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List of most important bugs

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Anonymous
January 12, 2005 12:05:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea if we
had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't want to
look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That would certainly
speed up adom development.
I know this is not a new idea and was already discussed about a year ago,
so:
Has somebody already started a list?

And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would do it,
but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I might just
accidentally mix a few things up)

--
Gee, Toto, I don't think we are in Kansas anymore.

More about : list important bugs

Anonymous
January 12, 2005 12:05:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

xhoch3 wrote:
> Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea
> if we had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't
> want to look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That would
> certainly speed up adom development. I know this is not a new idea
> and was already discussed about a year ago, so: Has somebody already
> started a list?
>
> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would
> do it, but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I
> might just accidentally mix a few things up)

Not all of these are that important, persay, but some of them you can't
really find out by playing so I'll mention them.

You always fall at least once when entering the rift. There is a section
that trains your stats if you manage to descend the rift without
falling, so it doesn't appear to have been done on purpose.

Unicorn is supposed to decrease the amount of alignment you lose when
lawful, but it actually increase it. (My apologies here: Vlad and I
already figured out his initial thought that Wand and Book had the same
bug as unicorn was incorrect, and they do in fact work as advertised. I
forgot :p )

Thug corpses have a bounty value on thier head, by Twatt won't accept them.

Piety can go so low that it loops back over and becomes positive.

Killing enough cats makes the cat lord give you only 1exp when you kill
it. (assumedly loops to negative kind of like piety)

You need to be weilding a weapon to be a true berserker, so
beastfighters kind of get screwed. (most likely unintentional I'd say.)

When increasing a stat based on your current stat, there is a bug that
makes it more likely to gain at 25 and 28 of a stat than there is at 22.
This is causes by a piece of code that appears to be meant only for 30+
of a stat also being run for 21+.

Trying to pick up items and canceling descreses the turn count. (Might
be other requirements for this one, I'm not certain.)

I'm pretty sure there is no plural for figurines of wonderous power,
which means you can only wish for one. I haven't checked this one out
too throughly.


That's all I found/remembered real quick anyway. Most of these are
pretty quick and easy fixes if they can be found in the sprawling mass
of code that is ADOM ;) 
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 12:05:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

This is fairly minor, but it's odd when you come across it. Every time
I've visited the banshee in 1.1.1, the room she is originally in has
secret doors all along the lower (southern?) wall.
Related resources
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 12:05:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:12:30 -0700, Twinge wrote:

> xhoch3 wrote:
>> Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea
>> if we had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't
>> want to look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That would
>> certainly speed up adom development. I know this is not a new idea
>> and was already discussed about a year ago, so: Has somebody already
>> started a list?
>>
>> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would
>> do it, but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I
>> might just accidentally mix a few things up)
>
> Not all of these are that important, persay, but some of them you can't
> really find out by playing so I'll mention them.
>
> That's all I found/remembered real quick anyway. Most of these are
> pretty quick and easy fixes if they can be found in the sprawling mass
> of code that is ADOM ;) 

Walking into a wall makes a turn pass for the healing counter (and
possibly others) but not for monster movement.
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 12:49:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Jason Allen wrote:
> This is fairly minor, but it's odd when you come across it. Every time
> I've visited the banshee in 1.1.1, the room she is originally in has
> secret doors all along the lower (southern?) wall.

The doors surround the room, I do believe. I can't recall at the moment
if there's a reason for it (can't dig in accidentally?).

--
Curry Bucket's Controversial Web Presence:
The Birthplace of Teenage Angst
http://chat.carleton.ca/~jsingh3/
or http://www.currybucket.cjb.net/
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 2:37:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Twinge wrote:

> xhoch3 wrote:
>
>> Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea
>> if we had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't
>> want to look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That would
>> certainly speed up adom development. I know this is not a new idea
>> and was already discussed about a year ago, so: Has somebody already
>> started a list?
>>
>> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would
>> do it, but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I
>> might just accidentally mix a few things up)
>
>
> Not all of these are that important, persay, but some of them you can't
> really find out by playing so I'll mention them.

As I mentioned in the other posting: So what? :-)

If a particular bug could only be found by my Finnish people on the 7th
of July or by my granny while she is riding her bicycle, they can go to
the bug database regardless.

Most bugs you mention aren't really important, but this one is and
should be on the list:

> Piety can go so low that it loops back over and becomes positive.

Also this one might be:

> Killing enough cats makes the cat lord give you only 1exp when you kill
> it. (assumedly loops to negative kind of like piety)

Whether this one is bad or not depends on the number of cats required.

If it's just a theoretical problem, well, there are many counters in
ADOM that can wrap around. I assume that you can get -2 billion hit
points by drinking too many potions of extra healing, for instance. But
before that the turn counter will loop, possibly screwing things up
(e.g. food rot), etc.

Definitely on the list should be:

* Monsters fighting to their death in a blind rage are unbalanced and
buggy. For instance, they can sometimes kill themselves, which can screw
you up badly if it happens to Filk, for instance. I'm sure somebody can
contribute some more detailed horror stories here.

* Monsters with high kill count getting experience is unbalanced,
especially for monsters that are rarely generated randomly but often
summoned.

* The ingot crash bug. Vladimir has more details there.

Malte
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 4:53:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On 2005-01-11, Malte Helmert <helmert@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
> Twinge wrote:
>
>> xhoch3 wrote:
>>
>>> Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea
>>> if we had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't
>>> want to look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That would
>>> certainly speed up adom development. I know this is not a new idea
>>> and was already discussed about a year ago, so: Has somebody already
>>> started a list?
>>>
>>> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would
>>> do it, but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I
>>> might just accidentally mix a few things up)
>>
>>
<snip>

>> Killing enough cats makes the cat lord give you only 1exp when you kill
>> it. (assumedly loops to negative kind of like piety)
>
> Whether this one is bad or not depends on the number of cats required.
>
> If it's just a theoretical problem, well, there are many counters in
> ADOM that can wrap around.

Since I (as far as I know) was the first to note this, I'll chime in
here. I don't have an .flg and I didn't make an exact note but the total
number of cats killed was certainly less than 500, and I'm pretty sure
it was less than 300. I'd say that puts it well in the realm of the
practical.

njm
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 5:05:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On 2005-01-11, frobnoid <frobnoid@orders2.tmok.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:12:30 -0700, Twinge wrote:
>
>> xhoch3 wrote:
>>> Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea
>>> if we had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't
>>> want to look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That would
>>> certainly speed up adom development. I know this is not a new idea
>>> and was already discussed about a year ago, so: Has somebody already
>>> started a list?
>>>
>>> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would
>>> do it, but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I
>>> might just accidentally mix a few things up)
>>
>> Not all of these are that important, persay, but some of them you can't
>> really find out by playing so I'll mention them.
>>
>> That's all I found/remembered real quick anyway. Most of these are
>> pretty quick and easy fixes if they can be found in the sprawling mass
>> of code that is ADOM ;) 
>
> Walking into a wall makes a turn pass for the healing counter (and
> possibly others) but not for monster movement.

At least one other: herb growth. I would wager background corruption,
teleportitits, and amulets of order/chaos too, but I don't have the
time to test right at the moment. Maybe bleeding, poison, and sickness.
Ooh, and the Ghost Librarian's requirement - now that would be scummy.

njm
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 7:43:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Malte Helmert wrote:

> * The ingot crash bug. Vladimir has more details there.

Don't forget the Skilled talent crash bug too!

-- Jeff
-- aka The Eternal Newbie :) 

--------------------------------------------------------------
"Your conscience, Joey, is something that makes you take
only one cookie, when you could have taken *two*."
-- Dennis the Menace
--------------------------------------------------------------
January 12, 2005 10:26:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Eva Myers wrote:
> Malte Helmert <helmert@informatik.uni-freiburg.de>
> writes:
>> Twinge wrote:
>>> xhoch3 wrote:
>>>> Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a
>>>> very nice idea if we had a list of the most important
>>>> bugs ready, in case he doesn't want to look through
>>>> all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That would
>>>> certainly speed up adom development. I know this is
>>>> not a new idea and was already discussed about a year
>>>> ago, so: Has somebody already started a list?
>>>>
>>>> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list
>>>> together? (I would do it, but I fear I don't have
>>>> that much experience with adom, so I might just
>>>> accidentally mix a few things up)
>>> Not all of these are that important, persay, but some
>>> of them you can't
>>> really find out by playing so I'll mention them.
>>
>> As I mentioned in the other posting: So what? :-)
>
> So if you can't discover a bug by playing, it probably
> doesn't have any noticeable effect on your gameplay
> experience, and therefore isn't terribly serious?
>
> We should probably agree on some criteria for what makes
> a bug important. IMHO, all bugs which crash the game
> are important, but unfortunately searching the bug
> database for "crash" turns up 523 bugs. Bugs which
> significantly hinder the player (like the uberjackal
> bug) are also important. Exploitable bugs (like piety
> looping from negative to positive) are not quite so
> important, since anyone who wants can play the game
> without exploiting them. Eva.
>

Most definately. In order of importance (as I see it with
examples)

1) Freeze up. Completely freeze up the program or O/S.
v1.0.0 had such a bug when you continously (say 30 times)
shift up and down on a scrollable skill screen with + and
-. I am unaware of the current status on this particular
bug in recent versions.

2) Crash with signal. Less severe as it doesn't leave
memory garbage and allows continous operation of the O/S.
This is the infamous Skilled and ingot bugs. I have also
experienced problems with spell quickmarking, but lack
sufficient data to give any light.

3) In game bugs that severely hampers playability. This is
the suicide bug for instance. Filk is perhaps the most
severe as it blocks winning options. Also Keetrax (no
Herbalism), Kranach (wasting time and piety for no gold or
alignment), minotaur emperor (game score) and Griff
(blocked portal and the need to expose the elder dwarf)
are good examples of quite severe suicides. On the lower
scale high XP monsters may commit suicide and rob the
(trollish) player of much needed levels and thereby hamper
character development. Also exploitable on top of
everything else to make cats kill themselves. Not aware,
but may also trap the player in the arena if an opponent
kills him-/herself. All in all these bugs are just as
severe as crashes.

4) In game bugs that skews class/race balance. The game
itself is a result of long and enduring playtesting. I
cannot claim honours on this - I joined on 1.0.0, but
there is no doubt that the game has a very fine balance
between the capabilities of races and classes. Some of the
effects introduced in 1.1.1 to make it harder will favour
certain characters more. Most important is the
implementation of the uber-jackal effect as it can be
defeated easier by some classes/races. I have never seen
the need to specifically target summoners to this degree.
A much better solution would be to make higher level
monsters tougher in general. That would make _every_
monster deeper in the CoC harder to defeat (and MaLaKaI a
regular devil to beat). Also some of the effects to make
1.1.1 easier needs a touch with the balance stick. Most
notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared to other classes
a Bard can recieve a de facto wish for 3 talents.

