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Egads! A new player?.....

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Anonymous
July 24, 2005 10:11:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Hello everyone. I've been playing ADoM for about a month now, but I'm
still having alot of problems. You see, I can't seem to progress past
the first few dungeons no matter what I try.

I've read enough to know that it's a good idea to start in the small
cave and try to find that one item before anything else, and I usually
survive it. But after that, sometimes I head to either the town
dungeon or the druid dungeon, and very rarely make it out alive.

Recently, I've tried heading down in the small cave. My last
character was a promising level 8 dwarven priest who had already maxed
concentration, healing, detect item status, and literacy. I think it
was dungeon level 6 when I hit a VERY nasty flash trap that stunned
and blinded me long enough for what turned out to be an exceptionally
strong troll to turn me into soup.

I've tried all manner of characters. Fighters, paladins, priests,
wizards, elementalists, mindcrafters, and a few archers all ended up
the same way. Are there any little tricks to surviving these early
stages of the game?

P.S. Have any of you played IVAN? That game got me hooked on
roguelikes, but ADoM is by far my favorite so far.

More about : egads player

Anonymous
July 25, 2005 2:07:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

> - The Carpenter quest (gained by speaking to the village elder) is easier
>than the druid quest, though the rewards for the druid quest are far greater
>(unless you don't start off with the Healing ability, in which case the
>Carpenter quest is essential. These two quests are mutually exclusive - you
>can only do one.

Correction, the carpenter quest is most certainly not essential. It is
very easy to survive without healing once you know how to. I recommend
that players start off AVOIDING the healing skill, so it seems like a
luxury once they do get hold of it (Though I find it causes more
dangers to be generated by the RNG).
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 7:02:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

"BartoHP" <Gwazi01@comcast.net> wrote:

> Hello everyone. I've been playing ADoM for about a month now, but I'm
> still having alot of problems. You see, I can't seem to progress past
> the first few dungeons no matter what I try.

Welcome, welcome! It's nice to see new fans of the game - I hope you enjoy
it as much as we all do. Try to ignore some of the rantings that go on
here - it's mostly the work of tired people who should have gone to bed a
long time ago (like me right now).

Before getting on to some of game details I'll add a bit of spoiler space -
avert your eyes if you're feeling cowardly.

..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..

> I've read enough to know that it's a good idea to start in the small
> cave and try to find that one item before anything else, and I usually
> survive it. But after that, sometimes I head to either the town
> dungeon or the druid dungeon, and very rarely make it out alive.
>
> Recently, I've tried heading down in the small cave. My last
> character was a promising level 8 dwarven priest who had already maxed
> concentration, healing, detect item status, and literacy. I think it
> was dungeon level 6 when I hit a VERY nasty flash trap that stunned
> and blinded me long enough for what turned out to be an exceptionally
> strong troll to turn me into soup.

That dungeon is very well known for its traps. It's usually best to have
gained a few levels in some of the other dungeons before venturing down
there. Also, you don't have to go down that dungeon at all - you could just
go around the river and head west to find the Caverns of Chaos the main
dungeon in the game (you'd be missing out on a lot though). At the start of
the game I always do the puppy cave and the druid dungeon before moving on
to the small cave - I don't normally bother with the blankeet and run for
the first set of stairs as soon as possible. Most characters don't make it
far early on, but oh well...

