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Is this a good RFE?

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Anonymous
January 17, 2005 3:03:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun about classes
in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities at levels 6, 12, etc. These
are very powerful and add a lot to the game. Removing classes would
remove the anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds of
complicated game balance issues.

But TB may have already made up his mind about this. And there is
likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't even know where to input Jade
RFEs! I just would like some feedback if people here agree or disagree,
and why.

More about : good rfe

January 17, 2005 3:52:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Higher Game wrote:
> I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun
> about classes in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities
> at levels 6, 12, etc. These are very powerful and add a
> lot to the game. Removing classes would remove the
> anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds
> of complicated game balance issues.
>
> But TB may have already made up his mind about this. And
> there is likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't even
> know where to input Jade RFEs! I just would like some
> feedback if people here agree or disagree, and why.

I happen to disagree greatly with you on this matter. You
have only tried ADOM with classes and have no point of
comparison. I have my best roleplaying experiences with
class- and levelless systems. Classes confine you to a
stereotype and gives you less space for roleplaying.
Allready ADoM is one of the best (if not the best)
roguelike with regards to sheer roleplaying. More
interactions and a huge amount of NPCs and sidequests.
>From the information TB have given us so far JADE is going
to blow us away with huge cities and fully interactive
NPCs everywhere. It is definately yet another step upwards
from a roleplaying point of view.

Nevertheless roguelikes are very mechanical as RPGs go. I
anticipate class powers replaced by quest powers. E.g. you
need to complete the gemcutter guild quest and vanquish a
named diamond golem before you gain a special power to
activate certain crystals... or whatever TB makes up. I
have full confidence in his skills. My guess is as good as
yours.

I also foresee a tremendous work on playtesting. Hopefully
we will see gammas and such to remove bugs and
inconsistencies. These will give us more ground to work on
regarding RFEs and ideas.
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 6:24:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Higher Game wrote:
> I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun about classes
> in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities at levels 6, 12, etc. These
> are very powerful and add a lot to the game. Removing classes would
> remove the anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds of
> complicated game balance issues.
>
> But TB may have already made up his mind about this. And there is
> likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't even know where to input Jade
> RFEs! I just would like some feedback if people here agree or disagree,
> and why.
>

Wait a minute... so your RFE, stripped down to nuts and bolts, is "I
want classes in JADE"?

Not gonna happen. You're asking for a change to a fundamental element to
the game. That's like asking Nature to turn off winter. Too freaking
cold and snowy? Move to Cayman. Want classes? Play ADOM. It'll still be
there, after all.

--
Curry Bucket's Controversial Web Presence:
The Birthplace of Teenage Angst
http://chat.carleton.ca/~jsingh3/
or http://www.currybucket.cjb.net/
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 10:06:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
> Higher Game wrote:
> > I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun
> > about classes in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities
> > at levels 6, 12, etc. These are very powerful and add a
> > lot to the game. Removing classes would remove the
> > anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds
> > of complicated game balance issues.
> >
> > But TB may have already made up his mind about this. And
> > there is likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't even
> > know where to input Jade RFEs! I just would like some
> > feedback if people here agree or disagree, and why.
>
> I happen to disagree greatly with you on this matter. You
> have only tried ADOM with classes and have no point of
> comparison. I have my best roleplaying experiences with
> class- and levelless systems. Classes confine you to a
> stereotype and gives you less space for roleplaying.
> Allready ADoM is one of the best (if not the best)
> roguelike with regards to sheer roleplaying. More
> interactions and a huge amount of NPCs and sidequests.
> >From the information TB have given us so far JADE is going
> to blow us away with huge cities and fully interactive
> NPCs everywhere. It is definately yet another step upwards
> from a roleplaying point of view.
>
> Nevertheless roguelikes are very mechanical as RPGs go. I
> anticipate class powers replaced by quest powers. E.g. you
> need to complete the gemcutter guild quest and vanquish a
> named diamond golem before you gain a special power to
> activate certain crystals... or whatever TB makes up. I
> have full confidence in his skills. My guess is as good as
> yours.
>
> I also foresee a tremendous work on playtesting. Hopefully
> we will see gammas and such to remove bugs and
> inconsistencies. These will give us more ground to work on
> regarding RFEs and ideas.

