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Hardest Variant?

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Anonymous
April 19, 2005 5:41:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

So whats the hardest variant out there people?

And reasons why...

This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing strictures on
yourself like no arts no quests etc.

I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or playing an
Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a fire or
pots as ice or water)

--
"Omnia mors aequat"
"Death levels all distinctions"

More about : hardest variant

Anonymous
April 19, 2005 5:41:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

I think that this question tends to be largely irrelevent. Especially
in variants with a wide variety of race-class combinations, such as
Hengband or ToME, one can almost find a combination that is nearly
impossible to win with, and declare that the most difficult.

A better question might simply be "in general, which variant tends to
be the most difficult", rather than focusing on specific class/race
combinations. (I do not know the answer, the only variants I have
played extensively are NPP and PoS).
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 8:06:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

1. DrAngband 2.9.9a (because 2.9.9c has greatly weakened AI)
2. OAngband
3. Hengband (almost tied with O)
4. NPP (70% of chars i make go past stat gain, much easier than the above)
5. Vanilla (no autosquelch S#XXXX)

Pos = NPP with new classes/gameplay, AFAIK, so it´s 4, because
not playing new classes don´t change gameplay much.
I only play 2, 3 and 4 lately. 2 is halted till nasty ego bug is fixed.

--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?
Related resources
April 19, 2005 8:24:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> So whats the hardest variant out there people?
>
> And reasons why...
>
> This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing strictures on
> yourself like no arts no quests etc.
>
> I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or playing an
> Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a fire or
> pots as ice or water)
>
> --
> "Omnia mors aequat"
> "Death levels all distinctions"
>
>


1. Vanilla - I haven't beaten it, so it must be hard :p 
2. Hengband - Outdoor travel plus inflexibility when it comes to food = a
zillion dead characters from starvation (that's why I finally went with a
vampire)
3. Steamband - Early game is normal, end game is kinda easy, but middle game can
just be vicious with those OOD pits and difficult quests for uniques. (Marquis
de la Tour on level 42??? Good luck, pal.)
4. ToME - The one I have by far the most experience with, so it seems like the
easiest to me. Characters can become more powerful than in other Bands I've
played, but some of the challenges require it (good luck going after the top of
MtDoom or the Nether Realms with a character who isn't death-on-legs).
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 9:16:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Atriel wrote:
> 2. OAngband

> I only play 2, 3 and 4 lately. 2 is halted till nasty ego bug is fixed.

Which bug is that?

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 12:15:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Severoth wrote:
> So whats the hardest variant out there people?
>
> And reasons why...
>
> This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing
strictures on
> yourself like no arts no quests etc.
>
> I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or
playing an
> Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a
fire or
> pots as ice or water)

It's been a while since I didnt bash on Dr. White for not maintaining
Drangband without asking anyone to take over. So yeah, Drangband is the
hardest variant but only because it needs more work.

T.

>
> --
> "Omnia mors aequat"
> "Death levels all distinctions"
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 5:29:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Aman, Elvenkind, Permanence not generating hi-resist. This is a pain
cuz i´ve already found in my first new O char around 7 egos with
no hi resist, including a permanence with a necro. More painful to O
than to any other variant cuz in O its already harder to conver
hi resists.
--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?
April 19, 2005 6:23:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> So whats the hardest variant out there people?
>

1)Hengband - by far most difficult variant due to monster AI, that can summon
and cast spells at you out of LOS. With limitless monster mana many summoners
(like 's', 'Q')are simply impossible to defeat.

(...a lot of space...)

2) Oangband - although most monster has less HP than in V, char can deliver
*much*
less damage in melee, or with spells. AI is also tough, especially for warriors.
It's difficult to find source of few basic resitances like confusion, blind.
GWoPs(and few similar monsters) are nearly impossible to defeat in this
variant, becouse they can tunnel, breath very powerfully, and sometimes goes in
packs.

3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to be
insta-killed, compared to other variants.
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 6:23:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Peter wrote:
> 2) Oangband - although most monster has less HP than in V, char can deliver
> *much*
> less damage in melee, or with spells.

What? My winner druid could deliver 500+ damage to some enemies toward
the end, with spells. My current vanilla mage (cl 50, all books) can
deliver 400. And runs out of mana faster doing it.

Warriors played like V warriors do poorly in O. O warriors actually want
heavy weapons with brands and slys to get serious damage dealing
capacity. O warriors also will have trouble with blindness and confusion
-- covering the rests quickly is important, and having means of hasting
and curing status is important.