Well, I don't know how many basic tactics you already know of but here's a
few I've found have helped others starting out:

- Constantly be switching between Very Aggressive and Coward tactics where
appropriate
- Always stand to one side of a door before trying to kick it down - it
helps avoid two types of trap.
- Try and get your toughness up quick early on to raise your HP - certain
herbs can help with this
- Sometimes it's best to run through all of the staircases in an dungeon
(ignoring as many monsters as possible) down to the bottom, then go back up
to the top and fully explore every level, killing every monster. This has
the effect of generating all of the monsters at a lower level, so the
monsters at the bottom (especially the black druid for instance) will be
easier to kill by the time you get round to them - you'll gain less
experience this way though, and it only properly works with the first few
dungeons.
- The Long Stride talent is extremely useful early on, I always find.
Mostly for running away from nasty things. Strength can also be handy, if
you have the talents to spare at the start.
- Try and get some archery stuff (bows and arrows are the most common) and
practise them a lot. The best tactic for killing nasty things is to kill
them before they get close - if they do get close run away and shoot again.
Also, with archery you can be on a defensive tactic and it doesn't limit
your to hit / damage very much, whilst still giving a decent defensive boost
(very defensive and coward tactics don't let you increase your skills
though).
- The Carpenter quest (gained by speaking to the village elder) is easier
than the druid quest, though the rewards for the druid quest are far greater
(unless you don't start off with the Healing ability, in which case the
Carpenter quest is essential. These two quests are mutually exclusive - you
can only do one.
- Trolls survive the early game far better than any other race, but they
require a lot of food and become much poorer as time goes on. If you want a
character who can go some distance without dying so you can at least get
used to the game a bit more than try playing a trollish character. And not
just as fighters - trolls can make very interesting combinations with
Priest, Wizard and Healer classes, especially if you have the right star
sign.
- Dwarven Paladins and High Elven Archers are known to be very strong
combinations. Hurthlings can also be very good early on since they start
off with a few skill levels in thrown rocks, a generally plentiful weapon.
Personally I'm always strongest with grey elven wizards or priests - once
they get a decent range of spells and a few HP they're invincible in every
situation.

I'm sure there's lots more I could offer as advice... but I can't remember.
The guidebook has a lot of information, especially helpful information about
the early dungeons and where best to go. I'd recommend as a new player you
don't read too much though - exploration is one of the greatest joys in any
new game.

--
Darren Grey
Related resources
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 4:03:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

iouswuoibev@hotmail.com wrote:
>>- The Carpenter quest (gained by speaking to the village elder) is easier
>>than the druid quest, though the rewards for the druid quest are far greater
>>(unless you don't start off with the Healing ability, in which case the
>>Carpenter quest is essential. These two quests are mutually exclusive - you
>>can only do one.
>
>
> Correction, the carpenter quest is most certainly not essential. It is
> very easy to survive without healing once you know how to. I recommend
> that players start off AVOIDING the healing skill, so it seems like a
> luxury once they do get hold of it (Though I find it causes more
> dangers to be generated by the RNG).
>
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
/
Possible spoilers?
I would suggest not avoiding the Healing skill (aka get it), because it
does more than just heal hitpoints. The Healing skill makes poison and
sickness (I'm pretty sure) heal faster. This is especially important
for characters with low initial hitpoints who may be poisoned early on
by a snake from a covered pit, or an unfortunate run-in with a spider
factory (the various dark elves that summon spiders). Most starting
characters don't have easy access to a potion of cure poison, so the
Healing skill, combined with applying First Aid as needed, has the
ability to save a life.
Anonymous
July 25, 2005 9:22:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Darren Grey (darrenjohngreyFAKE@hotmail.com) writes:

> Also, with archery you can be on a defensive tactic and it doesn't
> limit your to hit / damage very much, whilst still giving a decent
> defensive boost (very defensive and coward tactics don't let you
> increase your skills though).

Yes they do. Very Defensive and Coward prevent you from training melee
skills, but missile skill gains are unaffected.

--
Curry Bucket's Controversial Web Presence:
The Pandora's Box of the Internet
http://chat.carleton.ca/~jsingh3/
or http://www.currybucket.cjb.net/
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 1:55:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

iouswuoibev@hotmail.com wrote in message

<snip advices>
> It is very easy to survive without healing once you know how to.
> I recommend that players start off AVOIDING the healing skill, so
> it seems like a luxury once they do get hold of it.

