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[slightly spoily] A different kind of shop

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Anonymous
January 18, 2005 6:22:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

[Spoils]
..
..
..
..
..
[Spoils]
..
..
..
..
..
[Spoils]
..
..
..
..
..
[Spoils]
..
..
..
..
..
[Spoils]
..
..
..
..
..
[Spoils]
=============================================

Started a dwarven fighter for some good ol' ground-round,
thin-red-pastin' action. Dove quickly, skipping the puppy and healer
quests (sign-scummed for Candle), and came across a slightly unusual
shop in UD 8. I'll let you guys look for yourselves; this is the save
file, right in front of the odd shop. [Windows Beta 4 savegame, use
the appropriate version!]
http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/dkarrde/WeirdSho.svg

-Dkarrde
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 5:43:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On 18 Jan 2005 15:22:39 -0800, dkarrde@gmail.com wrote:

> [Spoils]
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> [Spoils]
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> [Spoils]
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> [Spoils]
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> [Spoils]
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> [Spoils]
> =============================================
>
> Started a dwarven fighter for some good ol' ground-round,
> thin-red-pastin' action. Dove quickly, skipping the puppy and healer
> quests (sign-scummed for Candle), and came across a slightly unusual
> shop in UD 8. I'll let you guys look for yourselves; this is the save
> file, right in front of the odd shop. [Windows Beta 4 savegame, use
> the appropriate version!]
> http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/dkarrde/WeirdSho.svg

Looks like this is the same bug responsible for the weird row of doors
in the banshee's room. Here's a typical example of the banshee level:

###############################################################
#%..%...............%....%...................}....../........%#
###########.#############################################.#####.........#
#....%.%..#.# #.+......%%.+............%...%...%%.# #.........#
#......@..#.# #######.#.%...%%..######################### #.........#
#.........%Y# #.......#.........# #%.....%..#
#######+##### #.#######.........# ######## ###########
#.# #.# #.........# #......#
#.# #######/# ########### #..>...##############################
#.# #.......# ###......#.......%.%...%......#.......#
#.# #.......#################.#......####################.#%......#
#.# #......%/..%..%.%.........######## #.+..%.%%.#
#####/###.%..%..########################### ########### ###.......#
#.....#.#......./.%.......................# #.........# #.......#
#.....###%...%..#########################.###.........# #....%..#
#.....# #.......# #"..+.........# #.......#
####### ######### ############### #########

Examine the room in the center. Notice anything strange about it? Its
size (width and height) are even numbers, however all other normal
dungeon rooms have usually odd width and height.

Now, for the shop in question:

[with items] [without items]

######## ########
#.......# #.......#
#.....<.#### #.....<.####
#......./.... #......./....
######/#### ######/####
#.# #.#
#.# #.#
#.# #.#
#####/# #####/#
#!!!@/# #...@/#
#!!!!!# #..../#
#!!!!!# #..../#
#!!!@!# #...@/#
#!!!!!# #..../#
#!!!!## #....##
###### ######

This shop has a height of 6 and a width of, seemingly, 5. However, looks
like the game wanted to make a 6x4 room, but messed up while trying to
connect a corridor to it, and "dug" a column of doors.

Also, note that the PC is the @ at the top, and the shopkeeper stands
still in the middle of the room, even if the PC picks up an item. He
does sound an alarm when the PC tries to exit with unpaid items in hand.

The left walls of the shop, apart from the one extruding tile, are
diggable - because those walls are not part of the shop. AdomBot
displays clearly that the room is defined by the 6x8 box, with the row
of doors as the left boundary.

--
A blessed ElDeR cHaOs GoD figurine of wondrous power (25s) is lying
here.