5) Convenience bugs. Some things are simply inconvinient,
illogical or poorly implemented. A fated character cannot
see the class while picking talents. Not important if you
always pick Treasure Hunter as #1. Quite important if you
want to send an Archer down the archery specialist track
or a Wizard down the bookcaster specialist track
immidiately.

6) Exploits. These are bugs where the choice is left to
the player and as a result not so problematic. Piety
wrapping and repair stack blessing (which I admit to use
myself) are examples. Either these need to be declared
features or mended, but should definately not recieve the
same amount of Thomas' precious time.

7) Artifacts. Sorry, but the artifact patch and the
declaration of this as a cheat by puritans (not
namecalling, I am one myself) gives me reason to believe
the generation of artifacts need some attention. There is
no doubt about the variable power of artifacts. You curse
at an obsidian quarrel and cheer at shining silver
bracers. I believe it is good that certain artifacts are
crown only. Perhaps artifact grouping should be clearly
defined and make an old bug a feature?
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 1:21:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Nathan Miller wrote:
> On 2005-01-11, Malte Helmert <helmert@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
>
>>Twinge wrote:
>>
>>>Killing enough cats makes the cat lord give you only 1exp when you kill
>>>it. (assumedly loops to negative kind of like piety)
>>
>>Whether this one is bad or not depends on the number of cats required.
>>If it's just a theoretical problem, well, there are many counters in
>>ADOM that can wrap around.
>
> Since I (as far as I know) was the first to note this, I'll chime in
> here. I don't have an .flg and I didn't make an exact note but the total
> number of cats killed was certainly less than 500, and I'm pretty sure
> it was less than 300. I'd say that puts it well in the realm of the
> practical.

Indeed, that's one for the list then.

Malte
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 2:14:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Malte Helmert <helmert@informatik.uni-freiburg.de> writes:

> Twinge wrote:
>
> > xhoch3 wrote:
> >
> >> Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea
> >> if we had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't
> >> want to look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That would
> >> certainly speed up adom development. I know this is not a new idea
> >> and was already discussed about a year ago, so: Has somebody already
> >> started a list?
> >>
> >> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would
> >> do it, but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I
> >> might just accidentally mix a few things up)
> > Not all of these are that important, persay, but some of them you
> > can't
> > really find out by playing so I'll mention them.
>
> As I mentioned in the other posting: So what? :-)

So if you can't discover a bug by playing, it probably doesn't have
any noticeable effect on your gameplay experience, and therefore isn't
terribly serious?

We should probably agree on some criteria for what makes a bug
important. IMHO, all bugs which crash the game are important, but
unfortunately searching the bug database for "crash" turns up 523
bugs. Bugs which significantly hinder the player (like the uberjackal
bug) are also important. Exploitable bugs (like piety looping from
negative to positive) are not quite so important, since anyone who
wants can play the game without exploiting them.
Eva.

--
Eva Myers, Computer Officer, Statistical Laboratory, University of Cambridge
Email: erm1001@cam.ac.uk WWW: http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~eva/
Ignorance and deception can't save anybody. *Knowing* saves them.
January 12, 2005 2:16:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Malte Helmert wrote:
> maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
>
> [Commenting on the statement that all bugs are not
> equally important]
>
>> Most definately. In order of importance (as I see it
>> with examples)
>
> [snip]
>
> Good analysis! I'll just quote the parts where I have
> additions/corrections/other opinions.
>

Thanks. You are a skilled snipper indeed.

>> 4) In game bugs that skews class/race balance.
> [...]
>> Also some of the effects to make
>> 1.1.1 easier needs a touch with the balance stick. Most
>> notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared to other
>> classes a Bard can recieve a de facto wish for 3
>> talents.
>
> Races and classes certainly aren't balanced in the sense
> that they are all equally easy or difficult to win with.
> And that is a good thing, because it means that there
> are different challenge levels. Therefore, I do not see
> a problem with the Bard gift. When comparing it to a
> wish, also consider that seven-league boots can be
> destroyed easily, and a wish usually nets three or four
> pairs. I agree with some of the other points you are
> making here though.
>

I actually had a caveat in there in my first draft where I
said this particular subject might be more towards
personal preference, but chose to leave it out as I
intended the list to be general with mere examples. The
example(s) I chose is of course based on something I
personally find quite annoying. I agree that this is more
in nature of RFE's and not directly bugs.

The reason why I point at it as a bug is that it is my
feeling that it has had an impact on the game that was not
intended by TB when he decided to implement it. I think
the feature was intended to make the game harder in the
end and not make certain class/race combinations easier to
play. So I stand by my initial notion - that the current
implementation is faulty and should be corrected. If
possible.

It is not possible to create a complete balance between
classes and races. After all they live by their
differences (and we salute that with joy), but to a
degree there is some form of balance. Some combinations
are easy starters and hard finishers (candle trollish
healers) and some are the opposite (sword dark elven
farmers), but all in all there is a level of balance. As
stated I was not part of the development of the game, but
I have always felt the balance was there. The uber-jackal
effect has such a significant impact that any advantage
will likewise be significant and should be carefully
considered.

It may very well be a result of my own way of playing the
game. I treasure your input as you have much more
experience with the game and are definately better to make
these judgements.

I seem to get an average slightly above 2 on wishes for
7LB. So half a wish. You cannot completely guard them from
destruction, but if you avoid kicking on doors with them
on you'll be likely to have them survive until other pairs
can be recovered. Not entirely a wish, but almost. They
just don't compare to the other Heir gifts at all.

You won't hear me raise a word of anger against e.g.
hordes. Halleluja for them. Regular mind twisters. In fact
many of the new things are well implemented. I just feel
that these two items (possibly others) might need a bit of
tweaking.

>> 5) Convenience bugs. Some things are simply
>> inconvinient, illogical or poorly implemented. A fated
>> character cannot see the class while picking talents.
>> Not important if you always pick Treasure Hunter as #1.
>> Quite important if you want to send an Archer down the
>> archery specialist track or a Wizard down the
>> bookcaster specialist track immidiately.
>
> You can see race and class before choosing talents;
>
> "You are born to be a male human. [...] You are now a
> fully learned wizard." ...
> "Choose a talent (1 of 1)".
>

Hmmm. Not the best of examples either I guess :) .

>> 7) Artifacts. Sorry, but the artifact patch and the
>> declaration of this as a cheat by puritans (not
>> namecalling, I am one myself) gives me reason to
>> believe the generation of artifacts need some
>> attention. There is no doubt about the variable power
>> of artifacts. You curse at an obsidian quarrel and
>> cheer at shining silver bracers. I believe it is good
>> that certain artifacts are crown only. Perhaps artifact
>> grouping should be clearly defined and make an old bug
>> a feature?
>
> To the best of my knowledge, it *is* intentional that
> some artifacts are only available as crowning gift. I
> think TB has stated that at some time. As far as I know,
> ToGu's patch does not make all crowning-only artifacts
> available as regular artifacts, only some of them.
>

I have seen a transcript from IRC where the matter is
discussed. I think it was on gamma14. Someone asked TB why
Celestrix hadn't been seen for a while and wether it was
intentional. I think TB replied that all non-guaranteed
artifacts ought to have equal chance of generation.
Naturally I completely lack the discussions in between,
but it is likewise my impression that it ended up with
being virtue of necessity - that the bug only improved the
game and was left as a feature. ToGu's fix definately
allows random generation of Vanquisher last time I
checked, which is why I consider it bordering a cheat. An
elven Priest with Vanquisher and Sun's Messenger is...
well... nuts. I am actually perfectly content with things
the way they are. The best weapons are still crown or
guaranteed and hard to get (Grod, Vanq, Suns, AotME and
TotRR) and the best armours are randomly generated or
fairly easy to obtain. This seems to give a good balance
somehow. It is a bug in nature however, and from my point
of view it might be nice to bring the matter up with TB
which is why I mentioned it. At the absolutely lowest
priority :D .

---

As a final word: Do we have a line of communication with
TB and if not can such a thing be established. I can see
how tiresome it can be for TB to see 400 entries in the
bug database all titled "Skilled talent crash teh game".
It would be much better to recieve a solid summary from
r.g.r.a and have the same person give a brief feed-back.
Malte, you would be ideal in such a role. You are
well-spoken, experienced and also German (sometimes it's
just nicer to use your native tongue). Just something to
consider.
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 3:16:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Giving the certain amulet to certain dying character sometimes
crashes the game.
--
Signatures are for them amateurs.
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 4:22:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
> Malte Helmert wrote:
>
>>maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
>>> Also some of the effects to make 1.1.1 easier needs a touch with
>>> the balance stick. Most notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared
>>> to other classes a Bard can recieve a de facto wish for 3
>>> talents.
>>
>> Races and classes certainly aren't balanced in the sense that they
>> are all equally easy or difficult to win with. And that is a good
>> thing, because it means that there are different challenge levels.
>> Therefore, I do not see a problem with the Bard gift. When
>> comparing it to a wish, also consider that seven-league boots can
>> be destroyed easily, and a wish usually nets three or four pairs. I
>> agree with some of the other points you are making here though.
>>
>
> I seem to get an average slightly above 2 on wishes for 7LB. So half
> a wish. You cannot completely guard them from destruction, but if you
> avoid kicking on doors with them on you'll be likely to have them
> survive until other pairs can be recovered. Not entirely a wish, but
> almost. They just don't compare to the other Heir gifts at all.

1/3 of a wish. You get 2d2 items when you wish for most stuff, which is
an average of 3.
It is a rather powerful heir gift, thought it does take 3 _starting_
talents. I personally think it's not particularily overpowered, and the
worst of the other heir gifts should simply be upgraded a bit. I doubt
stuff like this will ever be looked at anyway, though; JADE is where
Thomas' interess lie now. Most items that would fall under RFE are
probably not ever going to be implemented, realistically.

> It is not possible to create a complete balance between classes and
> races. After all they live by their differences (and we salute that
> with joy), but to a degree there is some form of balance. Some
> combinations are easy starters and hard finishers (candle trollish
> healers) and some are the opposite (sword dark elven farmers), but
> all in all there is a level of balance. As stated I was not part of
> the development of the game, but I have always felt the balance was
> there. The uber-jackal effect has such a significant impact that any
> advantage will likewise be significant and should be carefully
> considered.

Indeed, the races and classes are plenty balanced. Everything has some
advantage, even if that advantage is being more of a challenge for
experienced players :p 

>> So if you can't discover a bug by playing, it probably doesn't have
>> any noticeable effect on your gameplay experience, and therefore
>> isn't terribly serious?

Not nessicarily as serious, but still bugs that should be fixed (and are
often very easy to fix) anyway. In addition, with some of this stuff,
Thomas might not even _know_ there is a bug at all (Unicorn having
reverse effect for example).

For some of the more minor bugs, it's basically a balance of the effect
versus how easy it is (or should be) to fix. For the rift and unicorn
bugs, it should be a simple matter of changing a single number and
shouldn't take a lot of effort at all, and both (especially unicorn) do
have some actual impact on the game. Other misc. junk (you can use
ventriloquism while muted) just isn't worth the bother. Of course, where
exactly the line is drawn is up to debate...