Remember, we are advicing to our new member, which don't yet know 'how
to' cope wihout healing. I agree that healing is not that important as
it seems for skilled players, but for a newbie i'd make healing a no 1
priority.
Yax the Cat-Eater
Anonymous
July 26, 2005 9:28:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

"Josh Singh" wrote:
> Darren Grey (darrenjohngreyFAKE@hotmail.com) writes:
>
>> Also, with archery you can be on a defensive tactic and it doesn't
>> limit your to hit / damage very much, whilst still giving a decent
>> defensive boost (very defensive and coward tactics don't let you
>> increase your skills though).
>
> Yes they do. Very Defensive and Coward prevent you from training melee
> skills, but missile skill gains are unaffected.

Well now, just goes to show there's always new basic things to learn...
I've never been that big on archery (which is probably why I never do that
well with non-wizards), and normally when firing arrows I'm on higher
tactics, so I wouldn't notice... Well, I guess that makes archery even more
powerful, since you can fire with high DV but no overly limited to hit and
damage... I really should try out the archer class more often.

--
Darren Grey
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 6:59:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

I've not been able to get past one dungeon, and I've been playing for YEARS,
if not solid(a few months actual play). So good job

As a note, I've decided that since I seem to die anyway my first goal is to
get the si. That thing is SO cool, and I like the fanfiction-version of it
too, though I can't seem to find it again.
---
Bow to kevin.
Please visit Gobleteer's "Metaweb".
http://gobleteer.zapto.org/
BartoHP <Gwazi01@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:e577d370.0507241711.6fd5d48a@posting.google.com...
> Hello everyone. I've been playing ADoM for about a month now, but I'm
> still having alot of problems. You see, I can't seem to progress past
> the first few dungeons no matter what I try.
>
> I've read enough to know that it's a good idea to start in the small
> cave and try to find that one item before anything else, and I usually
> survive it. But after that, sometimes I head to either the town
> dungeon or the druid dungeon, and very rarely make it out alive.
>
> Recently, I've tried heading down in the small cave. My last
> character was a promising level 8 dwarven priest who had already maxed
> concentration, healing, detect item status, and literacy. I think it
> was dungeon level 6 when I hit a VERY nasty flash trap that stunned
> and blinded me long enough for what turned out to be an exceptionally
> strong troll to turn me into soup.
>
> I've tried all manner of characters. Fighters, paladins, priests,
> wizards, elementalists, mindcrafters, and a few archers all ended up
> the same way. Are there any little tricks to surviving these early
> stages of the game?
>
> P.S. Have any of you played IVAN? That game got me hooked on
> roguelikes, but ADoM is by far my favorite so far.
Anonymous
July 27, 2005 3:56:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Gobleteer wrote:
> As a note, I've decided that since I seem to die anyway my first goal is to
> get the si. That thing is SO cool, and I like the fanfiction-version of it
> too, though I can't seem to find it again.

http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/si.html

That one?

It's in the ADOM stories section of Andy Williams' site, at
http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/adom-stories.html .

Love and coffee,
Frances (damn, I should finish Salogel...)

Love and
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 2:54:40 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

"Frances Moffatt" <torrain@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:yr-dnQIi55IxM3rfRVn-sw@rogers.com...
> Gobleteer wrote:
>> As a note, I've decided that since I seem to die anyway my first goal is
>> to
>> get the si. That thing is SO cool, and I like the fanfiction-version of
>> it
>> too, though I can't seem to find it again.
>
> http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/si.html
>
> That one?
>
> It's in the ADOM stories section of Andy Williams' site, at
> http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/adom-stories.html .

No, I'm *not* going to include that part into the IGB, since that would be
immoral. This is literacy or art. Adding more art to these stories would be
pointless anyway, more or less. Facts, OTOH, are another issue. Expressions
of the facts, whether in the form of table or description, are still just
expressions of facts, and as such shall not be protected, since that would
mean less freedom of information.