> GWoPs(and few similar monsters) are nearly impossible to defeat in this
> variant, becouse they can tunnel, breath very powerfully, and sometimes goes in
> packs.

Then don't kill them -- teleport them away or even flee the level.
Oangband makes level-fleeing darn near necessary; Oangband non-preserve
(which I won) makes *destruction* necessary.

> 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to be
> insta-killed, compared to other variants.

I think you need poison resistance much earlier than in V. Or something.

There are also balance problems with certain monsters in certain pits
which are supposed to be fixed RSN.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 6:26:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-19 15:29:49, Atriel <atriel666@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Aman, Elvenkind, Permanence not generating hi-resist.
It's easy to fix. In object2.c, line 3071 change

if (e_ptr->xtra & (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))

to

if (e_ptr->xtra && (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 6:26:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Serguei V. Jidkov wrote:
> On 2005-04-19 15:29:49, Atriel <atriel666@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Aman, Elvenkind, Permanence not generating hi-resist.
>
> It's easy to fix. In object2.c, line 3071 change
>
> if (e_ptr->xtra & (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))
>
> to
>
> if (e_ptr->xtra && (o_ptr->xtra1 == 0))

Your definition of "easy to fix" is a bit strange. Most end users have
Windows, no compilers installed, and won't even have a clue what the
hell you're talking about here. And the maintainer seems to have
disappeared again...

Perhaps if someone would be so kind as to make patched executables
available who does have a compiler and the know-how to do this? (I
would, but I don't have the webspace to host executables and such. :p )

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 8:10:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

> Your definition of "easy to fix" is a bit strange.
Maybe. But some bugs are hard to fix and *hard* to find. That one wasn't. :) 

> And the maintainer seems to have disappeared again...
No, he is still with us and working on the new release. You can subscribe to the
oangband mailing list (see the game website) to find more info about the current
development.

> Perhaps if someone would be so kind as to make patched executables
> available who does have a compiler and the know-how to do this? (I
> would, but I don't have the webspace to host executables and such. :p )
I have only linux & freeBSD here. And no hosting space. ;-P
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 8:10:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Serguei V. Jidkov <jsv@gorod.bryansk.ru> writes:

> > And the maintainer seems to have disappeared again...
> No, he is still with us and working on the new release. You can subscribe to the
> oangband mailing list (see the game website) to find more info about the current
> development.

Indeed. I'll try to hurry out the next version. Really it already
has enough changes to be worth releasing. There are a couple of
things I would like to finish - for example there are now 4 classes
that have a new specialty ability choice, and 5 that do not.

--
Bahman Rabii
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 8:10:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Serguei V. Jidkov wrote:
>>Your definition of "easy to fix" is a bit strange.
>
> Maybe. But some bugs are hard to fix and *hard* to find. That one wasn't. :) 

You meant easy to fix for developers then. I was thinking for an end
user who had a copy and wanted it working *now*. An edit file hack --
OK. Something that requires recompiling something -- nuh-uh, unless you
think everyone is a unix geek like you are. ;) 

>>And the maintainer seems to have disappeared again...
>
> No, he is still with us and working on the new release. You can subscribe to the
> oangband mailing list (see the game website) to find more info about the current
> development.

What? This is the *band newsgroup. I expect the maintainer's continued
existence, net access, and interest in his variant to be evident from
reading this froup alone. What's with forking off a mailing list that
hasn't even been mentioned in the froup until today and taking all that
fruitful discussion away from rgra??? I could see it with tome, maybe,
since it's gone so far from vanilla. Better yet though would be
rgr.tome. A(n unmoderated) newsgroup is far better than a mailing list.
More bandwidth-efficient too.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 9:19:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:<d41njm$h0o$1@news.vol.cz>...
> So whats the hardest variant out there people?
>
> And reasons why...
>
> This is playing as per the normal Variant rules and not imposing strictures on
> yourself like no arts no quests etc.
>
> I would say probably playing a character in NPP (Damn Hydras) or playing an
> Elemental Monster race in POS. (You cant use staves or scrolls as a fire or
> pots as ice or water)

1) Kamband. All sorts of overpowered monsters in there. On the other
hand, you can get Crossbows of Extra Might +30~ so it balances out a
bit.

2) The versions of DrAngband where spell frequency was effectively
1_in_1 for all enemies.

3) Hengband from what I've heard. There's some AI which, when
combined with general comparison of player stats vs monster stats,
breaks things, along with the weird speed system where no matter how
much speed you have, enemies can get double or triple moves on you and
you don't have HP to survive it.

