Egads! A new player?.....

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

Hello everyone. I've been playing ADoM for about a month now, but I'm
still having alot of problems. You see, I can't seem to progress past
the first few dungeons no matter what I try.

I've read enough to know that it's a good idea to start in the small
cave and try to find that one item before anything else, and I usually
survive it. But after that, sometimes I head to either the town
dungeon or the druid dungeon, and very rarely make it out alive.

Recently, I've tried heading down in the small cave. My last
character was a promising level 8 dwarven priest who had already maxed
concentration, healing, detect item status, and literacy. I think it
was dungeon level 6 when I hit a VERY nasty flash trap that stunned
and blinded me long enough for what turned out to be an exceptionally
strong troll to turn me into soup.

I've tried all manner of characters. Fighters, paladins, priests,
wizards, elementalists, mindcrafters, and a few archers all ended up
the same way. Are there any little tricks to surviving these early
stages of the game?

P.S. Have any of you played IVAN? That game got me hooked on
roguelikes, but ADoM is by far my favorite so far.
25 answers Last reply
More about egads player
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    > - The Carpenter quest (gained by speaking to the village elder) is easier
    >than the druid quest, though the rewards for the druid quest are far greater
    >(unless you don't start off with the Healing ability, in which case the
    >Carpenter quest is essential. These two quests are mutually exclusive - you
    >can only do one.

    Correction, the carpenter quest is most certainly not essential. It is
    very easy to survive without healing once you know how to. I recommend
    that players start off AVOIDING the healing skill, so it seems like a
    luxury once they do get hold of it (Though I find it causes more
    dangers to be generated by the RNG).
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    "BartoHP" <Gwazi01@comcast.net> wrote:

    > Hello everyone. I've been playing ADoM for about a month now, but I'm
    > still having alot of problems. You see, I can't seem to progress past
    > the first few dungeons no matter what I try.

    Welcome, welcome! It's nice to see new fans of the game - I hope you enjoy
    it as much as we all do. Try to ignore some of the rantings that go on
    here - it's mostly the work of tired people who should have gone to bed a
    long time ago (like me right now).

    Before getting on to some of game details I'll add a bit of spoiler space -
    avert your eyes if you're feeling cowardly.

    ..
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ..
    ..

    > I've read enough to know that it's a good idea to start in the small
    > cave and try to find that one item before anything else, and I usually
    > survive it. But after that, sometimes I head to either the town
    > dungeon or the druid dungeon, and very rarely make it out alive.
    >
    > Recently, I've tried heading down in the small cave. My last
    > character was a promising level 8 dwarven priest who had already maxed
    > concentration, healing, detect item status, and literacy. I think it
    > was dungeon level 6 when I hit a VERY nasty flash trap that stunned
    > and blinded me long enough for what turned out to be an exceptionally
    > strong troll to turn me into soup.

    That dungeon is very well known for its traps. It's usually best to have
    gained a few levels in some of the other dungeons before venturing down
    there. Also, you don't have to go down that dungeon at all - you could just
    go around the river and head west to find the Caverns of Chaos the main
    dungeon in the game (you'd be missing out on a lot though). At the start of
    the game I always do the puppy cave and the druid dungeon before moving on
    to the small cave - I don't normally bother with the blankeet and run for
    the first set of stairs as soon as possible. Most characters don't make it
    far early on, but oh well...

    Well, I don't know how many basic tactics you already know of but here's a
    few I've found have helped others starting out:

