Is this a good RFE?

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun about classes
in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities at levels 6, 12, etc. These
are very powerful and add a lot to the game. Removing classes would
remove the anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds of
complicated game balance issues.

But TB may have already made up his mind about this. And there is
likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't even know where to input Jade
RFEs! I just would like some feedback if people here agree or disagree,
and why.
9 answers Last reply
More about good
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Higher Game wrote:
    > I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun
    > about classes in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities
    > at levels 6, 12, etc. These are very powerful and add a
    > lot to the game. Removing classes would remove the
    > anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds
    > of complicated game balance issues.
    >
    > But TB may have already made up his mind about this. And
    > there is likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't even
    > know where to input Jade RFEs! I just would like some
    > feedback if people here agree or disagree, and why.

    I happen to disagree greatly with you on this matter. You
    have only tried ADOM with classes and have no point of
    comparison. I have my best roleplaying experiences with
    class- and levelless systems. Classes confine you to a
    stereotype and gives you less space for roleplaying.
    Allready ADoM is one of the best (if not the best)
    roguelike with regards to sheer roleplaying. More
    interactions and a huge amount of NPCs and sidequests.
    >From the information TB have given us so far JADE is going
    to blow us away with huge cities and fully interactive
    NPCs everywhere. It is definately yet another step upwards
    from a roleplaying point of view.

    Nevertheless roguelikes are very mechanical as RPGs go. I
    anticipate class powers replaced by quest powers. E.g. you
    need to complete the gemcutter guild quest and vanquish a
    named diamond golem before you gain a special power to
    activate certain crystals... or whatever TB makes up. I
    have full confidence in his skills. My guess is as good as
    yours.

    I also foresee a tremendous work on playtesting. Hopefully
    we will see gammas and such to remove bugs and
    inconsistencies. These will give us more ground to work on
    regarding RFEs and ideas.
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Higher Game wrote:
    > I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun about classes
    > in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities at levels 6, 12, etc. These
    > are very powerful and add a lot to the game. Removing classes would
    > remove the anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds of
    > complicated game balance issues.
    >
    > But TB may have already made up his mind about this. And there is
    > likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't even know where to input Jade
    > RFEs! I just would like some feedback if people here agree or disagree,
    > and why.
    >

    Wait a minute... so your RFE, stripped down to nuts and bolts, is "I
    want classes in JADE"?

    Not gonna happen. You're asking for a change to a fundamental element to
    the game. That's like asking Nature to turn off winter. Too freaking
    cold and snowy? Move to Cayman. Want classes? Play ADOM. It'll still be
    there, after all.

    --
    Curry Bucket's Controversial Web Presence:
    The Birthplace of Teenage Angst
    http://chat.carleton.ca/~jsingh3/
    or http://www.currybucket.cjb.net/
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
    > Higher Game wrote:
    > > I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun
    > > about classes in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities
    > > at levels 6, 12, etc. These are very powerful and add a
    > > lot to the game. Removing classes would remove the
    > > anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds
    > > of complicated game balance issues.
    > >
    > > But TB may have already made up his mind about this. And
    > > there is likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't even
    > > know where to input Jade RFEs! I just would like some
    > > feedback if people here agree or disagree, and why.
    >
    > I happen to disagree greatly with you on this matter. You
    > have only tried ADOM with classes and have no point of
    > comparison. I have my best roleplaying experiences with
    > class- and levelless systems. Classes confine you to a
    > stereotype and gives you less space for roleplaying.
    > Allready ADoM is one of the best (if not the best)
    > roguelike with regards to sheer roleplaying. More
    > interactions and a huge amount of NPCs and sidequests.
    > >From the information TB have given us so far JADE is going
    > to blow us away with huge cities and fully interactive
    > NPCs everywhere. It is definately yet another step upwards
    > from a roleplaying point of view.
    >
    > Nevertheless roguelikes are very mechanical as RPGs go. I
    > anticipate class powers replaced by quest powers. E.g. you
    > need to complete the gemcutter guild quest and vanquish a
    > named diamond golem before you gain a special power to
    > activate certain crystals... or whatever TB makes up. I
    > have full confidence in his skills. My guess is as good as
    > yours.
    >
    > I also foresee a tremendous work on playtesting. Hopefully
    > we will see gammas and such to remove bugs and
    > inconsistencies. These will give us more ground to work on
    > regarding RFEs and ideas.

