Formula for HP & PP due to primary attributes (2)

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

I'm sure I posted something of this before. Got a little further now.
Google keywords as spoiler space

HP
PP
Health
Mana
Formula
Calculate
attributes
abilities
statistics
dice
level
spd
PV DV
to hit

In working on the Archmage I had to work out the formula for the amount
of pp and hp I'd have with changing attributes for a human wizard. The
formula seems to work for human fighters and troll wizards too so it's
likely it applies universally.

PP from attributes = ([(Wi-12)/8] + [(Ma-16)/4]) x (level-1)
HP from attributes = [St/2] + [(Wi+To)/2] + To_factor x (level-1)
where [] means round down and To-factor is as follows,
To To_factor
14 1
16 2
18 3
20 4
23 5
26 6
30 7
35 8
40 9
45 10
50 11
60 12
70 13
80 14
90 15

Now there's a small error in this formula somewhere because a level 1
character with all 99 stats (due to Adombot) will have 148 not 147 HP.
Now at the time I figured that the HP system was based on AD&D so this
To factor would represent the To needed to get "adds to the dice roll"
but that doesn't seem correct. I have no finished working on the
amount of HP and PP due to the "dice" which you get added on when you
increase a level. Of course once they are "rolled" you can't change
them. Te formulae above represents that part of HP and PP that you can
change by altering tyour attributes.

I suspected that the dice would correspond to the AD&D system with
wizards getting a d4 HP and fighters a d10 each level, possibly up to a
maximum level. That wasn't a bad guess (under AD&D thieves had d6 and
clerics d8). Wizards do seem to get a d4 extra HP each level (you do
NOT get a dice for 1st level oddly enough - your total HP at level one
is due to "[St/2] + [(Wi+To)/2]" part of the formula and seems to be
the same regardless of class or race. Unlike AD&D you get a dice each
level (except level 1) all the way up to 50. After about 10th level
Wizards get +1 on each dice and an extra +1 for each 10 levels as far
as I can see. Still working on this stuff.

Fighters OTOH do seem to get a d10 per level but they start getting
bonuses on the dice due to their level much sooner. Probably +1 for
each 4 levels. This seemed to work out for trolls the same as for
humans. The only reason the troll did well for HP was that it had a
high initial To which meant a high To factor.

While I'm close to the topic these figures are probably already in the
archives but just to make it easier to find them.....

PV due to attributes = [(To-16)/4]
spd due to attributes = [(Dx-11)/4]
DV due to attributes = [Dx/2]
Kick damage bonus d.t.a. = [(St-13)/2]
Weapon damage bonus = [(St-12)/2]

I'm having problems with the to hit bonus. It seems dependent upon St
and Dx and increases with every other point but it might be dependent
upon either St or Dx according to what would give the best bonus, or
something like that... also the to hit increases with level at
slightly more than 1 per level.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

DavidByron wrote:
Oh by the way while I was testing this some odd detail came up on the
question of the natural training of attributes.

natural
training
level gain
attributes
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> Wizards do seem to get a d4 extra HP each level

In testing this (by means of entering the first wildernewss square and
feeding the characters xp using AdomBot) I found that attributes were
frequently gained when levels were increased despite no actions except
'5'. ie no actions known to train anything. eg. No burden. One human
fighter gained at least one point in each of the nine attributes,
suggesting that natural training occurs for all the attributes.
Anecdotally it seemed as if the attributes that were most trained might
have been class / race dependent.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Malte Helmert wrote:
> DavidByron wrote:
> > DavidByron wrote:
> > Oh by the way while I was testing this some odd detail came up on the
> > question of the natural training of attributes.
> >
> > natural
> > training
> > level gain
> > attributes
> > spoiler space
> > spoiler space
> > spoiler space
> > spoiler space
> > spoiler space
> > spoiler space
> >
> >
> >>Wizards do seem to get a d4 extra HP each level
> >
> >
> > In testing this (by means of entering the first wildernewss square and
> > feeding the characters xp using AdomBot) I found that attributes were
> > frequently gained when levels were increased despite no actions except
> > '5'. ie no actions known to train anything. eg. No burden. One human
> > fighter gained at least one point in each of the nine attributes,
> > suggesting that natural training occurs for all the attributes.
> > Anecdotally it seemed as if the attributes that were most trained might
> > have been class / race dependent.
>
> This is certainly true for characters with the Athletics skill (such as
> Fighters). From the manual:
>
> Athletics: This is a passive skill. It is used to raise your
> physical attributes by training your muscles and movement powers.
> Whenever you raise a level, this skill influences your chance to raise a
> physical attribute. Athletics works especially well for characters with
> low (< 10) to very low (< 5) physical attributes. The skill also
> slightly influences your looks.
>
> This would not really explain spontaneous increases to non-physical
> stats, though.

Well I just tried it with a human wizard that did not have athletics
and by level 30 he gained in all 9 attributes - 15 gains altogether.
The human fighter (without athletics) gained about 25 instead of 15 by
level 30. Of course the level of the skill in athletics was just
whatever it started as (ie it was low) since I was avoiding adding to
skills that were attribute related. However if the athletics skill was
accounting for only physical attributes that might explain the
distribution seeming to be different. It could be an even distribution
otherwise.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

DavidByron wrote:
> DavidByron wrote:
> Oh by the way while I was testing this some odd detail came up on the
> question of the natural training of attributes.
>
> natural
> training
> level gain
> attributes
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
> spoiler space
>
>
>>Wizards do seem to get a d4 extra HP each level
>
>
> In testing this (by means of entering the first wildernewss square and
> feeding the characters xp using AdomBot) I found that attributes were
> frequently gained when levels were increased despite no actions except
> '5'. ie no actions known to train anything. eg. No burden. One human
> fighter gained at least one point in each of the nine attributes,
> suggesting that natural training occurs for all the attributes.
> Anecdotally it seemed as if the attributes that were most trained might
> have been class / race dependent.