    - Constantly be switching between Very Aggressive and Coward tactics where
    appropriate
    - Always stand to one side of a door before trying to kick it down - it
    helps avoid two types of trap.
    - Try and get your toughness up quick early on to raise your HP - certain
    herbs can help with this
    - Sometimes it's best to run through all of the staircases in an dungeon
    (ignoring as many monsters as possible) down to the bottom, then go back up
    to the top and fully explore every level, killing every monster. This has
    the effect of generating all of the monsters at a lower level, so the
    monsters at the bottom (especially the black druid for instance) will be
    easier to kill by the time you get round to them - you'll gain less
    experience this way though, and it only properly works with the first few
    dungeons.
    - The Long Stride talent is extremely useful early on, I always find.
    Mostly for running away from nasty things. Strength can also be handy, if
    you have the talents to spare at the start.
    - Try and get some archery stuff (bows and arrows are the most common) and
    practise them a lot. The best tactic for killing nasty things is to kill
    them before they get close - if they do get close run away and shoot again.
    Also, with archery you can be on a defensive tactic and it doesn't limit
    your to hit / damage very much, whilst still giving a decent defensive boost
    (very defensive and coward tactics don't let you increase your skills
    though).
    - The Carpenter quest (gained by speaking to the village elder) is easier
    than the druid quest, though the rewards for the druid quest are far greater
    (unless you don't start off with the Healing ability, in which case the
    Carpenter quest is essential. These two quests are mutually exclusive - you
    can only do one.
    - Trolls survive the early game far better than any other race, but they
    require a lot of food and become much poorer as time goes on. If you want a
    character who can go some distance without dying so you can at least get
    used to the game a bit more than try playing a trollish character. And not
    just as fighters - trolls can make very interesting combinations with
    Priest, Wizard and Healer classes, especially if you have the right star
    sign.
    - Dwarven Paladins and High Elven Archers are known to be very strong
    combinations. Hurthlings can also be very good early on since they start
    off with a few skill levels in thrown rocks, a generally plentiful weapon.
    Personally I'm always strongest with grey elven wizards or priests - once
    they get a decent range of spells and a few HP they're invincible in every
    situation.

    I'm sure there's lots more I could offer as advice... but I can't remember.
    The guidebook has a lot of information, especially helpful information about
    the early dungeons and where best to go. I'd recommend as a new player you
    don't read too much though - exploration is one of the greatest joys in any
    new game.

    --
    Darren Grey
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    iouswuoibev@hotmail.com wrote:
    >>- The Carpenter quest (gained by speaking to the village elder) is easier
    >>than the druid quest, though the rewards for the druid quest are far greater
    >>(unless you don't start off with the Healing ability, in which case the
    >>Carpenter quest is essential. These two quests are mutually exclusive - you
    >>can only do one.
    >
    >
    > Correction, the carpenter quest is most certainly not essential. It is
    > very easy to survive without healing once you know how to. I recommend
    > that players start off AVOIDING the healing skill, so it seems like a
    > luxury once they do get hold of it (Though I find it causes more
    > dangers to be generated by the RNG).
    >
    /
    /
    /
    /
    /
    /
    /
    /
    /
    /
    /
    /
    /
    Possible spoilers?
    I would suggest not avoiding the Healing skill (aka get it), because it
    does more than just heal hitpoints. The Healing skill makes poison and
    sickness (I'm pretty sure) heal faster. This is especially important
    for characters with low initial hitpoints who may be poisoned early on
    by a snake from a covered pit, or an unfortunate run-in with a spider
    factory (the various dark elves that summon spiders). Most starting
    characters don't have easy access to a potion of cure poison, so the
    Healing skill, combined with applying First Aid as needed, has the
    ability to save a life.
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Darren Grey (darrenjohngreyFAKE@hotmail.com) writes:

    > Also, with archery you can be on a defensive tactic and it doesn't
    > limit your to hit / damage very much, whilst still giving a decent
    > defensive boost (very defensive and coward tactics don't let you
    > increase your skills though).

    Yes they do. Very Defensive and Coward prevent you from training melee
    skills, but missile skill gains are unaffected.

    --
    Curry Bucket's Controversial Web Presence:
    The Pandora's Box of the Internet
    http://chat.carleton.ca/~jsingh3/
    or http://www.currybucket.cjb.net/
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    iouswuoibev@hotmail.com wrote in message

    <snip advices>
    > It is very easy to survive without healing once you know how to.
    > I recommend that players start off AVOIDING the healing skill, so
    > it seems like a luxury once they do get hold of it.

