[comp31] YACD - Oath of Iron

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I decided to try a warrior as you have to invest in barehand combat
skills anyway. Main skills are Wrestling, Perception, Spell Resistance.
But I have taken a very broad range of skills... maybe too many?

Seems that Ironman chars should take the Oath of Iron.
Almost free ID and the combat bonuses are worth it.
I only need to get down to 4900' before I run out of food ;)

This char has had several close calls, as I have been careless.
Mughash was easy but his escorts almost had me.
For five levels I wielded a ring of teleportation {cursed}.
Now going strong - Ufthak was killed in five rounds.


[Sangband 0.9.9, beta 15d Character Dump]

Oober, the Tussler Age : 166 Str: 17 18/10
Height : 5 ft, 5 in INT: 18
Weight : 102 lb Wis: 9 15
Gender : Male DEX: 14
Race : Dark-Elf Slayer of CON: 13
Ufthak of Cirith Ungol CHR: 10

Max Hit Points 179 Power 41 Max Mana 0
Cur Hit Points 179 Score 30 Cur Mana 0

(Melee) Unspent Exp 144 (Missile)
Blows/Round 2 Gold 9385 Shots/Round 1
Average Damage 44 + to Skill 8
(Wrestling) Max Depth 900 ft Deadliness (%) 33

(Character Abilities)
Melee : Very Good Saving Throw: Excellent Magic Device: Very Good
Shooting : Excellent Stealth : Good Dodging : Fair
Throwing : Good Perception : Superb Fame : Mentioned
Digging : Fair Disarming : Excellent Infra-Vision: 20 feet

Speed : -1
Armour : 36
Kills : 953
Time Elapsed: 4 days, 17 hours, 30 minutes (472932 turns)


[Character Attributes]

abcdefghijkl@ Stat Intrnl abcdefghijkl@ Adjust Currnt
Stlth:...........1. Str: 17 ...s........2 18/10 17
Invis:............. INT: 15 ............3 18
Aware:.....2....... Wis: 15 ............. 15 9
Disar:............. DEX: 11 ...s........3 14
Devic:............. CON: 14 ...s........1 13
Speed:............. CHR: 11 ............1 10

abcdefghijkl@ abcdefghijkl@
Infra:............2 NFuel:.............
Tunnl:............2 Steal:.............
Save :............. NoMag:.............
Mana :............. Telep:.............
Light:.....2....... Aggra:.............
Drain:.............

Curse:.............

abcdefghijkl@ abcdefghijkl@ abcdefghijkl@
Acid :......+...... Light:............. Food :....+........
Elec :............. Dark :............. Feath:.............
Fire :............. Sound:............. Shine:.............
Cold :............. Shard:............. Regen:.............
Pois :............. Nexus:............. ESP :.............
Fear :............. Nethr:............. SeeIn:.............
Blind:............. Chaos:............. FrAct:..+..........
Confu:............. Disen:............. HLife:.............


[Skills]

Swordsmanship : 20%
Clubbing : 5%
Jousting : 10%
Archery - Xbows : 12%
Archery - Bows : 24%
Throwing : 17%
Wrestling : 50%
Karate : 21%
Wizardry : 20%
Nature Lore : 20%
Magical Device : 25%
Burglary : 27%
Perception : 40%
Stealth : 25%
Disarming : 25%
Dodging : 35%
Spell Resistance : 50%

You have taken the Oath of Iron.


[Character Equipment]

a Long Bow (x3) (+8,+6) {Golfimbul, the Hill Orc Chief}
an Alexandrite Ring of Free Action
a Jet Ring of Sustain Body {Wormtongue, Agent of Saruman}
a Bone Amulet of Slow Digestion
a Wooden Torch of Acuity [2] <Fuel: 4696> // This is excellent
Hard Studded Leather of Resist Acid (-1) [7,+4]
a Cloak [1,+9] {Grishnakh, the Hill Orc}
a Wicker Shield [2,+3] {Brodda, the Easterling}
a Metal Cap [3,+0]
a Set of Mail Gauntlets [2,+2]
a Pair of Hard Leather Boots of Stealth [3,+0] (+1 to stealth) {Mughash
a Pouch (holding 10 essences of 6 types)
19 Arrows of Hurt Animal (1d4) (+3,+5) {Wormtongue, Agent of Saruman}
23 Arrows (1d4) (+2,+2)
29 Arrows (1d4) (+1,+3)
22 Arrows (1d4) (+0,+0)


[Character Inventory]

3 Green Mushrooms of Cure Poison
5 Lemon Speckled Mushrooms of Cure Confusion
21 Red Mushrooms of Boldness
6 Rations of Food
11 Flasks of oil
2 Grey Speckled Potions of Detect Invisible
a Violet Potion of Invisibility
2 Puce Potions of Speed
4 Scrolls titled "itder biemik" of Phase Door {25% off}
2 Scrolls titled "iha re ypapp" of Teleportation
15 Scrolls titled "umar ab aban" of Detect Invisible
a Beryllium Rod of Light
a Carbonized Rod of Summon Hither
a Sapphire Rod {tried}
a Chromium Wand of Sleep Monster (8 charges)
a Titanium Wand of Lightning Bolts
a Bamboo Staff of Perception (6 charges)
a Spruce Staff of Remove Curse
a Birch Staff of Cure Medium Wounds (11 charges)
a Birch Staff of Cure Medium Wounds {unknown}
2 Wooden Torches [2] <Fuel: 3500>
a Brass Lantern [2] <Fuel: 13280>


[Special advantages and disadvantages]
You refuse to return to the town or go up any stairs until victorious.
 