In general, I think the variants with new features are harder than
Vanilla, because Vanilla is relatively stable, you know what enemies
are to be avoided and which aren't and what resistances are needed.
New variants tend to sometimes go overboard with overly difficult
enemies breathing sound for 800 damage (Gumband), crazy AI
(DrAngband), speed systems which may not have been fully thought
through (Hengband), psycho-ness (Kamband), and you do not necessarily
know which enemies are dangerous and which aren't. For example, if
you try to fight Photon in Animeband you will get destroyed, and only
people who watch a ton of animes and play alot of fighting games will
know what 'Genei Jin' or 'Ume shoryu' or 'AHVB' or 'Divine Comedy'
refer to (well, the last one is actually Star Ocean reference but
bleh).

k2
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 9:26:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:

>> 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance
>> to be insta-killed, compared to other variants.
>
> I think you need poison resistance much earlier than in V. Or something.
>
> There are also balance problems with certain monsters in certain pits
> which are supposed to be fixed RSN.

RSN ?

Sorry, I had to do it :) 
Anonymous
April 19, 2005 9:26:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
> Twisted One wrote:
>
>>>3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance
>>>to be insta-killed, compared to other variants.
>>
>>I think you need poison resistance much earlier than in V. Or something.
>>
>>There are also balance problems with certain monsters in certain pits
>>which are supposed to be fixed RSN.
>
> RSN ?
>
> Sorry, I had to do it :) 

Real Soon Now. Could be tomorrow, could be vaporware (though *band
maintainers tend to be fairly reliable so I'd expect it by, oh, say,
Christmas).

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 12:25:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

K2_Greyhame wrote:
> 1) Kamband. All sorts of overpowered monsters in there. On the other
> hand, you can get Crossbows of Extra Might +30~ so it balances out a
> bit.

A BIT!?

> 3) Hengband from what I've heard. There's some AI which, when
> combined with general comparison of player stats vs monster stats,
> breaks things, along with the weird speed system where no matter how
> much speed you have, enemies can get double or triple moves on you and
> you don't have HP to survive it.

I should think that makes Hengband the single worst -- unsurvivable,
period, since the law of averages says in a long enough game you WILL
wind up dead from this, and *bands are very long games.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 5:43:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Hey Neo, don´t be so harsh, there r several variants to play ;) 

--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 5:48:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

> Hey Neo, don´t be so harsh, there r several variants to play ;) 

Hmmm my quick comment can be misunderstood.
I said only to give a time to the mantainer while you play your 2nd
favest var...

--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 6:04:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

> (DrAngband), speed systems which may not have been fully thought
> through (Hengband), psycho-ness (Kamband), and you do not necessarily

heheheheh when u said about kanband i thought it was a joke, nice
variant.

But i have to disagree here
If you have max con + all resists (all resists are equally needed and
can kill in heng) + ~25 speed + esp then a player can only die due
to his own stupidity no matter where. Yea, i died due to my own
stupidity like... 15 times.
Nothing can kill you without attacking like 3 times at least if the above
prereqs are covered... with the exception of Richard Wong and other
time-stopping uniques (if any?) and only IF they catch you in the
open with other monsters around.... (esp esp esp)
And HENG speed system R0X !!!!! :) 

--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 2:51:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:

> You meant easy to fix for developers then. I was thinking for an end
> user who had a copy and wanted it working *now*. An edit file hack --
> OK. Something that requires recompiling something -- nuh-uh, unless you
> think everyone is a unix geek like you are. ;) 
Oh, I was thinking all the non-geeks are playing Diablo 2 ;) 

I've found some LCC on my machine, so if someone desperately wants to play
0.6.2b right *now*, here is the updated executable:

http://jsv.newmail.ru/oangband-062b-f1.zip

I've tried it on Windows 2k/vmware, it seems to work.