This is certainly true for characters with the Athletics skill (such as
Fighters). From the manual:

Athletics: This is a passive skill. It is used to raise your
physical attributes by training your muscles and movement powers.
Whenever you raise a level, this skill influences your chance to raise a
physical attribute. Athletics works especially well for characters with
low (< 10) to very low (< 5) physical attributes. The skill also
slightly influences your looks.

This would not really explain spontaneous increases to non-physical
stats, though.

Malte

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

DavidByron wrote:
> Malte Helmert wrote:

[I don't think this is too spoily; this is mostly from the manual.]

>> Athletics: This is a passive skill. It is used to raise your
>>physical attributes by training your muscles and movement powers.
>>Whenever you raise a level, this skill influences your chance to raise a
>>physical attribute. Athletics works especially well for characters with
>>low (< 10) to very low (< 5) physical attributes. The skill also
>>slightly influences your looks.
>>
>>This would not really explain spontaneous increases to non-physical
>>stats, though.
>
> Well I just tried it with a human wizard that did not have athletics
> and by level 30 he gained in all 9 attributes - 15 gains altogether.
> The human fighter (without athletics) gained about 25 instead of 15 by
> level 30.

It is also interesting that the phrasing above says that Athletics
*influences* the chances of raising at attribute, rather than simply
saying that it *gives* you a chance to raise a stat. That would indicate
that there is a base chance of raising a stat, coinciding with your
observations.

Malte

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Malte Helmert wrote:

> DavidByron wrote:
>
>> Malte Helmert wrote:
>
> [I don't think this is too spoily; this is mostly from the manual.]
>
>>> Athletics: This is a passive skill. It is used to raise your
>>> physical attributes by training your muscles and movement powers.
>>> Whenever you raise a level, this skill influences your chance to
>>> raise a physical attribute. Athletics works especially well for
>>> characters with low (< 10) to very low (< 5) physical attributes.
>>> The skill also slightly influences your looks.
>>>
>>> This would not really explain spontaneous increases to
>>> non-physical stats, though.
>>
>> Well I just tried it with a human wizard that did not have
>> athletics and by level 30 he gained in all 9 attributes - 15 gains
>> altogether. The human fighter (without athletics) gained about 25
>> instead of 15 by level 30.
>
> It is also interesting that the phrasing above says that Athletics
> *influences* the chances of raising at attribute, rather than simply
> saying that it *gives* you a chance to raise a stat. That would
> indicate that there is a base chance of raising a stat, coinciding
> with your observations.

I don't think it would necessarily indicate that; after all, if you have
a chance at raising a stat by other means (say, having trained it), then
this would simply affect the overall chance rather than granting you one
to begin with. I don't think that the manual explanation necessarily
implies that there is a base chance, only that the skill modifies
whatever chance there already is.

--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

The Wanderer wrote:
> Malte Helmert wrote:
>
>>> Malte Helmert wrote:
>>
>>
>> [I don't think this is too spoily; this is mostly from the manual.]
>>
>>>> Athletics: This is a passive skill. It is used to raise your
>>>> physical attributes by training your muscles and movement powers.
>>>> Whenever you raise a level, this skill influences your chance to
>>>> raise a physical attribute. Athletics works especially well for
>>>> characters with low (< 10) to very low (< 5) physical attributes.
>>>> The skill also slightly influences your looks.
>>>>
>> It is also interesting that the phrasing above says that Athletics
>> *influences* the chances of raising at attribute, rather than simply
>> saying that it *gives* you a chance to raise a stat. That would
>> indicate that there is a base chance of raising a stat, coinciding
>> with your observations.
>
> [...]

> I don't think that the manual explanation necessarily
> implies that there is a base chance, only that the skill modifies
> whatever chance there already is.

Agreed; maybe my phrasing was stronger than intended. By "indicates" I
certainly did not mean "necessarily implies".

Malte

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Malte Helmert wrote:

> The Wanderer wrote:
>
>> Malte Helmert wrote:

>>> It is also interesting that the phrasing above says that
>>> Athletics *influences* the chances of raising at attribute,
>>> rather than simply saying that it *gives* you a chance to raise a
>>> stat. That would indicate that there is a base chance of raising
>>> a stat, coinciding with your observations.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> I don't think that the manual explanation necessarily implies that
>> there is a base chance, only that the skill modifies whatever
>> chance there already is.
>
> Agreed; maybe my phrasing was stronger than intended. By "indicates"
> I certainly did not mean "necessarily implies".

Okay, this does seem to be a phrasing issue - or rather two of them, one
on your side and one on mine. On your side, the meaning I think you were
intending fits better to my wind with the phrasing "could indicate"; on
my side, I meant "I don't think it's necessarily the case that the
manual explanation implies that there is a base chance", not "I don't
think that the manual explanation implies that it is necessarily the
case that there is a base chance". Both were bad phrasings; it may
hopefully be an excuse that I'm late to sleep at the moment.

(Sorry for the analysis, I just proofread a piece of documentation and
I'm in still grammar mode...)

--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.