[NPP] Some new pet peeves :)

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Hi Jeff & others,

While playing several incarnations of Kelumen, I noticed some issues in
NPP 0.4.1 that could be improved. I'll list them here, so you can
consider fixing them in the next version

* It's hard to calculate damage for sling shots, since the 'C' screen
lists the total to-dam bonus of sling and rogue skill - but the sling
bonus gets multiplied by the sling's power, and the rogue skill bonus is
applied after this multiplication. Could it be possible to adapt the
screen so that both bonusses are independently visible. (Or maybe you
can find a way to indicate expected damage range?)

* I often use Ctrl-V (repeat latest command), for instance while taking
out a horde of approaching beasties. Hit 'f' to fire, select appropriate
ammo (rounded pebbles in case of low level beasties), select target
(straight up into the corridor) and bang away at Ctrl-V. But if during
the process I feel that a weapon is average, it gets squelched - and
suddenly I find myself firing my prized Shots of Lightning (+6,+12) at a
horde of white mice! Is it possible to adapt Ctrl-V so that it won't use
the same letter when selecting from inventory, but use the same object
(even when inventory gets reshuffled).

* The new AI for monsters fighting in packs includes weakened monsters
exchanging position with the monster behind it. Makes sense - but not if
the monster behind it is sleeping, or even immobile!
I know arguments from realism are flawed, but it's also a possibly
exploit - when I'm already weakened, and the monster in the door swaps
places with a sleeping monster, I can take a step back, set a trap,
quaff some potions, rest a few turns, etc - and all the while, the
sleeping monster in blocking the path for the others.
In the case of immobile monsters, it's even a potential unfair
insta-death. Suppose I see a floating eye before acquiring Free Action.
I carefully avoid stepping next to it, while fighting a horde of orcs.
Then, an almost dead orc decides to retreat and swaps places with the
floating eye; the floating eye gazes at me; while I'm paraloyzed, the
orc regains it's courage, walks up to me and starts cutting me to
pieces.
I've witnessed both swapping places with a sleeping monster and swapping
places with an immobile monster. I have not been able to eploit the
swapped sleeper, nor have I suffered the unfair insta-death from a
swapped immobile - but it could happen!
I think monster swapping should only be possible if both are awake and
mobile - unless one of the monsters has the MOVE_BODY flag.

* A request: would it be possible to auto-inscribe objects on the floor
when stepping on them? The current implementation inscribes after
picking up. The result is that I can't pick up an object such as a
Scroll of Word of Recall when my inventory is full. Instead, I have to
drop one item; then I can pick up the scroll, it gets auto-inscribed
with !* and combined with my other scrolls, freeing the slot to pickup
the item I dropped before.
Auto-inscribing floor items would make this lots easier!

* And finally, a question. A rogue has to dismantle his monster trap
before he can use it again. I have been wondering (but too afraid to
experiment, and too lazy to look up in the source) what happens if I
leave a level (either voluntarily, by using stair or word of recall, or
involuntarily, by being level-teleported) without dismantling the
monster trap(s) first?

Best, Hugo
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[magnate]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Hugo Kornelis wrote:
> Hi Jeff & others,

> While playing several incarnations of Kelumen, I noticed some issues
in
> NPP 0.4.1 that could be improved. I'll list them here, so you can
> consider fixing them in the next version

Me too!

> * It's hard to calculate damage for sling shots, since the 'C' screen
> lists the total to-dam bonus of sling and rogue skill - but the sling
> bonus gets multiplied by the sling's power, and the rogue skill bonus
is
> applied after this multiplication. Could it be possible to adapt the
> screen so that both bonusses are independently visible. (Or maybe you
> can find a way to indicate expected damage range?)

I really dislike the fact that the rogue's sling damage bonus is added
after multiplication. To display the two damage mods separately would
be ugly at best. I have an alternative suggestion: change it from
clev*2/3 to clev*1/3 and include it in the multiplier! It's the same
result, and makes the maths (and the concept) easier. If you're worried
about extra might slings being unbalanced, change it to clev*1/4, but
they're so rare it's hardly an issue. Ditto Buckland slings.