    Remember, we are advicing to our new member, which don't yet know 'how
    to' cope wihout healing. I agree that healing is not that important as
    it seems for skilled players, but for a newbie i'd make healing a no 1
    priority.
    Yax the Cat-Eater
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    "Josh Singh" wrote:
    > Darren Grey (darrenjohngreyFAKE@hotmail.com) writes:
    >
    >> Also, with archery you can be on a defensive tactic and it doesn't
    >> limit your to hit / damage very much, whilst still giving a decent
    >> defensive boost (very defensive and coward tactics don't let you
    >> increase your skills though).
    >
    > Yes they do. Very Defensive and Coward prevent you from training melee
    > skills, but missile skill gains are unaffected.

    Well now, just goes to show there's always new basic things to learn...
    I've never been that big on archery (which is probably why I never do that
    well with non-wizards), and normally when firing arrows I'm on higher
    tactics, so I wouldn't notice... Well, I guess that makes archery even more
    powerful, since you can fire with high DV but no overly limited to hit and
    damage... I really should try out the archer class more often.

    --
    Darren Grey
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    I've not been able to get past one dungeon, and I've been playing for YEARS,
    if not solid(a few months actual play). So good job

    As a note, I've decided that since I seem to die anyway my first goal is to
    get the si. That thing is SO cool, and I like the fanfiction-version of it
    too, though I can't seem to find it again.
    ---
    Bow to kevin.
    Please visit Gobleteer's "Metaweb".
    http://gobleteer.zapto.org/
    BartoHP <Gwazi01@comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:e577d370.0507241711.6fd5d48a@posting.google.com...
    > Hello everyone. I've been playing ADoM for about a month now, but I'm
    > still having alot of problems. You see, I can't seem to progress past
    > the first few dungeons no matter what I try.
    >
    > I've read enough to know that it's a good idea to start in the small
    > cave and try to find that one item before anything else, and I usually
    > survive it. But after that, sometimes I head to either the town
    > dungeon or the druid dungeon, and very rarely make it out alive.
    >
    > Recently, I've tried heading down in the small cave. My last
    > character was a promising level 8 dwarven priest who had already maxed
    > concentration, healing, detect item status, and literacy. I think it
    > was dungeon level 6 when I hit a VERY nasty flash trap that stunned
    > and blinded me long enough for what turned out to be an exceptionally
    > strong troll to turn me into soup.
    >
    > I've tried all manner of characters. Fighters, paladins, priests,
    > wizards, elementalists, mindcrafters, and a few archers all ended up
    > the same way. Are there any little tricks to surviving these early
    > stages of the game?
    >
    > P.S. Have any of you played IVAN? That game got me hooked on
    > roguelikes, but ADoM is by far my favorite so far.
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Gobleteer wrote:
    > As a note, I've decided that since I seem to die anyway my first goal is to
    > get the si. That thing is SO cool, and I like the fanfiction-version of it
    > too, though I can't seem to find it again.

    http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/si.html

    That one?

    It's in the ADOM stories section of Andy Williams' site, at
    http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/adom-stories.html .

    Love and coffee,
    Frances (damn, I should finish Salogel...)

    Love and
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    "Frances Moffatt" <torrain@rogers.com> wrote in message
    news:yr-dnQIi55IxM3rfRVn-sw@rogers.com...
    > Gobleteer wrote:
    >> As a note, I've decided that since I seem to die anyway my first goal is
    >> to
    >> get the si. That thing is SO cool, and I like the fanfiction-version of
    >> it
    >> too, though I can't seem to find it again.
    >
    > http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/si.html
    >
    > That one?
    >
    > It's in the ADOM stories section of Andy Williams' site, at
    > http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/adom-stories.html .

    No, I'm *not* going to include that part into the IGB, since that would be
    immoral. This is literacy or art. Adding more art to these stories would be
    pointless anyway, more or less. Facts, OTOH, are another issue. Expressions
    of the facts, whether in the form of table or description, are still just
    expressions of facts, and as such shall not be protected, since that would
    mean less freedom of information.