>>> 7) Artifacts. Sorry, but the artifact patch and the declaration
>>> of this as a cheat by puritans (not namecalling, I am one myself)
>>> gives me reason to believe the generation of artifacts need some
>>> attention. There is no doubt about the variable power of
>>> artifacts. You curse at an obsidian quarrel and cheer at shining
>>> silver bracers. I believe it is good that certain artifacts are
>>> crown only. Perhaps artifact grouping should be clearly defined
>>> and make an old bug a feature?
>>
>> To the best of my knowledge, it *is* intentional that some
>> artifacts are only available as crowning gift. I think TB has
>> stated that at some time. As far as I know, ToGu's patch does not
>> make all crowning-only artifacts available as regular artifacts,
>> only some of them.
>>
>
> I have seen a transcript from IRC where the matter is discussed. I
> think it was on gamma14. Someone asked TB why Celestrix hadn't been
> seen for a while and wether it was intentional. I think TB replied
> that all non-guaranteed artifacts ought to have equal chance of
> generation. Naturally I completely lack the discussions in between,
> but it is likewise my impression that it ended up with being virtue
> of necessity - that the bug only improved the game and was left as a
> feature. ToGu's fix definately allows random generation of Vanquisher
> last time I checked, which is why I consider it bordering a cheat. An
> elven Priest with Vanquisher and Sun's Messenger is... well... nuts.
> I am actually perfectly content with things the way they are. The
> best weapons are still crown or guaranteed and hard to get (Grod,
> Vanq, Suns, AotME and TotRR) and the best armours are randomly
> generated or fairly easy to obtain. This seems to give a good balance
> somehow. It is a bug in nature however, and from my point of view it
> might be nice to bring the matter up with TB which is why I mentioned
> it. At the absolutely lowest priority :D .

It's fine to have some artifacts only available through crowning, but I
think at least some of them only available that way should be available
as random drops as well.

A small side note, one artifact is more common the the rest (by creation
probability anyway, I forget what it's danger level was): Wyrmlance.

> Most important is the implementation of the uber-jackal effect as it
> can be defeated easier by some classes/races. I have never seen the
> need to specifically target summoners to this degree. A much better
> solution would be to make higher level monsters tougher in general.
> That would make _every_ monster deeper in the CoC harder to defeat
> (and MaLaKaI a regular devil to beat).

Not really a better solution at all, because the uber-jackal effect was
put into place to curb the scumming of stuff in general, not just the
tougher stuff. There are 2 reasons for this effect actually being a
problem to the normal player, neither of which (assumedly) were taken
into account when the idea was thought up. Since the rate at which
monsters become super powerful is directly based on thier creation
probability, anything that would cause more of them to exsist
(automatically placed such as chaos servants, or summoned like jackals)
than the creation probability indicates causes problems. So, to fix this
problem, these factors need to be accounted for in some way; the easiest
way to fix the problem but still leave the effect in place would be to
change the creation probabilities of jackals, spiders, chaos servants,
and wolves up a bit. This is a mediocre fix since it affects the game
balance slightly, but it's the only _easy_ way I can think of that
wouldn't actually have to add anything new (which Thomas didn't want to
do at all anymore for ADOM, I've heard), such as a flag for monsters
that can be summoned and thus should have a weakened effect of the power-up.

> 1)Bugs causing the game to freeze
> 2)Bugs causing the game to crash (skilled, ignots, ...)
> 3)Severe Bugs (Berferk, Uber-Jackal(to some degree), ...)
> 4)Slight Bugs (Starsign problem, rift, artifacts, ...)
> 5)Bugs used to cheat (Piety blessing, repair broken stacks, ...)

This is a pretty good ranking list; a small note is that some crash
bugs can be recovered from and the character lives on, and others they
cannot (the latter obviously being more serious).


> As a final word: Do we have a line of communication with TB and if
> not can such a thing be established. I can see how tiresome it can be
> for TB to see 400 entries in the bug database all titled "Skilled
> talent crash teh game". It would be much better to recieve a solid
> summary from r.g.r.a and have the same person give a brief feed-back.
> Malte, you would be ideal in such a role. You are well-spoken,
> experienced and also German (sometimes it's just nicer to use your
> native tongue). Just something to consider.

Something I've been talking about for a while. I don't really care the
means (who is the spokesman or the method of contact doesn't make a ton
of differance to me), but we do need _some_ way to talk to Thomas and
hopefully get a final, official, bug-fixed version of ADOM out before he
puts it in the closet forever =) If nothing else, we can try snail mail
after we get a nice organized list. The bug database is simply not going
to be a good alternative here at all.
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 4:25:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:26:57 -0800, maddog wrote:

> 4) In game bugs that skews class/race balance. The game
> 1.1.1 easier needs a touch with the balance stick. Most
> notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared to other classes
> a Bard can recieve a de facto wish for 3 talents.

Perhaps its not the gift selection but the item itself which needs slight
nerfing?

There should be some really nice, rare items floating around. However, 7LB
an EXTREMELY nice item. Giving its wearer a 10 or 15% XP penalty
(reflecting the effective speedup, but not an actual change to speed)
would still make it a very nice item, but not the point where its so
overpowering.

OTOH, My comments may just be sour grapes... my last good character died
in the Mana Temple without ever finding a wish or 7LB, and my current
character is now at the Air Temple without a wish or 7LB (despite some
serious time spent trying to find one!)
January 12, 2005 6:07:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Malte Helmert wrote:
> maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
>> Malte Helmert wrote:
>>> maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
>>>
>>>> 4) In game bugs that skews class/race balance.
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> Also some of the effects to make
>>>> 1.1.1 easier needs a touch with the balance stick.
>>>> Most notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared to
>>>> other classes a Bard can recieve a de facto wish for
>>>> 3 talents.
>
> [snip]
>
>> The reason why I point at it as a bug is that it is my
>> feeling that it has had an impact on the game that was
>> not intended by TB when he decided to implement it. I
>> think the feature was intended to make the game harder
>> in the end and not make certain class/race combinations
>> easier to play. So I stand by my initial notion - that
>> the current implementation is faulty and should be
>> corrected. If possible.
>
> My take on Heir gifts is that they do not affect the
> playing experience for the other classes. If Bards
> received a worse gift, there'd be no benefit for
> non-Bards. Personally, I wouldn't play a bard with that
> talent except under special circumstances (e.g. a
> challenge game to complete the game quickly), so it is
> my choice whether or not I want to be "spoiled" by
> seven-league boots.

Hmm. Yes. It is 3 talents after all. Could be well
invested elsewhere. Perhaps everybody should have them as
heir?

> I wholeheartedly agree with your other example in this
> category. Uber-jackals certainly skew the game balance
> in favour of classes with good missile, and preferably
> beam attacks, who can take out summoners quickly much
> more easily. This makes playing more melee-oriented
> classes much more painful to play, which is a bad thing
> to me.
>

Indeed. There are so many ways to defeat them with spells.
Even in 1.0.0. I often use Calm Monster in the Mana Temple
to :swap forward and let them fight it out between
themselves behind me. On demand invisibility and far
reaching bolts also help you curb the summoners. A
beastfighter on the other hand have to run like hell from
a spider.

>> You won't hear me raise a word of anger against e.g.
>> hordes. Halleluja for them. Regular mind twisters. In
>> fact many of the new things are well implemented. I
>> just feel that these two items (possibly others) might
>> need a bit of tweaking.
>
> Hordes have their problems too. Ever met a horde of
> white unicorns with a crowned lawful PC? I think that's
> a silly situation.
>

You'd find me at the end of a rope if it happened to an
ULE candidate. However tension rooms also have similar
problems - all monsters are hostile pr. default. I have
had L+ uncrown from a maniac blink dog in a mixed tension
room. I have never seen a unicorn tension room however.
The situation would be difficult at best. Don't think they
are vulnerable to a banshee. Only thing I can think of is
Calm Monster or (if that isn't working or unavailable)
Scare Monster/offer peace. Shouldn't be necessary. The
whole scenario contradicts the behaviour of the rest of
the game.

>>> To the best of my knowledge, it *is* intentional that
>>> some artifacts are only available as crowning gift.
>>
>> I have seen a transcript from IRC where the matter is
>> discussed. I think it was on gamma14. Someone asked TB
>> why Celestrix hadn't been seen for a while and wether
>> it was intentional. I think TB replied that all
>> non-guaranteed artifacts ought to have equal chance of
>> generation.
>
> I think you are misremembering, or at least reading more
> into the text than I can see. I have read that IRC log a
> couple of times in the past. For reference, you can find
> it here:
>
> http://www.students.tut.fi/~suvanto2/adom/TB.txt
>

[21:57] <ADOM-TB2> Ok, about the girdle Celestrix:
actually you can't find all the artifacts in each game. A
couple of them are deselected each time to play so that
they are unavailable in the game. The girdle can be found
but it should be rare.

This would be the line I have focussed on. As I read it
some artifacts are _randomly_ deselected at every game
leaving the rest to be available for random generation.
Randomly is underlined as that is the part I have read
into it.

>> As a final word: Do we have a line of communication
>> with TB and if not can such a thing be established. I
>> can see how tiresome it can be for TB to see 400
>> entries in the bug database all titled "Skilled talent
>> crash teh game". It would be much better to recieve a
>> solid summary from r.g.r.a and have the same person
>> give a brief feed-back. Malte, you would be ideal in
>> such a role. You are well-spoken, experienced and also
>> German (sometimes it's just nicer to use your native
>> tongue). Just something to consider.
>
> If we as a group can agree on what we would consider
> important for 1.1.2 (or 1.2.0, even), I'd certainly be
> willing to send a summarizing e-mail to Thomas. In the
> past, he has usually answered messages of that kind,
> although it can take time in busy periods.
>

That would be good.
January 12, 2005 7:47:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Malte Helmert wrote:
> maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
>> Malte Helmert wrote:
>>
>>> Hordes have their problems too. Ever met a horde of
>>> white unicorns with a crowned lawful PC? I think
>>> that's a silly situation.
>>
>> You'd find me at the end of a rope if it happened to an
>> ULE candidate. However tension rooms also have similar
>> problems - all monsters are hostile pr. default. I have
>> had L+ uncrown from a maniac blink dog in a mixed
>> tension room. I have never seen a unicorn tension room
>> however.
>
> That's the point; they don't exist. The set of possible
> tension rooms is fixed, and unicorns and blink dogs can
> only occur in mixed ones, and thus very rarely and not
> in large number. However, people *have* encountered
> hordes of about 20 hostile white unicorns, and killing a
> white unicorn has a much, much worse effect on alignment
> than killing a blink dog. It will make you a fallen
> champion immediately.
>
> That being said, I agree that this issue should better
> be corrected for tension rooms as well.
>

I think we agree fully then. Monsters that would normally
be neutral should be so in hordes/tensions. Lawfuls for
lawfuls, cats for wearers of RotMC, animals for druids
etc.