I'm sorry if I seemed stupid in my post. I just don't want TB to waste
10 years on Jade. It's just that, ADOM is such a great game, I don't
know what to think if the formula was changed too much.

I recently tried to get into Angband and Nethack. No luck. ADOM is just
the best rogue like game ever and I don't want too much to be changed.
It's not fun being pessimistic by nature.

Attempts at random quests in ADOM are miserable. Guess what I have to
kill for Thrundaar? A berserker prince. Yep. I would be so angry if
Jade was nothing but random stuff like that.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 12:43:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Higher Game wrote:

> I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun about classes
> in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities at levels 6, 12, etc. These
> are very powerful and add a lot to the game. Removing classes would
> remove the anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds of
> complicated game balance issues.
>
> But TB may have already made up his mind about this. And there is
> likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't even know where to input Jade
> RFEs! I just would like some feedback if people here agree or disagree,
> and why.
>

No classes does not necessarily mean you lose the special class powers, it
could be solved with a guild system:
You join a guild (or maybe more than one?) and time after time (probably
for doing some quests) you will receive special powers, but you can always
choose to leave the guild and join another one. Though that would make
game balancing quite difficult.
Generally I have nothing against the current class system, but a guild
system would certainly be more plausible then class abilities appearing
from nowhere.

BTW Thomas never said classless, he mentioned a multiclassing system,
which is quite a difference I think.

--
Tonight's the night: Sleep in a eucalyptus tree.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 3:35:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

> I think Jade being classless is a bad idea.

There is no indication that JADE is going to be classless. From what TB
describes, it is not only going to have classes, but you will have the
option to switch between them. It doesn't seem to be a case of not
getting to be a barbarian (for example); rather a case of getting to be
both a barbarian and a priest, should you so desire.

> The most fun about classes
> in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities at levels 6, 12, etc.

I've never found that to be the most fun, actually, but YMMV and all
that. :) 

> These
> are very powerful and add a lot to the game. Removing classes would
> remove the anticipation of that crucial level and cause all kinds of
> complicated game balance issues.

Even if TB removed classes (which there's no indication that he's going
to do), tou are assuming that removing classes means that there will be
no special abilities, and that there won't be level requirements for
those special abilities. Would the game really be that much less fun
if, instead of thinking "Oh boy! Two more levels and I get to do extra
damage sometimes 'cause I'm a barbarian!" you got to think "Oh boy! Two
more levels and I get to pick between doing extra damage and getting
extra healing!"?

And it will not necessarily result in game balance issues (although I
believe TB has already observed several times that he doesn't view the
'imbalance' between the survival likelihood of, say, a merchant and a
barbarian to be a problem. Neither do I), at least not ones which are
any more problematic than the ones which already exist.

Love and coffee,
Frances
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 7:14:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

From: maddog@dsr.kvl.dk
Date: 17 Jan 2005 12:52:56 -0800

> Classes confine you to a
>stereotype and gives you less space for roleplaying.

Only if you let them. I've run a few games with lecherous paladins, wizards
incapable of casting spells, and all kinds of other bizzare setups.

One thing about stereotypes is that exceptions are a dime a dozen. And yes,
this is a stereotype itself, and it does have it's own exceptions.

Now, that said, in a roguelike, or any CRPG, for that matter, the roleplaying
is restrained by the programmer's (and other designers, when appropriate)
ability to design and the computer's ability to deal with massive
cross-referenced lists of exceptions and changes that every decision can make
(which often constrains games in such a way that it rarely really qualifies as
roleplaying).