-----
Improved ADOM Guidebook - http://sweb.cz/adomgb/
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 2:54:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Pavel Mencik wrote:

>
> No, I'm *not* going to include that part into the IGB, since that would be
> immoral. This is literacy or art. Adding more art to these stories would be
> pointless anyway, more or less.

Get out of town... I can't believe this one...

Nobody said anything about you stealing these stories too, so there's
really no reason to comment on it. Even if you were going for some sort
of pre-emptive "I'm not gonna do this" to avoid possible criticism, it's
still pretty meaningless.

Facts, OTOH, are another issue. Expressions
> of the facts, whether in the form of table or description, are still just
> expressions of facts, and as such shall not be protected, since that would
> mean less freedom of information.

The only possible way that you could be right on is by claiming that it
falls under "scénes à faire" (a French term)[2]. This means that there
is only one, or there are very few ways, to express a certain idea, and
therefore copying the work is not a violation of copyright.

The reason that scénes à faire was implemented is that if it were not
true, the first person to express an idea that had limited ways to
express it would, in effect, own the idea, because nobody else would be
able to express it without violating their copyright.

However, in your case, there is no way that any competent person would
consider this to be a case of scénes à faire. There are many ways to
express the facts put forth in the Guidebook; the sheer size of the
information lends to almost limitless interpretations of it.

For example, take this quote out of Andy William's Guidebook:

[1]
"2.21.1 The Stone Giant Lord
Sometimes there is a Stone Giant Lord generated outside the High
Mountain Village walls near where the PC enters from the wilderness.
Needless to say, this can be a nasty surprise for a relatively low level
PC who has descended through the Unremarkable Dungeon at the beginning
of the game. If you can't run away, an attack with berserk tactics may
work if the PC has a decent weapon. He is vulnerable to magic."

The facts in this section are:
1) A Stone Giant Lord can be generated in the HMV.
2) Based on the level that the PC is usually at when visiting the HMV,
the Stone Giant Lord can be deadly.

There is no way that one can claim that Andy has a monopoly on the
number of ways to express these facts (I use the term monopoly loosely,
because in Economics, that isn't the correct term, but it'll work).

For example:

High Mountain Village - Threats
There is a possibility that a Stone Giant Lord may be generated within
the High Mountain Village; this is by no means guaranteed though. If
you have chosen to go straight through the SMC to the HMV, or even if
you have cleared the quests from Terinyo, the Stone Giant Lord is still
a fearsome opponent. He can throw rocks with deadly accuracy and has a
devastating melee attack. Take caution!

Or...

Upon leaving the Uninteresting Dungeon, the PC emerges high in the
mountains, two spaces away from the aptly named High Mountain Village.
This sleepy settlement isn't what it seems though; danger may be around
any corner. Shady creatures lurk around the moated city, some of which
are hostile. One creature to particularly watch out for is a Stone
Giant Lord that is sometimes generated in the village. The Dark-grey
"H" is a terrible surprise for a low-level adventurer who happens to
stumble upon it. If you do find one breathing down your neck, switch to
"Coward" tactics and run until you can't breathe anymore, because that
giant is pissed!

There you have it, two other ways to express the exact same facts. I
thouht these up in less than five minutes. If a freakin' Business major
can give two vivid and unique descriptions of the same facts, I'd like
to see what a person with an English degree could do.

From these examples, well more than just one or "a few" ways exist to
express the same set of facts. Therefore, the scénes à faire defense is
not valid, because Andy definitely does not have a monopoly on the ways
to express an idea.

Blatant copyright infringement in your case. There's no way to properly
argue otherwise.

Citations:

[1] The concept of "scénes à faire" was gleaned from the book "Law's
Order," written by David D. Friedman, copyright 2000 by Princeton
University Press. Page 130, if you're interested.

