JADE Development

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Hi!

Just to follow up some of the questions / comments:

- Multiplayer won't happen in the foreseeable future. There are so
many issues with multiplayer roguelike gaming (as far as I am
concerned) that I don't want to waste tie right now on this issue. I
prefer to create a world that is as complex, dynamic and "real" as
possible ("real" as far as a living fantasy world is concerned ;-)

- Differences between monsters and players: Basically there are none.
An orc is an orc, whether controlled by the player or the game engine.
The range of actions taken by PCs and NPC will vary, especially at the
start, since it's quite a bit of work to teach monsters to do all the
interesting things. But this will happen over time and is something
that can be nicely evolved.

- Interesting side effect of NPCs being like PCs: All monsters will
have equipment so that you'll be going to find a lot more stuff than
in ADOM. E.g. orcs will wear something like studded leather, have a
medium shield and a spear or battle axe and other stuff in their
inventory - and those things aren't simply going to disappear when an
orc is killed.

- Shops: yes, towns will have a lot more shops with standard
equipment. Otherwise it would be pretty impossible to explore the huge
JADE worlds.

- Character development: This is my main area of interest. In the
optimal case you will be able to play a character for years (if you
want) and still be able to develop him further on. The main features
to allow for this:
* a modified open-ended gaming engine that no longer has _any_ level
caps (50 or whatever)
* skill development (again open-ended) based on levels _and_ usage
* multi-classing (so you can be a fighter/6, rogue/12, wizard/35 if
you want - and monsters can and will be such combinations, too ;-)

The new system will use a modified version of what ADOM uses for
combat - I have code-named it the d'Infinity engine for now. The basic
idea is that the game internally always rolls a modified d20 for
everything, but adds are added to the sides of the die (something only
a computer can do but IMHO is very elegant for an open-ended system).

Example:
- An average difficulty might be a value of 10 that you need to
achieve or surpass to be successful.
- If you have no bonusses at all the game will internally roll 1d20
and compare the result to 10.
- Now assume that your PC is somewhat skilled at what he is trying to
do - let's say he's got a bonus of +7. Internally the game now will
roll 1d(20+7)=1d27 for the check. And this is the nice thing: Even if
you are _very_ high-level and the game your PC has a +48 bonus, the
rolls still is 1d(20+48)=1d68 with some chance for failure. One might
think that the chance for failure is too high - but look at the heroes
in movies: hey also fail whenever it is appropriate for the director.
IMHO this keeps the game exciting. Mybe I'll twek the system a bit by
e.g. doubling the add after +20, trippling it after +40 and so on so
that the above-mentioned +48 bonus yields a 1d(20 + 1 * 20 + 2 * 20 +
3 * 8) for a total roll of 1d104 or so... we'll see.

A nice side effect of this is that difficulty values need not rise
unnessarily - the base values of say 5 (easy), 10 (average), 15
(challenging), 20 (difficult), 25 (very difficult), 30 (insanely hard)
and 40 (impossible) will suffice for quite some time. DV values also
will remain in a contained range, etc.

Just some thoughts - all this is constantly being revised ;-)

Merry Christmas,

Thomas Biskup
ADOM Maintainer
http://www.adom.de
12 answers Last reply
More about jade development
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    I've got to say, all this JADE talk is quite exciting. I'm excited
    because:

    The features you are mentioning are all very exciting.

    Actually seeing real progress being made on this is very exciting.

    The real-time aspect of your new development journal keeps everyone
    eagerly anticipating this game with a sense of what's going on - and if
    it helps keep you motivated to keep writing, even better!

    The game itself seems to be quite the feat. I think it's safe to say
    that pretty much every roguelike is either a giant mass of spaghetti
    code - years of added features, monsters, places, you name it - or
    forks thereof. But a roguelike in a modern language designed from the
    bottom up by someone who already has all the experience and design
    sense from having built something as massive (and, let's face it,
    superior) as ADoM? Very exciting.
    Bravo, and keep us posted!