> * I often use Ctrl-V (repeat latest command), for instance while
taking
> out a horde of approaching beasties. Hit 'f' to fire, select
appropriate
> ammo (rounded pebbles in case of low level beasties), select target
> (straight up into the corridor) and bang away at Ctrl-V. But if
during
> the process I feel that a weapon is average, it gets squelched - and
> suddenly I find myself firing my prized Shots of Lightning (+6,+12)
at a
> horde of white mice! Is it possible to adapt Ctrl-V so that it won't
use
> the same letter when selecting from inventory, but use the same
object
> (even when inventory gets reshuffled).

Instead of doing that, you could just use the quiver code from O or S.
This would solve the problem.

[snip]
> I think monster swapping should only be possible if both are awake
and
> mobile - unless one of the monsters has the MOVE_BODY flag.

Agreed.

> * A request: would it be possible to auto-inscribe objects on the
floor
> when stepping on them? The current implementation inscribes after
> picking up. The result is that I can't pick up an object such as a
> Scroll of Word of Recall when my inventory is full. Instead, I have
to
> drop one item; then I can pick up the scroll, it gets auto-inscribed
> with !* and combined with my other scrolls, freeing the slot to
pickup
> the item I dropped before.
> Auto-inscribing floor items would make this lots easier!

Hmm. I play with auto-pickup on and I don't have this problem: when my
inv is full, I pick up the ?WoR and it gets auto-inscribed and added to
the others. Do you have "merge inscriptions when stacking" on? That
might be your problem.

> * And finally, a question. A rogue has to dismantle his monster trap
> before he can use it again. I have been wondering (but too afraid to
> experiment, and too lazy to look up in the source) what happens if I
> leave a level (either voluntarily, by using stair or word of recall,
or
> involuntarily, by being level-teleported) without dismantling the
> monster trap(s) first?

You can set a new trap. It checks to see whether there is an existing
trap *on the current dlev*.

Now, an anomaly I've noticed, in the genus "ogre" -

ogre: depth 650', hp 13d9, 50xp
black ogre: 750', 20d9, 75xp
ice ogre: 1100', 40d10, 200xp
cave ogre: 1300', 30d9, 100xp
half-ogre: 1300', 25d14, 250xp
ogre mage/shaman: 1350', 25d12, 300xp
two-headed: 1400', 21d9, 200xp
chieftain: 1500', 30d15, 600xp

.... imho the ice ogre has way too many hp for its depth and xp. I
looked this up after wondering why they were so much harder to kill
than their deeper cousins.

CC

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

overall i really like the monster ai. i'm starting to think i would
really miss it if i switched back to another variant.

the one funny behavior i have seen is that sometimes a spellcasting
monster would approach and stop when it gets 3 or 4 squares away.
(uvatha the horseman did this, for example) then it just stood there.
i could see this tactic being very effective if the moster uses this
position to summon help, or blast you with ranged spells while you are
busy fighting other monsters. but i have seen monsters do it other
times where it would just stand there; it didn't make any sense! i
like the idea of spellcasters having a special combat style, but i
would think that the monster needs to abandon this tactic in some
situations, e.g. out of mana or no other monsters in sight, and advance
to melee range.

i agree it seems funny that a sleeping or immobile monster can get
pushed towards a player, but i'm not sure the alternative would be any
better; if a strong monster can't push past an immobile monster, then
in the same case described above, i can use the floating eye as a
shield while i whomp on the orcs with a ranged spell.

reminds me of something funny i saw playing the comp. i cast object
detection in a greater vault. there was an un-identified scroll in one
of the chambers, and i watched it jump around from square to square! i
knew then that it was a scroll mimic that was getting pushed around.

Murphy S.

 

[magnate]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

There is *definitely* a bug with the confusion trap, btw. I'm at 600',
clev 14. I've just had the following messages about my confusion trap:

The Black Ogre sets off your cunning trap!
The Black Ogre is unaffected!
The Black Ogre takes heed of your cunning tactics.

Since black ogres are native to 750' (dlev 15), and do not have the
NO_CONF flag, the formula published by Jeff in the previous thread
should have meant that it was confused with no save.

CC

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Hugo writes:

* I often use Ctrl-V (repeat latest command), for instance while taking
out a horde of approaching beasties. Hit 'f' to fire, select
appropriate
ammo (rounded pebbles in case of low level beasties), select target
(straight up into the corridor) and bang away at Ctrl-V. But if during
the process I feel that a weapon is average, it gets squelched - and
suddenly I find myself firing my prized Shots of Lightning (+6,+12) at
a
horde of white mice! Is it possible to adapt Ctrl-V so that it won't
use
the same letter when selecting from inventory, but use the same object
(even when inventory gets reshuffled).