    I'm sorry if I seemed stupid in my post. I just don't want TB to waste
    10 years on Jade. It's just that, ADOM is such a great game, I don't
    know what to think if the formula was changed too much.

    I recently tried to get into Angband and Nethack. No luck. ADOM is just
    the best rogue like game ever and I don't want too much to be changed.
    It's not fun being pessimistic by nature.

    Attempts at random quests in ADOM are miserable. Guess what I have to
    kill for Thrundaar? A berserker prince. Yep. I would be so angry if
    Jade was nothing but random stuff like that.
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Higher Game wrote:

    > I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun about classes
    > in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities at levels 6, 12, etc. These
    > are very powerful and add a lot to the game. Removing classes would
    > remove the anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds of
    > complicated game balance issues.
    >
    > But TB may have already made up his mind about this. And there is
    > likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't even know where to input Jade
    > RFEs! I just would like some feedback if people here agree or disagree,
    > and why.
    >

    No classes does not necessarily mean you lose the special class powers, it
    could be solved with a guild system:
    You join a guild (or maybe more than one?) and time after time (probably
    for doing some quests) you will receive special powers, but you can always
    choose to leave the guild and join another one. Though that would make
    game balancing quite difficult.
    Generally I have nothing against the current class system, but a guild
    system would certainly be more plausible then class abilities appearing
    from nowhere.

    BTW Thomas never said classless, he mentioned a multiclassing system,
    which is quite a difference I think.

    --
    Tonight's the night: Sleep in a eucalyptus tree.
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    > I think Jade being classless is a bad idea.

    There is no indication that JADE is going to be classless. From what TB
    describes, it is not only going to have classes, but you will have the
    option to switch between them. It doesn't seem to be a case of not
    getting to be a barbarian (for example); rather a case of getting to be
    both a barbarian and a priest, should you so desire.

    > The most fun about classes
    > in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities at levels 6, 12, etc.

    I've never found that to be the most fun, actually, but YMMV and all
    that. :)

    > These
    > are very powerful and add a lot to the game. Removing classes would
    > remove the anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds of
    > complicated game balance issues.

    Even if TB removed classes (which there's no indication that he's going
    to do), tou are assuming that removing classes means that there will be
    no special abilities, and that there won't be level requirements for
    those special abilities. Would the game really be that much less fun
    if, instead of thinking "Oh boy! Two more levels and I get to do extra
    damage sometimes 'cause I'm a barbarian!" you got to think "Oh boy! Two
    more levels and I get to pick between doing extra damage and getting
    extra healing!"?

    And it will not necessarily result in game balance issues (although I
    believe TB has already observed several times that he doesn't view the
    'imbalance' between the survival likelihood of, say, a merchant and a
    barbarian to be a problem. Neither do I), at least not ones which are
    any more problematic than the ones which already exist.

    Love and coffee,
    Frances
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    From: maddog@dsr.kvl.dk
    Date: 17 Jan 2005 12:52:56 -0800

    > Classes confine you to a
    >stereotype and gives you less space for roleplaying.

    Only if you let them. I've run a few games with lecherous paladins, wizards
    incapable of casting spells, and all kinds of other bizzare setups.

    One thing about stereotypes is that exceptions are a dime a dozen. And yes,
    this is a stereotype itself, and it does have it's own exceptions.

    Now, that said, in a roguelike, or any CRPG, for that matter, the roleplaying
    is restrained by the programmer's (and other designers, when appropriate)
    ability to design and the computer's ability to deal with massive
    cross-referenced lists of exceptions and changes that every decision can make
    (which often constrains games in such a way that it rarely really qualifies as
    roleplaying).

