Hardest Variant?

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So whats the hardest variant out there people?

And reasons why...

This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing strictures on
yourself like no arts no quests etc.

I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or playing an
Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a fire or
pots as ice or water)

--
"Omnia mors aequat"
"Death levels all distinctions"
 
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I think that this question tends to be largely irrelevent. Especially
in variants with a wide variety of race-class combinations, such as
Hengband or ToME, one can almost find a combination that is nearly
impossible to win with, and declare that the most difficult.

A better question might simply be "in general, which variant tends to
be the most difficult", rather than focusing on specific class/race
combinations. (I do not know the answer, the only variants I have
played extensively are NPP and PoS).
 
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1. DrAngband 2.9.9a (because 2.9.9c has greatly weakened AI)
2. OAngband
3. Hengband (almost tied with O)
4. NPP (70% of chars i make go past stat gain, much easier than the above)
5. Vanilla (no autosquelch S#XXXX)

Pos = NPP with new classes/gameplay, AFAIK, so it´s 4, because
not playing new classes don´t change gameplay much.
I only play 2, 3 and 4 lately. 2 is halted till nasty ego bug is fixed.

--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?
 

elliott

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On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> So whats the hardest variant out there people?
>
> And reasons why...
>
> This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing strictures on
> yourself like no arts no quests etc.
>
> I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or playing an
> Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a fire or
> pots as ice or water)
>
> --
> "Omnia mors aequat"
> "Death levels all distinctions"
>
>


1. Vanilla - I haven't beaten it, so it must be hard :p
2. Hengband - Outdoor travel plus inflexibility when it comes to food = a
zillion dead characters from starvation (that's why I finally went with a
vampire)
3. Steamband - Early game is normal, end game is kinda easy, but middle game can
just be vicious with those OOD pits and difficult quests for uniques. (Marquis
de la Tour on level 42??? Good luck, pal.)
4. ToME - The one I have by far the most experience with, so it seems like the
easiest to me. Characters can become more powerful than in other Bands I've
played, but some of the challenges require it (good luck going after the top of
MtDoom or the Nether Realms with a character who isn't death-on-legs).
 
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Atriel wrote:
> 2. OAngband

> I only play 2, 3 and 4 lately. 2 is halted till nasty ego bug is fixed.

Which bug is that?

--
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Severoth wrote:
> So whats the hardest variant out there people?
>
> And reasons why...
>
> This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing
strictures on
> yourself like no arts no quests etc.
>
> I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or
playing an
> Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a
fire or
> pots as ice or water)

It's been a while since I didnt bash on Dr. White for not maintaining
Drangband without asking anyone to take over. So yeah, Drangband is the
hardest variant but only because it needs more work.

T.

>
> --
> "Omnia mors aequat"
> "Death levels all distinctions"
 
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Aman, Elvenkind, Permanence not generating hi-resist. This is a pain
cuz i´ve already found in my first new O char around 7 egos with
no hi resist, including a permanence with a necro. More painful to O
than to any other variant cuz in O its already harder to conver
hi resists.
--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?
 

peter

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On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> So whats the hardest variant out there people?
>

1)Hengband - by far most difficult variant due to monster AI, that can summon
and cast spells at you out of LOS. With limitless monster mana many summoners
(like 's', 'Q')are simply impossible to defeat.

(...a lot of space...)

2) Oangband - although most monster has less HP than in V, char can deliver
*much*
less damage in melee, or with spells. AI is also tough, especially for warriors.
It's difficult to find source of few basic resitances like confusion, blind.
GWoPs(and few similar monsters) are nearly impossible to defeat in this
variant, becouse they can tunnel, breath very powerfully, and sometimes goes in
packs.

3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to be
insta-killed, compared to other variants.
 
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Peter wrote:
> 2) Oangband - although most monster has less HP than in V, char can deliver
> *much*
> less damage in melee, or with spells.

What? My winner druid could deliver 500+ damage to some enemies toward
the end, with spells. My current vanilla mage (cl 50, all books) can
deliver 400. And runs out of mana faster doing it.

