P4 Big $$$

[Bubba]

I just read an article at www.sharkyextreme.com about the Asus P4T motherboard and it got me thinking about money. How much would it cost to buy a P4 system?
So I checked www.pricewatch.com and here are the prices.
P4 1.5 GHz = $850
Generic RDRam PC800 = $200 (but who buys generic?)
Asus P4T motherboard = $315
That's right, almost $1400 just for these three components and these are the cheapest prices. And don't forget you need a really big power supply and a new case for the motherboard (it won't fit in the ATX case). Then, if you are starting from scratch, you will need all the other components like a video card and a monitor.
I knew the P4 was more expensive than the TBird, but I didn't know it was this expensive. And for this kind of money, there should really be a much greater difference in benchmark scores.

I couldn't afford one even if I was an Intel fan. I'd need to take out a loan.

 

[AmdMELTDOWN]

So, it's sooooo expensive right? I remember my brother paying close to 3grand on a 286 back in the days. That was cutting edge tech! you have to pay thru the nose. Well, anyway If you can't afford the P4, then just don't buy it! Period.

 

[slvr_phoenix]

No kidding!
If you're buying the latest and greatest, expect to pay big bucks. (And I'm not talking deer.)

I can remember five or so years ago when I bought my Pentium 133 with 32mb of RAM, a SB AWE32 sound card, a Diamond Stealth video card, a gig hard drive, a 6x CD ROM, and a 17 inch monitor. I paid two grand then. Why? It was all the latest and greatest. Well ... more or less.

Who would pay two grand for that setup now?

I just recently picked up a Celeron 500 system with all the trimmings for $350, and it'd kick the pants off of that Pentium 133.

So why did the Celeron 500 system cost SOOOO much less than the Pentium 133 system? Because when I bought the Celeron 500 it was old news. It wasn't the latest and greatest anymore. Where as when I bought the Pentium 133 it WAS the latest and greatest, and I paid out the butt for it.

The high prices have very little to do with anything other than just how new the hardware is. The P4 is the most recent, so of couse it's the most expensive. The T-Bird has been out for a bit now, so of course it's cheaper.

DUH!

That's just how marketting works.

Well, unless you're trying to buy a TI-85 calculator. For some reason they cost the same (if not more because there just aren't sales on them anymore) today than they did when I bought one several years ago. I don't get that.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.

 

[Grizely1]

Give me a break, man! That's the lamest answer to a question I have heard all year.

You're comparing the prices of a 500 Celeron after it's been out two years to a Pentium 133 thats been out for like six years, and your comparing that to P4 and Thunderbird?!!

You said the Celeron 500 would kick the pants off the 133. Well the Thunderbird kicks the pants off the P4, and guess what.....

 

[Guest]

Well in all fairness P4 has about half and half decent performance. Just depends on if the stuff you does needs a lot of memory bandwidth without caring about latency.

Still, I can't see paying 3-4 times the prices on motherboard, memory, processor for something that will only give me a small edge in only a handful of applications. Only people who have their heads wedged firmly in Intel's rear end can't see that the P4 only barely matches or gets a couple percent better than an athlon (if that) for most of todays apps (I'm ignoring all the cases where athlon slams P4 for lousy x87 floating point to avoid SSE2 arguement).

Let's see triple the price for a handful of percentage points of performance... you make the call.

"The answer is not in your hair."
"I'd rather jump in the lava than be fragged by you."

 

[Bubba]

To be fair, I will wait until I find the Asus DDR motherboard and a TBird with 266FSB. Then I will add to this post and do another price comparison. It will be the latest and the greatest in probably less than a month and there is no way that the mobo, cpu, and ram will cost $1400. And there is no doubt that it will be faster than the P4.

I love watching Intel milk all these brainwashed people.
(I've got on my flame-retardant suit so let me have it)

 

[slvr_phoenix]

Do you listen to a word I say? Obviously not.

My entire point was that thay buying things when they JUST come out costs a lot. Where as buying things after they've been around for a while is considerably cheaper.

Performance doesn't matter. The pure determining factor for cost is how new something is.

DUH!

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.

 

[slvr_phoenix]

If you REALLY were going to be fair, you'd compare software that has been optimized for 3dNow! running on a T-Bird to the same software only having been optimized for SSE2 running on a P4 and THEN decide which CPU is truely faster.

Until we see bench mark results on a test like that, we can't really make an EDUCATED and FAIR deduction of which chip is faster.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.