I'm too lazy to revert the patches, so I've used my current source as is. It
means the game interface is changed according to my tastes (but no changes to
the game balance or savefile format have been made; I'm not going to introduce
a new variant). And of course it can mean more bugs :) 

Bugs fixed:

+ ego item generation bug;
+ weak light spells were doing no damage (without Holy Light speciality)
+ Beornings innate shapeshift now takes a turn
+ ammo in the quiver now can be selected for missile brandig

Other bugs are still here, so I advice against playing a Necromancer with
the Unlight speciality ;) 

Changes to the interface:

* experience bar
* the experience indicator is 3-modal:
- initially it shows how many experience is needed to reach the next level
('NEXT:').
- after clev 50 is reached it shows the total experience you have
('EXP:')
- if the experience is drained, it shows how many is lost ('Lost:')
* known sustains are indicated by a green star near the stat name.
* known resistances (and some other equipment effects) are shown under the
stats in a very cryptic form (I _like_ this feature. It reminds me of all the
mushrooms of hallucination I've eaten :)  )
* known level feeling is shown by the colour of the depth indicator (the
very old idea of mine, now in S and NPP).
* ... and the level feeling is always known. :)  (I really do not like the
100 turn delay. It was introduced to prevent stair scumming, but the
autoscummer makes it obsolete. Now the delay only forces me to count turns
before leaving the level and this turn-counting feels exactly like scumming. :) 
In any case, I never played with the 'connected_stairs' option turned on).
* Applyed Mogami's macro trigger patch. (You will need to replace
lib/user/pref-win.prf to make it work. And I guess alt-key combinations are
broken under windows.)
* Borrowed Eytan Zwieg's code for the monster knowledge command. Some
changes are made to make it work with the bigscreen correctly. You can also
change monster's visual appearance here (kind of 'interact with visuals').
* Object knowledge command... hummm, it's functional but much more work is
to be done. It's possible to see/change squelch settings here, but for now it
works only with flavoured objects.
* hurt level is indicated by player's colour (the code is taken directly
from NPP)
* the default name for character dumps is '$NAME-$CLEV-$DLEV.txt'
* there is a command to quickly re-read the class/race/char-specific pref
files. It's '$' in the underlying command set and if you want to use it, you
have to assign it to some key (if you do not know how, you probably have no
need for this command).
* some minor changes I either can't remember now or do not like and going to
get rid of :) 
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 2:51:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Serguei V. Jidkov wrote:
> Twisted One wrote:
>
>>You meant easy to fix for developers then. I was thinking for an end
>>user who had a copy and wanted it working *now*. An edit file hack --
>>OK. Something that requires recompiling something -- nuh-uh, unless you
>>think everyone is a unix geek like you are. ;) 
>
> Oh, I was thinking all the non-geeks are playing Diablo 2 ;) 

Not all geeks are unix geeks.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 2:51:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Serguei V. Jidkov <jsv@gorod.bryansk.ru> writes:

> Twisted One wrote:
>
> I've found some LCC on my machine, so if someone desperately wants to play
> 0.6.2b right *now*, here is the updated executable:

Just to let you all know, the next official release will be out within
a week or so, at least in beta form.

--
Bahman Rabii
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 3:47:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Serguei V. Jidkov <jsv@gorod.bryansk.ru> writes:

> Other bugs are still here, so I advice against playing a Necromancer with
> the Unlight speciality ;) 

Am I missing a bug? The only problem I know of with Unlight are a
display bug on the resistance, and that sometimes the bonuses apply
when you are blind in an unlit space. Neither of these actually hurts
the player...

--
Bahman Rabii
April 20, 2005 3:47:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-20 04:04:00, Atriel <atriel666@hotmail.com> wrote:

> But i have to disagree here
> If you have max con + all resists (all resists are equally needed and
> can kill in heng) + ~25 speed + esp then a player can only die due
> to his own stupidity no matter where. Yea, i died due to my own
> stupidity like... 15 times.

Oh, really ?...
Delivering a killing blow to Amberite Unique, which upon death summons
Cyberdemons that have first move on you, and each fires a rocket...insta-death,
and no chance to react...no matter how many HP and resistances you have...

Cheers.
Peter.
Anonymous
April 20, 2005 7:23:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

> Oh, really ?...
> Delivering a killing blow to Amberite Unique, which upon death summons
> Cyberdemons that have first move on you, and each fires a rocket...insta-death,
> and no chance to react...no matter how many HP and resistances you have...

Oh, and the amberites :) 

--
I will hold the candle till it burns up my arm.
I'll keep taking punches until their will grows tired.
I will stare the sun down until my eyes go blind.
I won't change direction and I won't change my mind...
How much difference does it make?
April 21, 2005 12:28:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

In article <d43492$1ms9$1@news.vol.cz>, Peter <KasperskiP@acn.waw.pl>
wrote:

> On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to
> be
> insta-killed, compared to other variants.

Yeah, this question mark is right.

Have you played Steamband? And been instakilled? Which, just for the
sake of discussion means for example, going down stairs and before
having a chance to move, attacked by one or a series of monsters that
reduce you from your full HP *and* WP total to 0?