    -----
    Improved ADOM Guidebook - http://sweb.cz/adomgb/
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Pavel Mencik wrote:

    >
    > No, I'm *not* going to include that part into the IGB, since that would be
    > immoral. This is literacy or art. Adding more art to these stories would be
    > pointless anyway, more or less.

    Get out of town... I can't believe this one...

    Nobody said anything about you stealing these stories too, so there's
    really no reason to comment on it. Even if you were going for some sort
    of pre-emptive "I'm not gonna do this" to avoid possible criticism, it's
    still pretty meaningless.

    Facts, OTOH, are another issue. Expressions
    > of the facts, whether in the form of table or description, are still just
    > expressions of facts, and as such shall not be protected, since that would
    > mean less freedom of information.

    The only possible way that you could be right on is by claiming that it
    falls under "scénes à faire" (a French term)[2]. This means that there
    is only one, or there are very few ways, to express a certain idea, and
    therefore copying the work is not a violation of copyright.

    The reason that scénes à faire was implemented is that if it were not
    true, the first person to express an idea that had limited ways to
    express it would, in effect, own the idea, because nobody else would be
    able to express it without violating their copyright.

    However, in your case, there is no way that any competent person would
    consider this to be a case of scénes à faire. There are many ways to
    express the facts put forth in the Guidebook; the sheer size of the
    information lends to almost limitless interpretations of it.

    For example, take this quote out of Andy William's Guidebook:

    [1]
    "2.21.1 The Stone Giant Lord
    Sometimes there is a Stone Giant Lord generated outside the High
    Mountain Village walls near where the PC enters from the wilderness.
    Needless to say, this can be a nasty surprise for a relatively low level
    PC who has descended through the Unremarkable Dungeon at the beginning
    of the game. If you can't run away, an attack with berserk tactics may
    work if the PC has a decent weapon. He is vulnerable to magic."

    The facts in this section are:
    1) A Stone Giant Lord can be generated in the HMV.
    2) Based on the level that the PC is usually at when visiting the HMV,
    the Stone Giant Lord can be deadly.

    There is no way that one can claim that Andy has a monopoly on the
    number of ways to express these facts (I use the term monopoly loosely,
    because in Economics, that isn't the correct term, but it'll work).

    For example:

    High Mountain Village - Threats
    There is a possibility that a Stone Giant Lord may be generated within
    the High Mountain Village; this is by no means guaranteed though. If
    you have chosen to go straight through the SMC to the HMV, or even if
    you have cleared the quests from Terinyo, the Stone Giant Lord is still
    a fearsome opponent. He can throw rocks with deadly accuracy and has a
    devastating melee attack. Take caution!

    Or...

    Upon leaving the Uninteresting Dungeon, the PC emerges high in the
    mountains, two spaces away from the aptly named High Mountain Village.
    This sleepy settlement isn't what it seems though; danger may be around
    any corner. Shady creatures lurk around the moated city, some of which
    are hostile. One creature to particularly watch out for is a Stone
    Giant Lord that is sometimes generated in the village. The Dark-grey
    "H" is a terrible surprise for a low-level adventurer who happens to
    stumble upon it. If you do find one breathing down your neck, switch to
    "Coward" tactics and run until you can't breathe anymore, because that
    giant is pissed!

    There you have it, two other ways to express the exact same facts. I
    thouht these up in less than five minutes. If a freakin' Business major
    can give two vivid and unique descriptions of the same facts, I'd like
    to see what a person with an English degree could do.

    From these examples, well more than just one or "a few" ways exist to
    express the same set of facts. Therefore, the scénes à faire defense is
    not valid, because Andy definitely does not have a monopoly on the ways
    to express an idea.

    Blatant copyright infringement in your case. There's no way to properly
    argue otherwise.

    Citations:

    [1] The concept of "scénes à faire" was gleaned from the book "Law's
    Order," written by David D. Friedman, copyright 2000 by Princeton
    University Press. Page 130, if you're interested.