You can already do this using inscription. Inscribe your good ammo
with !* if you don't want to shoot it. Or better, inscribe your
ordinary ammo with @f0, then use f0*t to shoot the nearest monster with
ordinary ammo.

I learned a lot about inscription&macros recently when I started
playing TOME. I never needed keymaps before, but in tome you
absolutely *need* hotkeys for entering and leaving melee (fast/berserk)
and search/disarm (sluglike/coward) modes.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Murphy S. wrote:
> the one funny behavior i have seen is that sometimes a spellcasting
> monster would approach and stop when it gets 3 or 4 squares away.
> (uvatha the horseman did this, for example) then it just stood there.

Maybe some monsters in whatever variant this discusses will not step
next to you and let you have the first melee attack? Ones with melee
hits with nasty side effects, like XP drain? Did it approach if you
blasted it from range?

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Hugo Kornelis wrote:

> screen so that both bonusses are independently visible. (Or maybe you
> can find a way to indicate expected damage range?)

This should be rather easy for both melee and missiles as long as we
forget criticals, slays and brands. After that average damage is just
simple calculation. Maybe adventurers guild could have damage calculator
that gives more accurate explanation including slays and brands (crits
are harder, because monster AC affects this).

Timo Pietilä

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Hi,

Am Wed, 20 Apr 2005 14:11:16 +0200, schrieb Hugo Kornelis:

> (straight up into the corridor) and bang away at Ctrl-V. But if during
> the process I feel that a weapon is average, it gets squelched - and
> suddenly I find myself firing my prized Shots of Lightning (+6,+12) at a
> horde of white mice! Is it possible to adapt Ctrl-V so that it won't use

Why don't you just inscribe your ammo with @f1, @f2 etc. and use f1 to
fire your pebbles?

Juergen

 

[magnate]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

No worries Jeff, we know you're busy - thanks for reading.

I'm not a coder myself, but I know a fellow *bander who is a linux guru
and pretty good at creating patches - what do you need? You have my
email addr.

Btw, I've confirmed another minor bug, which is that
inspecting/wielding/wearing/using items on the floor doesn't work if my
inv is full. Possibly even if it's not ...

Also, I neglected brands in my earlier post about rogue sling bonuses
to dam. I still think it should be included in the multiplier, but
think that clev/4 probably better for the endgame (or maybe even
clev/5, though that would make the early game hard going).

CC

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 20 Apr 2005 05:42:41 -0700, magnate wrote:

(snip)
>I really dislike the fact that the rogue's sling damage bonus is added
>after multiplication. To display the two damage mods separately would
>be ugly at best. I have an alternative suggestion: change it from
>clev*2/3 to clev*1/3 and include it in the multiplier! It's the same
>result, and makes the maths (and the concept) easier. If you're worried
>about extra might slings being unbalanced, change it to clev*1/4, but
>they're so rare it's hardly an issue. Ditto Buckland slings.

Hi CC,

Good idea!


>> * I often use Ctrl-V (repeat latest command), for instance while
>taking
>> out a horde of approaching beasties. Hit 'f' to fire, select
>appropriate
>> ammo (rounded pebbles in case of low level beasties), select target
>> (straight up into the corridor) and bang away at Ctrl-V. But if
>during
>> the process I feel that a weapon is average, it gets squelched - and
>> suddenly I find myself firing my prized Shots of Lightning (+6,+12)
>at a
>> horde of white mice! Is it possible to adapt Ctrl-V so that it won't
>use
>> the same letter when selecting from inventory, but use the same
>object
>> (even when inventory gets reshuffled).
>
>Instead of doing that, you could just use the quiver code from O or S.
>This would solve the problem.

Yeah, for this example it would. But I have experienced similar problems
when using Ctrl-V for other purposes. Example: reading several Scrolls
of Identify (or repeatedly using a Staff of Perception) to identify a
stack of unknown objects. After ID-ing the first, I hit Ctrl-V, the game
reads the next ?oI (or re-uses the _oP) and prompts for which item to
identify. Until I identify an unknown scroll (or staff) and it turns out
to be cursed. "You reorder some items in your pack". And then I
accidentally hit Ctrl-V again, to find I just read a scroll of Phase
Door, or used my Staff of Teleportation. Or maybe even worse...