AdomBot - bot, demos, sounds, cheats, and more
http://www.geocities.com/adombot/
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 5:43:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
> On 18 Jan 2005 15:22:39 -0800, dkarrde@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>[Spoils]
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>[Spoils]
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>[Spoils]
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>[Spoils]
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>[Spoils]
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>[Spoils]
>>=============================================
>>
>>Started a dwarven fighter for some good ol' ground-round,
>>thin-red-pastin' action. Dove quickly, skipping the puppy and healer
>>quests (sign-scummed for Candle), and came across a slightly unusual
>>shop in UD 8. I'll let you guys look for yourselves; this is the save
>>file, right in front of the odd shop. [Windows Beta 4 savegame, use
>>the appropriate version!]
>>http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/dkarrde/WeirdSho.svg
>
>
> Looks like this is the same bug responsible for the weird row of doors
> in the banshee's room. Here's a typical example of the banshee level:
>
> ###############################################################
> #%..%...............%....%...................}....../........%#
> ###########.#############################################.#####.........#
> #....%.%..#.# #.+......%%.+............%...%...%%.# #.........#
> #......@..#.# #######.#.%...%%..######################### #.........#
> #.........%Y# #.......#.........# #%.....%..#
> #######+##### #.#######.........# ######## ###########
> #.# #.# #.........# #......#
> #.# #######/# ########### #..>...##############################
> #.# #.......# ###......#.......%.%...%......#.......#
> #.# #.......#################.#......####################.#%......#
> #.# #......%/..%..%.%.........######## #.+..%.%%.#
> #####/###.%..%..########################### ########### ###.......#
> #.....#.#......./.%.......................# #.........# #.......#
> #.....###%...%..#########################.###.........# #....%..#
> #.....# #.......# #"..+.........# #.......#
> ####### ######### ############### #########
>
> Examine the room in the center. Notice anything strange about it? Its
> size (width and height) are even numbers, however all other normal
> dungeon rooms have usually odd width and height.
>
> Now, for the shop in question:
>
> [with items] [without items]
>
> ######## ########
> #.......# #.......#
> #.....<.#### #.....<.####
> #......./.... #......./....
> ######/#### ######/####
> #.# #.#
> #.# #.#
> #.# #.#
> #####/# #####/#
> #!!!@/# #...@/#
> #!!!!!# #..../#
> #!!!!!# #..../#
> #!!!@!# #...@/#
> #!!!!!# #..../#
> #!!!!## #....##
> ###### ######
>
> This shop has a height of 6 and a width of, seemingly, 5. However, looks
> like the game wanted to make a 6x4 room, but messed up while trying to
> connect a corridor to it, and "dug" a column of doors.
>
> Also, note that the PC is the @ at the top, and the shopkeeper stands
> still in the middle of the room, even if the PC picks up an item. He
> does sound an alarm when the PC tries to exit with unpaid items in hand.
>
> The left walls of the shop, apart from the one extruding tile, are
> diggable - because those walls are not part of the shop. AdomBot
> displays clearly that the room is defined by the 6x8 box, with the row
> of doors as the left boundary.

left = right?

Yeah, I saw that in the bug database one time; "Rooms always have an odd
number of spaces"... and it's true. This is a rather rare bug that
doesn't really hurt anything, but it _might_ be worth mentioning in the
email, not sure. Should be listed on our little bug page at least.
Would be interesting to figure out exactly what causes this confusion in
the code too. (go, Vladimir! ...I'm too lazy ;) 
Related resources
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 7:48:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 19:03:15 -0700, Twinge wrote:

> Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

[mega-snipping]

>> The left walls of the shop, apart from the one extruding tile, are
>> diggable - because those walls are not part of the shop. AdomBot
>> displays clearly that the room is defined by the 6x8 box, with the row
>> of doors as the left boundary.
>
> left = right?

Hm, guess I can explain in detail such rare glitches but can't tell left
from right :( 

> Yeah, I saw that in the bug database one time; "Rooms always have an odd
> number of spaces"... and it's true. This is a rather rare bug that
> doesn't really hurt anything, but it _might_ be worth mentioning in the
> email, not sure. Should be listed on our little bug page at least.
> Would be interesting to figure out exactly what causes this confusion in
> the code too. (go, Vladimir! ...I'm too lazy ;) 

No way I'm looking in the dungeon generation code - the code is scary
there :( 

My guess would be as follows: first, dungeon rooms are generated, and
then an attempt is made to connect there rooms with corridors. However,
when (for some reason) the generator creates a room with even numbers of
rows/columns, the corridor generator doesn't take that into account and
tries to connect to the room to the right-most/bottom-most tile - which
would be rock. I assume that the generator generates corridor tiles
before entering the room, and then digs throughout the room turning rock
to doors until it hits a floor tile. Normally, it would turn only the
first tile to a door - but when it hits the right-most/bottom-most
row/column, which is actually the left/bottom wall of the room, it turns
it all (or almost all) into doors.

If this still sounded too confusing, I suggest you take a look at that
save-file with AdomBot's map editor. Did you know there are over 4 map
elements that denote a wall in ADOM? Some walls denote room walls (the
walls directly around the room), some undiggable walls, some undiggable
but won't let even ghosts through, etc. All these different wall types
are color-coded in the map editor.