    This is not a fault of roleplaying so much as it is that of a computer. Logic
    doesn't work so well for this sort of game, and logic is the beginning and the
    end of a computer's functioning.
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Higher Game wrote:
    > maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
    >> Higher Game wrote:
    >>> I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most
    >>> fun about classes in ADOM is waiting for new class
    >>> abilities at levels 6, 12, etc. These are very
    >>> powerful and add a lot to the game. Removing classes
    >>> would remove the anticipation of that crucial level
    >>> and cause all kinds of complicated game balance
    >>> issues.
    >>>
    >>> But TB may have already made up his mind about this.
    >>> And there is likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't
    >>> even know where to input Jade RFEs! I just would like
    >>> some feedback if people here agree or disagree, and
    >>> why.
    >>
    >> I happen to disagree greatly with you on this matter.
    >> You have only tried ADOM with classes and have no point
    >> of comparison. I have my best roleplaying experiences
    >> with class- and levelless systems. Classes confine you
    >> to a stereotype and gives you less space for
    >> roleplaying. Allready ADoM is one of the best (if not
    >> the best) roguelike with regards to sheer roleplaying.
    >> More interactions and a huge amount of NPCs and
    >> sidequests.
    >> From the information TB have given us so far JADE is
    >> going
    >> to blow us away with huge cities and fully interactive
    >> NPCs everywhere. It is definately yet another step
    >> upwards from a roleplaying point of view.
    >>
    >> Nevertheless roguelikes are very mechanical as RPGs go.
    >> I anticipate class powers replaced by quest powers.
    >> E.g. you need to complete the gemcutter guild quest and
    >> vanquish a named diamond golem before you gain a
    >> special power to activate certain crystals... or
    >> whatever TB makes up. I have full confidence in his
    >> skills. My guess is as good as yours.
    >>
    >> I also foresee a tremendous work on playtesting.
    >> Hopefully we will see gammas and such to remove bugs
    >> and inconsistencies. These will give us more ground to
    >> work on regarding RFEs and ideas.
    >
    > I'm sorry if I seemed stupid in my post. I just don't
    > want TB to waste 10 years on Jade. It's just that, ADOM
    > is such a great game, I don't know what to think if the
    > formula was changed too much.
    >
    > I recently tried to get into Angband and Nethack. No
    > luck. ADOM is just the best rogue like game ever and I
    > don't want too much to be changed. It's not fun being
    > pessimistic by nature.
    >
    > Attempts at random quests in ADOM are miserable. Guess
    > what I have to kill for Thrundaar? A berserker prince.
    > Yep. I would be so angry if Jade was nothing but random
    > stuff like that.

    If you got the impression that I was talking down to you
    and that I was assuming you are stupid on basis of my post
    then I am the part that needs to apologize.

    Thundarrs "kill-a-beast" quests are only horrible in the
    sense that they are too variable in difficulty and that
    they block the next and far more interesting quests. It
    would have been better to create a set of monsters from
    which the target could be selected.

    Perhaps I am naive, but I have a great deal of confidence
    in TB. I also believe he will start to release gamma and
    beta models as soon as he has something that works just
    partially, because there is a plethora of ideas floating
    around in the huge ADOM community. The sooner a problem is
    caught the easier it is to remedy.

    I have also tried Angband - my roguelike days started back
    with Moria on the Amiga so Angband was a logical thing to
    try out - and like Moria I find it boring in the long run.
    It's just a (nearly) endless dive while you scum for
    resistences to meet the next crowd of monsters to
    vanquish.

    In response to Arturus on stereotype classes: Certainly!
    Better gamers = better RPG experience. Replace alignment
    with personality traits and class limitations with
    penalties (so e.g. a magic user can use a sword, but at
    great penalties) and you have a working model. A paladin
    who does good because he/she feels bound by honour will
    react and roleplay differently from a paladin who does so
    because it is part of his/her personality. A cruel
    paladin will not allow any form of surrender, a
    melancholic paladin will feel he/she is struggling in vain
    and blame the world for not doing more to combat evil and
    so on.

    My initial thought was just that a character who starts as
    peasant and become a wizard during the game as a result of
    choice and dedication will have better connection to the
    player. It is my personal experience that better
    player/character connection yields better gaming.
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Higher Game <sidneyg83@yahoo.com> wrote:
    > I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun about classes
    > in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities at levels 6, 12, etc. These
    > are very powerful and add a lot to the game.

    Who sais you won't receive special abilities? You might just
    receive more of them, not at particular levels but after some practice.
    For example, after smithing a lot you might get the ability to smelt
    items into ingots. Spending some time in a wilderness would make
    you immune to all negative weather effects, and so on.

    brojek.
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    I remember playing Moria when I was like 10 years old on my mac. I
    looked back on it, and I now see how bad it was. Stat draining traps
    were too common and it took 100 digging attempts to get that 20 gold
    stuck in the wall! Angband just seems like Moria with 3x the length of
    game required to beat it. As if Moria 's dive wasn't long enough...
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