>> [21:57] <ADOM-TB2> Ok, about the girdle Celestrix:
>> actually you can't find all the artifacts in each game.
>> A couple of them are deselected each time to play so
>> that they are unavailable in the game. The girdle can
>> be found but it should be rare.
>>
>> This would be the line I have focussed on. As I read it
>> some artifacts are _randomly_ deselected at every game
>> leaving the rest to be available for random generation.
>> Randomly is underlined as that is the part I have read
>> into it.
>
> I found and read that sentence too, but I don't think
> that it implies that *all* artifacts should be randomly
> available. What about Needle? Sting? The Orbs? Clearly,
> there should be exceptions, and not all of these are
> dealt with in a sensible way by the patch (ToGu has
> written that Big Punch can be randomly generated in the
> patched version).
>

Okay, I think I understand now and that was actually also
what I meant (pardons for failing to make that clear).
Guaranteed artifacts needs to be excluded for sure.
Several of them are ultra-powerful. AotME and TotRR are
perhaps the most powerful weapons if only for the sheer
base damage. Definately on line with Vanquisher. Also
artifacts are per definition unique. If a guaranteed
artifact can be found at random it can technically be
found twice. That Big Punch can be found twice defeats the
purpose of the patch - it makes it a contradiction of
itself.

As I see it artifacts should be in groups.

1) Guaranteed artifacts that cannot be found at random.

2) A selection of medium potency artifacts primarily for
first post/precrown to eliminate the extreme chance of
this event. At creation one of these should be selected
and the remainder included for selection in 4)

3) A selection of high potency artifacts _solely_ for
crowning. Crowning should be significant. I don't recall
crowning with an artifact I could use at least in winning
games. One of these should be selected at creation and the
remainder eliminated from the game.

4) A selection of high, medium and low potency artifacts
for random generation. The set number of 15 selected at
character creation is good. 14 should be selected here,
and in the unlikely event these have all been generated
the one selected in 2) will be eligible for random
generation as well.

The current way things work is close to fullfilling this
making it a minor issue. It varies between classes. The
crowning gift will most likely be significant for a
Barbarian, but what about a Thief?
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 8:40:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:

[Commenting on the statement that all bugs are not equally important]

> Most definately. In order of importance (as I see it with
> examples)

[snip]

Good analysis! I'll just quote the parts where I have
additions/corrections/other opinions.

> 4) In game bugs that skews class/race balance.
[...]
> Also some of the effects to make
> 1.1.1 easier needs a touch with the balance stick. Most
> notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared to other classes
> a Bard can recieve a de facto wish for 3 talents.

Races and classes certainly aren't balanced in the sense that they are
all equally easy or difficult to win with. And that is a good thing,
because it means that there are different challenge levels. Therefore, I
do not see a problem with the Bard gift. When comparing it to a wish,
also consider that seven-league boots can be destroyed easily, and a
wish usually nets three or four pairs. I agree with some of the other
points you are making here though.

> 5) Convenience bugs. Some things are simply inconvinient,
> illogical or poorly implemented. A fated character cannot
> see the class while picking talents. Not important if you
> always pick Treasure Hunter as #1. Quite important if you
> want to send an Archer down the archery specialist track
> or a Wizard down the bookcaster specialist track
> immidiately.

You can see race and class before choosing talents;

"You are born to be a male human. [...] You are now a fully learned wizard."
....
"Choose a talent (1 of 1)".

> 7) Artifacts. Sorry, but the artifact patch and the
> declaration of this as a cheat by puritans (not
> namecalling, I am one myself) gives me reason to believe
> the generation of artifacts need some attention. There is
> no doubt about the variable power of artifacts. You curse
> at an obsidian quarrel and cheer at shining silver
> bracers. I believe it is good that certain artifacts are
> crown only. Perhaps artifact grouping should be clearly
> defined and make an old bug a feature?

To the best of my knowledge, it *is* intentional that some artifacts are
only available as crowning gift. I think TB has stated that at some
time. As far as I know, ToGu's patch does not make all crowning-only
artifacts available as regular artifacts, only some of them.

Malte
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 9:09:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

maddog wrote:

>
> Most definately. In order of importance (as I see it with
> examples)
>
> 1) Freeze up. Completely freeze up the program or O/S.
>
> 2) Crash with signal.
>
> 3) In game bugs that severely hampers playability.
>
> 4) In game bugs that skews class/race balance. The game
> itself is a result of long and enduring playtesting. I
> cannot claim honours on this - I joined on 1.0.0, but
> there is no doubt that the game has a very fine balance
> between the capabilities of races and classes. Some of the
> effects introduced in 1.1.1 to make it harder will favour
> certain characters more. Most important is the
> implementation of the uber-jackal effect as it can be
> defeated easier by some classes/races. I have never seen
> the need to specifically target summoners to this degree.
> A much better solution would be to make higher level
> monsters tougher in general. That would make _every_
> monster deeper in the CoC harder to defeat (and MaLaKaI a
> regular devil to beat). Also some of the effects to make
> 1.1.1 easier needs a touch with the balance stick. Most
> notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared to other classes
> a Bard can recieve a de facto wish for 3 talents.
>
> 5) Convenience bugs.
>
> 6) Exploits.
>
> 7) Artifacts.
>
This was roughly what I thought about too. But I don't like number 4 that
much, it would probably lead to everybody posting something he doesn't
like about one class or another. That's more RFE-kindish stuff, same with
number 5.
And I don't think there are that much bugs concerning artifacts (are
there?), so it'd be enough if we listed them elsewhere.
This is my proposal:

1)Bugs causing the game to freeze
2)Bugs causing the game to crash (skilled, ...)
3)Severe Bugs (Berferk, Uber-Jackal(to some degree), ...)
4)Slight Bugs (Starsign problem, rift, artifacts, ...)
5)Bugs used to cheat (Piety blessing, repair broken stacks, ...)

--
The best way to make a fire with two sticks is to make sure one of them is
a match.
-- Will Rogers
January 12, 2005 11:40:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

frobnoid wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 07:26:57 -0800, maddog wrote:
>
>> 4) In game bugs that skews class/race balance. The game
>> 1.1.1 easier needs a touch with the balance stick. Most
>> notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared to other classes
>> a Bard can recieve a de facto wish for 3 talents.
>
> Perhaps its not the gift selection but the item itself which needs
> slight nerfing?
>
> There should be some really nice, rare items floating around.
> However, 7LB an EXTREMELY nice item. Giving its wearer a 10 or 15% XP
> penalty (reflecting the effective speedup, but not an actual change
> to speed) would still make it a very nice item, but not the point
> where its so overpowering.
>
> OTOH, My comments may just be sour grapes... my last good character
> died in the Mana Temple without ever finding a wish or 7LB, and my
> current character is now at the Air Temple without a wish or 7LB
> (despite some serious time spent trying to find one!)

I'd vote for increased food consumption, similar to the way that
Invisibility items work.

But then, that brings up another subjective point - imo, Invisibility should
never be acquired as an intrinsic (it's too powerful as such, and if it had
the food consumption, it would be fatal, but without it, its borderline
broken, just like 7LB).

The 7LB are staggeringly powerful for two reasons - the first is that the
ability to evade any/all/most encounters is the ability to survive in Adom.
Blessed 7LB let you do this easily. On top of that, they reduce outdoor
travel times greatly, allowing you more time to muck around before chaos
corruption is increased. The second is that melee combat in Adom is simply
far too dangerous in comparison to ranged or spellcasting.
Berserking/experienced monsters exacerbate this issue. Why would I ever
close to melee with a creature that can corrupt, paralyze, blind, poison,
weaken, drain, critical hit, and chew on me when I could stay at range and
slaughter it easily?

That second can't really be fixed without significant feature additions (new
monsters with stronger ranged attacks, old monsters getting tuned up,
creatures using items, etc), so I doubt it's going to change.

Anyway, that's all tangental. The first suggestion would be my vote on 7LBs.
Heavily increased food consumption
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 11:40:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:40:40 -0500, Marcus wrote:

> I'd vote for increased food consumption, similar to the way that
> Invisibility items work.

I had considered that too, but forgot to post it!

> But then, that brings up another subjective point - imo, Invisibility should
> never be acquired as an intrinsic (it's too powerful as such, and if it had
> the food consumption, it would be fatal, but without it, its borderline
> broken, just like 7LB).

Its VERY hard to get, and its a pain in the butt when you do, as potions
of visibility aren't very common (unless there's another way to become
visible I'm not aware of)
Anonymous
January 12, 2005 11:48:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
> Malte Helmert wrote:
>
>>maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
>>
>>>4) In game bugs that skews class/race balance.
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>>Also some of the effects to make
>>>1.1.1 easier needs a touch with the balance stick. Most
>>>notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared to other
>>>classes a Bard can recieve a de facto wish for 3
>>>talents.

[snip]

> The reason why I point at it as a bug is that it is my
> feeling that it has had an impact on the game that was not
> intended by TB when he decided to implement it. I think
> the feature was intended to make the game harder in the
> end and not make certain class/race combinations easier to
> play. So I stand by my initial notion - that the current
> implementation is faulty and should be corrected. If
> possible.

My take on Heir gifts is that they do not affect the playing experience
for the other classes. If Bards received a worse gift, there'd be no
benefit for non-Bards. Personally, I wouldn't play a bard with that
talent except under special circumstances (e.g. a challenge game to
complete the game quickly), so it is my choice whether or not I want to
be "spoiled" by seven-league boots.

I wholeheartedly agree with your other example in this category.
Uber-jackals certainly skew the game balance in favour of classes with
good missile, and preferably beam attacks, who can take out summoners
quickly much more easily. This makes playing more melee-oriented classes
much more painful to play, which is a bad thing to me.

> You won't hear me raise a word of anger against e.g.
> hordes. Halleluja for them. Regular mind twisters. In fact
> many of the new things are well implemented. I just feel
> that these two items (possibly others) might need a bit of
> tweaking.

Hordes have their problems too. Ever met a horde of white unicorns with
a crowned lawful PC? I think that's a silly situation.

>>To the best of my knowledge, it *is* intentional that
>>some artifacts are only available as crowning gift.
>
> I have seen a transcript from IRC where the matter is
> discussed. I think it was on gamma14. Someone asked TB why
> Celestrix hadn't been seen for a while and wether it was
> intentional. I think TB replied that all non-guaranteed
> artifacts ought to have equal chance of generation.

I think you are misremembering, or at least reading more into the text
than I can see. I have read that IRC log a couple of times in the past.
For reference, you can find it here:

http://www.students.tut.fi/~suvanto2/adom/TB.txt

> As a final word: Do we have a line of communication with
> TB and if not can such a thing be established. I can see
> how tiresome it can be for TB to see 400 entries in the
> bug database all titled "Skilled talent crash teh game".
> It would be much better to recieve a solid summary from
> r.g.r.a and have the same person give a brief feed-back.
> Malte, you would be ideal in such a role. You are
> well-spoken, experienced and also German (sometimes it's
> just nicer to use your native tongue). Just something to
> consider.