--
A blessed ElDeR cHaOs GoD figurine of wondrous power (25s) is lying
here.

AdomBot - bot, demos, sounds, cheats, and more
http://www.geocities.com/adombot/
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 2:17:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

<dkarrde@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1106090559.411800.134270@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> [Spoils]
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> [Spoils]
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> [Spoils]
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> [Spoils]
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> [Spoils]
> .
> .
> .
> .
> .
> [Spoils]
> =============================================
>
> Started a dwarven fighter for some good ol' ground-round,
> thin-red-pastin' action. Dove quickly, skipping the puppy and healer
> quests (sign-scummed for Candle), and came across a slightly unusual
> shop in UD 8. I'll let you guys look for yourselves; this is the save
> file, right in front of the odd shop. [Windows Beta 4 savegame, use
> the appropriate version!]
> http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/dkarrde/WeirdSho.svg
>
> -Dkarrde

Whadda????????
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 2:17:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Lochok wrote:
> <dkarrde@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1106090559.411800.134270@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
>>[Spoils]
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>[Spoils]
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>[Spoils]
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>[Spoils]
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>[Spoils]
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>.
>>[Spoils]
>>=============================================
>>
>>Started a dwarven fighter for some good ol' ground-round,
>>thin-red-pastin' action. Dove quickly, skipping the puppy and healer
>>quests (sign-scummed for Candle), and came across a slightly unusual
>>shop in UD 8. I'll let you guys look for yourselves; this is the save
>>file, right in front of the odd shop. [Windows Beta 4 savegame, use
>>the appropriate version!]
>>http://jupiter.walagata.com/w/dkarrde/WeirdSho.svg
>>
>>-Dkarrde
>
>
> Whadda????????

Heh yeah, I've heard of that bug but never seen it myself. I thought
that had been fixed in 1.1.1 though, maybe not...
Anonymous
January 19, 2005 11:54:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Vladimir Panteleev wrote:

>
>> [Spoils]
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> [Spoils]
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> [Spoils]
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> [Spoils]
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> [Spoils]
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> .
>> [Spoils]
>> =============================================
>>
[snip]
>
> Now, for the shop in question:
>
> [with items] [without items]
>
> ######## ########
> #.......# #.......#
> #.....<.#### #.....<.####
> #......./.... #......./....
> ######/#### ######/####
> #.# #.#
> #.# #.#
> #.# #.#
> #####/# #####/#
> #!!!@/# #...@/#
> #!!!!!# #..../#
> #!!!!!# #..../#
> #!!!@!# #...@/#
> #!!!!!# #..../#
> #!!!!## #....##
> ###### ######
>
> This shop has a height of 6 and a width of, seemingly, 5. However, looks
> like the game wanted to make a 6x4 room, but messed up while trying to
> connect a corridor to it, and "dug" a column of doors.
>
> Also, note that the PC is the @ at the top, and the shopkeeper stands
> still in the middle of the room, even if the PC picks up an item. He
> does sound an alarm when the PC tries to exit with unpaid items in hand.
>
> The left walls of the shop, apart from the one extruding tile, are
> diggable - because those walls are not part of the shop. AdomBot
> displays clearly that the room is defined by the 6x8 box, with the row
> of doors as the left boundary.
>

I added this bug to the list and posted your explanation as well. I hope
you won't claim your copyright :-).

--
Subtlety is the art of saying what you think and getting out of the way
before it is understood.
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 8:52:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:54:48 +0100, xhoch3 wrote:

> Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>
>>
>>> [Spoils]
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> [Spoils]
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> [Spoils]
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> [Spoils]
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> [Spoils]
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> .
>>> [Spoils]
>>> =============================================
>>>
> [snip]
>>
[snip]

> I added this bug to the list and posted your explanation as well. I hope
> you won't claim your copyright :-).

Some more minor bugs Twinge and me collected throughout time:

1. Quick Pickup (the ";" command) move counter issues.
- if you use it on a pile of items, but press 0 or more times "n" and
then "q", the move counter is decreased by 1;
- if you pick up an item but afterwards press "q", the move counter is
increased but the monsters don't move;
- if you press "n" for all items, the same as above happens.

2. While staying on top of a pit, one can repeatedly press ^T (Activare
trap) to repeatedly fall into the pit (without having to climb out).