This is not a fault of roleplaying so much as it is that of a computer. Logic
doesn't work so well for this sort of game, and logic is the beginning and the
end of a computer's functioning.
January 18, 2005 11:04:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Higher Game wrote:
> maddog@dsr.kvl.dk wrote:
>> Higher Game wrote:
>>> I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most
>>> fun about classes in ADOM is waiting for new class
>>> abilities at levels 6, 12, etc. These are very
>>> powerful and add a lot to the game. Removing classes
>>> would remove the anticipation of that crucial level
>>> and cause all kinds of complicated game balance
>>> issues.
>>>
>>> But TB may have already made up his mind about this.
>>> And there is likely a duplicate somewhere. And I don't
>>> even know where to input Jade RFEs! I just would like
>>> some feedback if people here agree or disagree, and
>>> why.
>>
>> I happen to disagree greatly with you on this matter.
>> You have only tried ADOM with classes and have no point
>> of comparison. I have my best roleplaying experiences
>> with class- and levelless systems. Classes confine you
>> to a stereotype and gives you less space for
>> roleplaying. Allready ADoM is one of the best (if not
>> the best) roguelike with regards to sheer roleplaying.
>> More interactions and a huge amount of NPCs and
>> sidequests.
>> From the information TB have given us so far JADE is
>> going
>> to blow us away with huge cities and fully interactive
>> NPCs everywhere. It is definately yet another step
>> upwards from a roleplaying point of view.
>>
>> Nevertheless roguelikes are very mechanical as RPGs go.
>> I anticipate class powers replaced by quest powers.
>> E.g. you need to complete the gemcutter guild quest and
>> vanquish a named diamond golem before you gain a
>> special power to activate certain crystals... or
>> whatever TB makes up. I have full confidence in his
>> skills. My guess is as good as yours.
>>
>> I also foresee a tremendous work on playtesting.
>> Hopefully we will see gammas and such to remove bugs
>> and inconsistencies. These will give us more ground to
>> work on regarding RFEs and ideas.
>
> I'm sorry if I seemed stupid in my post. I just don't
> want TB to waste 10 years on Jade. It's just that, ADOM
> is such a great game, I don't know what to think if the
> formula was changed too much.
>
> I recently tried to get into Angband and Nethack. No
> luck. ADOM is just the best rogue like game ever and I
> don't want too much to be changed. It's not fun being
> pessimistic by nature.
>
> Attempts at random quests in ADOM are miserable. Guess
> what I have to kill for Thrundaar? A berserker prince.
> Yep. I would be so angry if Jade was nothing but random
> stuff like that.

If you got the impression that I was talking down to you
and that I was assuming you are stupid on basis of my post
then I am the part that needs to apologize.

Thundarrs "kill-a-beast" quests are only horrible in the
sense that they are too variable in difficulty and that
they block the next and far more interesting quests. It
would have been better to create a set of monsters from
which the target could be selected.

Perhaps I am naive, but I have a great deal of confidence
in TB. I also believe he will start to release gamma and
beta models as soon as he has something that works just
partially, because there is a plethora of ideas floating
around in the huge ADOM community. The sooner a problem is
caught the easier it is to remedy.

I have also tried Angband - my roguelike days started back
with Moria on the Amiga so Angband was a logical thing to
try out - and like Moria I find it boring in the long run.
It's just a (nearly) endless dive while you scum for
resistences to meet the next crowd of monsters to
vanquish.

In response to Arturus on stereotype classes: Certainly!
Better gamers = better RPG experience. Replace alignment
with personality traits and class limitations with
penalties (so e.g. a magic user can use a sword, but at
great penalties) and you have a working model. A paladin
who does good because he/she feels bound by honour will
react and roleplay differently from a paladin who does so
because it is part of his/her personality. A cruel
paladin will not allow any form of surrender, a
melancholic paladin will feel he/she is struggling in vain
and blame the world for not doing more to combat evil and
so on.

My initial thought was just that a character who starts as
peasant and become a wizard during the game as a result of
choice and dedication will have better connection to the
player. It is my personal experience that better
player/character connection yields better gaming.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 1:24:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Higher Game <sidneyg83@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I think Jade being classless is a bad idea. The most fun about classes
> in ADOM is waiting for new class abilities at levels 6, 12, etc. These
> are very powerful and add a lot to the game.

Who sais you won't receive special abilities? You might just
receive more of them, not at particular levels but after some practice.
For example, after smithing a lot you might get the ability to smelt
items into ingots. Spending some time in a wilderness would make
you immune to all negative weather effects, and so on.

brojek.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 4:12:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

I remember playing Moria when I was like 10 years old on my mac. I
looked back on it, and I now see how bad it was. Stat draining traps
were too common and it took 100 digging attempts to get that 20 gold
stuck in the wall! Angband just seems like Moria with 3x the length of
game required to beat it. As if Moria 's dive wasn't long enough...
!