If we as a group can agree on what we would consider important for 1.1.2
(or 1.2.0, even), I'd certainly be willing to send a summarizing e-mail
to Thomas. In the past, he has usually answered messages of that kind,
although it can take time in busy periods.

Malte
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 1:04:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Wed Twinge wrote:

[snipped]

>>> So if you can't discover a bug by playing, it probably doesn't have
>>> any noticeable effect on your gameplay experience, and therefore
>>> isn't terribly serious?
>
> Not nessicarily as serious, but still bugs that should be fixed (and are
> often very easy to fix) anyway. In addition, with some of this stuff,
> Thomas might not even _know_ there is a bug at all (Unicorn having
> reverse effect for example).
>
> For some of the more minor bugs, it's basically a balance of the effect
> versus how easy it is (or should be) to fix. For the rift and unicorn
> bugs, it should be a simple matter of changing a single number and
> shouldn't take a lot of effort at all, and both (especially unicorn) do
> have some actual impact on the game. Other misc. junk (you can use
> ventriloquism while muted) just isn't worth the bother. Of course, where
> exactly the line is drawn is up to debate...

Pah! Using ventriloquism while muted. That's no bug at all, I looked up
ventriloquist and in German it is "someone who speaks with his stomach",
so what effect does being muted have to your stomach?
But you brought up a serious problem, I think this can only be solved by
some kind of voting system. Post the bug on the newsgroup, if there are
more people for putting it on the list, put it on, otherwise leave it out.
After a while everybody will get a feeling for what is to be left out and
what is to be put on the list.

>> Most important is the implementation of the uber-jackal effect as it
>> can be defeated easier by some classes/races. I have never seen the
>> need to specifically target summoners to this degree. A much better
>> solution would be to make higher level monsters tougher in general.
>> That would make _every_ monster deeper in the CoC harder to defeat
>> (and MaLaKaI a regular devil to beat).
>
> Not really a better solution at all, because the uber-jackal effect was
> put into place to curb the scumming of stuff in general, not just the
> tougher stuff. There are 2 reasons for this effect actually being a
> problem to the normal player, neither of which (assumedly) were taken
> into account when the idea was thought up. Since the rate at which
> monsters become super powerful is directly based on thier creation
> probability, anything that would cause more of them to exsist
> (automatically placed such as chaos servants, or summoned like jackals)
> than the creation probability indicates causes problems. So, to fix this
> problem, these factors need to be accounted for in some way; the easiest
> way to fix the problem but still leave the effect in place would be to
> change the creation probabilities of jackals, spiders, chaos servants,
> and wolves up a bit. This is a mediocre fix since it affects the game
> balance slightly, but it's the only _easy_ way I can think of that
> wouldn't actually have to add anything new (which Thomas didn't want to
> do at all anymore for ADOM, I've heard), such as a flag for monsters
> that can be summoned and thus should have a weakened effect of the
> power-up.

Maybe one could insert a check, so that the strength of the monsters is
limited to a certain value, on the other hand this would just complicate
the code even more.

>> 1)Bugs causing the game to freeze 2)Bugs causing the game to crash
>> (skilled, ignots, ...) 3)Severe Bugs (Berferk, Uber-Jackal(to some
>> degree), ...)
>> 4)Slight Bugs (Starsign problem, rift, artifacts, ...) 5)Bugs used to
>> cheat (Piety blessing, repair broken stacks, ...)
>
> This is a pretty good ranking list; a small note is that some crash
> bugs can be recovered from and the character lives on.

I was never "lucky" enough to see one of those, everytime adom crashed my
character was lost, so obviously I didn't know about that.

>> As a final word: Do we have a line of communication with TB and if
>> not can such a thing be established. I can see how tiresome it can be
>> for TB to see 400 entries in the bug database all titled "Skilled
>> talent crash teh game". It would be much better to recieve a solid
>> summary from r.g.r.a and have the same person give a brief feed-back.
>> Malte, you would be ideal in such a role. You are well-spoken,
>> experienced and also German (sometimes it's just nicer to use your
>> native tongue). Just something to consider.
>
> Something I've been talking about for a while. I don't really care the
> means (who is the spokesman or the method of contact doesn't make a ton
> of differance to me), but we do need _some_ way to talk to Thomas and
> hopefully get a final, official, bug-fixed version of ADOM out before he
> puts it in the closet forever =) If nothing else, we can try snail mail
> after we get a nice organized list. The bug database is simply not going
> to be a good alternative here at all.

Snail mail isn't that bad after all. It only takes a day if we send it
from Germany and it's better to have some piece of paper anyway, you can
strike through bugs taken care of, you can't lose it because some virus
formatted your hard disk, you don't have to have to use a pc to read it
and you can use it for heating if you haven't paid your bills.
I do think we should snail mail him a copy, just to make sure he has one.
I could do that (once we have the list put together anyway).

Or we just organise a free beer party in the town he is living in, every
German would surely come there, so he has to turn up eventually :-)

--
There's an old proverb that says just about whatever you want it to.
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 3:13:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Twinge wrote:
>
> [...] it's the only _easy_ way I can think of that
> wouldn't actually have to add anything new (which Thomas didn't want to
> do at all anymore for ADOM, I've heard), [...]

I wonder where you've heard that? The official news from www.adom.de is
that Thomas plans to set aside one evening per week for working on ADOM.
I have not seen anything indicating what you're saying.

Quite a few people on r.g.r.development have spread false rumours that
ADOM is officially dead. This is not good for the community, so I
wouldn't make such a statement unless I could support it with facts.
Sorry if I sound harsh.

Malte
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 3:16:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

xhoch3 wrote:

> Or we just organise a free beer party in the town he is living in,
> every German would surely come there, so he has to turn up eventually :-)

The problem with that plan is that Gelsenkirchen has about 300,000
inhabitants. With that amount of beer money, we could easily finance
Thomas to work on ADOM full-time for a couple of years. :-)

Malte
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 3:48:22 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:

> Malte Helmert wrote:
>
>>Hordes have their problems too. Ever met a horde of
>>white unicorns with a crowned lawful PC? I think that's
>>a silly situation.
>
> You'd find me at the end of a rope if it happened to an
> ULE candidate. However tension rooms also have similar
> problems - all monsters are hostile pr. default. I have
> had L+ uncrown from a maniac blink dog in a mixed tension
> room. I have never seen a unicorn tension room however.

That's the point; they don't exist. The set of possible tension rooms is
fixed, and unicorns and blink dogs can only occur in mixed ones, and
thus very rarely and not in large number. However, people *have*
encountered hordes of about 20 hostile white unicorns, and killing a
white unicorn has a much, much worse effect on alignment than killing a
blink dog. It will make you a fallen champion immediately.

That being said, I agree that this issue should better be corrected for
tension rooms as well.

> [21:57] <ADOM-TB2> Ok, about the girdle Celestrix:
> actually you can't find all the artifacts in each game. A
> couple of them are deselected each time to play so that
> they are unavailable in the game. The girdle can be found
> but it should be rare.
>
> This would be the line I have focussed on. As I read it
> some artifacts are _randomly_ deselected at every game
> leaving the rest to be available for random generation.
> Randomly is underlined as that is the part I have read
> into it.

I found and read that sentence too, but I don't think that it implies
that *all* artifacts should be randomly available. What about Needle?
Sting? The Orbs? Clearly, there should be exceptions, and not all of
these are dealt with in a sensible way by the patch (ToGu has written
that Big Punch can be randomly generated in the patched version).

Malte
January 13, 2005 5:49:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

The Beerslayer wrote:
> maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
>
>> I think we agree fully then. Monsters that would
>> normally be neutral should be so in hordes/tensions.
>> Lawfuls for lawfuls, cats for wearers of RotMC, animals
>> for druids etc.
>
> For whatever it's worth, I'm not 100% sure I agree fully
> with this.
>
> Imagine it from the white unicorn/blink dog's
> perspective. You've just spent the last
> Corellius-knows-how-many years trapped in a small locked
> room with everything from troll berserkers to crystal
> statues to various assorted rats, snakes, orcs, goblins,
> swordsmen, etc., most of whom you're not likely to take
> up with socially in better circumstances. Your life is
> one of constant struggle, fighting, and general
> unpleasantness.
>

Being human and neither unicorn nor blink dog makes it
hard for me to imagine. The game helps me in this respect.
The blink dog and unicorn seems to feel my good intentions
and continue to battle with evil instead. That is the game
mechanics and the logic it works by.

> One day, a dirty, scruffy, heavily armored and heavily
> armed adventurer shows up in the room, who looking like
> he's spoiling for a fight, and who immediately begins
> hacking and slashing at whatever's within reach.
>
> Why would you, the unicorn, automatically assume this
> newcomer is co-aligned with yourself, and remain neutral
> toward him? That doesn't sound like an attitude
> conducive to survival, and you are obviously
> survival-oriented, since you're still alive after all
> this time.
>

As lawful you are NOT survival oriented in the sense that
you would not kill anything that walks just to live. That
would be neutral. Any lawful (and to that end also a
unicorn) face severe consequences from slaying another
lawful.

> Now, cats... cats are another story. If the PC is
> wearing the RotMC, its influence would and should be
> felt immediately. I'd expect cats to recognize the
> "ringbearer" and react accordingly.

.... and as lawful you recognize the one who will stop the
intrusion of ChAoS...?
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 9:34:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:

> I think we agree fully then. Monsters that would normally
> be neutral should be so in hordes/tensions. Lawfuls for
> lawfuls, cats for wearers of RotMC, animals for druids
> etc.

For whatever it's worth, I'm not 100% sure I agree fully with this.

Imagine it from the white unicorn/blink dog's perspective. You've just
spent the last Corellius-knows-how-many years trapped in a small locked
room with everything from troll berserkers to crystal statues to various
assorted rats, snakes, orcs, goblins, swordsmen, etc., most of whom you're
not likely to take up with socially in better circumstances. Your life is
one of constant struggle, fighting, and general unpleasantness.

One day, a dirty, scruffy, heavily armored and heavily armed adventurer
shows up in the room, who looking like he's spoiling for a fight, and who
immediately begins hacking and slashing at whatever's within reach.

Why would you, the unicorn, automatically assume this newcomer is
co-aligned with yourself, and remain neutral toward him? That doesn't
sound like an attitude conducive to survival, and you are obviously
survival-oriented, since you're still alive after all this time.

Now, cats... cats are another story. If the PC is wearing the RotMC, its
influence would and should be felt immediately. I'd expect cats to
recognize the "ringbearer" and react accordingly.

-- Jeff
-- aka The Eternal Newbie :) 

---------------------------------------------------------------
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted
to a profoundly sick society. -- Krishnamurti
---------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 12:05:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Twinge wrote:

> xhoch3 wrote:

Check your attributions; many of the things you quote were said by
somebody else.