As much as some people would like to think so, not casting detection and
opening the door to a 'C' pit, and having rockets destroy all the walls
around you and then getting killed because you're exposed like a whore's
underwear isn't an insta-death; because opening the door to a 'C' pit is
a *bad* choice, not an insta-kill.

Is monster damage way overpowered, along with player character
regeneration? yes. Are resistances a little surprising and not quite
balanced and tweaked very well? yes. Are there problems with artifact
balance? yes.

I, the steamband dev team, and the steamband-l members, rewrote the
monster and artifact lists from *scratch*. From a blank file. We filled
that white space with every monster you have killed, and every artifact
you've found. It make take more than a couple of months to balance it to
the level [V] is at.

I would not have even bothered responding if I didn't receive the
impression that you have yet to play Steamband. If you have, I'd like to
know exactly what you mean when you say 'unforgiving' and the specific
situation where you were insta-killed - otherwise your criticism is just
petty and more to the point, serves no purpose in furthering the
development of Steamband.

Thank you for your time and attention.
-Campbell
April 21, 2005 1:55:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-20 17:23:32, Atriel <atriel666@hotmail.com> wrote:

> > Oh, really ?...
> > Delivering a killing blow to Amberite Unique, which upon death summons
> > Cyberdemons that have first move on you, and each fires a rocket...insta-death,
> > and no chance to react...no matter how many HP and resistances you have...
>
> Oh, and the amberites :) 

And of course the MEtal babble. Resist _all_ and teleportation. Except ninja's
:p .

--
Mars

Of course there is no formula for success except perhaps an unconditional
acceptance of the RNG and what it brings.
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 9:24:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-21 06:28:38, VALIS <valis@oook.cz> wrote:

> In article , Peter
> wrote:
>
> > On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth wrote:
> > 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to
> > be
> > insta-killed, compared to other variants.
>
> Yeah, this question mark is right.
>
> Have you played Steamband? And been instakilled? Which, just for the
> sake of discussion means for example, going down stairs and before
> having a chance to move, attacked by one or a series of monsters that
> reduce you from your full HP *and* WP total to 0?
>
> As much as some people would like to think so, not casting detection and
> opening the door to a 'C' pit, and having rockets destroy all the walls
> around you and then getting killed because you're exposed like a whore's
> underwear isn't an insta-death; because opening the door to a 'C' pit is
> a *bad* choice, not an insta-kill.
>
> Is monster damage way overpowered, along with player character
> regeneration? yes. Are resistances a little surprising and not quite
> balanced and tweaked very well? yes. Are there problems with artifact
> balance? yes.
>
> I, the steamband dev team, and the steamband-l members, rewrote the
> monster and artifact lists from *scratch*. From a blank file. We filled
> that white space with every monster you have killed, and every artifact
> you've found. It make take more than a couple of months to balance it to
> the level [V] is at.
>
> I would not have even bothered responding if I didn't receive the
> impression that you have yet to play Steamband. If you have, I'd like to
> know exactly what you mean when you say 'unforgiving' and the specific
> situation where you were insta-killed - otherwise your criticism is just
> petty and more to the point, serves no purpose in furthering the
> development of Steamband.
>
> Thank you for your time and attention.
> -Campbell
>

I didnt write that steamband was anything, I think you have your quote wrong,
someone else quoted steamband like that. :) 

--
"Omnia mors aequat"
"Death levels all distinctions"
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 10:15:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Bahman Rabii <bahman@oangband.com> wrote:

> Serguei V. Jidkov writes:
> > Other bugs are still here, so I advice against playing a Necromancer with
> > the Unlight speciality ;) 

> Am I missing a bug? The only problem I know of with Unlight are a
> display bug on the resistance, and that sometimes the bonuses apply
> when you are blind in an unlit space. Neither of these actually hurts
> the player...
In the lists of open bugs it is stated that "Unlight bonuses apply when they
should not"
with no indication of how harmful/beneficial it can be.
It's the only reason I've mentioned Unlight here.
April 21, 2005 10:23:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-21 07:24:03, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> I didnt write that steamband was anything, I think you have your quote wrong,
> someone else quoted steamband like that. :) 

You're right - it was peter.
--
-Campbell

- Join the steamband group by sending an email to
steamband-subscribe@Yahoogroups.com !
- Visit the Steamband web page, and follow the progress of Steam! (and view my
art!) http://angband.oook.cz/steamband/
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 2:53:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Sherm Pendley wrote:
> Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
>

[Unprovoked veiled insults and flameage deleted]

Why don't you both STFU, FOAD, and GOAT?