    [2] The description of the Stone Giant Lord was taken from Andy
    Willams's Guidebook; the version of the Guidebook that I took the
    information from was compiled on March 17th, 2004.
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Pavel Mencik wrote:
    > "Frances Moffatt" <torrain@rogers.com> wrote in message
    > news:yr-dnQIi55IxM3rfRVn-sw@rogers.com...
    >
    >>Gobleteer wrote:
    >>
    >>>As a note, I've decided that since I seem to die anyway my first goal is
    >>>to
    >>>get the si. That thing is SO cool, and I like the fanfiction-version of
    >>>it
    >>>too, though I can't seem to find it again.
    >>
    >>http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/si.html
    >>
    >>That one?
    >>
    >>It's in the ADOM stories section of Andy Williams' site, at
    >>http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/adom-stories.html .
    >
    >
    > No, I'm *not* going to include that part into the IGB, since that would be
    > immoral.

    Nobody mentioned you or your stolen GB, you self-righteous prick. Now
    you're defending yourself, even when nobody's attacking you. Get a grip.


    --
    My projects are currently on hold, but I do have
    some junk at the site below.

    http://www.freewebs.com/timsrl/index.htm

    --
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Nick Strnad wrote:

    > Citations:
    >
    > [1] The concept of "scénes à faire" was gleaned from the book "Law's
    > Order," written by David D. Friedman, copyright 2000 by Princeton
    > University Press. Page 130, if you're interested.
    >
    > [2] The description of the Stone Giant Lord was taken from Andy
    > Willams's Guidebook; the version of the Guidebook that I took the
    > information from was compiled on March 17th, 2004.

    Whoops, I switched the numbers around in the post, and didn't change
    them in the citation. The stuff about the Stone Giant correlates to
    Andy William's Guidebook, and the idea of scénes à faire is from David
    Friedman's "Law's Order." What if it was the other way around though...
    what a thought...
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    > Facts, OTOH, are another issue. Expressions
    >> of the facts, whether in the form of table or description, are still just
    >> expressions of facts, and as such shall not be protected, since that
    >> would mean less freedom of information.
    >
    > The only possible way that you could be right on is by claiming that it
    > falls under "scénes à faire" (a French term)[2]. This means that there is
    > only one, or there are very few ways, to express a certain idea, and
    > therefore copying the work is not a violation of copyright.
    >

    You seem to be keep trying to avoid what I try to say. I agree, it is not
    easy to express, but I try once more. Of course there are more expressions
    possible - but doing so is uneccessary additional work. In case of GB pretty
    lot of work. This additional work prevents authours from publishing, based
    on published. This is very important approach - derivative work is a lot
    easier than to create something from scratch . Why is derivative work bad?
    It is important that works are created and improved by many people, not just
    by a few able to create from scratch. Look on success of Linux, Apache etc.
    Copyright "hates" derivative works, which intristically reduces freedom of
    information, reduces development and knowledge.
    Someone suggested stay away from official laws. *Please*. Lets discuss moral
    issues, that's what I do.
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Pavel Mencik wrote:

    >
    > You seem to be keep trying to avoid what I try to say. I agree, it is not
    > easy to express, but I try once more. Of course there are more expressions
    > possible - but doing so is uneccessary additional work. In case of GB pretty
    > lot of work. This additional work prevents authours from publishing, based
    > on published. This is very important approach - derivative work is a lot
    > easier than to create something from scratch . Why is derivative work bad?
    > It is important that works are created and improved by many people, not just
    > by a few able to create from scratch. Look on success of Linux, Apache etc.
    > Copyright "hates" derivative works, which intristically reduces freedom of
    > information, reduces development and knowledge.


    > Someone suggested stay away from official laws. *Please*. Lets discuss moral
    > issues, that's what I do.

    Okay, let's discuss morals.

    You took Andy William's Guidebook, without his permission, and edited
    it. That's called "stealing" where I come from. Such actions are
    morally reprehensible. Now, if he gave you his permission, that would
    be something different entirely, but that is certainly not the case here.

    You not wanting to go through the trouble of making a new Guidebook
    gives you absolutely NO right to be able to steal someone else's
    creation that they have worked very hard on.

