Hardest Variant?

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

So whats the hardest variant out there people?

And reasons why...

This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing strictures on
yourself like no arts no quests etc.

I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or playing an
Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a fire or
pots as ice or water)

--
"Omnia mors aequat"
"Death levels all distinctions"
46 answers Last reply
More about hardest variant
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    I think that this question tends to be largely irrelevent. Especially
    in variants with a wide variety of race-class combinations, such as
    Hengband or ToME, one can almost find a combination that is nearly
    impossible to win with, and declare that the most difficult.

    A better question might simply be "in general, which variant tends to
    be the most difficult", rather than focusing on specific class/race
    combinations. (I do not know the answer, the only variants I have
    played extensively are NPP and PoS).
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    1. DrAngband 2.9.9a (because 2.9.9c has greatly weakened AI)
    2. OAngband
    3. Hengband (almost tied with O)
    4. NPP (70% of chars i make go past stat gain, much easier than the above)
    5. Vanilla (no autosquelch S#XXXX)

    Pos = NPP with new classes/gameplay, AFAIK, so it´s 4, because
    not playing new classes don´t change gameplay much.
    I only play 2, 3 and 4 lately. 2 is halted till nasty ego bug is fixed.

    --
    I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
    I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
    I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
    I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
    How much difference does it make?
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

    > So whats the hardest variant out there people?
    >
    > And reasons why...
    >
    > This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing strictures on
    > yourself like no arts no quests etc.
    >
    > I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or playing an
    > Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a fire or
    > pots as ice or water)
    >
    > --
    > "Omnia mors aequat"
    > "Death levels all distinctions"
    >
    >


    1. Vanilla - I haven't beaten it, so it must be hard :p
    2. Hengband - Outdoor travel plus inflexibility when it comes to food = a
    zillion dead characters from starvation (that's why I finally went with a
    vampire)
    3. Steamband - Early game is normal, end game is kinda easy, but middle game can
    just be vicious with those OOD pits and difficult quests for uniques. (Marquis
    de la Tour on level 42??? Good luck, pal.)
    4. ToME - The one I have by far the most experience with, so it seems like the
    easiest to me. Characters can become more powerful than in other Bands I've
    played, but some of the challenges require it (good luck going after the top of
    MtDoom or the Nether Realms with a character who isn't death-on-legs).
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Atriel wrote:
    > 2. OAngband

    > I only play 2, 3 and 4 lately. 2 is halted till nasty ego bug is fixed.

    Which bug is that?

    --
    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
    "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
    One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Severoth wrote:
    > So whats the hardest variant out there people?
    >
    > And reasons why...
    >
    > This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing
    strictures on
    > yourself like no arts no quests etc.
    >
    > I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or
    playing an
    > Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a
    fire or
    > pots as ice or water)

    It's been a while since I didnt bash on Dr. White for not maintaining
    Drangband without asking anyone to take over. So yeah, Drangband is the
    hardest variant but only because it needs more work.

    T.

    >
    > --
    > "Omnia mors aequat"
    > "Death levels all distinctions"
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Aman, Elvenkind, Permanence not generating hi-resist. This is a pain
    cuz i´ve already found in my first new O char around 7 egos with
    no hi resist, including a permanence with a necro. More painful to O
    than to any other variant cuz in O its already harder to conver
    hi resists.
    --
    I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
    I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
    I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
    I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
    How much difference does it make?
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

    > So whats the hardest variant out there people?
    >

    1)Hengband - by far most difficult variant due to monster AI, that can summon
    and cast spells at you out of LOS. With limitless monster mana many summoners
    (like 's', 'Q')are simply impossible to defeat.

    (...a lot of space...)

    2) Oangband - although most monster has less HP than in V, char can deliver
    *much*
    less damage in melee, or with spells. AI is also tough, especially for warriors.
    It's difficult to find source of few basic resitances like confusion, blind.
    GWoPs(and few similar monsters) are nearly impossible to defeat in this
    variant, becouse they can tunnel, breath very powerfully, and sometimes goes in
    packs.

    3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to be
    insta-killed, compared to other variants.
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Peter wrote:
    > 2) Oangband - although most monster has less HP than in V, char can deliver
    > *much*
    > less damage in melee, or with spells.

    What? My winner druid could deliver 500+ damage to some enemies toward
    the end, with spells. My current vanilla mage (cl 50, all books) can
    deliver 400. And runs out of mana faster doing it.

    Warriors played like V warriors do poorly in O. O warriors actually want
    heavy weapons with brands and slys to get serious damage dealing
    capacity. O warriors also will have trouble with blindness and confusion
    -- covering the rests quickly is important, and having means of hasting
    and curing status is important.