(extremely minor)
3. Trying to eat swamp hydra corpses have a too low chance of making you
sick (1/1000).

--
A blessed ElDeR cHaOs GoD figurine of wondrous power (25s) is lying
here.

AdomBot - bot, demos, sounds, cheats, and more
http://www.geocities.com/adombot/
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 11:34:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Vladimir Panteleev <pv_wer_nospam@programist.ru> wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:54:48 +0100, xhoch3 wrote:
>
>> Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>> [Spoils]
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> [Spoils]
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> [Spoils]
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> [Spoils]
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> [Spoils]
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> .
>>>> [Spoils]
>>>> =============================================
>>>>
>> [snip]
>>>
> [snip]
>
>> I added this bug to the list and posted your explanation as well. I hope
>> you won't claim your copyright :-).
>
> Some more minor bugs Twinge and me collected throughout time:
>
> 1. Quick Pickup (the ";" command) move counter issues.
> - if you use it on a pile of items, but press 0 or more times "n" and
> then "q", the move counter is decreased by 1;
> - if you pick up an item but afterwards press "q", the move counter is
> increased but the monsters don't move;
> - if you press "n" for all items, the same as above happens.
>
> 2. While staying on top of a pit, one can repeatedly press ^T (Activare
> trap) to repeatedly fall into the pit (without having to climb out).
>
> (extremely minor)
> 3. Trying to eat swamp hydra corpses have a too low chance of making you
> sick (1/1000).
>
I added them.
Is there a reason one wanted to repeatedly fall into a pit? AFAIK only
climbing out of one trains climbing, doesn't it?

--
Trying to establish voice contact ... please yell into keyboard.
Anonymous
January 20, 2005 12:54:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:34:07 +0100, xhoch3 wrote:

> Vladimir Panteleev <pv_wer_nospam@programist.ru> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:54:48 +0100, xhoch3 wrote:
>>
>>> Vladimir Panteleev wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> [Spoils]
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> [Spoils]
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> [Spoils]
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> [Spoils]
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> [Spoils]
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> .
>>>>> [Spoils]
>>>>> =============================================

[snip]

>> 2. While staying on top of a pit, one can repeatedly press ^T (Activare
>> trap) to repeatedly fall into the pit (without having to climb out).

> I added them.
> Is there a reason one wanted to repeatedly fall into a pit? AFAIK only
> climbing out of one trains climbing, doesn't it?

Not really. But you can kill yourself doing this (if you somehow manage
to get both Ctrl and T stuck while the PC is above a pit) - 3d6 damage.

That's all the bugs I remember at the moment. And I said these were
minor.

--
A blessed ElDeR cHaOs GoD figurine of wondrous power (25s) is lying
here.

AdomBot - bot, demos, sounds, cheats, and more
http://www.geocities.com/adombot/
Anonymous
January 22, 2005 12:57:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

I failed miserably to keep a straight face when I read that
on Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:34:07 +0100, xhoch3 wrote:
> Vladimir Panteleev <pv_wer_nospam@programist.ru> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 20:54:48 +0100, xhoch3 wrote:

(shop generation bug)

>>> I added this bug to the list and posted your explanation as well. I hope
>>> you won't claim your copyright :-).
>>
>> Some more minor bugs Twinge and me collected throughout time:
>>
>> 1. Quick Pickup (the ";" command) move counter issues.
>>
>> 2. While staying on top of a pit, one can repeatedly press ^T (Activare
>> trap) to repeatedly fall into the pit (without having to climb out).
>>
>> (extremely minor)
>> 3. Trying to eat swamp hydra corpses have a too low chance of making you
>> sick (1/1000).
>>
> I added them.

Could you post the link to the bug list every once in a while? Maybe
put it in your signature, until it appears in a FAQ? It hasn't been
mentioned very often and it's not very nice to have to google for the
link each time.

Having said that, I don't feel like googling for the page now, but I
feel that this list may be growing a little long. I'm with Malte on
this issue: why put the minor issues on the list? I think the list
should only be used to point Thomas to the bugs and balance issues that
we *really* want to see fixed: the ones that affect gameplay in a
very negative way. The ones mentioned in this thread crop up so
infrequently or are so minor that Thomas' bug database should do; if we
list them, we might just as well add the majority of the proper reports
frcm the database.