    The programs you have mentioned (Linux and Apache) were created
    *specifically* with the notion that other people would edit it freely
    and work to build it as they please. The Guidebook, however, was *not*
    created in this way. It takes input from others, but Andy has the final
    say on what gets in and what stays out. You have NO RIGHT, morally or
    otherwise, to arbitrarily say "I don't agree with Andy, so I'm going to
    edit his Guidebook and distribute this edited version." That's not even
    complicated at all; it's something you learn in elementary school: if
    it's not yours, you don't touch it without permission. Linux, etc.
    specifically is designed to give you this permission. The Guidebook is
    not. Therefore, hands off.

    Here is a quote from your post:

    "Copyright "hates" derivative works, which intristically reduces freedom
    of information, reduces development and knowledge."

    There is no way that copyright reduces development. Do you think
    Microsoft would have created Windows if they wouldn't be able to profit
    off of it? Would authors write at all if they wouldn't see a penny in
    royalties? Copyright law was put into place in order to *stimulate*
    development that would not have occurred otherwise.

    Now, you can say "but they're going after profits, and the Guidebook is
    not," but that's irrelevant. The Guidebook belongs to Andy Willams, not
    you. Therefore, he has the right to control where and how it is
    distributed. Simple as that. We're talking pre-school principles here,
    not discussing the finer points of regulating soybean prices in the Midwest.

    Note to everyone else: Sorry for all of this; I'm done now. No more
    posts on this matter from me. I've done all I can, but it doesn't look
    like moral or legal arguments matter to him. gg no re.
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Pavel Mencik wrote:

    [that someone else wrote:]

    [[that someone wrote:]]

    >>> Facts, OTOH, are another issue. Expressions of the facts, whether
    >>> in the form of table or description, are still just expressions
    >>> of facts, and as such shall not be protected, since that would
    >>> mean less freedom of information.
    >>
    >> The only possible way that you could be right on is by claiming
    >> that it falls under "scénes à faire" (a French term)[2]. This
    >> means that there is only one, or there are very few ways, to
    >> express a certain idea, and therefore copying the work is not a
    >> violation of copyright.
    >
    > You seem to be keep trying to avoid what I try to say. I agree, it is
    > not easy to express, but I try once more.

    From my perspective, it looks not like he's trying to avoid it, but like
    he's explicitly *rejecting* it.

    > Of course there are more expressions possible - but doing so is
    > uneccessary additional work. In case of GB pretty lot of work.

    But in the case of the Guidebook, it *is* necessary - because Andy
    Williams has not given you permission to copy. That means that you are
    required to either re-express the material yourself or get permission
    from someone else who has already expressed it on their own.

    This has absolutely nothing to do with copyright law as such; it is
    purely a matter of politeness, being a nice goy, being *courteous*, and
    all of that. Andy Williams, more than any other single person, created
    the Guidebook (and most or all of the other creators either have
    similarly expressed objections, or have largely handed their interest in
    the matter over to Andy); he does not want you to copy it; thus, copying
    it anyway is Not Nice.

    If copyright law is excluded from the discussion, then what you're doing
    reduces to a very simple matter of rudeness. You are continuing to do
    something which the people involved - whose involvement and personal
    interest long precedes yours - have asked, both politely and (later)
    less politely, that you not do; you are thus being exceedingly rude. I'm
    not sure how anyone manages to think otherwise, although some people
    plainly do.

    (If copyright law is *not* excluded from the discussion, then what
    you're doing is *still* rude, but it's also illegal - but you've long
    since rejected copyright far more explicitly than I usually do, so this
    note is included mostly for completeness.)

    --
    The Wanderer

    Warning: Simply because I argue an issue does not mean I agree with any
    side of it.

    A government exists to serve its citizens, not to control them.
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    > You took Andy William's Guidebook, without his permission, and edited it.
    > That's called "stealing" where I come from. Such actions are morally
    > reprehensible. Now, if he gave you his permission, that would be
    > something different entirely, but that is certainly not the case here.