;) 
--
Matt
mattneu@gmail.com
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 4:10:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-20 21:28:38 -0700, VALIS <valis@oook.cz> said:

> In article <d43492$1ms9$1@news.vol.cz>, Peter <KasperskiP@acn.waw.pl> wrote:
>
>> On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>> 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to be
>> insta-killed, compared to other variants.
>
> Yeah, this question mark is right.
> Have you played Steamband? And been instakilled? Which, just for the
> sake of discussion means for example, going down stairs and before
> having a chance to move, attacked by one or a series of monsters that
> reduce you from your full HP *and* WP total to 0?
>
> As much as some people would like to think so, not casting detection
> and opening the door to a 'C' pit, and having rockets destroy all the
> walls around you and then getting killed because you're exposed like a
> whore's underwear isn't an insta-death; because opening the door to a
> 'C' pit is a *bad* choice, not an insta-kill.
> Is monster damage way overpowered, along with player character
> regeneration? yes. Are resistances a little surprising and not quite
> balanced and tweaked very well? yes. Are there problems with artifact
> balance? yes.
>
> I, the steamband dev team, and the steamband-l members, rewrote the
> monster and artifact lists from *scratch*. From a blank file. We filled
> that white space with every monster you have killed, and every artifact
> you've found. It make take more than a couple of months to balance it
> to the level [V] is at.
>
> I would not have even bothered responding if I didn't receive the
> impression that you have yet to play Steamband. If you have, I'd like
> to know exactly what you mean when you say 'unforgiving' and the
> specific situation where you were insta-killed - otherwise your
> criticism is just petty and more to the point, serves no purpose in
> furthering the development of Steamband.
>
> Thank you for your time and attention.
> -Campbell


I hate to fan the flames, but I want to caution you about being too
defensive about your variant. I fully understand the dismay you feel
when someone makes an offhand (and possibly uninformed) remark about
"your baby", but you have to realize that you did release "your baby"
into the wild, and part of this process is sitting back and letting
others experience it, talk about it, and form impressions and opinions
that you may or may not approve of-- and may even anger you. I'm
saying this because I'm guilty of making the same mistake, turning off
potential fans of something I worked on by being too defensive against
offhanded comments and reviews that weren't completely positive. It's
best sometimes to step back, let people make their comments and figure
things out on their own, and only correct glaring factual errors
without getting too angry or personal.

This is a public place and people are entitled to opinions. As you are
to yours, this is only advice.
April 21, 2005 4:32:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Nice post JB - what is your variant? I'll check it out.

CC
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 5:33:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> mattneu wrote:
> > Sherm Pendley wrote:
> >
> >>Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
> >
> > [Unprovoked veiled insults and flameage deleted]
> >
> > Why don't you both STFU, FOAD, and GOAT?
>
> GOAT?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=GOAT&btnG=Google+S...

--
Matt
mattneu@gmail.com
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 6:12:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

mattneu wrote:
> Sherm Pendley wrote:
>
>>Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
>
> [Unprovoked veiled insults and flameage deleted]
>
> Why don't you both STFU, FOAD, and GOAT?

GOAT?

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 9:05:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

mattneu wrote:
> Twisted One wrote:
>
>>mattneu wrote:
>>
>>>Sherm Pendley wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Christophe Cavalaria wrote:
>>>
>>>[Unprovoked veiled insults and flameage deleted]
>>>
>>>Why don't you both STFU, FOAD, and GOAT?
>>
>>GOAT?
>
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=GOAT&btnG=Google+S...

I'm wondering what it means as an acronym, not what the most common
meaning is, which is what Google will tell me (as search engines rank
pages by word frequencies and the like) and which I already know (a
horned, hoofed, small domesticated herbivore made obsolete by the
invention of the lawn mower, much as the automobile replaced horses) :) 
--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
April 22, 2005 12:38:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-21 06:28:38, VALIS <valis@oook.cz> wrote:

> In article , Peter
> wrote:
>
> > On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth wrote:
> > 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest chance to
> > be
> > insta-killed, compared to other variants.
>
> Yeah, this question mark is right.
>

...sigh...you missed meaning of that mark...

> Have you played Steamband? And been instakilled? Which, just for the
> sake of discussion means for example, going down stairs and before
> having a chance to move, attacked by one or a series of monsters that
> reduce you from your full HP *and* WP total to 0?
>

Yes, and yes.