    > GWoPs(and few similar monsters) are nearly impossible to defeat in this
    > variant, becouse they can tunnel, breath very powerfully, and sometimes goes in
    > packs.

    Then don't kill them -- teleport them away or even flee the level.
    Oangband makes level-fleeing darn near necessary; Oangband non-preserve
    (which I won) makes *destruction* necessary.

    > 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to be
    > insta-killed, compared to other variants.

    I think you need poison resistance much earlier than in V. Or something.

    There are also balance problems with certain monsters in certain pits
    which are supposed to be fixed RSN.

    --
    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
    "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
    One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-04-19 15:29:49, Atriel <atriel666@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > Aman, Elvenkind, Permanence not generating hi-resist.
    It's easy to fix. In object2.c, line 3071 change

    if (e_ptr->xtra & (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))

    to

    if (e_ptr->xtra && (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Serguei V. Jidkov wrote:
    > On 2005-04-19 15:29:49, Atriel <atriel666@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >>Aman, Elvenkind, Permanence not generating hi-resist.
    >
    > It's easy to fix. In object2.c, line 3071 change
    >
    > if (e_ptr->xtra & (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))
    >
    > to
    >
    > if (e_ptr->xtra && (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))

    Your definition of "easy to fix" is a bit strange. Most end users have
    Windows, no compilers installed, and won't even have a clue what the
    hell you're talking about here. And the maintainer seems to have
    disappeared again...

    Perhaps if someone would be so kind as to make patched executables
    available who does have a compiler and the know-how to do this? (I
    would, but I don't have the webspace to host executables and such. :P)

    --
    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
    "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
    One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    > Your definition of "easy to fix" is a bit strange.
    Maybe. But some bugs are hard to fix and *hard* to find. That one wasn't. :)

    > And the maintainer seems to have disappeared again...
    No, he is still with us and working on the new release. You can subscribe to the
    oangband mailing list (see the game website) to find more info about the current
    development.

    > Perhaps if someone would be so kind as to make patched executables
    > available who does have a compiler and the know-how to do this? (I
    > would, but I don't have the webspace to host executables and such. :P)
    I have only linux & freeBSD here. And no hosting space. ;-P
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Serguei V. Jidkov <jsv@gorod.bryansk.ru> writes:

    > > And the maintainer seems to have disappeared again...
    > No, he is still with us and working on the new release. You can subscribe to the
    > oangband mailing list (see the game website) to find more info about the current
    > development.

    Indeed. I'll try to hurry out the next version. Really it already
    has enough changes to be worth releasing. There are a couple of
    things I would like to finish - for example there are now 4 classes
    that have a new specialty ability choice, and 5 that do not.

    --
    Bahman Rabii
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Serguei V. Jidkov wrote:
    >>Your definition of "easy to fix" is a bit strange.
    >
    > Maybe. But some bugs are hard to fix and *hard* to find. That one wasn't. :)

    You meant easy to fix for developers then. I was thinking for an end
    user who had a copy and wanted it working *now*. An edit file hack --
    OK. Something that requires recompiling something -- nuh-uh, unless you
    think everyone is a unix geek like you are. ;)

    >>And the maintainer seems to have disappeared again...
    >
    > No, he is still with us and working on the new release. You can subscribe to the
    > oangband mailing list (see the game website) to find more info about the current
    > development.

    What? This is the *band newsgroup. I expect the maintainer's continued
    existence, net access, and interest in his variant to be evident from
    reading this froup alone. What's with forking off a mailing list that
    hasn't even been mentioned in the froup until today and taking all that
    fruitful discussion away from rgra??? I could see it with tome, maybe,
    since it's gone so far from vanilla. Better yet though would be
    rgr.tome. A(n unmoderated) newsgroup is far better than a mailing list.
    More bandwidth-efficient too.

    --
    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
    "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
    One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:<d41njm$h0o$1@news.vol.cz>...
    > So whats the hardest variant out there people?
    >
    > And reasons why...
    >
    > This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing strictures on
    > yourself like no arts no quests etc.
    >
    > I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or playing an
    > Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a fire or
    > pots as ice or water)

    1) Kamband. All sorts of overpowered monsters in there. On the other
    hand, you can get Crossbows of Extra Might +30~ so it balances out a
    bit.

    2) The versions of DrAngband where spell frequency was effectively
    1_in_1 for all enemies.

    3) Hengband from what I've heard. There's some AI which, when
    combined with general comparison of player stats vs monster stats,
    breaks things, along with the weird speed system where no matter how
    much speed you have, enemies can get double or triple moves on you and
    you don't have HP to survive it.