    Like you cannot "steal" an idea, you cannot steal a guidebook. The
    difference is, Andy can still use his guidebook as he wishes; he loses
    nothing. It would be moraly wrong, even could be referred as stealing, if I
    were saying the work is mine and references to Andy were removed. Well not
    exactly stealing, but lying. Look at the site to see this is not the case.
    So, I do *not* steal, I just copy someone else work (without permission) and
    add to it.

    > The programs you have mentioned (Linux and Apache) were created
    > *specifically* with the notion that other people would edit it freely and
    > work to build it as they please. The Guidebook, however, was *not*
    > created in this way.

    Why not?

    > Now, you can say "but they're going after profits, and the Guidebook is
    > not," but that's irrelevant. The Guidebook belongs to Andy Willams, not
    > you. Therefore, he has the right to control where and how it is
    > distributed.

    Again, why? Doing so reduces development of the Guiddebook. Then, a lot of
    the appendices layout in the original Andy's GB is my work. I was given
    permission to edit it in the past. Why can't I continue? If you (Andy)
    request that I stop distributing IGB, then I can request the original GB
    reverts to previous state: means appendices as pure text, and no artifacts
    in appendices. No notation for appendices. Now is that fair? No, it would be
    purely dumb. So please everyone stop accusing me of stealing, if you don't
    like that Andy didn't give permission for improvements, at least stay quiet,
    please, as to not make things worse.

    -----
    Improved ADOM Guidebook - http://sweb.cz/adomgb/


    PS: my concern is always general happiness for a player, regardles of
    copying, stealing, ownership, etc. The vast majority of players don't care
    about these anyway. But it drives me nuts how everyone is yelling at me,
    false accusing and blaming me for trying to make things better. I still like
    to have only one guidebook, but to which anyone can add.
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Pavel Mencik wrote:
    > "Timothy Pruett" <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:9GeGe.34765$Iv5.17026@fe02.lga...

    <snip>

    > Your ignorance is eternal. Moreover it is quite obvious that you are
    > uncapable of civilized discussion. Therefore I stop discussing with you.

    And you seem incapable of civilized conduct, thief. Therefore I stop
    discussing with you. Besides, I've said all that I can say about this
    nonsense, and, since you are too busy living in some delusional
    fantasy-land where you are the champion of the people and a symbol of
    moral perfection, and everyone else is a fool, I'm just going to have to
    stop participating in this discussion, since it's just not worth it.
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Pavel Mencik wrote:

    > I still like to have only one guidebook, but to which anyone
    > can add.

    Then write one!

    Once you've created your own guidebook in your own words, you have
    the absolute right to determine how it's distributed. You could
    even make a wiki out of it, which would make it easy for anyone to
    add to it.

    But you don't have the right to make that decision for Andy (or
    anyone else) regarding what he's created.

    -- Jeff
    -- aka The Eternal Newbie :)

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    "Your conscience, Joey, is something that makes you take
    only one cookie, when you could have taken *two*."
    -- Dennis the Menace
    --------------------------------------------------------------
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Pavel Mencik <pmencik@seznam.cz> wrote:
    > > You took Andy William's Guidebook, without his permission, and edited it.
    > > That's called "stealing" where I come from. Such actions are morally
    > > reprehensible. Now, if he gave you his permission, that would be
    > > something different entirely, but that is certainly not the case here.

    > Like you cannot "steal" an idea,
    Right.

    > you cannot steal a guidebook. The
    Wrong.

    Get it, already.

    brojek.
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    The Beerslayer wrote:
    > Pavel Mencik wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I still like to have only one guidebook, but to which anyone
    >>can add.
    >
    > Then write one!
    >
    > Once you've created your own guidebook in your own words, you have
    > the absolute right to determine how it's distributed. You could
    > even make a wiki out of it, which would make it easy for anyone to
    > add to it.

    There is an ADOM wiki already: http://adom.swiki.net/1

    Incidentally, the people maintaining this wiki are sensitive to other
    people's copyrights. There was a thread about that here some time ago,
    which was about this page: http://adom.swiki.net/9.