 

[jg38141]

Brainwashed is right- such slaves to the media machine. Agreed new tech costs more. For example thunderbird 1.2 started out around 800-1100ish. However, the thunderbird worked on everything right off the bat. If I'm going to pay 1100 bucks for a chip, and let's say price doesn't matter, then I will expect it to do everything very well. It would make more since to charge less for the p4 now and more for it once it actually works as it should. It's not about forking over the dollars. It's about getting what you pay for. Am I making since here? I mean to say "blah blah... don't have the money don't get one." Is like saying if you can't afford a farari don't get one. However, if you do have the money, get one now at twice the price it will be in three months even though right now it only runs on four cylinders. While if you wait, you can get the full working engine at half price, but then it won't be the "latest and greatest."
So P4 advocates, keep looking through your intel colored glasses. Even they can only keep you in the dark for so long. And don't worry, we'll take you back when the media is done raping you.

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"

 

[Grizely1]

Just your usage of the phrase "DUH!" proves to me, and I'm sure many others, your age and brain capacity.

 

[slvr_phoenix]

I believe that anyone with even half of a brain will be smart enough to notice the fact that while my posts are thought out and expressed intelligently, yours are lacking in substance and point.

And furthermore your posts are often proving that you have a very poor ability to understand what you read and respond with any sort of a validated counterpoint. Where as my posts actually address the points of the person/post I am replying to with a debate that has enough substance behind it to make at least some people think.

Ergo, which of us do you REALLY think is looking as though they were intellectually deficient? And no, you don't have to answer that question. It was entirely rhetorical, in case you couldn't tell.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.

 

[slvr_phoenix]

That's exactly my point. Newer will always cost more.

And it doens't matter which is better, because in the future something even better than that will come out.

All that buying newer will get you is buying time before you'll have to upgrade to 'The Next Best Thing'.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.

 

[Guest]

That's not the only factor. Duron when it was new didn't cost more, same with Celeron. Age TENDS to reduce price with new technology but it's no guarantee. A 3 yr old LCD panel cost only slightly more new than one of the same specs new today. There are other factors that weigh into the price consideration so a blanket "newer costs more" doesn't stand up in face of other factors.

"The answer is not in your hair."
"I'd rather jump in the lava than be fragged by you."

 

[jg38141]

I think where we differ on this, is that I believe that newer is normally better or should be. And when it's not better, the price isn't worth the "newness" of it all. But you often argue for the future of the p4 in performance as an excuse for the current price, and that's where we but heads. I understand if you have to get a computer today, but really not a ton of people do, which is obvious due to the slow down in the pc market especially around christmas. This is unheard of. But I really don't think the p4 is the solution to anything. About the time you'd have to upgrade to a better p4 and can't beacause the chipset has changed, will be about the same time the socket A line runs out of steam and goes to something new. SSE2 is not the answer, it's just one answer- and a sophisticated one I agree- but to say faster amd chips in the next year won't be able to keep up, I have a hard time believing.
Anyway, my point is it does matter which is better, and sure something better will come out. If sse2 is all your buying, then since nothing now uses it, it is pointless to buy now. So don't buy now, wait til things use it and you have options to choose from chip wise and then buy sse2. If you have to buy a computer now, I say get the cheapest one you can, a good hard drive graphics etc, but a bare minimum chip and board. So you won't mind chunking them and getting decent parts for decent prices when they actually have a use.

"Are you saying that I can dodge bullets?"

 

[Grizely1]

"I believe that anyone with even half of a brain will be smart enough to notice the fact that while my posts are thought out and expressed intelligently, yours are lacking in substance and point."

"DUH!" is hardly what I would call being "Expressed Intelligently."

"And furthermore your posts are often proving that you have a very poor ability to understand what you read and respond with any sort of a validated counterpoint. Where as my posts actually address the points of the person/post I am replying to with a debate that has enough substance behind it to make at least some people think."

Ditto. "DUH!"

This isn't the Teen Arguing Board. Go somewhere else if you want to flame.<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Grizely1 on 12/14/00 09:15 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Guest]

P3 is still the mainstream desktop processor right now. I agree P4 is priced higher, but right now its probably targeted towards developers interested in seeing what its capable of (exploring SSE2 etc) and people who can afford one.

sv1104

 

[AmdMELTDOWN]

Are you sure about that? First, IMHO Amd is going to get so tired of selling its chips for peanuts and start charging major bucks for 'em, then ppl will complain and Amd will say to them..."well we hafta stay in bizness, do ya know how much it cost ta build a fab?...3 freaking billion dollars!"