Warriors played like V warriors do poorly in O. O warriors actually want
heavy weapons with brands and slys to get serious damage dealing
capacity. O warriors also will have trouble with blindness and confusion
-- covering the rests quickly is important, and having means of hasting
and curing status is important.

> GWoPs(and few similar monsters) are nearly impossible to defeat in this
> variant, becouse they can tunnel, breath very powerfully, and sometimes goes in
> packs.

Then don't kill them -- teleport them away or even flee the level.
Oangband makes level-fleeing darn near necessary; Oangband non-preserve
(which I won) makes *destruction* necessary.

> 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to be
> insta-killed, compared to other variants.

I think you need poison resistance much earlier than in V. Or something.

There are also balance problems with certain monsters in certain pits
which are supposed to be fixed RSN.

--
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Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
 
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On 2005-04-19 15:29:49, Atriel <atriel666@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Aman, Elvenkind, Permanence not generating hi-resist.
It's easy to fix. In object2.c, line 3071 change

if (e_ptr->xtra & (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))

to

if (e_ptr->xtra && (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))
 
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Serguei V. Jidkov wrote:
> On 2005-04-19 15:29:49, Atriel <atriel666@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Aman, Elvenkind, Permanence not generating hi-resist.
>
> It's easy to fix. In object2.c, line 3071 change
>
> if (e_ptr->xtra & (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))
>
> to
>
> if (e_ptr->xtra && (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))

Your definition of "easy to fix" is a bit strange. Most end users have
Windows, no compilers installed, and won't even have a clue what the
hell you're talking about here. And the maintainer seems to have
disappeared again...

Perhaps if someone would be so kind as to make patched executables
available who does have a compiler and the know-how to do this? (I
would, but I don't have the webspace to host executables and such. :p)

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
 
G

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> Your definition of "easy to fix" is a bit strange.
Maybe. But some bugs are hard to fix and *hard* to find. That one wasn't. :)

> And the maintainer seems to have disappeared again...
No, he is still with us and working on the new release. You can subscribe to the
oangband mailing list (see the game website) to find more info about the current
development.

> Perhaps if someone would be so kind as to make patched executables
> available who does have a compiler and the know-how to do this? (I
> would, but I don't have the webspace to host executables and such. :p)
I have only linux & freeBSD here. And no hosting space. ;-P
 
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Serguei V. Jidkov <jsv@gorod.bryansk.ru> writes:

> > And the maintainer seems to have disappeared again...
> No, he is still with us and working on the new release. You can subscribe to the
> oangband mailing list (see the game website) to find more info about the current
> development.

Indeed. I'll try to hurry out the next version. Really it already
has enough changes to be worth releasing. There are a couple of
things I would like to finish - for example there are now 4 classes
that have a new specialty ability choice, and 5 that do not.

--
Bahman Rabii
 
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Serguei V. Jidkov wrote:
>>Your definition of "easy to fix" is a bit strange.
>
> Maybe. But some bugs are hard to fix and *hard* to find. That one wasn't. :)

You meant easy to fix for developers then. I was thinking for an end
user who had a copy and wanted it working *now*. An edit file hack --
OK. Something that requires recompiling something -- nuh-uh, unless you
think everyone is a unix geek like you are. ;)

>>And the maintainer seems to have disappeared again...
>
> No, he is still with us and working on the new release. You can subscribe to the
> oangband mailing list (see the game website) to find more info about the current
> development.

What? This is the *band newsgroup. I expect the maintainer's continued
existence, net access, and interest in his variant to be evident from
reading this froup alone. What's with forking off a mailing list that
hasn't even been mentioned in the froup until today and taking all that
fruitful discussion away from rgra??? I could see it with tome, maybe,
since it's gone so far from vanilla. Better yet though would be
rgr.tome. A(n unmoderated) newsgroup is far better than a mailing list.
More bandwidth-efficient too.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
 
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Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:<d41njm$h0o$1@news.vol.cz>...
> So whats the hardest variant out there people?
>
> And reasons why...
>
> This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing strictures on
> yourself like no arts no quests etc.
>
> I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or playing an
> Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a fire or
> pots as ice or water)

1) Kamband. All sorts of overpowered monsters in there. On the other
hand, you can get Crossbows of Extra Might +30~ so it balances out a
bit.