    Malte
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Frances Moffatt <torrain@rogers.com> wrote in message
    news:yr-dnQIi55IxM3rfRVn-sw@rogers.com...
    > Gobleteer wrote:
    > > As a note, I've decided that since I seem to die anyway my first goal is
    to
    > > get the si. That thing is SO cool, and I like the fanfiction-version of
    it
    > > too, though I can't seem to find it again.
    >
    > http://www.andywlms.com/adom/stories/si.html
    >
    > That one?
    Yes, that one. Actually, I'm only getting back into ADOM now that I'm
    working on my own roguelike(and I've gotten answers to all of my questions
    posted here on my own, sadly), this one included. But thank you.
  22. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Malte Helmert wrote:

    > The Beerslayer wrote:
    >> You [Pavel] could even make a wiki out of it, which would make
    >> it easy for anyone to add to it.
    >
    > There is an ADOM wiki already: http://adom.swiki.net/1
    >
    > Incidentally, the people maintaining this wiki are sensitive to other
    > people's copyrights. There was a thread about that here some time ago,
    > which was about this page: http://adom.swiki.net/9.

    Pavel would be completely within his rights to create his own,
    independent wiki, so long as the content is NOT taken verbatim from
    Andy's site or any other without the permission of the owner.

    Sadly, I don't believe there's any chance he'll choose to go this
    route, preferring to delude himself into believing that he's doing
    nothing wrong by copying Andy's work.

    -- Jeff
    -- aka The Eternal Newbie :)

    --------------------------------------------------------------
    We cannot tear out a single page of our life, but we can
    throw the whole book in the fire. -- George Sand
    --------------------------------------------------------------
  23. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    The Beerslayer wrote:
    > Malte Helmert wrote:
    >
    >
    >>The Beerslayer wrote:
    >>
    >>>You [Pavel] could even make a wiki out of it, which would make
    >>>it easy for anyone to add to it.
    >>
    >>There is an ADOM wiki already: http://adom.swiki.net/1
    >>
    >>Incidentally, the people maintaining this wiki are sensitive to other
    >>people's copyrights. There was a thread about that here some time ago,
    >>which was about this page: http://adom.swiki.net/9.
    >
    > Pavel would be completely within his rights to create his own,
    > independent wiki, so long as the content is NOT taken verbatim from
    > Andy's site or any other without the permission of the owner.

    Ahem... sure. I certainly didn't want to imply anything else, just
    provide a pointer to what's out there already and could be made use of.

    Given his statement that he wants everybody to contribute, surely it'd
    be easiest if he'd contribute where everybody else interested in that
    kind of working model is contributing?

    > Sadly, I don't believe there's any chance he'll choose to go this
    > route, preferring to delude himself into believing that he's doing
    > nothing wrong by copying Andy's work.

    Yes, I fear this is an academical discussion.

    Malte
  24. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 22:29:39 -0400, Zachary Palmer wrote:

    > (is Linux under the GPL?). Unless you have this explicit permission, you

    Yes it is.
  25. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.adom (More info?)

    Zachary Palmer wrote:
    > I'm going to give my best to help handle this one. *puts on asbestos
    > gloves*
    >
    > [snip some context from previous posts -- more IGB]
    >
    > You can steal an idea, depending upon how you look upon theft. It is
    > not stealing to use another person's idea. It *is* stealing to take
    > someone else's idea, use it, and make no mention of your sources,
    > especially when that idea constitutes the majority of the work.
    >
    > [snip polite if late handling of IGB debate]

    Zachary,

    The topic of Pavel's modifications to the guidebook has been discussed
    at length in the past in several threads. Search google groups for
    "IGB" or "improved guidebook" or "Pavel Mencik." Your handling of the
    topic was commendable, but you didn't say anything new. All of the
    arguments have been hashed and rehashed /ad nauseum/.

    And just for completeness' sake, Pavel does mention his sources. On
    every page of his modified guidebook he mentions that it is a derivative
    work of Andy's original guidebook. So that's good, but the copying
    without permission is not so good.

    It seems likely that there will never be any closure on this topic.

    Watch those asbestos gloves, you're liable to develop cancer.

    -Ryan
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