[2] The description of the Stone Giant Lord was taken from Andy
Willams's Guidebook; the version of the Guidebook that I took the
information from was compiled on March 17th, 2004.
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 2:54:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Pavel Mencik wrote:
> "Frances Moffatt" <torrain@rogers.com> wrote in message
> news:yr-dnQIi55IxM3rfRVn-sw@rogers.com...
>
>>Gobleteer wrote:
>>
>>>As a note, I've decided that since I seem to die anyway my first goal is
>>>to
>>>get the si. That thing is SO cool, and I like the fanfiction-version of
>>>it
>>>too, though I can't seem to find it again.
>>
>>http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/si.html
>>
>>That one?
>>
>>It's in the ADOM stories section of Andy Williams' site, at
>>http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/adom-stories.html .
>
>
> No, I'm *not* going to include that part into the IGB, since that would be
> immoral.

Nobody mentioned you or your stolen GB, you self-righteous prick. Now
you're defending yourself, even when nobody's attacking you. Get a grip.


--
My projects are currently on hold, but I do have
some junk at the site below.

http://www.freewebs.com/timsrl/index.htm

--
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 2:54:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Nick Strnad wrote:

> Citations:
>
> [1] The concept of "scénes à faire" was gleaned from the book "Law's
> Order," written by David D. Friedman, copyright 2000 by Princeton
> University Press. Page 130, if you're interested.
>
> [2] The description of the Stone Giant Lord was taken from Andy
> Willams's Guidebook; the version of the Guidebook that I took the
> information from was compiled on March 17th, 2004.

Whoops, I switched the numbers around in the post, and didn't change
them in the citation. The stuff about the Stone Giant correlates to
Andy William's Guidebook, and the idea of scénes à faire is from David
Friedman's "Law's Order." What if it was the other way around though...
what a thought...
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 5:21:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

> Facts, OTOH, are another issue. Expressions
>> of the facts, whether in the form of table or description, are still just
>> expressions of facts, and as such shall not be protected, since that
>> would mean less freedom of information.
>
> The only possible way that you could be right on is by claiming that it
> falls under "scénes à faire" (a French term)[2]. This means that there is
> only one, or there are very few ways, to express a certain idea, and
> therefore copying the work is not a violation of copyright.
>

You seem to be keep trying to avoid what I try to say. I agree, it is not
easy to express, but I try once more. Of course there are more expressions
possible - but doing so is uneccessary additional work. In case of GB pretty
lot of work. This additional work prevents authours from publishing, based
on published. This is very important approach - derivative work is a lot
easier than to create something from scratch . Why is derivative work bad?
It is important that works are created and improved by many people, not just
by a few able to create from scratch. Look on success of Linux, Apache etc.
Copyright "hates" derivative works, which intristically reduces freedom of
information, reduces development and knowledge.
Someone suggested stay away from official laws. *Please*. Lets discuss moral
issues, that's what I do.
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 5:21:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Pavel Mencik wrote:

>
> You seem to be keep trying to avoid what I try to say. I agree, it is not
> easy to express, but I try once more. Of course there are more expressions
> possible - but doing so is uneccessary additional work. In case of GB pretty
> lot of work. This additional work prevents authours from publishing, based
> on published. This is very important approach - derivative work is a lot
> easier than to create something from scratch . Why is derivative work bad?
> It is important that works are created and improved by many people, not just
> by a few able to create from scratch. Look on success of Linux, Apache etc.
> Copyright "hates" derivative works, which intristically reduces freedom of
> information, reduces development and knowledge.



> Someone suggested stay away from official laws. *Please*. Lets discuss moral
> issues, that's what I do.

Okay, let's discuss morals.

You took Andy William's Guidebook, without his permission, and edited
it. That's called "stealing" where I come from. Such actions are
morally reprehensible. Now, if he gave you his permission, that would
be something different entirely, but that is certainly not the case here.

You not wanting to go through the trouble of making a new Guidebook
gives you absolutely NO right to be able to steal someone else's
creation that they have worked very hard on.