> As much as some people would like to think so, not casting detection and
> opening the door to a 'C' pit, and having rockets destroy all the walls
> around you and then getting killed because you're exposed like a whore's
> underwear isn't an insta-death; because opening the door to a 'C' pit is
> a *bad* choice, not an insta-kill.
>

Unless you like to read spoilers you'll learn that by dying.

> I would not have even bothered responding if I didn't receive the
> impression that you have yet to play Steamband. If you have, I'd like to
> know exactly what you mean when you say 'unforgiving' and the specific
> situation where you were insta-killed - otherwise your criticism is just
> petty and more to the point, serves no purpose in furthering the
> development of Steamband.
>

Huh? Saying that variant is hard is a criticism ?
O.K. by unforgiving I meant usage of skill points, only to find out that it
doesn't work as expected. You don't remeber naturally, but you answered my
post considering why Dashing Hussar doesn't have access to advanced martial
arts skills. That wasn't my first char to find out things like that. Don't
remeber all my insta-deaths, but one I remeber was from Nazi Panther tanks
(BTW - could you change all nazi mosters ? - it's very disturbing and bad taste
for me ), other ? Sigh...rockets I remeber...

> Thank you for your time and attention.
> -Campbell
>

Honestly, my post wasn't pointed at you, or people contributing to Steam. This
is my personal opinion, it was not against your game, and you take it as a
personal attack...sigh...someone is overreacting ? Mind you - I have won
Vanilla, Sangband, Gumband, and few other variants. Unless I find a way to
cope with Steam, it will be one of the hardest variants to me. Also it seems
you ignored my entire post - Heng is *much* more difficult to me than Steam,
and I gave up trying to win it.

Last thing...a little more respect please....you like "(c)ampbell"...hmm ? so
don't write "(p)eter"...

Cheers.
Peter.
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 2:35:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:10:31 -0700, JBancock <jb@NoSpam.com> wrote:

>I hate to fan the flames, but I want to caution you about being too
>defensive about your variant.

Yeah, VALIS, I also think you overreacted on this one.

R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
April 22, 2005 5:40:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

In article <d492vh$nrs$1@news.vol.cz>, Peter <KasperskiP@acn.waw.pl>
wrote:

> On 2005-04-21 06:28:38, VALIS <valis@oook.cz> wrote:
>
> > In article , Peter
> > As much as some people would like to think so, not casting detection and
> > opening the door to a 'C' pit, and having rockets destroy all the walls
> > around you and then getting killed because you're exposed like a whore's
> > underwear isn't an insta-death; because opening the door to a 'C' pit is
> > a *bad* choice, not an insta-kill.
> >
>
> Unless you like to read spoilers you'll learn that by dying.

Or take them on by themselves first to get an idea of the range of
damage. (yes, I am aware they cause too much damage. :-)

> > I would not have even bothered responding if I didn't receive the
> > impression that you have yet to play Steamband. If you have, I'd like to
> > know exactly what you mean when you say 'unforgiving' and the specific
> > situation where you were insta-killed - otherwise your criticism is just
> > petty and more to the point, serves no purpose in furthering the
> > development of Steamband.
> >
>
> Huh? Saying that variant is hard is a criticism ?

No, but saying that it's 'unforgiving' without explaining what you mean
(and therefore allowing it to be corrected) and that it has the 'largest
chance' to be insta-killed, without describing how you were insta-killed
*is* a criticism - and one that is not constructive because it gives me
no information on how to *fix* the problems you mentioned.

> O.K. by unforgiving I meant usage of skill points, only to find out that it
> doesn't work as expected. You don't remeber naturally, but you answered my
> post considering why Dashing Hussar doesn't have access to advanced martial
> arts skills. That wasn't my first char to find out things like that.

IIRC this was a bug? That I've already fixed in the source (the code
doesn't match the spoilers, again IIRC)

The second issue I've got is that I can't figure out an effective way to
display what skills are unlockable from a skill in an easy manner. The
unlocking code is a giant switch statement making it even harder to
display that information.

> Don't
> remeber all my insta-deaths, but one I remeber was from Nazi Panther tanks
> (BTW - could you change all nazi mosters ? - it's very disturbing and bad
> taste for me ), other ? Sigh...rockets I remeber...

Well, Steamband is a Victorian *Pulp* and Steampunk variant - and Nazi's
and nazi monsters are very in-theme for the pulp genera - so no.

> Honestly, my post wasn't pointed at you, or people contributing to Steam.
> This is my personal opinion, it was not against your game, and you take it as a
> personal attack...sigh...someone is overreacting? Mind you - I have won
> Vanilla, Sangband, Gumband, and few other variants. Unless I find a way to
> cope with Steam, it will be one of the hardest variants to me.