    -Z. D. Smith
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    "Thomas Biskup" <thomas.biskup@gmx.net> wrote in message
    news:3885dfa5.0412231116.160ec690@posting.google.com...
    > Hi!
    >
    [snip]
    > Just some thoughts - all this is constantly being revised ;-)
    >
    > Merry Christmas,
    >
    > Thomas Biskup
    > ADOM Maintainer
    > http://www.adom.de

    Fascinating. Out of curiosity, how far along are you in mainline story/world
    development? Even if only on paper. Are you still working on technical
    details and systems, or have you already hashed out a plan for the game (at
    least in your head) to some degree?
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    >
    > Just some thoughts - all this is constantly being revised ;-)
    >
    > Merry Christmas,
    >

    OH MY GOD, Creator just spoken!!! ooo we bow before thee, mighy One.
    forget that christmas cliche, jesus should celebrate your birthday, o
    great One!
    bhhbhhhhhdroool
    <forgive me for my childlish behavior, but replaying to post Allmighty
    Creator sent equals dying on the cross for sins of mankind>
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    On 23 Dec 2004 11:16:19 -0800, Thomas Biskup wrote:

    > Hi!
    >
    > Just to follow up some of the questions / comments:

    [snip]

    Yes, yes, great, great, but what about ADOM?

    Some time ago, you wrote:
    >> ... updating ADOM / JADE. The plans have changed again: Finally
    >> enough money was spent to enable me to buy a shiny cool iMac (the
    >> spherical one). I love it :-) As a result there _must_ be a new ADOM
    >> version coming and it _must_ be available for Mac users (maybe for
    >> Mac OS X first - I need to learn coding for the Mac fast ;-). Or I
    >> need to convince Jochen to do it - the next money being collected
    >> definitely goes to Jochen ;-)
    >> [snip]
    >> And to say "Thank you" to everyone out there who sent money via
    >> PayPal... a new ADOM version (including Mac support) is coming. I
    >> promised... even if that pushes JADE back... *sigh* where's the
    >> millionaire ADOmite with too much money on his/her hands ;-) ?

    Also, an anonymous person once posted this:
    >> I just got an e-mail from Thomas a day or two ago and he told me
    >> ADOM is NOT dead. He purchased a used mac with the donation money
    >> and hopefully there will be a new version out before the end of the
    >> year.

    --
    AdomBot - bot, demos, sounds, cheats, and more
    http://www.geocities.com/adombot/
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
    > On 23 Dec 2004 11:16:19 -0800, Thomas Biskup wrote:
    >
    >
    >> Hi!
    >>
    >> Just to follow up some of the questions / comments:
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    > Yes, yes, great, great, but what about ADOM?
    >
    > Some time ago, you wrote:
    >
    >>> ... updating ADOM / JADE. The plans have changed again: Finally
    >>> enough money was spent to enable me to buy a shiny cool iMac (the
    >>> spherical one). I love it :-) As a result there _must_ be a new
    >>> ADOM version coming and it _must_ be available for Mac users
    >>> (maybe for Mac OS X first - I need to learn coding for the Mac
    >>> fast ;-). Or I need to convince Jochen to do it - the next money
    >>> being collected definitely goes to Jochen ;-) [snip] And to say
    >>> "Thank you" to everyone out there who sent money via PayPal... a
    >>> new ADOM version (including Mac support) is coming. I promised...
    >>> even if that pushes JADE back... *sigh* where's the millionaire
    >>> ADOmite with too much money on his/her hands ;-) ?
    >
    >
    > Also, an anonymous person once posted this:
    >
    >>> I just got an e-mail from Thomas a day or two ago and he told me
    >>> ADOM is NOT dead. He purchased a used mac with the donation money
    >>> and hopefully there will be a new version out before the end of
    >>> the year.