>> Snail mail isn't that bad after all. It only takes a day if we send
>> it from Germany and it's better to have some piece of paper anyway,
>> you can strike through bugs taken care of, you can't lose it because
>> some virus formatted your hard disk, you don't have to have to use a
>> pc to read it and you can use it for heating if you haven't paid
>> your bills. I do think we should snail mail him a copy, just to make
>> sure he has one. I could do that (once we have the list put together
>> anyway).
>
> Yes; semi-simultaneous snail mail and email probably.

Honestly, that seems like too much pestering to me. Sending an e-mail
should be enough. If Thomas does not react, it is his choice.

>>> [...] it's the only _easy_ way I can think of that wouldn't actually
>>> have to add anything new (which Thomas didn't want to do at all
>>> anymore for ADOM, I've heard), [...]
>>
>> I wonder where you've heard that? The official news from www.adom.de
>> is that Thomas plans to set aside one evening per week for working on
>> ADOM. I have not seen anything indicating what you're saying.
>>
>> Quite a few people on r.g.r.development have spread false rumours that
>> ADOM is officially dead. This is not good for the community, so I
>> wouldn't make such a statement unless I could support it with facts.
>> Sorry if I sound harsh.
>
> I think it was Vlad that told me that, actually :p  (though I'm not
> certain) I didn't say it was dead entirely, but it's obvious that Thomas
> isn't nearly as interested in ADOM as with JADE.

There's quite a difference between saying that Thomas is less interested
in ADOM than in JADE and saying that he "doesn't want to add anything
new to ADOM at all anymore". Vlad, can you comment?

Malte
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 12:05:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Malte Helmert wrote:
> Twinge wrote:
>
>> xhoch3 wrote:
>
>
> Check your attributions; many of the things you quote were said by
> somebody else.
>
>>> Snail mail isn't that bad after all. It only takes a day if we
>>> send it from Germany and it's better to have some piece of paper
>>> anyway, you can strike through bugs taken care of, you can't
>>> lose it because some virus formatted your hard disk, you don't
>>> have to have to use a pc to read it and you can use it for
>>> heating if you haven't paid your bills. I do think we should
>>> snail mail him a copy, just to make sure he has one. I could do
>>> that (once we have the list put together anyway).
>>
>>
>> Yes; semi-simultaneous snail mail and email probably.
>
>
> Honestly, that seems like too much pestering to me. Sending an e-mail
> should be enough. If Thomas does not react, it is his choice.

I don't really think it's pestering, I just want to make sure this
information is read. I don't know if Thomas is generally too busy to
_reply_ to email or too busy to _read_ emails sometimes, so I really
don't think a single postal letter would be pestering. Send a postcard
with it ;) 

>>>> [...] it's the only _easy_ way I can think of that wouldn't
>>>> actually have to add anything new (which Thomas didn't want to
>>>> do at all anymore for ADOM, I've heard), [...]
>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder where you've heard that? The official news from
>>> www.adom.de is that Thomas plans to set aside one evening per
>>> week for working on ADOM. I have not seen anything indicating
>>> what you're saying.
>>>
>>> Quite a few people on r.g.r.development have spread false rumours
>>> that ADOM is officially dead. This is not good for the
>>> community, so I wouldn't make such a statement unless I could
>>> support it with facts. Sorry if I sound harsh.
>
>
>> I think it was Vlad that told me that, actually :p  (though I'm not
>> certain) I didn't say it was dead entirely, but it's obvious that
>> Thomas isn't nearly as interested in ADOM as with JADE.
>
>
> There's quite a difference between saying that Thomas is less
> interested in ADOM than in JADE and saying that he "doesn't want to
> add anything new to ADOM at all anymore". Vlad, can you comment?

Looking through my gmail logs I'm not seeing said comment. For
clarification, 'Anything new' refered to completely new stuff, which
would require more effort than editing exsisting stuff. *Shrug* not sure
how true it is or where it came from now ;P

I did find some more bugs Vlad mentioned though:

The corruption rate only increases on the 90th day, instead of also on
the 180th and 270th.

Starting to walk wastes one turn without the PC moving.

Trying to attack a peaceful monster, then canceling, then moving costs
less energy (possibly related to backstabbing).
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 1:58:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Twinge wrote:
>
> I did find some more bugs Vlad mentioned though:
>
> The corruption rate only increases on the 90th day, instead of also on
> the 180th and 270th.
>
> Starting to walk wastes one turn without the PC moving.
>
> Trying to attack a peaceful monster, then canceling, then moving costs
> less energy (possibly related to backstabbing).

I think the latter two have already been reported some time ago. At
least the third one has been discussed here about a year ago as far as I
can recall. Still, I guess a few more bug reports won't hurt too much in
case I am mistaken.

Malte
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 2:59:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

bork bork bork Marcus bork 2:40:40 AM bork 1/13/2005 bork bork:

> Anyway, that's all tangental. The first suggestion would be my vote on 7LBs.
> Heavily increased food consumption

Not a very good solution -- many characters can stock up on stomfillia easily
(if tediously), and they rest can still stock up on food from the ratling
traders. Characters with good food preservation will under this solution
simply see fewer corpses rotting away before they can be eaten. This solution
would tend to encourage tedium, with the only real penalty being perhaps lost
game-days (in some cases before Day 90) spent on the tedium.

Erik
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 3:15:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

bork bork bork maddog@dsr.kvl.dk bork 4:26:57 PM bork 1/12/2005 bork bork:

[I haven't played ADOM in months and perhaps I shouldn't even be contributing
to this discussion, but I can't help myself. :0)]


> 3) In game bugs that severely hampers playability. This is
> the suicide bug for instance. Filk is perhaps the most
> severe as it blocks winning options. Also Keetrax (no
> Herbalism), Kranach (wasting time and piety for no gold or
> alignment), minotaur emperor (game score) and Griff
> (blocked portal and the need to expose the elder dwarf)
> are good examples of quite severe suicides. On the lower
> scale high XP monsters may commit suicide and rob the
> (trollish) player of much needed levels and thereby hamper
> character development. Also exploitable on top of
> everything else to make cats kill themselves. Not aware,
> but may also trap the player in the arena if an opponent
> kills him-/herself. All in all these bugs are just as
> severe as crashes.

I think this bug should be a) fixed, of course, but b) taken with a cool
head. The fact is, suicide beserking, and especially suiciding of key
characters. is rare. RARE. It doesn't make it any less frustrating when it
happens, but it's still rare.

> 4) In game bugs that skews class/race balance. The game
> itself is a result of long and enduring playtesting. I
> cannot claim honours on this - I joined on 1.0.0, but
> there is no doubt that the game has a very fine balance
> between the capabilities of races and classes. Some of the
> effects introduced in 1.1.1 to make it harder will favour
> certain characters more. Most important is the
> implementation of the uber-jackal effect as it can be
> defeated easier by some classes/races. I have never seen
> the need to specifically target summoners to this degree.
> A much better solution would be to make higher level
> monsters tougher in general. That would make every
> monster deeper in the CoC harder to defeat (and MaLaKaI a
> regular devil to beat). Also some of the effects to make
> 1.1.1 easier needs a touch with the balance stick. Most
> notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared to other classes
> a Bard can recieve a de facto wish for 3 talents.

Ah, the memories of our disputes over ueberjackals. :-)

First off: that was a very well-reasoned, unemotional, well-argumented, and
convincing presentation of the problem.

I think I'm most bothered by the labelling of this as a bug. I'd say it's an
issue, a problem, a misdesign, and an imbalance, but not a bug.

It's not game-killing for me; it's never been a reason for me to, for
example, go back to 1.0.0. :-P But what you write is entirely true -- it,
especially in combination with beserking, forces players to develop ranged
attacks no matter what their class. Having a ranged attack was always a smart
idea, but FORCING the player to have a ranged attack means an impoverishment
of the game by a reduction in the number of viable choices (unless you
consider "melee-only-as-challenge-game"... but that's a little silly).

And that is a shame.

> 6) Exploits. These are bugs where the choice is left to
> the player and as a result not so problematic. Piety
> wrapping and repair stack blessing (which I admit to use
> myself) are examples. Either these need to be declared
> features or mended, but should definately not recieve the
> same amount of Thomas' precious time.

Topic drift: these exploits are laughable compared to certain intended
features and their interactions. The various available types of tedious
scumming in ADOM (stone giants, herbs, crystals, bugs, etc., and their
interaction with starvation, sickness, and rings of weakness), combined with
my own strong temptation to take advantage of them, are what drove me out of
ADOM. Which may or may not be a shame. :-)

Erik
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 7:23:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Erik Piper wrote:

> bork bork bork maddog@dsr.kvl.dk bork 4:26:57 PM bork 1/12/2005 bork
> bork:

>> 4) In game bugs that skews class/race balance. The game itself is a
>> result of long and enduring playtesting. I cannot claim honours on
>> this - I joined on 1.0.0, but there is no doubt that the game has a
>> very fine balance between the capabilities of races and classes.
>> Some of the effects introduced in 1.1.1 to make it harder will
>> favour certain characters more. Most important is the
>> implementation of the uber-jackal effect as it can be defeated
>> easier by some classes/races. I have never seen the need to
>> specifically target summoners to this degree. A much better
>> solution would be to make higher level monsters tougher in general.
>> That would make every monster deeper in the CoC harder to defeat
>> (and MaLaKaI a regular devil to beat). Also some of the effects to
>> make 1.1.1 easier needs a touch with the balance stick. Most
>> notably the Heir gift for Bards. Compared to other classes a Bard
>> can recieve a de facto wish for 3 talents.
>
> Ah, the memories of our disputes over ueberjackals. :-)
>
> First off: that was a very well-reasoned, unemotional,
> well-argumented, and convincing presentation of the problem.
>
> I think I'm most bothered by the labelling of this as a bug. I'd say
> it's an issue, a problem, a misdesign, and an imbalance, but not a
> bug.

I dispute this on a matter of definition: if it's not an intended
behaviour, and the effect is in any way negative (or maybe even without
the latter caveat), then it's a bug. It may not be a severe bug, but
it's still a bug. I'd note also that a misdesign, if not so low-level as
to be a fundamental flaw in the program architecture (and maybe even if
so), *is* a bug.

I say this as a programmer, albeit one not remotely advanced enough to
design (much less complete) a roguelike. If a program or feature thereof
doesn't work right, then almost by definition, it's buggy.

--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 7:47:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Erik Piper <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:

> The fact is, suicide beserking, and especially suiciding of key
> characters. is rare. RARE. It doesn't make it any less frustrating when it
Wands of wishing are RARE. suicide berserking is common enough to happen
at least _twice_ in my every game.

brojek.
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 10:44:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Tue I wrote:

> Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea if
> we had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't want
> to look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That would
> certainly speed up adom development.
> I know this is not a new idea and was already discussed about a year
> ago, so:
> Has somebody already started a list?
>
> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would do
> it, but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I might
> just accidentally mix a few things up)
>


Since nobody said, heh I want to do it, I started a wee list, it's at
http://adombugs.100free.com/
Is that okay with you?
Feel free to tell me if you have any better idea for a host.