    In general, I think the variants with new features are harder than
    Vanilla, because Vanilla is relatively stable, you know what enemies
    are to be avoided and which aren't and what resistances are needed.
    New variants tend to sometimes go overboard with overly difficult
    enemies breathing sound for 800 damage (Gumband), crazy AI
    (DrAngband), speed systems which may not have been fully thought
    through (Hengband), psycho-ness (Kamband), and you do not necessarily
    know which enemies are dangerous and which aren't. For example, if
    you try to fight Photon in Animeband you will get destroyed, and only
    people who watch a ton of animes and play alot of fighting games will
    know what 'Genei Jin' or 'Ume shoryu' or 'AHVB' or 'Divine Comedy'
    refer to (well, the last one is actually Star Ocean reference but
    bleh).

    k2
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Twisted One wrote:

    >> 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance
    >> to be insta-killed, compared to other variants.
    >
    > I think you need poison resistance much earlier than in V. Or something.
    >
    > There are also balance problems with certain monsters in certain pits
    > which are supposed to be fixed RSN.

    RSN ?

    Sorry, I had to do it :)
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Christophe Cavalaria wrote:

    > Twisted One wrote:
    >
    >>There are also balance problems with certain monsters in certain pits
    >>which are supposed to be fixed RSN.
    >
    > RSN ?

    <http://www.google.com/search?q=jargon+RSN>

    > Sorry, I had to do it :)

    Yep - same here. ;-)

    sherm--

    --
    Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
    Hire me! My resume: http://www.dot-app.org
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
    > Twisted One wrote:
    >
    >>>3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance
    >>>to be insta-killed, compared to other variants.
    >>
    >>I think you need poison resistance much earlier than in V. Or something.
    >>
    >>There are also balance problems with certain monsters in certain pits
    >>which are supposed to be fixed RSN.
    >
    > RSN ?
    >
    > Sorry, I had to do it :)

    Real Soon Now. Could be tomorrow, could be vaporware (though *band
    maintainers tend to be fairly reliable so I'd expect it by, oh, say,
    Christmas).

    --
    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
    "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
    One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    K2_Greyhame wrote:
    > 1) Kamband. All sorts of overpowered monsters in there. On the other
    > hand, you can get Crossbows of Extra Might +30~ so it balances out a
    > bit.

    A BIT!?

    > 3) Hengband from what I've heard. There's some AI which, when
    > combined with general comparison of player stats vs monster stats,
    > breaks things, along with the weird speed system where no matter how
    > much speed you have, enemies can get double or triple moves on you and
    > you don't have HP to survive it.

    I should think that makes Hengband the single worst -- unsurvivable,
    period, since the law of averages says in a long enough game you WILL
    wind up dead from this, and *bands are very long games.

    --
    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
    "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
    One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Hey Neo, don´t be so harsh, there r several variants to play ;)

    --
    I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
    I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
    I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
    I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
    How much difference does it make?
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    > Hey Neo, don´t be so harsh, there r several variants to play ;)

    Hmmm my quick comment can be misunderstood.
    I said only to give a time to the mantainer while you play your 2nd
    favest var...

    --
    I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
    I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
    I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
    I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
    How much difference does it make?
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    > (DrAngband), speed systems which may not have been fully thought
    > through (Hengband), psycho-ness (Kamband), and you do not necessarily

    heheheheh when u said about kanband i thought it was a joke, nice
    variant.

    But i have to disagree here
    If you have max con + all resists (all resists are equally needed and
    can kill in heng) + ~25 speed + esp then a player can only die due
    to his own stupidity no matter where. Yea, i died due to my own
    stupidity like... 15 times.
    Nothing can kill you without attacking like 3 times at least if the above
    prereqs are covered... with the exception of Richard Wong and other
    time-stopping uniques (if any?) and only IF they catch you in the
    open with other monsters around.... (esp esp esp)
    And HENG speed system R0X !!!!! :)

    --
    I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
    I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
    I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
    I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
    How much difference does it make?
  22. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Twisted One wrote:

    > You meant easy to fix for developers then. I was thinking for an end
    > user who had a copy and wanted it working *now*. An edit file hack --
    > OK. Something that requires recompiling something -- nuh-uh, unless you
    > think everyone is a unix geek like you are. ;)
    Oh, I was thinking all the non-geeks are playing Diablo 2 ;)

    I've found some LCC on my machine, so if someone desperately wants to play
    0.6.2b right *now*, here is the updated executable:

    http://jsv.newmail.ru/oangband-062b-f1.zip

    I've tried it on Windows 2k/vmware, it seems to work.