Of course, I know I only have myself to blame for this. And it rarely
happens. But it would be so easy if I could just use Ctrl-V as "repeat
last action" instead of "repeat last keypresses".


(snip)
>> * A request: would it be possible to auto-inscribe objects on the
>floor
>> when stepping on them? The current implementation inscribes after
>> picking up. The result is that I can't pick up an object such as a
>> Scroll of Word of Recall when my inventory is full. Instead, I have
>to
>> drop one item; then I can pick up the scroll, it gets auto-inscribed
>> with !* and combined with my other scrolls, freeing the slot to
>pickup
>> the item I dropped before.
>> Auto-inscribing floor items would make this lots easier!
>
>Hmm. I play with auto-pickup on and I don't have this problem: when my
>inv is full, I pick up the ?WoR and it gets auto-inscribed and added to
>the others. Do you have "merge inscriptions when stacking" on? That
>might be your problem.

No, I don't have that option on. Maybe I missed something myself? I'll
test it again.

(later)
I was able to replicate my earlier observation. I used my wizard
savefile, went to the general store and baught a stack of shots. Dropped
them one by one, whule walking. Picked them up again, each time
inscribing them with a different inscription, until my inventory was
full. When I could not pick up anymore shots, I re-inscribed one with a
new inscription and chose to auto-inscribe all shots. I then walked over
a shot -- "You have no room...". I used the pickup command - same
effect. Then, I dropped my potion of berserk strength and hit the 5 key
on the numpad - I picked upn the shot, inscribed it, and combined it
with the others, after which I could pick up the potion again.

The relevant options I used are:
"Prompt for floor item selection" = no,
"Prompt before picking things up" = no,
"Pick things up by default" = yes,
both "Merge ... when stacking" = no.

(snip)
>> what happens if I
>> leave a level (either voluntarily, by using stair or word of recall,
>or
>> involuntarily, by being level-teleported) without dismantling the
>> monster trap(s) first?
>
>You can set a new trap. It checks to see whether there is an existing
>trap *on the current dlev*.

Thanks! That's what I had hoped.


>Now, an anomaly I've noticed, in the genus "ogre" -
>
>ogre: depth 650', hp 13d9, 50xp
>black ogre: 750', 20d9, 75xp
>ice ogre: 1100', 40d10, 200xp
>cave ogre: 1300', 30d9, 100xp
>half-ogre: 1300', 25d14, 250xp
>ogre mage/shaman: 1350', 25d12, 300xp
>two-headed: 1400', 21d9, 200xp
>chieftain: 1500', 30d15, 600xp
>
>... imho the ice ogre has way too many hp for its depth and xp. I
>looked this up after wondering why they were so much harder to kill
>than their deeper cousins.

I agree.

Best, Hugo
--
Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!

(Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-20 19:28:23, Hugo Kornelis <Angband@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om> wrote:

> On 20 Apr 2005 05:42:41 -0700, magnate wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >I really dislike the fact that the rogue's sling damage bonus is added
> >after multiplication. To display the two damage mods separately would
> >be ugly at best. I have an alternative suggestion: change it from
> >clev*2/3 to clev*1/3 and include it in the multiplier! It's the same
> >result, and makes the maths (and the concept) easier. If you're worried
> >about extra might slings being unbalanced, change it to clev*1/4, but
> >they're so rare it's hardly an issue. Ditto Buckland slings.
>

I think Jeff is worried that this causes branding to be overpowered. Your post
also
made me realize that a +1 shots sling ~= a +2 might sling in the damage/round
for
the current implementation. since the +1 shots sling gets the rogue dmg bonus
twice, while a +2 might sling only gets it once.

However, I think your suggestion is correct. If you're going to add a damage
bonus, the most elegant way to do it is to add it before all the multipliers
just as
you would with +dam from equipment.

A question for Jeff: Do NPP rangers also get similar +hit/+dam bonuses with
long bows as rogues do with slings?

> >Instead of doing that, you could just use the quiver code from O or S.
> >This would solve the problem.

Implement the quiver code, Jeff!!!

> Of course, I know I only have myself to blame for this. And it rarely
> happens. But it would be so easy if I could just use Ctrl-V as "repeat
> last action" instead of "repeat last keypresses".