    Indeed. As interesting as the developments for JADE are, we'd like to
    see ADOM get some attention too! =)

    On a related note, assuming Thomas actually reads this, is there any
    better way to contact you about bug reports than the bug database? The
    database gets pretty messy, and I don't know if you ever have time to go
    through them all. It'd be nice for some of the more experienced players
    and code divers to have some methoud of giving you information about
    some of the more obscure bugs directly, such as the fact that you always
    fall at least once when entering the rift ;)
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Thomas Biskup wrote:

    [...]
    > - Character development: This is my main area of interest. In the
    > optimal case you will be able to play a character for years (if you
    > want) and still be able to develop him further on.

    But please, please make sure that it will be possible to recover a
    crashed game; maybe somewhat similar to NetHack. It is extremely
    frustrating to *BLAM* lose a character you played for many days and
    many hours; making backup copies of the saved game is not an option for
    me.

    Thumbs up, Thomas!
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    In this case, perhaps have ADOM autosave a file (called
    autosave_*insert character name here*) every time you level up, go into
    a new dungeon level, and whenever you kill 30 monsters in one dungeon
    level. This autosave file would only be openable if there was a
    corresponding .err file(ADOM got closed by something other than the
    shift-Q command or ctrl+alt+delete)
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Thomas Biskup wrote:
    > Hi!
    And hello to you my master and commander.

    > Just to follow up some of the questions / comments:
    >
    > - Multiplayer won't happen in the foreseeable future.
    I salute you for that decision. To me a roguelike is a
    personal and individual challenge.

    > - Differences between monsters and players: Basically
    > there are none. An orc is an orc, whether controlled by
    > the player or the game engine. The range of actions
    > taken by PCs and NPC will vary, especially at the start,
    > since it's quite a bit of work to teach monsters to do
    > all the interesting things. But this will happen over
    > time and is something that can be nicely evolved.
    That is a fab idea. It is very logical and I sincerely
    think it can work in practise.

    > - Interesting side effect of NPCs being like PCs: All
    > monsters will have equipment so that you'll be going to
    > find a lot more stuff than in ADOM. E.g. orcs will wear
    > something like studded leather, have a medium shield and
    > a spear or battle axe and other stuff in their inventory
    > - and those things aren't simply going to disappear when
    > an orc is killed.
    Also workable. After all most of the items will be useless
    in practise, but occationally you find something neat when
    you vanquish a named or unusual foe. A good thing about
    ADOM is the balance between guaranteed and random items.
    As I see it this feature will only emphasize that.

    > - Shops: yes, towns will have a lot more shops with
    > standard equipment. Otherwise it would be pretty
    > impossible to explore the huge JADE worlds.
    I also hope to see guilds in the new kick-ass towns you
    have/are developing. The smith in Dwarftown and the
    thieves in Holeinthewall are good guidelines. They can
    offer some services to all characters (much in line with
    the services in ADOM), but special services to the class
    in question. E.g. the assasins guild could offer training
    in Backstabbing and sell poison to all, but assasins get
    special deals and the possibility to do "hits".

    > - Character development: This is my main area of
    > interest. In the optimal case you will be able to play a
    > character for years (if you want) and still be able to
    > develop him further on. The main features to allow for
    > this:
    > * a modified open-ended gaming engine that no longer has
    > _any_ level caps (50 or whatever)
    > * skill development (again open-ended) based on levels
    > _and_ usage * multi-classing (so you can be a fighter/6,
    > rogue/12, wizard/35 if you want - and monsters can and
    > will be such combinations, too ;-)
    I don't know if multiclassing is such a good idea. After
    all we have a Barbarian Archmage victory post from ADOM,
    which illustrates that the classes are mere starting
    archetypes and you do not have to conform to a specific
    pattern for a given class. I think a system free of levels
    or level-caps is the way forward. I have my best pen and
    paper RPG experiences from systems that to not use levels
    at all.

    > The new system will use a modified version of what ADOM
    > uses for combat - I have code-named it the d'Infinity
    > engine for now. The basic idea is that the game
    > internally always rolls a modified d20 for everything,
    > but adds are added to the sides of the die (something
    > only a computer can do but IMHO is very elegant for an
    > open-ended system).
    Most things in nature are destributed according to the
    normal destribution. A weapon that does between 1 and 8
    points of damage will occationally bounce off (doing 1) or
    hit a soft spot (doing 8), but most frequently do 4-5
    points of damage. So we have done away with single dice
    and only use them for truely chance events. A 1dx is read
    as (3dx)/3. Just food for thought.

