be excluded.
>
This also depends if you're using exchange or raw chaos. There are
several fundamental differances. Raw chaos can only create one item,
while exchange works like normal dipping (19 rings, 9 scrolls, etc.).
When using exchange you'll never create the same thing you already had,
and that's where, of course, the improved chances come into play. With
Raw Chaos, you still can't create what you already have -- except that
with raw chaos, if you would have created what you already have, it
instead explodes. (So with raw chaos, it's actually better to start with
rare items as the base - at least, this is what I've infered from the
code, and it seems correct.)
I never thought to investigate writing sets, but I did run the numbers
for lifesaving and SLB. You have a 1.08% chance (about 93 tries on
average) to pull a AoLS on D:2. Not good odds; you'll explode it about 6
times before you get the amulet. SLB odds are a bit better: 3.25% chance
on D:3. You'll probably only explode 3-4 times before you pull a pair of
those, hehe.
Because Raw Chaos' explosion chances are higher for common items, it
might be best to use multiple items to start with instead of just
re-using whatever it turns into. This will d3ecrease the explosions a
fair bit, especially for SLB (Don't use Light or Leather Boots).
In general, the odds are pretty poor at best. Exchange will give you
both higher odds (goes up to over 5% for SLB when using light or leather
boots) and less danger, but can't be mass produced. If Vlad added this
info, he'd still need 2 seperate percentages; one for raw chaos and one
for exchange. It probably wouldn't be too particularily difficult to
implement, it would just give the odds based on the total for each item
group - artifacts, essentially (and exchange would subtract the selected
item's probability as well). Not something that many people would get a
lot of use out of, though
(I'll need to rin some more in-game tests to verify that raw chaos'
explosion chance is, in fact, the creation probabilty of whatever is
dipped. It seems to flow with the inconsisent percentages between
different items I had been getting before I saw that in the code, though.)
Looks like Vlad's Re-wrapper is working out well for you. 60 lines might
be a bit overkill but it works, at any rate =) I've been using the
re-wrap option in thunderbird in my messages every time now, so
hopefully they're displaying correctly for Wanderer
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