Inscriptions inscriptions inscriptions. You're describing a problem that
is not unique to "ctrl-v" key. It's unique to any macro/keymap shortcut.
Learn to use inscriptions. You will love them. Identify is mapped to
one key. Fire arrows is mapped to one key. Much easier.

Now if only you could write a macro for identify like: read ID scroll if it
exists, if not, then use ID staff.

>
> No, I don't have that option on. Maybe I missed something myself? I'll
> test it again.

He misspoke. You need to turn that option on for this to work properly.
Why would you have auto-inscribe and "merge inscriptions when stacking"
set to off? Turn the option on, and then try it.

--
Gallowglass

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Gallowglass" <spam16384@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d465q4$19i9$1@news.vol.cz...
> On 2005-04-20 19:28:23, Hugo Kornelis <Angband@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om>
wrote:
>
> > On 20 Apr 2005 05:42:41 -0700, magnate wrote:
>
> A question for Jeff: Do NPP rangers also get similar +hit/+dam bonuses
with
> long bows as rogues do with slings?

No. They just get the extra shot. Long bows have a higher multiplier, so
it isn't quite necessary.

>
> > >Instead of doing that, you could just use the quiver code from O or S.
> > >This would solve the problem.
>
> Implement the quiver code, Jeff!!!

I am in the middle of some very complicated changes for 050 at the moment.
Is anyone out there willing to do a patch for me (based on Oanband)?

I know there is much else to read & reply to in this thread, but I just ran
out of time for now.....

-Jeff

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Timo writes:
>I'm not familiar with quiver. How does it work and why do we need it?

It's in ToME, and presumably S. ToME has a large (ridiculous) number
of wielded objects, one of them is the quiver. If the quiver is filled
(via wielding a missile stack), it is where your missiles are selected
from. I actually have mixed feelings about it. If you want to
intersperse ordinary and branded shots, it requires an extra turn to
unwield the quiver, or wield the other stack.

On the other hand, it does free a slot in the pack.

In any case, it's just a minor convenience; the functionality is the
same as adding some macros.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

The functionality is different actually. In S and O you lose one
inventory slot per 99 arrows in the quiver. So it lets you carry a
diverse selection of arrows and doesn't punish you for them having
different brands and enchantment levels.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:08:04 +0000 (UTC), Gallowglass wrote:

(snip)
>A question for Jeff: Do NPP rangers also get similar +hit/+dam bonuses with
>long bows as rogues do with slings?

Hi Gallowglass,

As far as I can tell, they don't. If they did, I'd expect to see the
code at the same location in the source as the sling bonus for rogues,
and it's not there.


(snip)
>Inscriptions inscriptions inscriptions.

Addressed in my previous message (posted as a reply to Jürgen).


(snip)
>Why would you have auto-inscribe and "merge inscriptions when stacking"
>set to off?

To prevent stacking of staves or wands. Suppose you have a wand of fire
balls, with only one charge left, then find a new one. If you ID it,
they will stack. Repeat this often enough, and you end up with a stack
of 10 wands for 13 charges, and speed -3 because of the heavy load. So I
inscribe the old one {Use this one first} before ID'ing the new one.

Best, Hugo
--
Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!

(Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)

 

[magnate]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Hi Timo - the quiver has 10 "slots" labelled 0-9, which are added to
the foot of your equipment list. You fire from a slot using "f0" to
"f9", just as if they were inscribed. If you actually inscribe them, it
will place them in that specific slot in the quiver. So you can make
sure your normal arrows go in slot 0, your branded arrows in slot 3
etc. etc. You can also make macros using the slot numbers. It really is
neat.

I know you don't play much S, but I'm surprised you haven't given an O
ranger a try!

All the best,

CC

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-21 00:23:21, Hugo Kornelis <Angband@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 18:08:04 +0000 (UTC), Gallowglass wrote:

> (snip)
> >Inscriptions inscriptions inscriptions.
>
> Addressed in my previous message (posted as a reply to J�rgen).

can't see your reply in oook, so replying here.
You're problem with too many inscriptions?
Have one inscription, eg. @f0 for all "normal arrows"
ie. the arrow you least value, and want to use up first.
Then unid'd normal arrows get that inscription, too.
You'll have multiple stacks with the same inscription, but it doesn't matter.