    > Example:
    An example of a chance event. In this case a single dice
    is often preferable.
    > Merry Christmas,
    And a merry Christmas to you too.
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    From: BUDNA@hotmail.com
    Date: 28 Dec 2004 08:40:05 -0800

    >This autosave file would only be openable if there was a
    >corresponding .err file(ADOM got closed by something other than the
    >shift-Q command or ctrl+alt+delete)

    There won't be an .err file for a system crash or power failure either, and
    that's the number two and three cause of characters lost to something other
    than death (the usually trapped SIGSEGVs (Signal 291/Signal 11) being number
    one).
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
    > Thomas Biskup wrote:
    >
    >>- Character development: This is my main area of
    >>interest. In the optimal case you will be able to play a
    >>character for years (if you want) and still be able to
    >>develop him further on. The main features to allow for
    >>this:
    >>* a modified open-ended gaming engine that no longer has
    >>_any_ level caps (50 or whatever)
    >>* skill development (again open-ended) based on levels
    >>_and_ usage * multi-classing (so you can be a fighter/6,
    >>rogue/12, wizard/35 if you want - and monsters can and
    >>will be such combinations, too ;-)
    >
    > I don't know if multiclassing is such a good idea. After
    > all we have a Barbarian Archmage victory post from ADOM,
    > which illustrates that the classes are mere starting
    > archetypes and you do not have to conform to a specific
    > pattern for a given class.

    That barbarian never cast any spells except for the bookcast wishes. If you
    wanted to play a barbarian as a wizard you'd need both the spellbook and to have
    randomly learned the spell, and then always cast from a book. You'd need to be a
    fair bit into the game already for this to be possible, your PP would be quite
    on the low side and it certainly wouldn't be much fun. Although possible, saying
    a barbarian can be played as a wizard is rather misleading.

    - ToGu
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    ToGu wrote:
    > maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
    >> Thomas Biskup wrote:
    >>
    >>> - Character development: This is my main area of
    >>> interest. In the optimal case you will be able to play
    >>> a character for years (if you want) and still be able
    >>> to develop him further on. The main features to allow
    >>> for this:
    >>> * a modified open-ended gaming engine that no longer
    >>> has _any_ level caps (50 or whatever)
    >>> * skill development (again open-ended) based on levels
    >>> _and_ usage * multi-classing (so you can be a
    >>> fighter/6, rogue/12, wizard/35 if you want - and
    >>> monsters can and will be such combinations, too ;-)
    >>
    >> I don't know if multiclassing is such a good idea.
    >> After all we have a Barbarian Archmage victory post
    >> from ADOM, which illustrates that the classes are mere
    >> starting archetypes and you do not have to conform to a
    >> specific pattern for a given class.
    >
    > That barbarian never cast any spells except for the
    > bookcast wishes. If you wanted to play a barbarian as a
    > wizard you'd need both the spellbook and to have
    > randomly learned the spell, and then always cast from a
    > book. You'd need to be a fair bit into the game already
    > for this to be possible, your PP would be quite on the
    > low side and it certainly wouldn't be much fun. Although
    > possible, saying a barbarian can be played as a wizard
    > is rather misleading.
    >
    > - ToGu

    Misleading perhaps. On the other hand I have a Farmer with
    a ring wish engine who gets ~2000 castings pr. book read.
    Had no problems reading Create Item. So perhaps the
    Barbarian example was misleading, but let's just say that
    anything but Barbarians and Mindcrafters can become
    prominent mages and leave it at that.