    I'm too lazy to revert the patches, so I've used my current source as is. It
    means the game interface is changed according to my tastes (but no changes to
    the game balance or savefile format have been made; I'm not going to introduce
    a new variant). And of course it can mean more bugs :)

    Bugs fixed:

    + ego item generation bug;
    + weak light spells were doing no damage (without Holy Light speciality)
    + Beornings innate shapeshift now takes a turn
    + ammo in the quiver now can be selected for missile brandig

    Other bugs are still here, so I advice against playing a Necromancer with
    the Unlight speciality ;)

    Changes to the interface:

    * experience bar
    * the experience indicator is 3-modal:
    - initially it shows how many experience is needed to reach the next level
    ('NEXT:').
    - after clev 50 is reached it shows the total experience you have
    ('EXP:')
    - if the experience is drained, it shows how many is lost ('Lost:')
    * known sustains are indicated by a green star near the stat name.
    * known resistances (and some other equipment effects) are shown under the
    stats in a very cryptic form (I _like_ this feature. It reminds me of all the
    mushrooms of hallucination I've eaten :) )
    * known level feeling is shown by the colour of the depth indicator (the
    very old idea of mine, now in S and NPP).
    * ... and the level feeling is always known. :) (I really do not like the
    100 turn delay. It was introduced to prevent stair scumming, but the
    autoscummer makes it obsolete. Now the delay only forces me to count turns
    before leaving the level and this turn-counting feels exactly like scumming. :)
    In any case, I never played with the 'connected_stairs' option turned on).
    * Applyed Mogami's macro trigger patch. (You will need to replace
    lib/user/pref-win.prf to make it work. And I guess alt-key combinations are
    broken under windows.)
    * Borrowed Eytan Zwieg's code for the monster knowledge command. Some
    changes are made to make it work with the bigscreen correctly. You can also
    change monster's visual appearance here (kind of 'interact with visuals').
    * Object knowledge command... hummm, it's functional but much more work is
    to be done. It's possible to see/change squelch settings here, but for now it
    works only with flavoured objects.
    * hurt level is indicated by player's colour (the code is taken directly
    from NPP)
    * the default name for character dumps is '$NAME-$CLEV-$DLEV.txt'
    * there is a command to quickly re-read the class/race/char-specific pref
    files. It's '$' in the underlying command set and if you want to use it, you
    have to assign it to some key (if you do not know how, you probably have no
    need for this command).
    * some minor changes I either can't remember now or do not like and going to
    get rid of :)
  23. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Serguei V. Jidkov wrote:
    > Twisted One wrote:
    >
    >>You meant easy to fix for developers then. I was thinking for an end
    >>user who had a copy and wanted it working *now*. An edit file hack --
    >>OK. Something that requires recompiling something -- nuh-uh, unless you
    >>think everyone is a unix geek like you are. ;)
    >
    > Oh, I was thinking all the non-geeks are playing Diablo 2 ;)

    Not all geeks are unix geeks.

    --
    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
    "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
    One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
  24. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Serguei V. Jidkov <jsv@gorod.bryansk.ru> writes:

    > Twisted One wrote:
    >
    > I've found some LCC on my machine, so if someone desperately wants to play
    > 0.6.2b right *now*, here is the updated executable:

    Just to let you all know, the next official release will be out within
    a week or so, at least in beta form.

    --
    Bahman Rabii
  25. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Serguei V. Jidkov <jsv@gorod.bryansk.ru> writes:

    > Other bugs are still here, so I advice against playing a Necromancer with
    > the Unlight speciality ;)

    Am I missing a bug? The only problem I know of with Unlight are a
    display bug on the resistance, and that sometimes the bonuses apply
    when you are blind in an unlit space. Neither of these actually hurts
    the player...

    --
    Bahman Rabii
  26. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-04-20 04:04:00, Atriel <atriel666@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > But i have to disagree here
    > If you have max con + all resists (all resists are equally needed and
    > can kill in heng) + ~25 speed + esp then a player can only die due
    > to his own stupidity no matter where. Yea, i died due to my own
    > stupidity like... 15 times.

    Oh, really ?...
    Delivering a killing blow to Amberite Unique, which upon death summons
    Cyberdemons that have first move on you, and each fires a rocket...insta-death,
    and no chance to react...no matter how many HP and resistances you have...

    Cheers.
    Peter.
  27. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    > Oh, really ?...
    > Delivering a killing blow to Amberite Unique, which upon death summons
    > Cyberdemons that have first move on you, and each fires a rocket...insta-death,
    > and no chance to react...no matter how many HP and resistances you have...

    Oh, and the amberites :)

    --
    I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
    I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
    I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
    I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
    How much difference does it make?
  28. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    In article <d43492$1ms9$1@news.vol.cz>, Peter <KasperskiP@acn.waw.pl>
    wrote:

    > On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
    > 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to
    > be
    > insta-killed, compared to other variants.

    Yeah, this question mark is right.

    Have you played Steamband? And been instakilled? Which, just for the
    sake of discussion means for example, going down stairs and before
    having a chance to move, attacked by one or a series of monsters that
    reduce you from your full HP *and* WP total to 0?