The programs you have mentioned (Linux and Apache) were created
*specifically* with the notion that other people would edit it freely
and work to build it as they please. The Guidebook, however, was *not*
created in this way. It takes input from others, but Andy has the final
say on what gets in and what stays out. You have NO RIGHT, morally or
otherwise, to arbitrarily say "I don't agree with Andy, so I'm going to
edit his Guidebook and distribute this edited version." That's not even
complicated at all; it's something you learn in elementary school: if
it's not yours, you don't touch it without permission. Linux, etc.
specifically is designed to give you this permission. The Guidebook is
not. Therefore, hands off.

Here is a quote from your post:

"Copyright "hates" derivative works, which intristically reduces freedom
of information, reduces development and knowledge."

There is no way that copyright reduces development. Do you think
Microsoft would have created Windows if they wouldn't be able to profit
off of it? Would authors write at all if they wouldn't see a penny in
royalties? Copyright law was put into place in order to *stimulate*
development that would not have occurred otherwise.

Now, you can say "but they're going after profits, and the Guidebook is
not," but that's irrelevant. The Guidebook belongs to Andy Willams, not
you. Therefore, he has the right to control where and how it is
distributed. Simple as that. We're talking pre-school principles here,
not discussing the finer points of regulating soybean prices in the Midwest.

Note to everyone else: Sorry for all of this; I'm done now. No more
posts on this matter from me. I've done all I can, but it doesn't look
like moral or legal arguments matter to him. gg no re.
Anonymous
July 28, 2005 5:21:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Pavel Mencik wrote:

[that someone else wrote:]

[[that someone wrote:]]

>>> Facts, OTOH, are another issue. Expressions of the facts, whether
>>> in the form of table or description, are still just expressions
>>> of facts, and as such shall not be protected, since that would
>>> mean less freedom of information.
>>
>> The only possible way that you could be right on is by claiming
>> that it falls under "scénes à faire" (a French term)[2]. This
>> means that there is only one, or there are very few ways, to
>> express a certain idea, and therefore copying the work is not a
>> violation of copyright.
>
> You seem to be keep trying to avoid what I try to say. I agree, it is
> not easy to express, but I try once more.

From my perspective, it looks not like he's trying to avoid it, but like
he's explicitly *rejecting* it.

> Of course there are more expressions possible - but doing so is
> uneccessary additional work. In case of GB pretty lot of work.

But in the case of the Guidebook, it *is* necessary - because Andy
Williams has not given you permission to copy. That means that you are
required to either re-express the material yourself or get permission
from someone else who has already expressed it on their own.

This has absolutely nothing to do with copyright law as such; it is
purely a matter of politeness, being a nice goy, being *courteous*, and
all of that. Andy Williams, more than any other single person, created
the Guidebook (and most or all of the other creators either have
similarly expressed objections, or have largely handed their interest in
the matter over to Andy); he does not want you to copy it; thus, copying
it anyway is Not Nice.

If copyright law is excluded from the discussion, then what you're doing
reduces to a very simple matter of rudeness. You are continuing to do
something which the people involved - whose involvement and personal
interest long precedes yours - have asked, both politely and (later)
less politely, that you not do; you are thus being exceedingly rude. I'm
not sure how anyone manages to think otherwise, although some people
plainly do.

(If copyright law is *not* excluded from the discussion, then what
you're doing is *still* rude, but it's also illegal - but you've long
since rejected copyright far more explicitly than I usually do, so this
note is included mostly for completeness.)

--
The Wanderer

Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
side of it.

A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 4:52:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

> You took Andy William's Guidebook, without his permission, and edited it.
> That's called "stealing" where I come from. Such actions are morally
> reprehensible. Now, if he gave you his permission, that would be
> something different entirely, but that is certainly not the case here.