>
>
> (snip)
> >Why would you have auto-inscribe and "merge inscriptions when stacking"
> >set to off?
>
> To prevent stacking of staves or wands. Suppose you have a wand of fire
> balls, with only one charge left, then find a new one. If you ID it,
> they will stack. Repeat this often enough, and you end up with a stack
> of 10 wands for 13 charges, and speed -3 because of the heavy load. So I
> inscribe the old one {Use this one first} before ID'ing the new one.

You can consider toggling merge on/off depending on circumstances. That will
allow autoinscribe to work whenever merge is on.


--
Gallowglass

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-21 02:18:00, "Jeff Greene" <nppangband@spam.spam.spam.spam,> wrote:

> "Gallowglass" wrote in message
> news:d465q4$19i9$1@news.vol.cz...
> > On 2005-04-20 19:28:23, Hugo Kornelis
> wrote:
> >
> > > On 20 Apr 2005 05:42:41 -0700, magnate wrote:
> >
> > A question for Jeff: Do NPP rangers also get similar +hit/+dam bonuses
> with
> > long bows as rogues do with slings?
>
> No. They just get the extra shot. Long bows have a higher multiplier, so
> it isn't quite necessary.

I dunno.... seems uneven. The +hit bonus, especially is very nice.
Rangers do 50 % more damage than Rogues. If the +hit bonus allows rogues to
hit 33% more of the time, and the +dam gives, say 5% more dmg, then Rogues
would do 138 to the Ranger's 150, only 8 % less than a Ranger.

Considering range weapons are supposed to be a Ranger's bailiwick, this doesn't
seem quite fair. Then again, the 33 and 5 percent numbers are pulled out of
thin
air. Anyone wanna run typical to-hit numbers for Rangers/Rogues using range
weapons vs. Morgoth?


> I know there is much else to read & reply to in this thread, but I just ran
> out of time for now.....

Thanks for alll your work on NPP. Fantastic Variant. Now if only I could
somehow
channel pelpel so I could play 0.4.1 instead of 0.4.0.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Timo Pietilä" <timo.pietila@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:d45kqg$ie5$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> Hugo Kornelis wrote:
>
> > screen so that both bonusses are independently visible. (Or maybe you
> > can find a way to indicate expected damage range?)
>
> This should be rather easy for both melee and missiles as long as we
> forget criticals, slays and brands. After that average damage is just
> simple calculation. Maybe adventurers guild could have damage calculator
> that gives more accurate explanation including slays and brands (crits
> are harder, because monster AC affects this).
>
I don't mind having a screen that shows damage range for a weapon. In
general I think anything that increases understanding of the game is a good
thing. At the same time, I am inclined to change multipliers from slays and
brands, bow multiplies so that they double or triple the number of damage
dice rather than multiplying the result of the original calculation. The
damage from slays would be more consistent that way, and it would be much
easier to display a page like this.

-Jeff

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Jeff Greene wrote:
> "Gallowglass" <spam16384@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:d465q4$19i9$1@news.vol.cz...

>>>>Instead of doing that, you could just use the quiver code from O or S.
>>>>This would solve the problem.
>>
>>Implement the quiver code, Jeff!!!
>
> I am in the middle of some very complicated changes for 050 at the moment.
> Is anyone out there willing to do a patch for me (based on Oanband)?

I'm not familiar with quiver. How does it work and why do we need it?

Timo Pietilä

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Timo Pietilä" <timo.pietila@helsinki.fi> wrote in message
news:d47bh2$f6t$4@oravannahka.helsinki.fi...
> Jeff Greene wrote:
> > "Gallowglass" <spam16384@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:d465q4$19i9$1@news.vol.cz...
>
> >>>>Instead of doing that, you could just use the quiver code from O or S.
> >>>>This would solve the problem.
> >>
> >>Implement the quiver code, Jeff!!!
> >
> > I am in the middle of some very complicated changes for 050 at the
moment.
> > Is anyone out there willing to do a patch for me (based on Oanband)?
>
> I'm not familiar with quiver. How does it work and why do we need it?
>
It is a place for ammunition. Instead of the way it works now, where each
different type of ammo takes up a slot, all ammo goes into a quiver. For
every 99 (I forget the real number) arrows/bolts/shots the quiver is
holding, it counts as an inventory slot.

-Jeff

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-04-21 06:51:47, =?ISO-8859-15?Q?Timo_Pietilä?=
<timo.pietila@helsinki.fi> wrote:

>
> I'm not familiar with quiver. How does it work and why do we need it?
>
> Timo Pietilä

It's a cheat that makes Rangers more powerful.