    As much as some people would like to think so, not casting detection and
    opening the door to a 'C' pit, and having rockets destroy all the walls
    around you and then getting killed because you're exposed like a whore's
    underwear isn't an insta-death; because opening the door to a 'C' pit is
    a *bad* choice, not an insta-kill.

    Is monster damage way overpowered, along with player character
    regeneration? yes. Are resistances a little surprising and not quite
    balanced and tweaked very well? yes. Are there problems with artifact
    balance? yes.

    I, the steamband dev team, and the steamband-l members, rewrote the
    monster and artifact lists from *scratch*. From a blank file. We filled
    that white space with every monster you have killed, and every artifact
    you've found. It make take more than a couple of months to balance it to
    the level [V] is at.

    I would not have even bothered responding if I didn't receive the
    impression that you have yet to play Steamband. If you have, I'd like to
    know exactly what you mean when you say 'unforgiving' and the specific
    situation where you were insta-killed - otherwise your criticism is just
    petty and more to the point, serves no purpose in furthering the
    development of Steamband.

    Thank you for your time and attention.
    -Campbell
  29. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-04-20 17:23:32, Atriel <atriel666@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > > Oh, really ?...
    > > Delivering a killing blow to Amberite Unique, which upon death summons
    > > Cyberdemons that have first move on you, and each fires a rocket...insta-death,
    > > and no chance to react...no matter how many HP and resistances you have...
    >
    > Oh, and the amberites :)

    And of course the MEtal babble. Resist _all_ and teleportation. Except ninja's
    :P.

    --
    Mars

    Of course there is no formula for success except perhaps an unconditional
    acceptance of the RNG and what it brings.
  30. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-04-21 06:28:38, VALIS <valis@oook.cz> wrote:

    > In article , Peter
    > wrote:
    >
    > > On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth wrote:
    > > 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to
    > > be
    > > insta-killed, compared to other variants.
    >
    > Yeah, this question mark is right.
    >
    > Have you played Steamband? And been instakilled? Which, just for the
    > sake of discussion means for example, going down stairs and before
    > having a chance to move, attacked by one or a series of monsters that
    > reduce you from your full HP *and* WP total to 0?
    >
    > As much as some people would like to think so, not casting detection and
    > opening the door to a 'C' pit, and having rockets destroy all the walls
    > around you and then getting killed because you're exposed like a whore's
    > underwear isn't an insta-death; because opening the door to a 'C' pit is
    > a *bad* choice, not an insta-kill.
    >
    > Is monster damage way overpowered, along with player character
    > regeneration? yes. Are resistances a little surprising and not quite
    > balanced and tweaked very well? yes. Are there problems with artifact
    > balance? yes.
    >
    > I, the steamband dev team, and the steamband-l members, rewrote the
    > monster and artifact lists from *scratch*. From a blank file. We filled
    > that white space with every monster you have killed, and every artifact
    > you've found. It make take more than a couple of months to balance it to
    > the level [V] is at.
    >
    > I would not have even bothered responding if I didn't receive the
    > impression that you have yet to play Steamband. If you have, I'd like to
    > know exactly what you mean when you say 'unforgiving' and the specific
    > situation where you were insta-killed - otherwise your criticism is just
    > petty and more to the point, serves no purpose in furthering the
    > development of Steamband.
    >
    > Thank you for your time and attention.
    > -Campbell
    >

    I didnt write that steamband was anything, I think you have your quote wrong,
    someone else quoted steamband like that. :)

    --
    "Omnia mors aequat"
    "Death levels all distinctions"
  31. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Bahman Rabii <bahman@oangband.com> wrote:

    > Serguei V. Jidkov writes:
    > > Other bugs are still here, so I advice against playing a Necromancer with
    > > the Unlight speciality ;)

    > Am I missing a bug? The only problem I know of with Unlight are a
    > display bug on the resistance, and that sometimes the bonuses apply
    > when you are blind in an unlit space. Neither of these actually hurts
    > the player...
    In the lists of open bugs it is stated that "Unlight bonuses apply when they
    should not"
    with no indication of how harmful/beneficial it can be.
    It's the only reason I've mentioned Unlight here.
  32. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-04-21 07:24:03, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

    > I didnt write that steamband was anything, I think you have your quote wrong,
    > someone else quoted steamband like that. :)

    You're right - it was peter.
    --
    -Campbell

    - Join the steamband group by sending an email to
    steamband-subscribe@Yahoogroups.com !
    - Visit the Steamband web page, and follow the progress of Steam! (and view my
    art!) http://angband.oook.cz/steamband/
  33. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Sherm Pendley wrote:
    > Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
    >

    [Unprovoked veiled insults and flameage deleted]

    Why don't you both STFU, FOAD, and GOAT?