PS: The page doesn't display correctly with internet explorer, the
non-scrolling box on the top right corner is missing and there is no
margin between the elements of the list which makes the it somewhat harder
to use/read. You should use some serious browser like konqueror, opera,
etc if you want it to display correctly.

--
Let us live!!!
Let us love!!!
Let us share the deepest secrets of our souls!!!

You first.
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 10:44:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

xhoch3 wrote:
> On Tue I wrote:
>
>> Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea
>> if we had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't
>> want to look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That
>> would certainly speed up adom development.
>> I know this is not a new idea and was already discussed about a year
>> ago, so:
>> Has somebody already started a list?
>>
>> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would
>> do it, but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I
>> might just accidentally mix a few things up)
>>
>
>
> Since nobody said, heh I want to do it, I started a wee list, it's at
> http://adombugs.100free.com/
> Is that okay with you?
> Feel free to tell me if you have any better idea for a host.
>
> PS: The page doesn't display correctly with internet explorer, the
> non-scrolling box on the top right corner is missing and there is no
> margin between the elements of the list which makes the it somewhat
> harder to use/read. You should use some serious browser like konqueror,
> opera, etc if you want it to display correctly.

Looks like a pretty good summary of what we've talked about. A few notes:

"True Berserker
You need to wield a weapon to be a True Berserker"

It should be specifically mentioned that this is a real problem for
beastfighters (it would be for Monks too, except they don't ever get a
true berserk bonus and they are not supposed to).

"Hordes/tension rooms
Cats/unicorns/blink dogs/animals in tension rooms and hordes should be
neutral to characters having the needed means (ring of the
cats/lawful/druid)"

They are definately all made hostile on purpose, and I really don't
think it's a big problem except for white unicorns. I just don't like
the idea of an entire tension room being neutral (rats for druids for
example)... though it would take more effort to only have some
exceptions since you'd have to add a new check to see where the creature
is being generated (say, if you wanted to allowed for blink dogs, white
unicorns, and cats but nothing else). I like my previously mentioned
idea of only making an exception for white unicorn threaten/horde rooms
(probably only for lawfuls; make creation impossible instead of making
them neutral), since everything else is a smaller scale and can be
managed well enough for the most part.


Also, I have some webspace (sans-ads) available for hosting this bug
list if needed/wanted, as well as the 'spoily info not (yet) in the
guidebook' page that was discussed... I'll start putting up info as I
have time, and others can possibly assist if they want to, we'll see.
January 13, 2005 10:44:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Malte Helmert wrote:
> xhoch3 wrote:
>> On Tue I wrote:
>>
[SNIP: Lets get a condensed bug list]
>>>
>>> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list
>>> together? (I would do it, but I fear I don't have
>>> that much experience with adom, so I might just
>>> accidentally mix a few things up)
>>
>> Since nobody said, heh I want to do it, I started a wee
>> list, it's at http://adombugs.100free.com/
>
> Great!

Indeed.

>
> A few comments:
> * 3.ii. is not a bug. Maybe rename the category to
> "severe bugs and game balance problems".

I must assume responsibility here for mislabeling this as
a bug. Without checking with Websters I believe a bug is a
segment of code that prevents correct execution of the
application. While it borderline it ain't a bug per se.

> * 3.iii. is minor, not severe.
> * 4.ii. is misleading; artifact *creation* certainly is
> random, but the choice of available artifacts is buggy
> (and apparently not random). The way you phrase it, it
> sounds like the player finds the same artifacts in all
> game.

A wording could be:
"One is left with the impression that any non-guaranteed
artifact have a low probability of random generation, but
they have not. Certain artifacts can only be generated as
crown gift and others have not been seen since the mid
gammas. Since two artifacts in particular (Vanquisher and
Suns Messenger) are extremely powerful this heavily
influences the game. Either this needs to be declared a
feature or grouping and generation of artifacts should be
rethought."

> * 6.i. Please, it's "Tywat", not "Twatt". After all,
> Tywat Pare is an anagram for "Wyatt Earp". Calling him
> "Twatt" is not a good idea (cf.
> http://dict.leo.org/?search=twat)
> * Typo: mosnsters => monsters
> * Typo: alwasy => always
> * Typo: thier => their
>
January 13, 2005 10:44:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Twinge wrote:
> xhoch3 wrote:
>> On Thu Twinge wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
[SNIP: Just snip.]
>
>> * Bug with molochs wearing moloch armor
>
> Should probably be mentioned. I haven't encoutnered it
> myself so I don't know just how uber they become like
> that.
>

Worst with molochs as they are usually the ones to pick
them up, but any monster (I reckon) who dons a moloch
armor will go crazy. It wears off however. I know as I
wanted to exploit it and get a super beggar companion.

>> * jealousy piety (taking advantage of one god, and
>> gaining several pre-crownings from others)
>
> I think this was done on purpose too, but the extreme
> effects were never anticipated. I'd say leave it in but
> cap it, so your piety with the other 2 gods (that you
> aren't pissing off) can only go so high. (Say, a
> moderate amount where you could pray several times but
> not enough for a precrowning)

Yep. Cap it. Also make the piety loss cap out (so it will
maintain a constant, but severe decrease after prolonged
praying.)

> * This rage can sometimes turn a normal monster into a
> killer, or a dangerous monster into... that's bad for
> melee PCs... would be OK with one turn between the
> message is displayed and when it actually goes into
> life, and [more] prompt (or something). That's only my
> opinion, of course.

Perhaps not such a bad idea. "The -foo- looks like it's
about to enter a berserking rage" and then give the player
a calculated situation. Do I take another swing and face
the heat or do I get out of there?

Perhaps make it for players too. Increase the effects of
the Berserk tactic if you have less than MIN(tot_HP/10, 20)
HP left.
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 11:00:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

xhoch3 wrote:
> On Tue I wrote:
>
>> Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea
>> if we had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't
>> want to look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That
>> would certainly speed up adom development.
>> I know this is not a new idea and was already discussed about a year
>> ago, so:
>> Has somebody already started a list?
>>
>> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would
>> do it, but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I
>> might just accidentally mix a few things up)
>
> Since nobody said, heh I want to do it, I started a wee list, it's at
> http://adombugs.100free.com/

Great!

A few comments:
* 3.ii. is not a bug. Maybe rename the category to "severe bugs and game
balance problems".
* 3.iii. is minor, not severe.
* 4.ii. is misleading; artifact *creation* certainly is random, but the
choice of available artifacts is buggy (and apparently not random).
The way you phrase it, it sounds like the player finds the same
artifacts in all game.
* 6.i. Please, it's "Tywat", not "Twatt". After all, Tywat Pare is an
anagram for "Wyatt Earp". Calling him "Twatt" is not a good idea
(cf. http://dict.leo.org/?search=twat)
* Typo: mosnsters => monsters
* Typo: alwasy => always
* Typo: thier => their

Malte
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 11:25:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

xhoch3's mouth appears on the wall and says the following as spoiler space:

> On Tue I wrote:
>
> > Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea if
> > we had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't want
> > to look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That would
> > certainly speed up adom development.
> > I know this is not a new idea and was already discussed about a year
> > ago, so:
> > Has somebody already started a list?
> >
> > And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would do
> > it, but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I might
> > just accidentally mix a few things up)
> >
>
>
> Since nobody said, heh I want to do it, I started a wee list, it's at
> http://adombugs.100free.com/
> Is that okay with you?
> Feel free to tell me if you have any better idea for a host.
>

I'll post a Top Bug List and a Top Exploit List too!

Bugs:

* Ingot crash bug

* Skilled talent bug

* Monster killing itself during rage caused by near death state

* This rage can sometimes turn a normal monster into a killer, or a
dangerous monster into... that's bad for melee PCs... would be OK
with one turn between the message is displayed and when it actually
goes into life, and [more] prompt (or something).
That's only my opinion, of course.

* Chaos servants, jackals, spiders becoming too powerful too fast

* No corruption increase at days 180, 270
I think that's important. It is rarely talked about because it is not
generally known.

* Artifact bug (remember to mark Big Punch as fixed, and possibly the
most powerful ones are crowning-only; no sense to have Cat's Claw
as crowning only, or Lust for Glory as always unavailable) (#4546)
Fixing this bug would work as a new "feature" for ones who don't use
the patch.

* Bug with molochs wearing moloch armor

* 1 xp for cat lord after killing 300 cats

* There is a bug that causes a recoverable crash with message
"Invalid target in GetTargetData." on each turn
(about 20 reports on www.adom.de; supposedly it's related to near
death berserking of allies, and it stops when PC leaves the level)

* rethink the requirements for the Platinum Girdle... (#4856)

* typo: "affinity with polemarms", I don't know why, but it has been
reported 7 times on www.adom.de

Exploits - nice if fixed, but honest players can also just say that
they won't use them:

* jealousy piety (taking advantage of one god, and gaining several
pre-crownings from others)

* piety oveflow

* unidentified books sorted alphabetically by spell name

* name command can detect invisible

* look command can detect webs

* I don't think the one with repair scrolls is an exploit (unless
used on artifacts, where it is a bug) --- but you can report it
anyway, it's Thomas who decides what is an exploit and what is not

* ... but I would say that using sickness, starvation, rings of weakness,
etc. to improve stats is.

A new feature or two would be nice, too...
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 12:33:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Thu Twinge wrote:
> xhoch3 wrote:
>> Since nobody said, heh I want to do it, I started a wee list, it's
>> at http://adombugs.100free.com/
>> Is that okay with you?
>> Feel free to tell me if you have any better idea for a host.
>> PS: The page doesn't display correctly with internet explorer, the
>> non-scrolling box on the top right corner is missing and there is no
>> margin between the elements of the list which makes the it somewhat
>> harder to use/read. You should use some serious browser like
>> konqueror, opera, etc if you want it to display correctly.
>
> Looks like a pretty good summary of what we've talked about. A few notes:
>
> "True Berserker
> You need to wield a weapon to be a True Berserker"
>
> It should be specifically mentioned that this is a real problem for
> beastfighters (it would be for Monks too, except they don't ever get a
> true berserk bonus and they are not supposed to).
>
> "Hordes/tension rooms
> Cats/unicorns/blink dogs/animals in tension rooms and hordes should be
> neutral to characters having the needed means (ring of the
> cats/lawful/druid)"
>
> They are definately all made hostile on purpose, and I really don't
> think it's a big problem except for white unicorns. I just don't like
> the idea of an entire tension room being neutral (rats for druids for
> example)... though it would take more effort to only have some
> exceptions since you'd have to add a new check to see where the creature
> is being generated (say, if you wanted to allowed for blink dogs, white
> unicorns, and cats but nothing else). I like my previously mentioned
> idea of only making an exception for white unicorn threaten/horde rooms
> (probably only for lawfuls; make creation impossible instead of making
> them neutral), since everything else is a smaller scale and can be
> managed well enough for the most part.
>
Has been changed.
>
> Also, I have some webspace (sans-ads) available for hosting this bug
> list if needed/wanted, as well as the 'spoily info not (yet) in the
> guidebook' page that was discussed... I'll start putting up info as I
> have time, and others can possibly assist if they want to, we'll see.