Like you cannot "steal" an idea, you cannot steal a guidebook. The
difference is, Andy can still use his guidebook as he wishes; he loses
nothing. It would be moraly wrong, even could be referred as stealing, if I
were saying the work is mine and references to Andy were removed. Well not
exactly stealing, but lying. Look at the site to see this is not the case.
So, I do *not* steal, I just copy someone else work (without permission) and
add to it.

> The programs you have mentioned (Linux and Apache) were created
> *specifically* with the notion that other people would edit it freely and
> work to build it as they please. The Guidebook, however, was *not*
> created in this way.

Why not?

> Now, you can say "but they're going after profits, and the Guidebook is
> not," but that's irrelevant. The Guidebook belongs to Andy Willams, not
> you. Therefore, he has the right to control where and how it is
> distributed.

Again, why? Doing so reduces development of the Guiddebook. Then, a lot of
the appendices layout in the original Andy's GB is my work. I was given
permission to edit it in the past. Why can't I continue? If you (Andy)
request that I stop distributing IGB, then I can request the original GB
reverts to previous state: means appendices as pure text, and no artifacts
in appendices. No notation for appendices. Now is that fair? No, it would be
purely dumb. So please everyone stop accusing me of stealing, if you don't
like that Andy didn't give permission for improvements, at least stay quiet,
please, as to not make things worse.

-----
Improved ADOM Guidebook - http://sweb.cz/adomgb/


PS: my concern is always general happiness for a player, regardles of
copying, stealing, ownership, etc. The vast majority of players don't care
about these anyway. But it drives me nuts how everyone is yelling at me,
false accusing and blaming me for trying to make things better. I still like
to have only one guidebook, but to which anyone can add.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 4:52:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Pavel Mencik wrote:
> "Timothy Pruett" <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:9GeGe.34765$Iv5.17026@fe02.lga...

<snip>

> Your ignorance is eternal. Moreover it is quite obvious that you are
> uncapable of civilized discussion. Therefore I stop discussing with you.

And you seem incapable of civilized conduct, thief. Therefore I stop
discussing with you. Besides, I've said all that I can say about this
nonsense, and, since you are too busy living in some delusional
fantasy-land where you are the champion of the people and a symbol of
moral perfection, and everyone else is a fool, I'm just going to have to
stop participating in this discussion, since it's just not worth it.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 8:30:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Pavel Mencik wrote:

> I still like to have only one guidebook, but to which anyone
> can add.

Then write one!

Once you've created your own guidebook in your own words, you have
the absolute right to determine how it's distributed. You could
even make a wiki out of it, which would make it easy for anyone to
add to it.

But you don't have the right to make that decision for Andy (or
anyone else) regarding what he's created.

-- Jeff
-- aka The Eternal Newbie :) 

--------------------------------------------------------------
"Your conscience, Joey, is something that makes you take
only one cookie, when you could have taken *two*."
-- Dennis the Menace
--------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 1:45:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Pavel Mencik <pmencik@seznam.cz> wrote:
> > You took Andy William's Guidebook, without his permission, and edited it.
> > That's called "stealing" where I come from. Such actions are morally
> > reprehensible. Now, if he gave you his permission, that would be
> > something different entirely, but that is certainly not the case here.

> Like you cannot "steal" an idea,
Right.

> you cannot steal a guidebook. The
Wrong.

Get it, already.

brojek.
Anonymous
July 29, 2005 7:08:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

The Beerslayer wrote:
> Pavel Mencik wrote:
>
>
>>I still like to have only one guidebook, but to which anyone
>>can add.
>
> Then write one!
>
> Once you've created your own guidebook in your own words, you have
> the absolute right to determine how it's distributed. You could
> even make a wiki out of it, which would make it easy for anyone to
> add to it.

There is an ADOM wiki already: http://adom.swiki.net/1

Incidentally, the people maintaining this wiki are sensitive to other
people's copyrights. There was a thread about that here some time ago,
which was about this page: http://adom.swiki.net/9.