    ;)
    --
    Matt
    mattneu@gmail.com
  34. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-04-20 21:28:38 -0700, VALIS <valis@oook.cz> said:

    > In article <d43492$1ms9$1@news.vol.cz>, Peter <KasperskiP@acn.waw.pl> wrote:
    >
    >> On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
    >> 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to be
    >> insta-killed, compared to other variants.
    >
    > Yeah, this question mark is right.
    > Have you played Steamband? And been instakilled? Which, just for the
    > sake of discussion means for example, going down stairs and before
    > having a chance to move, attacked by one or a series of monsters that
    > reduce you from your full HP *and* WP total to 0?
    >
    > As much as some people would like to think so, not casting detection
    > and opening the door to a 'C' pit, and having rockets destroy all the
    > walls around you and then getting killed because you're exposed like a
    > whore's underwear isn't an insta-death; because opening the door to a
    > 'C' pit is a *bad* choice, not an insta-kill.
    > Is monster damage way overpowered, along with player character
    > regeneration? yes. Are resistances a little surprising and not quite
    > balanced and tweaked very well? yes. Are there problems with artifact
    > balance? yes.
    >
    > I, the steamband dev team, and the steamband-l members, rewrote the
    > monster and artifact lists from *scratch*. From a blank file. We filled
    > that white space with every monster you have killed, and every artifact
    > you've found. It make take more than a couple of months to balance it
    > to the level [V] is at.
    >
    > I would not have even bothered responding if I didn't receive the
    > impression that you have yet to play Steamband. If you have, I'd like
    > to know exactly what you mean when you say 'unforgiving' and the
    > specific situation where you were insta-killed - otherwise your
    > criticism is just petty and more to the point, serves no purpose in
    > furthering the development of Steamband.
    >
    > Thank you for your time and attention.
    > -Campbell


    I hate to fan the flames, but I want to caution you about being too
    defensive about your variant. I fully understand the dismay you feel
    when someone makes an offhand (and possibly uninformed) remark about
    "your baby", but you have to realize that you did release "your baby"
    into the wild, and part of this process is sitting back and letting
    others experience it, talk about it, and form impressions and opinions
    that you may or may not approve of-- and may even anger you. I'm
    saying this because I'm guilty of making the same mistake, turning off
    potential fans of something I worked on by being too defensive against
    offhanded comments and reviews that weren't completely positive. It's
    best sometimes to step back, let people make their comments and figure
    things out on their own, and only correct glaring factual errors
    without getting too angry or personal.

    This is a public place and people are entitled to opinions. As you are
    to yours, this is only advice.
  35. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Nice post JB - what is your variant? I'll check it out.

    CC
  36. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Twisted One wrote:
    > mattneu wrote:
    > > Sherm Pendley wrote:
    > >
    > >>Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
    > >
    > > [Unprovoked veiled insults and flameage deleted]
    > >
    > > Why don't you both STFU, FOAD, and GOAT?
    >
    > GOAT?

    http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=GOAT&btnG=Google+Search

    --
    Matt
    mattneu@gmail.com
  37. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    mattneu wrote:
    > Sherm Pendley wrote:
    >
    >>Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
    >
    > [Unprovoked veiled insults and flameage deleted]
    >
    > Why don't you both STFU, FOAD, and GOAT?

    GOAT?

    --
    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
    "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
    One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
  38. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    mattneu wrote:
    > Twisted One wrote:
    >
    >>mattneu wrote:
    >>
    >>>Sherm Pendley wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
    >>>
    >>>[Unprovoked veiled insults and flameage deleted]
    >>>
    >>>Why don't you both STFU, FOAD, and GOAT?
    >>
    >>GOAT?
    >
    > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=GOAT&btnG=Google+Search

    I'm wondering what it means as an acronym, not what the most common
    meaning is, which is what Google will tell me (as search engines rank
    pages by word frequencies and the like) and which I already know (a
    horned, hoofed, small domesticated herbivore made obsolete by the
    invention of the lawn mower, much as the automobile replaced horses) :)
    --
    http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
    "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
    One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
  39. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-04-21 06:28:38, VALIS <valis@oook.cz> wrote:

    > In article , Peter
    > wrote:
    >
    > > On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth wrote:
    > > 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to
    > > be
    > > insta-killed, compared to other variants.
    >
    > Yeah, this question mark is right.
    >

    ...sigh...you missed meaning of that mark...

    > Have you played Steamband? And been instakilled? Which, just for the
    > sake of discussion means for example, going down stairs and before
    > having a chance to move, attacked by one or a series of monsters that
    > reduce you from your full HP *and* WP total to 0?
    >

    Yes, and yes.