That would be great once the list is somewhat complete, but at the moment,
there are still lots of things to add, so I'd have to send you a new
version quite often, and it would just take an awful lot of time till the
newest version is online.

On Thu Malte Helmert wrote:
>
> Great!
>
> A few comments:
> * 3.ii. is not a bug. Maybe rename the category to "severe bugs and game
> balance problems".
> * 3.iii. is minor, not severe.
> * 4.ii. is misleading; artifact *creation* certainly is random, but the
> choice of available artifacts is buggy (and apparently not random).
> The way you phrase it, it sounds like the player finds the same
> artifacts in all game.
> * 6.i. Please, it's "Tywat", not "Twatt". After all, Tywat Pare is an
> anagram for "Wyatt Earp". Calling him "Twatt" is not a good idea
> (cf. http://dict.leo.org/?search=twat)
> * Typo: mosnsters => monsters
> * Typo: alwasy => always
> * Typo: thier => their
>
> Malte

Thanks for all the reading through, you are so typically German :-), but
since I'm too, that's quite all right.
But for Twatt (lol) I have to blame twinge:
> Thug corpses have a bounty value on thier head, by Twatt won't accept
> them.
(It's always good if you can blame others)

Just for everybody who finds another mistake: It is always a good idea to
post a better version, instead of simply saying I made something wrong.
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 12:33:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

xhoch3 wrote:
> On Thu Twinge wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Also, I have some webspace (sans-ads) available for hosting this
>> bug list if needed/wanted, as well as the 'spoily info not (yet) in
>> the guidebook' page that was discussed... I'll start putting up
>> info as I have time, and others can possibly assist if they want
>> to, we'll see.
>
>
> That would be great once the list is somewhat complete, but at the
> moment, there are still lots of things to add, so I'd have to send
> you a new version quite often, and it would just take an awful lot
> of time till the newest version is online.
>
>
> Thanks for all the reading through, you are so typically German :-),
> but since I'm too, that's quite all right. But for Twatt (lol) I
> have to blame twinge:
>
>> Thug corpses have a bounty value on thier head, by Twatt won't
>> accept them.
>
> (It's always good if you can blame others)
>
> Just for everybody who finds another mistake: It is always a good
> idea to post a better version, instead of simply saying I made
> something wrong.

Communist Lies!
I was kind of ignoring the grammatical/spelling errors for now, since it
is a first draft and such... you should probably put periods at the end
of most of the sentances.

The site is http://adom.falldowngoboom.org/ . I haven't put up much of
anything yet (as of now, corpse effects :p ) and what I put up at first
will be mostly plain text copies from my posts and notes. One I get
these basic versions up, if someone else wants to work on reformatting
everything to look cleaner and better that'd probably be good. (At least
doing basic stuff like using tables and lists where appropirate, etc. -
I could do most of that but I'm both lazy and semi-busy ;) 

> * Bug with molochs wearing moloch armor

Should probably be mentioned. I haven't encoutnered it myself so I don't
know just how uber they become like that.

> * name command can detect invisible
>
> * look command can detect webs

Never heard of these. Someone should test them real quick and add them
if accurate.

> * I don't think the one with repair scrolls is an exploit (unless
> used on artifacts, where it is a bug) --- but you can report it
> anyway, it's Thomas who decides what is an exploit and what is not

Sure it is. You can bless a stack of 5000 uncursed stomafilla with 2
scrolls of repair. I'd call that a bug :p 

> * ... but I would say that using sickness, starvation, rings of
> weakness, etc. to improve stats is.

Perhaps... but it could take a lot of work to make them work differently
and it's probably not worth the effort.

> * unidentified books sorted alphabetically by spell name

Hehe, I suppose it should be mentioned anyway. I wish wands were sorted
alphabetically too ;/ (not for IDing purposes but for sorting/viewing)

> * jealousy piety (taking advantage of one god, and gaining several
> pre-crownings from others)

I think this was done on purpose too, but the extreme effects were never
anticipated. I'd say leave it in but cap it, so your piety with the
other 2 gods (that you aren't pissing off) can only go so high. (Say, a
moderate amount where you could pray several times but not enough for a
precrowning)
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 12:42:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

xhoch3 wrote:
> On Thu Malte Helmert wrote:
>
>> Great!
>>
>> A few comments:
>> * 3.ii. is not a bug. Maybe rename the category to "severe bugs and game
>> balance problems".
>> * 3.iii. is minor, not severe.
>> * 4.ii. is misleading; artifact *creation* certainly is random, but the
>> choice of available artifacts is buggy (and apparently not random).
>> The way you phrase it, it sounds like the player finds the same
>> artifacts in all game.
>> * 6.i. Please, it's "Tywat", not "Twatt". After all, Tywat Pare is an
>> anagram for "Wyatt Earp". Calling him "Twatt" is not a good idea
>> (cf. http://dict.leo.org/?search=twat)
>> * Typo: mosnsters => monsters
>> * Typo: alwasy => always
>> * Typo: thier => their
>>
> Thanks for all the reading through, you are so typically German :-),

Nah, if I were I'd also have pointed out that some list items have
periods at the end while others don't. Dang, I've said it, guess you're
right after all. ;-)

Malte
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 1:09:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Thu Varkoill wrote:

>
> I'll post a Top Bug List and a Top Exploit List too!
>
> Bugs:
>
[snip]
>
> * Bug with molochs wearing moloch armor
>
What's the bug here? Could somebody explain to me why a moloch shouldn't
wear moloch armor? I guess it's a severe game balance?
>
> * 1 xp for cat lord after killing 300 cats
>
> * There is a bug that causes a recoverable crash with message
> "Invalid target in GetTargetData." on each turn
> (about 20 reports on www.adom.de; supposedly it's related to near
> death berserking of allies, and it stops when PC leaves the level)
>
Where did you get the information from that it has something to do with
berserking of allies?
>
> * rethink the requirements for the Platinum Girdle... (#4856)
>
RFE.
>
> * typo: "affinity with polemarms", I don't know why, but it has been
> reported 7 times on www.adom.de
>
Is there anybody who knows where this typo is?
>
>
> Exploits - nice if fixed, but honest players can also just say that
> they won't use them:
>
> * jealousy piety (taking advantage of one god, and gaining several
> pre-crownings from others)
>
OK.
>
>
> * piety oveflow
>
> * unidentified books sorted alphabetically by spell name
>
Well, it's kind of the same with all unIDed equipment. I commonly use this
so I know whether the ration I picked up is cursed or not, I just buy an
uncursed and a blessed one in a shop (the price is different) and
everytime I pick a new one up, I look to which it is added, thus I know
whether it is b/u/c. This may be considered as bug, but it was there from
the beginning and I don't think TB will ever change it. I will mention it.
>
> * name command can detect invisible
>
Could one check that one, please?
>
> * look command can detect webs
>
Huh? Why should it be impossible to look at webs?
>
>
> * ... but I would say that using sickness, starvation, rings of weakness,
> etc. to improve stats is.
>
As twinge said: Maybe.
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 1:09:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

xhoch3 wrote:

> On Thu Varkoill wrote:
>
>> I'll post a Top Bug List and a Top Exploit List too!
>>
>> Bugs:
>>
> [snip]
>
>> * Bug with molochs wearing moloch armor
>
> What's the bug here? Could somebody explain to me why a moloch
> shouldn't wear moloch armor? I guess it's a severe game balance?

It's because when a moloch, already very slow, puts on a set of moloch
armor and slows down even further, it speed apparently loops around past
the minimum - and you have a moloch which is at least as fast as your
average quickling, probably faster. It's not "letting a moloch wear
moloch armor" per se which is the problem, although that does make
fairly little sense considering what molochs are supposed to be; the
problem is, rather, what happens when a moloch does that.

--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 1:12:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 19:44:08 +0100, xhoch3 <xhoch3@safe-mail.net> wrote:

> On Tue I wrote:
>
>> Since TB seems to resume work on adom, it would be a very nice idea if
>> we had a list of the most important bugs ready, in case he doesn't want
>> to look through all the 2336 bug reports on his page. That would
>> certainly speed up adom development.
>> I know this is not a new idea and was already discussed about a year
>> ago, so:
>> Has somebody already started a list?
>>
>> And is there anyone who wants to put such a list together? (I would do
>> it, but I fear I don't have that much experience with adom, so I might
>> just accidentally mix a few things up)
>>
>
>
> Since nobody said, heh I want to do it, I started a wee list, it's at
> http://adombugs.100free.com/
> Is that okay with you?
> Feel free to tell me if you have any better idea for a host.
>
> PS: The page doesn't display correctly with internet explorer, the
> non-scrolling box on the top right corner is missing and there is no
> margin between the elements of the list which makes the it somewhat
> harder to use/read. You should use some serious browser like konqueror,
> opera, etc if you want it to display correctly.

I have had several characters lost to a very annoying bug witch I have
never remeber been discussed here and witch wasn't on your list either.
s
p
o
i
l
e
r

s
p
a
c
e

h
e
r
e

After giving the amulet of life saving to whatshisname the dying sage
he starts to speak and I hit enter and the game crashes there.
No emergency save or nothing.


--
Signatures are for them amateurs.
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 1:12:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Thu Jaakko Iisala wrote:

>
> I have had several characters lost to a very annoying bug witch I have
> never remeber been discussed here and witch wasn't on your list either.
> s
> p
> o
> i
> l
> e
> r
>
> s
> p
> a
> c
> e
>
> h
> e
> r
> e
>
> After giving the amulet of life saving to whatshisname the dying sage
> he starts to speak and I hit enter and the game crashes there.
> No emergency save or nothing.
>
>

I don't think this one is reproducible, so I won't put it in, unless
anyone has some kind of explanation.
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 1:12:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

xhoch3 wrote:

> On Thu Jaakko Iisala wrote:
>
>> I have had several characters lost to a very annoying bug witch I
>> have never remeber been discussed here and witch wasn't on your
>> list either.

It's been discussed, all right, though not to my knowledge recently.

>> s
>> p
>> o
>> i
>> l
>> e
>> r
>>
>> s
>> p
>> a
>> c
>> e
>>
>> h
>> e
>> r
>> e
>>
>> After giving the amulet of life saving to whatshisname the dying
>> sage he starts to speak and I hit enter and the game crashes there.
>> No emergency save or nothing.
>
> I don't think this one is reproducible, so I won't put it in, unless
> anyone has some kind of explanation.

IIRC, this is not unrelated to the ingot crash bug. It happens sometimes
based on what he drops; I think it's a matter of having two separate
stacks which should be combined into one but for some reason weren't.

--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
!