 

[Guest]

The P4 will remain high in price until AMD(or another) release a chip with the same or higher mhz rating and start to harm the sales again...
Intel will have the non technichal market cornered with the P4 cos joe average will not look for reviews on the CPU they buy ,they know the name Intel and in all of the adverts the only number that they are given is the mhz so 1700 sound more impressive that 1200 simple as that really...
I hope AMD continue to raise themselves up because competition is good for the consumer, they have even been heplping all of you intel freaks by forcing Intel to drop prices so you should be thanking them really....

M

one of the first UK T-Bird users....

 

[cipher]

of course its pricy stuff, but prices will certainly halve sooner that you think, and since a 1.5 will hit 1.7-8 100% stable, and you just gotta love those memory bandwidth scores Im tempted to get a system myself once prices become realistic.

 

[Guest]

Of course prices are high right now! the P4 does not have any competition! Oh yea the 1.2 Ghz Athlon w/ 266FSB. BUT WHERE ARE THEY? You can walk into Circuit City and by a P4, but you just try to get the Athlon/DDR.

As soon as the Athlon/DDRs are more available (i.e. competition) then the prices should drop.

Learning has begun.

 

[leonov]

I have to laugh whenever I come to this board. You seem to be an Intel apologist extraordinary.

Why should we consider how optimised software on one system performs against optimised software for another system? If the market is such that it doesn't demand the optimisations is it not unrepresentative of normal use to insist they be used?

It is clear at the moment that the P4 is not competitive for many applciations. Yes optimisations will come along but to say that we should not compare the P4 with what is available now is not a well thought out argument at all.

It is very clear to me that you believe Flask is representative of what we can expect and want to push the point of view. Why? Because it shows the CPU manufacturer to which you are emotionally attached in a good light.

It is by no means clear that people will recompile all of their code or that such recompilation will give large performance increases across the board.

Let the market decide what is important not you. Perhaps the high MHz will impress most people and the P4 will be a success?

L

 

[Grizely1]

Perhaps the high MHz will impress most people and the P4 will be a success?

Sadly enough, I believe many people have already fallen for this. I call it the "Intel MHz trap." Many people don't realize it's not just how many MHz a processor has that makes the difference. Oh well, if Intel wants to use cheap selling schemes they can.

 

[cipher]

would that setup beat a P4 in quake3 timedemos?

 

[slvr_phoenix]

For your information I don't happen to be a fan of Intel. If I were going to buy a computer right now, I would buy a Duron with DDR SDRAM. It's simply the better option for me.

But, I wouldn't buy a system right now anyway because I'd rather wait six months to a year just to see the general improvements and the prices of what I want drop.

However, it just disturbs me to see anyone not giving a chip a fair chance. For business looking to purchase a computer right now, the P4 makes a world of sense. And for home PC enthusiasts with a lot of money who want it to go into a system that won't have to be upgraded for years, again a P4 makes sense.

Sure, the P4 can't run our present software all too well. And that makes it look like a joke if not a piece of crap ... for anyone looking to never buy new software the rest of their life.

Until AMD can come out with an SSE2 chip, you have to admit that if you want an SSE2 computer you either buy an Intel P4 now, or wait and wait and wait to get an AMD Hammer when it does finally come out.

But buying a T-Bird, Athlon, or Duron right now is just as foolish as buying a P4 if you're considering upgrading the processor in the future. AMDs chips are all going to need a serious revision to get into high GHz speeds. And that means new motherboards to support a new chip type.

People complain that the P4 is going to be quickly phased out so you won't be able to upgrade your chip, but buying any chip right now (Intel, VIA, or AMD) won't be upgradable for much longer because their architectures are reaching their maximum capacities.

I'm not for Intel. I'm not for AMD either. I'm for the smartest choice under all considered circumstances. And the only reason I seem to be on Intel's side right now is because frankly the P4 is a better option for a lot of businesses and for a lot of people who need a computer that won't need upgrading for years than anyone is giving it credit for.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.

 

[lakedude]

I must side with slvr_phoenix on this issue. With few exceptions new stuff always costs more. Software always lags behind hardware. If you want the latest and greatest “future proof” hardware to run the newest software then it will cost you. AMD fans make me nuts and seem way biased to me. Tom’s page used to be pro Intel before AMD took the lead. AMD has had their moment in the spotlight but now Intel is producing the fastest currently available CPU (again). AMD fans are complaining that software is not yet SSE2 optimized but then try to compare the p4 to DDR hardware that is barely available. For the record I am not going to buy a p4 nor am I going to buy a CPU from AMD but when the time comes will upgrade the trusty old BX mobo with a dirt-cheap p3 or cel2.

Competition is good for everybody!