    > As much as some people would like to think so, not casting detection and
    > opening the door to a 'C' pit, and having rockets destroy all the walls
    > around you and then getting killed because you're exposed like a whore's
    > underwear isn't an insta-death; because opening the door to a 'C' pit is
    > a *bad* choice, not an insta-kill.
    >

    Unless you like to read spoilers you'll learn that by dying.

    > I would not have even bothered responding if I didn't receive the
    > impression that you have yet to play Steamband. If you have, I'd like to
    > know exactly what you mean when you say 'unforgiving' and the specific
    > situation where you were insta-killed - otherwise your criticism is just
    > petty and more to the point, serves no purpose in furthering the
    > development of Steamband.
    >

    Huh? Saying that variant is hard is a criticism ?
    O.K. by unforgiving I meant usage of skill points, only to find out that it
    doesn't work as expected. You don't remeber naturally, but you answered my
    post considering why Dashing Hussar doesn't have access to advanced martial
    arts skills. That wasn't my first char to find out things like that. Don't
    remeber all my insta-deaths, but one I remeber was from Nazi Panther tanks
    (BTW - could you change all nazi mosters ? - it's very disturbing and bad taste
    for me ), other ? Sigh...rockets I remeber...

    > Thank you for your time and attention.
    > -Campbell
    >

    Honestly, my post wasn't pointed at you, or people contributing to Steam. This
    is my personal opinion, it was not against your game, and you take it as a
    personal attack...sigh...someone is overreacting ? Mind you - I have won
    Vanilla, Sangband, Gumband, and few other variants. Unless I find a way to
    cope with Steam, it will be one of the hardest variants to me. Also it seems
    you ignored my entire post - Heng is *much* more difficult to me than Steam,
    and I gave up trying to win it.

    Last thing...a little more respect please....you like "(c)ampbell"...hmm ? so
    don't write "(p)eter"...

    Cheers.
    Peter.
  40. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:10:31 -0700, JBancock <jb@NoSpam.com> wrote:

    >I hate to fan the flames, but I want to caution you about being too
    >defensive about your variant.

    Yeah, VALIS, I also think you overreacted on this one.

    R. Dan Henry
    danhenry@inreach.com
  41. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    In article <d492vh$nrs$1@news.vol.cz>, Peter <KasperskiP@acn.waw.pl>
    wrote:

    > On 2005-04-21 06:28:38, VALIS <valis@oook.cz> wrote:
    >
    > > In article , Peter
    > > As much as some people would like to think so, not casting detection and
    > > opening the door to a 'C' pit, and having rockets destroy all the walls
    > > around you and then getting killed because you're exposed like a whore's
    > > underwear isn't an insta-death; because opening the door to a 'C' pit is
    > > a *bad* choice, not an insta-kill.
    > >
    >
    > Unless you like to read spoilers you'll learn that by dying.

    Or take them on by themselves first to get an idea of the range of
    damage. (yes, I am aware they cause too much damage. :-)

    > > I would not have even bothered responding if I didn't receive the
    > > impression that you have yet to play Steamband. If you have, I'd like to
    > > know exactly what you mean when you say 'unforgiving' and the specific
    > > situation where you were insta-killed - otherwise your criticism is just
    > > petty and more to the point, serves no purpose in furthering the
    > > development of Steamband.
    > >
    >
    > Huh? Saying that variant is hard is a criticism ?

    No, but saying that it's 'unforgiving' without explaining what you mean
    (and therefore allowing it to be corrected) and that it has the 'largest
    chance' to be insta-killed, without describing how you were insta-killed
    *is* a criticism - and one that is not constructive because it gives me
    no information on how to *fix* the problems you mentioned.

    > O.K. by unforgiving I meant usage of skill points, only to find out that it
    > doesn't work as expected. You don't remeber naturally, but you answered my
    > post considering why Dashing Hussar doesn't have access to advanced martial
    > arts skills. That wasn't my first char to find out things like that.

    IIRC this was a bug? That I've already fixed in the source (the code
    doesn't match the spoilers, again IIRC)

    The second issue I've got is that I can't figure out an effective way to
    display what skills are unlockable from a skill in an easy manner. The
    unlocking code is a giant switch statement making it even harder to
    display that information.

    > Don't
    > remeber all my insta-deaths, but one I remeber was from Nazi Panther tanks
    > (BTW - could you change all nazi mosters ? - it's very disturbing and bad
    > taste for me ), other ? Sigh...rockets I remeber...

    Well, Steamband is a Victorian *Pulp* and Steampunk variant - and Nazi's
    and nazi monsters are very in-theme for the pulp genera - so no.