Léon (aka Oliphaunt)
--
"Linux is very fast.
It can do an infinite loop in about 5 seconds."
-- Linus Torvalds
Anonymous
January 22, 2005 4:29:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Léon Planken <lplanken@opposite-of-coldmail.com> wrote:

>
> Could you post the link to the bug list every once in a while? Maybe
> put it in your signature, until it appears in a FAQ? It hasn't been
> mentioned very often and it's not very nice to have to google for the
> link each time.
>
Aye, I wil try to remember putting it in my sig or mention it at every bug
list update.

> Having said that, I don't feel like googling for the page now, but I
> feel that this list may be growing a little long. I'm with Malte on
> this issue: why put the minor issues on the list? I think the list
> should only be used to point Thomas to the bugs and balance issues that
> we *really* want to see fixed: the ones that affect gameplay in a
> very negative way. The ones mentioned in this thread crop up so
> infrequently or are so minor that Thomas' bug database should do; if we
> list them, we might just as well add the majority of the proper reports
> frcm the database.
>

It is the question what we want the bug list for. If we wanted it for
Thomas I'd agree with you, however at the moment it kind of looks to me as
if he'll not look at it. As Malte pointed out he rejected a bug list of
r.g.r.a. a year ago, why should he think differently now? And the other
thing is: All the major bugs are reported quite often in the bug database,
so he knows about them already. But I doubt it is reported that the
skilled talent would do twice what is mentioned in the manual if it
worked, because nearly nobody knows about it. That's an extremely minor
bug, but something that should be fixed when the skilled talent is fixed.

The current version of the bug list is just for the newsgroup and it only
contains bugs reported in the newsgroup.

If we decide to make a bug list for Thomas, we needed to do some
redesigning. But I will wait with this kind of talk untill Thomas says he
wants a complete bug list of r.g.r.a.

By the way: Malte have you send the mail already? What did you decide to
put in?

--
Adom bug list: http://adombugs.100free.com/

Which is worse: ignorance or apathy? Who knows? Who cares?
Anonymous
January 22, 2005 4:29:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

xhoch3 wrote:
> Léon Planken <lplanken@opposite-of-coldmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Having said that, I don't feel like googling for the page now, but
>> I feel that this list may be growing a little long. I'm with Malte
>> on this issue: why put the minor issues on the list? I think the
>> list should only be used to point Thomas to the bugs and balance
>> issues that we *really* want to see fixed: the ones that affect
>> gameplay in a very negative way. The ones mentioned in this thread
>> crop up so infrequently or are so minor that Thomas' bug database
>> should do; if we list them, we might just as well add the majority
>> of the proper reports frcm the database.
>>
>
> It is the question what we want the bug list for. If we wanted it for
> Thomas I'd agree with you, however at the moment it kind of looks to
> me as if he'll not look at it. As Malte pointed out he rejected a
> bug list of r.g.r.a. a year ago, why should he think differently
> now? And the other thing is: All the major bugs are reported quite
> often in the bug database, so he knows about them already. But I
> doubt it is reported that the skilled talent would do twice what is
> mentioned in the manual if it worked, because nearly nobody knows
> about it. That's an extremely minor bug, but something that should
> be fixed when the skilled talent is fixed.
>
> The current version of the bug list is just for the newsgroup and it
> only contains bugs reported in the newsgroup.
>
> If we decide to make a bug list for Thomas, we needed to do some
> redesigning. But I will wait with this kind of talk untill Thomas
> says he wants a complete bug list of r.g.r.a.
>
> By the way: Malte have you send the mail already? What did you decide
> to put in?

We've been talking about doing it a lot of different ways, and it's kind
of up to Thomas at this point I suppose. I like the idea of working
through the public bug database to gather EVERYTHING that people have
reported as bugs (assuming Thomas agrees that this is acceptable and
that he'll actually read it if we take the effort), and list as much as
possible for Thomas so he has a nice streamlined list of all the bugs
(and balance issues), and he can decide for himself which bugs he wants
to fix. We already seperate the unimportant issues to the bottom, but
they should still be listed.

Thomas certainly already knows about the big 3, but as Malte mentioned
we should still list them to make sure he knows that even experienced
players consider stuff like the jackal issue a problem and not just a
bunch of newbies ;) 
Anonymous
January 22, 2005 4:29:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

xhoch3 wrote:
>
> By the way: Malte have you send the mail already? What did you decide
> to put in?

I have. Is it ok if I wait with a summary of what everybody said when
and if I get a reply? A bit busy at the moment.

Malte
!