It IIUC lets you carry multiple kinds of ammunition, but they only take up
inventory space according to the total ammo you carry. If you have 1-99
arrows, they take 1 inventory slot, if you have 100-198, they take 2 slots and
so on.

For example, carrying

40 Arrows (+0, +0),
40 Arrows of Wounding (+12, +13),
40 Arrows of Venom (+5, +8) and
40 Arrows of Slay Evil (+10, +15)

would only take 2 slots since 4x 40 = 160 (= 99 + 61)

--
--

Anssi Ramela

anssi.ramela@myy.helia.fi

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Jeff Greene writes:
>I don't mind having a screen that shows damage range for a weapon.
>In general I think anything that increases understanding of the game i


Tome does a pretty good job of it. If you 'I'dentify a missile while
an appropriate launcher is wielded, it tells you the average expected
damage/hit against all monster classes (vulnerable and invulnerable to
any slays/brands.)

It does the same for all melee weapons (wielded and unwielded.)

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Scott Yost wrote:
> The functionality is different actually. In S and O you lose one
> inventory slot per 99 arrows in the quiver. So it lets you carry a
> diverse selection of arrows and doesn't punish you for them having
> different brands and enchantment levels.

Hmm... How do you choose between different arrows in quiver? Can you
make a macro just like if they are in inventory?

Timo Pietilä

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Gallowglass wrote:
> On 2005-04-21 02:18:00, "Jeff Greene"
<nppangband@spam.spam.spam.spam,> wrote:
>
> > "Gallowglass" wrote in message
> > news:d465q4$19i9$1@news.vol.cz...
> > > On 2005-04-20 19:28:23, Hugo Kornelis
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 20 Apr 2005 05:42:41 -0700, magnate wrote:
> > >
> > > A question for Jeff: Do NPP rangers also get similar +hit/+dam
bonuses
> > with
> > > long bows as rogues do with slings?
> >
> > No. They just get the extra shot. Long bows have a higher
multiplier, so
> > it isn't quite necessary.
>
> I dunno.... seems uneven. The +hit bonus, especially is very nice.
> Rangers do 50 % more damage than Rogues. If the +hit bonus allows
rogues to
> hit 33% more of the time, and the +dam gives, say 5% more dmg, then
Rogues
> would do 138 to the Ranger's 150, only 8 % less than a Ranger.
>
> Considering range weapons are supposed to be a Ranger's bailiwick,
this doesn't
> seem quite fair. Then again, the 33 and 5 percent numbers are pulled
out of
> thin

The ranger has a 45 for thb in p_class.txt, the rogue only 30,
so rangers will outshoot rogues despite the bonus if I
understand the calculations.

> air. Anyone wanna run typical to-hit numbers for Rangers/Rogues
using range
> weapons vs. Morgoth?

I thought that the intent was for rogues to want to use slings.
If this is not the intent, ignore the rest of my post.

Consider my comp character.
a Sling of Extra Might (x2) (+16,+16) (+1)
a Light Crossbow of the Haradrim (x3) (+22,+20) (+1)

I think that is typical. I have seen only one sling+might all game,
and several x4+1shot xbows, so it is not surprising that the bonuses
are an additional +5 for the best xbow.

Lets compare branded mithril ammo (mithril shots are best sling
ammo, mithril bolts are only medium xbow ammo). Let's give the
rogue a multiplicatively applied damage bonus of cLevel/3, or 16
for a cLevel 50 rogue. Call the ammo's damage bonus D and the
brand multiplier B.

Then the comparison is
sling: 3 * B * (16 + 5 + D + 16) = 111B + 3BD
xbow: 4 * B * (20 + 9 + D) = 116B + 4BD

So even with the bonus applied multiplicatively, the xbow does more
damage. It also has a +6 to-hit, so the rogue is only +15-6 = +9
better with the sling, less than a chant scroll.

Seeker bolts make it even more skewed toward the xbow.

Even if you make the bonus multiplicative, rogues will probably
use xbows more than slings. The current additive bonus makes
slings definitely second-class even for rogues.

The *only* reason I am using a sling at all in the comp is because
I ran out of acid/elec branded bolts, and am using said branded sling
shots until they run out. When the acid shots run out, back to the
xbow.


Eddie