Part of the problem is of course the balance issues remaining to be
corrected - I'm just saying, that in a public forum, I'd rather have you
describe them, and help me look for ways to fix them; then have you just
say in that same public forum that this variant is an unforgiving
variant that has the largest chance of any variant to get insta-killed
in.

> Also it seems
> you ignored my entire post - Heng is *much* more difficult to me than Steam,
> and I gave up trying to win it.
>
> Last thing...a little more respect please....you like "(c)ampbell"...hmm ? so
> don't write "(p)eter"...

Curse the speed of my response, damn my eyes. :-)

> Cheers.
> Peter.

Thanks for the response Peter.
-Campbell
April 22, 2005 5:43:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

In article <0b2h61542mqaajhmlr5hp7gum7penhpust@4ax.com>,
R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Apr 2005 12:10:31 -0700, JBancock <jb@NoSpam.com> wrote:
>
> >I hate to fan the flames, but I want to caution you about being too
> >defensive about your variant.
>
> Yeah, VALIS, I also think you overreacted on this one.

Noted.

I might have been a little worked up when I wrote the message.

> R. Dan Henry
> danhenry@inreach.com

-Campbell
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 4:51:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

VALIS wrote:
> In article <d43492$1ms9$1@news.vol.cz>, Peter <KasperskiP@acn.waw.pl>

> wrote:
>
> > On 2005-04-19 03:41:10, Severoth <severoth@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> > 3)Steamband (?) - very different than V, very unforgiving, largest
chance to
> > be
> > insta-killed, compared to other variants.
>
> Yeah, this question mark is right.
>
> Have you played Steamband? And been instakilled? Which, just for the
> sake of discussion means for example, going down stairs and before
> having a chance to move, attacked by one or a series of monsters that

> reduce you from your full HP *and* WP total to 0?

Yes, I was poisoned, got heavily hit and then poison damage. This
happened several times. In general, I finished my evening of Steam with
a character that is going well and that suddenly gets hit in one shot,
so I teleport and usually get killed by some little nothing.

Once I got the hang of Steamband and this didnt happpen I got killed by
boredom. I only play mediums, either dwarven or djinn.

T.
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 8:59:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:00:12 -0400 Twisted One wrote:

TO> What? This is the *band newsgroup. I expect the maintainer's continued
TO> existence, net access, and interest in his variant to be evident from
TO> reading this froup alone. What's with forking off a mailing list that
TO> hasn't even been mentioned in the froup until today and taking all that
TO> fruitful discussion away from rgra??? I could see it with tome, maybe,
TO> since it's gone so far from vanilla. Better yet though would be
TO> rgr.tome. A(n unmoderated) newsgroup is far better than a mailing list.
TO> More bandwidth-efficient too.

You always can use gmane service (www.gmane.org) to "convert" this
mailing list to newsgroup. It's very simple and very useful. I read some
mailing list from this way ;-)

serge@matveev spb ru Serge Matveev & ...
ICQ 3575357
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 8:59:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 04:59:07 +0400, Serge Matveev
<serge@matveev.spb.ru> wrote:

>On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 15:00:12 -0400 Twisted One wrote:
>
> TO> What? This is the *band newsgroup. I expect the maintainer's continued
> TO> existence, net access, and interest in his variant to be evident from
> TO> reading this froup alone. What's with forking off a mailing list that
> TO> hasn't even been mentioned in the froup until today and taking all that
> TO> fruitful discussion away from rgra??? I could see it with tome, maybe,
> TO> since it's gone so far from vanilla. Better yet though would be
> TO> rgr.tome. A(n unmoderated) newsgroup is far better than a mailing list.
> TO> More bandwidth-efficient too.

But less efficient for a maintainer who only has time to read and
respond to feedback concerning his own variant. Most of them have
jobs, school, and/or families taking up large amounts of their time.
Plus they need time to actually work on the variant. They can't just
sit around reading Usenet all day like they were on the dole or
something. So your personal convenience and/or expectations may not
come first.

R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
May 1, 2005 2:21:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

> What's with forking off a mailing list that
>hasn't even been mentioned in the froup until today and taking all
that
>fruitful discussion away from rgra???

It's meant as a personal slight against you T.O. -- he started his own
mailing list to get away from you.

Or did you consider that maybe he doesn't have time to wade through all
of the bullshit that crosses r.g.r.a and wants messages that're related
to what he's working on?
!