    > Honestly, my post wasn't pointed at you, or people contributing to Steam.
    > This is my personal opinion, it was not against your game, and you take it as a
    > personal attack...sigh...someone is overreacting? Mind you - I have won
    > Vanilla, Sangband, Gumband, and few other variants. Unless I find a way to
    > cope with Steam, it will be one of the hardest variants to me.

    Part of the problem is of course the balance issues remaining to be
    corrected - I'm just saying, that in a public forum, I'd rather have you
    describe them, and help me look for ways to fix them; then have you just
    say in that same public forum that this variant is an unforgiving
    variant that has the largest chance of any variant to get insta-killed
    in.

    > Also it seems
    > you ignored my entire post - Heng is *much* more difficult to me than Steam,
    > and I gave up trying to win it.
    >
    > Last thing...a little more respect please....you like "(c)ampbell"...hmm ? so
    > don't write "(p)eter"...

    Curse the speed of my response, damn my eyes. :-)

    > Cheers.
    > Peter.

    Thanks for the response Peter.
    -Campbell
  42. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    In article <0b2h61542mqaajhmlr5hp7gum7penhpust@4ax.com>,
    R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote:

    > On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:10:31 -0700, JBancock <jb@NoSpam.com> wrote:
    >
    > >I hate to fan the flames, but I want to caution you about being too
    > >defensive about your variant.
    >
    > Yeah, VALIS, I also think you overreacted on this one.

    Noted.

    I might have been a little worked up when I wrote the message.

    > R. Dan Henry
    > danhenry@inreach.com

    -Campbell
  43. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    VALIS wrote:
    > In article <d43492$1ms9$1@news.vol.cz>, Peter <KasperskiP@acn.waw.pl>

    > wrote:
    >
    > > On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
    > > 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest
    chance to
    > > be
    > > insta-killed, compared to other variants.
    >
    > Yeah, this question mark is right.
    >
    > Have you played Steamband? And been instakilled? Which, just for the
    > sake of discussion means for example, going down stairs and before
    > having a chance to move, attacked by one or a series of monsters that

    > reduce you from your full HP *and* WP total to 0?

    Yes, I was poisoned, got heavily hit and then poison damage. This
    happened several times. In general, I finished my evening of Steam with
    a character that is going well and that suddenly gets hit in one shot,
    so I teleport and usually get killed by some little nothing.

    Once I got the hang of Steamband and this didnt happpen I got killed by
    boredom. I only play mediums, either dwarven or djinn.

    T.
  44. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:00:12 -0400 Twisted One wrote:

    TO> What? This is the *band newsgroup. I expect the maintainer's continued
    TO> existence, net access, and interest in his variant to be evident from
    TO> reading this froup alone. What's with forking off a mailing list that
    TO> hasn't even been mentioned in the froup until today and taking all that
    TO> fruitful discussion away from rgra??? I could see it with tome, maybe,
    TO> since it's gone so far from vanilla. Better yet though would be
    TO> rgr.tome. A(n unmoderated) newsgroup is far better than a mailing list.
    TO> More bandwidth-efficient too.

    You always can use gmane service (www.gmane.org) to "convert" this
    mailing list to newsgroup. It's very simple and very useful. I read some
    mailing list from this way ;-)

    serge@matveev spb ru Serge Matveev & ...
    ICQ 3575357
  45. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 04:59:07 +0400, Serge Matveev
    <serge@matveev.spb.ru> wrote:

    >On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:00:12 -0400 Twisted One wrote:
    >
    > TO> What? This is the *band newsgroup. I expect the maintainer's continued
    > TO> existence, net access, and interest in his variant to be evident from
    > TO> reading this froup alone. What's with forking off a mailing list that
    > TO> hasn't even been mentioned in the froup until today and taking all that
    > TO> fruitful discussion away from rgra??? I could see it with tome, maybe,
    > TO> since it's gone so far from vanilla. Better yet though would be
    > TO> rgr.tome. A(n unmoderated) newsgroup is far better than a mailing list.
    > TO> More bandwidth-efficient too.

    But less efficient for a maintainer who only has time to read and
    respond to feedback concerning his own variant. Most of them have
    jobs, school, and/or families taking up large amounts of their time.
    Plus they need time to actually work on the variant. They can't just
    sit around reading Usenet all day like they were on the dole or
    something. So your personal convenience and/or expectations may not
    come first.

    R. Dan Henry
    danhenry@inreach.com
  46. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    > What's with forking off a mailing list that
    >hasn't even been mentioned in the froup until today and taking all
    that
    >fruitful discussion away from rgra???

    It's meant as a personal slight against you T.O. -- he started his own
    mailing list to get away from you.

    Or did you consider that maybe he doesn't have time to wade through all
    of the bullshit that crosses r.g.r.a and wants messages that're related
    to what he's working on?
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