2) The versions of DrAngband where spell frequency was effectively
1_in_1 for all enemies.

3) Hengband from what I've heard. There's some AI which, when
combined with general comparison of player stats vs monster stats,
breaks things, along with the weird speed system where no matter how
much speed you have, enemies can get double or triple moves on you and
you don't have HP to survive it.

In general, I think the variants with new features are harder than
Vanilla, because Vanilla is relatively stable, you know what enemies
are to be avoided and which aren't and what resistances are needed.
New variants tend to sometimes go overboard with overly difficult
enemies breathing sound for 800 damage (Gumband), crazy AI
(DrAngband), speed systems which may not have been fully thought
through (Hengband), psycho-ness (Kamband), and you do not necessarily
know which enemies are dangerous and which aren't. For example, if
you try to fight Photon in Animeband you will get destroyed, and only
people who watch a ton of animes and play alot of fighting games will
know what 'Genei Jin' or 'Ume shoryu' or 'AHVB' or 'Divine Comedy'
refer to (well, the last one is actually Star Ocean reference but
bleh).

k2
 
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Twisted One wrote:

>> 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance
>> to be insta-killed, compared to other variants.
>
> I think you need poison resistance much earlier than in V. Or something.
>
> There are also balance problems with certain monsters in certain pits
> which are supposed to be fixed RSN.

RSN ?

Sorry, I had to do it :)
 
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Christophe Cavalaria wrote:

> Twisted One wrote:
>
>>There are also balance problems with certain monsters in certain pits
>>which are supposed to be fixed RSN.
>
> RSN ?

<http://www.google.com/search?q=jargon+RSN>

> Sorry, I had to do it :)

Yep - same here. ;-)

sherm--

--
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Hire me! My resume: http://www.dot-app.org
 
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Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
> Twisted One wrote:
>
>>>3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance
>>>to be insta-killed, compared to other variants.
>>
>>I think you need poison resistance much earlier than in V. Or something.
>>
>>There are also balance problems with certain monsters in certain pits
>>which are supposed to be fixed RSN.
>
> RSN ?
>
> Sorry, I had to do it :)

Real Soon Now. Could be tomorrow, could be vaporware (though *band
maintainers tend to be fairly reliable so I'd expect it by, oh, say,
Christmas).

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K2_Greyhame wrote:
> 1) Kamband. All sorts of overpowered monsters in there. On the other
> hand, you can get Crossbows of Extra Might +30~ so it balances out a
> bit.

A BIT!?

> 3) Hengband from what I've heard. There's some AI which, when
> combined with general comparison of player stats vs monster stats,
> breaks things, along with the weird speed system where no matter how
> much speed you have, enemies can get double or triple moves on you and
> you don't have HP to survive it.

I should think that makes Hengband the single worst -- unsurvivable,
period, since the law of averages says in a long enough game you WILL
wind up dead from this, and *bands are very long games.

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Hey Neo, don´t be so harsh, there r several variants to play ;)

--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?
 
G

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> Hey Neo, don´t be so harsh, there r several variants to play ;)

Hmmm my quick comment can be misunderstood.
I said only to give a time to the mantainer while you play your 2nd
favest var...

--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?
 
G

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> (DrAngband), speed systems which may not have been fully thought
> through (Hengband), psycho-ness (Kamband), and you do not necessarily

heheheheh when u said about kanband i thought it was a joke, nice
variant.

But i have to disagree here
If you have max con + all resists (all resists are equally needed and
can kill in heng) + ~25 speed + esp then a player can only die due
to his own stupidity no matter where. Yea, i died due to my own
stupidity like... 15 times.
Nothing can kill you without attacking like 3 times at least if the above
prereqs are covered... with the exception of Richard Wong and other
time-stopping uniques (if any?) and only IF they catch you in the
open with other monsters around.... (esp esp esp)
And HENG speed system R0X !!!!! :)

--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?
 