Malte
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 6:16:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Frances Moffatt <torrain@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:yr-dnQIi55IxM3rfRVn-sw@rogers.com...
> Gobleteer wrote:
> > As a note, I've decided that since I seem to die anyway my first goal is
to
> > get the si. That thing is SO cool, and I like the fanfiction-version of
it
> > too, though I can't seem to find it again.
>
> http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/si.html
>
> That one?
Yes, that one. Actually, I'm only getting back into ADOM now that I'm
working on my own roguelike(and I've gotten answers to all of my questions
posted here on my own, sadly), this one included. But thank you.
Anonymous
July 30, 2005 12:45:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Malte Helmert wrote:

> The Beerslayer wrote:
>> You [Pavel] could even make a wiki out of it, which would make
>> it easy for anyone to add to it.
>
> There is an ADOM wiki already: http://adom.swiki.net/1
>
> Incidentally, the people maintaining this wiki are sensitive to other
> people's copyrights. There was a thread about that here some time ago,
> which was about this page: http://adom.swiki.net/9.

Pavel would be completely within his rights to create his own,
independent wiki, so long as the content is NOT taken verbatim from
Andy's site or any other without the permission of the owner.

Sadly, I don't believe there's any chance he'll choose to go this
route, preferring to delude himself into believing that he's doing
nothing wrong by copying Andy's work.

-- Jeff
-- aka The Eternal Newbie :) 

--------------------------------------------------------------
We cannot tear out a single page of our life, but we can
throw the whole book in the fire. -- George Sand
--------------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 8:59:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

The Beerslayer wrote:
> Malte Helmert wrote:
>
>
>>The Beerslayer wrote:
>>
>>>You [Pavel] could even make a wiki out of it, which would make
>>>it easy for anyone to add to it.
>>
>>There is an ADOM wiki already: http://adom.swiki.net/1
>>
>>Incidentally, the people maintaining this wiki are sensitive to other
>>people's copyrights. There was a thread about that here some time ago,
>>which was about this page: http://adom.swiki.net/9.
>
> Pavel would be completely within his rights to create his own,
> independent wiki, so long as the content is NOT taken verbatim from
> Andy's site or any other without the permission of the owner.

Ahem... sure. I certainly didn't want to imply anything else, just
provide a pointer to what's out there already and could be made use of.

Given his statement that he wants everybody to contribute, surely it'd
be easiest if he'd contribute where everybody else interested in that
kind of working model is contributing?

> Sadly, I don't believe there's any chance he'll choose to go this
> route, preferring to delude himself into believing that he's doing
> nothing wrong by copying Andy's work.

Yes, I fear this is an academical discussion.

Malte
Anonymous
August 6, 2005 4:05:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:29:39 -0400, Zachary Palmer wrote:

> (is Linux under the GPL?). Unless you have this explicit permission, you

Yes it is.
Anonymous
August 8, 2005 1:07:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Zachary Palmer wrote:
> I'm going to give my best to help handle this one. *puts on asbestos
> gloves*
>
> [snip some context from previous posts -- more IGB]
>
> You can steal an idea, depending upon how you look upon theft. It is
> not stealing to use another person's idea. It *is* stealing to take
> someone else's idea, use it, and make no mention of your sources,
> especially when that idea constitutes the majority of the work.
>
> [snip polite if late handling of IGB debate]

Zachary,

The topic of Pavel's modifications to the guidebook has been discussed
at length in the past in several threads. Search google groups for
"IGB" or "improved guidebook" or "Pavel Mencik." Your handling of the
topic was commendable, but you didn't say anything new. All of the
arguments have been hashed and rehashed /ad nauseum/.

And just for completeness' sake, Pavel does mention his sources. On
every page of his modified guidebook he mentions that it is a derivative
work of Andy's original guidebook. So that's good, but the copying
without permission is not so good.

It seems likely that there will never be any closure on this topic.

Watch those asbestos gloves, you're liable to develop cancer.

-Ryan
!