    My point seems to have gotten lost. I do _NOT_ like a
    class-restricted system, where you can only cast spells if
    you are a mage, only use certain if equipment if you are
    this and that. I like the current system, where you
    naturally adapt into the spellcaster role. It may
    certainly take more work for some classes, but I find that
    very logical. After all a fighter-type class get
    significant benefits in melee and should use some effort
    to learn the arcane arts.
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    > Hi!
    >
    > Just to follow up some of the questions / comments:
    >
    > - Multiplayer won't happen in the foreseeable future. There are so
    > many issues with multiplayer roguelike gaming (as far as I am
    > concerned) that I don't want to waste tie right now on this issue. I
    > prefer to create a world that is as complex, dynamic and "real" as
    > possible ("real" as far as a living fantasy world is concerned ;-)
    >
    > - Differences between monsters and players: Basically there are none.
    > An orc is an orc, whether controlled by the player or the game engine.
    > The range of actions taken by PCs and NPC will vary, especially at the
    > start, since it's quite a bit of work to teach monsters to do all the
    > interesting things. But this will happen over time and is something
    > that can be nicely evolved.
    >
    > - Interesting side effect of NPCs being like PCs: All monsters will
    > have equipment so that you'll be going to find a lot more stuff than
    > in ADOM. E.g. orcs will wear something like studded leather, have a
    > medium shield and a spear or battle axe and other stuff in their
    > inventory - and those things aren't simply going to disappear when an
    > orc is killed.
    >
    > - Shops: yes, towns will have a lot more shops with standard
    > equipment. Otherwise it would be pretty impossible to explore the huge
    > JADE worlds.
    >
    > - Character development: This is my main area of interest. In the
    > optimal case you will be able to play a character for years (if you
    > want) and still be able to develop him further on. The main features
    > to allow for this:
    > * a modified open-ended gaming engine that no longer has _any_ level
    > caps (50 or whatever)
    > * skill development (again open-ended) based on levels _and_ usage
    > * multi-classing (so you can be a fighter/6, rogue/12, wizard/35 if
    > you want - and monsters can and will be such combinations, too ;-)
    >
    > The new system will use a modified version of what ADOM uses for
    > combat - I have code-named it the d'Infinity engine for now. The basic
    > idea is that the game internally always rolls a modified d20 for
    > everything, but adds are added to the sides of the die (something only
    > a computer can do but IMHO is very elegant for an open-ended system).
    >
    > Example:
    > - An average difficulty might be a value of 10 that you need to
    > achieve or surpass to be successful.
    > - If you have no bonusses at all the game will internally roll 1d20
    > and compare the result to 10.
    > - Now assume that your PC is somewhat skilled at what he is trying to
    > do - let's say he's got a bonus of +7. Internally the game now will
    > roll 1d(20+7)=1d27 for the check. And this is the nice thing: Even if
    > you are _very_ high-level and the game your PC has a +48 bonus, the
    > rolls still is 1d(20+48)=1d68 with some chance for failure. One might
    > think that the chance for failure is too high - but look at the heroes
    > in movies: hey also fail whenever it is appropriate for the director.
    > IMHO this keeps the game exciting. Mybe I'll twek the system a bit by
    > e.g. doubling the add after +20, trippling it after +40 and so on so
    > that the above-mentioned +48 bonus yields a 1d(20 + 1 * 20 + 2 * 20 +
    > 3 * 8) for a total roll of 1d104 or so... we'll see.
    >
    > A nice side effect of this is that difficulty values need not rise
    > unnessarily - the base values of say 5 (easy), 10 (average), 15
    > (challenging), 20 (difficult), 25 (very difficult), 30 (insanely hard)
    > and 40 (impossible) will suffice for quite some time. DV values also
    > will remain in a contained range, etc.
    >
    > Just some thoughts - all this is constantly being revised ;-)
    >
    > Merry Christmas,
    >
    > Thomas Biskup
    > ADOM Maintainer
    > http://www.adom.de

    Another thought - how about if JADE features some of the Towns, dungeons
    and/or countryside of the Ancardia that we all know and love? But in a much
    lator timeframe and for example have a graveyard with some of the NPC's in
    it (for example). But not as a major part - just one of those things you
    come accross


    Lachlan
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