G

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Twisted One wrote:

> You meant easy to fix for developers then. I was thinking for an end
> user who had a copy and wanted it working *now*. An edit file hack --
> OK. Something that requires recompiling something -- nuh-uh, unless you
> think everyone is a unix geek like you are. ;)
Oh, I was thinking all the non-geeks are playing Diablo 2 ;)

I've found some LCC on my machine, so if someone desperately wants to play
0.6.2b right *now*, here is the updated executable:

http://jsv.newmail.ru/oangband-062b-f1.zip

I've tried it on Windows 2k/vmware, it seems to work.

I'm too lazy to revert the patches, so I've used my current source as is. It
means the game interface is changed according to my tastes (but no changes to
the game balance or savefile format have been made; I'm not going to introduce
a new variant). And of course it can mean more bugs :)

Bugs fixed:

+ ego item generation bug;
+ weak light spells were doing no damage (without Holy Light speciality)
+ Beornings innate shapeshift now takes a turn
+ ammo in the quiver now can be selected for missile brandig

Other bugs are still here, so I advice against playing a Necromancer with
the Unlight speciality ;)

Changes to the interface:

* experience bar
* the experience indicator is 3-modal:
- initially it shows how many experience is needed to reach the next level
('NEXT:').
- after clev 50 is reached it shows the total experience you have
('EXP:')
- if the experience is drained, it shows how many is lost ('Lost:')
* known sustains are indicated by a green star near the stat name.
* known resistances (and some other equipment effects) are shown under the
stats in a very cryptic form (I _like_ this feature. It reminds me of all the
mushrooms of hallucination I've eaten :) )
* known level feeling is shown by the colour of the depth indicator (the
very old idea of mine, now in S and NPP).
* ... and the level feeling is always known. :) (I really do not like the
100 turn delay. It was introduced to prevent stair scumming, but the
autoscummer makes it obsolete. Now the delay only forces me to count turns
before leaving the level and this turn-counting feels exactly like scumming. :)
In any case, I never played with the 'connected_stairs' option turned on).
* Applyed Mogami's macro trigger patch. (You will need to replace
lib/user/pref-win.prf to make it work. And I guess alt-key combinations are
broken under windows.)
* Borrowed Eytan Zwieg's code for the monster knowledge command. Some
changes are made to make it work with the bigscreen correctly. You can also
change monster's visual appearance here (kind of 'interact with visuals').
* Object knowledge command... hummm, it's functional but much more work is
to be done. It's possible to see/change squelch settings here, but for now it
works only with flavoured objects.
* hurt level is indicated by player's colour (the code is taken directly
from NPP)
* the default name for character dumps is '$NAME-$CLEV-$DLEV.txt'
* there is a command to quickly re-read the class/race/char-specific pref
files. It's '$' in the underlying command set and if you want to use it, you
have to assign it to some key (if you do not know how, you probably have no
need for this command).
* some minor changes I either can't remember now or do not like and going to
get rid of :)
 
G

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Serguei V. Jidkov wrote:
> Twisted One wrote:
>
>>You meant easy to fix for developers then. I was thinking for an end
>>user who had a copy and wanted it working *now*. An edit file hack --
>>OK. Something that requires recompiling something -- nuh-uh, unless you
>>think everyone is a unix geek like you are. ;)
>
> Oh, I was thinking all the non-geeks are playing Diablo 2 ;)

Not all geeks are unix geeks.

--
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Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
 
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Serguei V. Jidkov <jsv@gorod.bryansk.ru> writes:

> Twisted One wrote:
>
> I've found some LCC on my machine, so if someone desperately wants to play
> 0.6.2b right *now*, here is the updated executable:

Just to let you all know, the next official release will be out within
a week or so, at least in beta form.

--
Bahman Rabii