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Juho Schultz wrote:
> I decided to try a warrior as you have to invest in barehand combat
> skills anyway. Main skills are Wrestling, Perception, Spell
Resistance.
> But I have taken a very broad range of skills... maybe too many?

Why did you choose Wrestling instead of Karate? Karate's cost is much
lower for Dark Elves....

How useful is the Burglary for you?

I don't see you carrying any weapons; what caused you to put XP into
the weapon skills?

> Seems that Ironman chars should take the Oath of Iron.
> Almost free ID and the combat bonuses are worth it.

Hard to say. I think some of the spells that spellcasters get might be
useful; necromancy's uncurse and bless spells, particularly.

> I only need to get down to 4900' before I run out of food ;)

:eek:)

> This char has had several close calls, as I have been careless.
> Mughash was easy but his escorts almost had me.
> For five levels I wielded a ring of teleportation {cursed}.

Ah! That's what killed my last guy :eek:( Glad you made it out ok!

> Now going strong - Ufthak was killed in five rounds.

Yeah, unarmed combat is a tad overpowered, isn't it.

Good luck!

(that ego torch is awesome)

--
Matt
mattneu@gmail.com
 
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mattneu wrote:
> Juho Schultz wrote:
> > I decided to try a warrior as you have to invest in barehand combat
> > skills anyway. Main skills are Wrestling, Perception, Spell
> Resistance.
> > But I have taken a very broad range of skills... maybe too many?
>
> Why did you choose Wrestling instead of Karate? Karate's cost is
much
> lower for Dark Elves....

There isn't that much difference in costs. It is better not to
worry about the experience multipliers.

Wrestling damage is based on Str, Karate based on Dex [if the help
files are correct], so if the Str is higher it is better to go for
wrestling.

Actually, back when I was hooked on S, it seemed right to raise
Wrestling to 40, and then Karate to 60, for the two points of strength.
In an ironman game, where strength is crucial, I think this is the way
to go.

> I don't see you carrying any weapons; what caused you to put XP into
> the weapon skills?

Eventually you need them. You definitely need an attack with a
pointed weapon. Since you cannot fire arrows at ghosts in walls,
it pays to learn sword/spear.

> Yeah, unarmed combat is a tad overpowered, isn't it.

I do not think so. I think that the weapons are underpowered.
There is a difference.


Eddie
 

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Eddie Grove wrote:
> mattneu wrote:
> > Juho Schultz wrote:

> > > I decided to try a warrior as you have to invest in barehand
combat
> > > skills anyway. Main skills are Wrestling, Perception, Spell
Resistance
> > > But I have taken a very broad range of skills... maybe too many?

> > Why did you choose Wrestling instead of Karate? Karate's cost is
much
> > lower for Dark Elves....

> There isn't that much difference in costs. It is better not to
> worry about the experience multipliers.

Wow, I'm surprised to hear you say that - when you played S you were
dead keen to optimise spent experience! The difference in cost for a
dark elf is almost 40% (1.1 for karate and 1.5 for wrestling).

> Wrestling damage is based on Str, Karate based on Dex [if the help
> files are correct], so if the Str is higher it is better to go for
> wrestling.

This is actually a much more important reason - my own char is going
the karate route and is doing plenty enough damage, but I'm not as deep
as Juno so the difference may become important later on.

> Actually, back when I was hooked on S, it seemed right to raise
> Wrestling to 40, and then Karate to 60, for the two points of
strength.
> In an ironman game, where strength is crucial, I think this is the
way
> to go.

Agreed. I'm doing this now (karate is at 40, wresting in the 20s; when
wrestling gets to 40 I'll pump the karate to 60).

> > I don't see you carrying any weapons; what caused you to put XP
into
> > the weapon skills?

> Eventually you need them. You definitely need an attack with a
> pointed weapon. Since you cannot fire arrows at ghosts in walls,
> it pays to learn sword/spear.

Presumably, as a non-spellcaster, he needed a weapon because he hadn't
found (m)any bless/chant/prayer scrolls. I think you could get away
without if you had access to blessing (eg. a spell), because there are
very few baddies that can't be harmed with martial arts even when
blessed, and you could avoid those.

> > Yeah, unarmed combat is a tad overpowered, isn't it.

> I do not think so. I think that the weapons are underpowered.
> There is a difference.

Agreed here too, certainly for the first half of the game. By end stat
gain (4 or more attacks) you do more damage with a decent weapon (plus
it can confer resists, stat boosts etc.). Feels like it would be very
tricky to rebalance though.

Juno - well done on trying an Oath of Ironman (!) - I've always been
too scared of the food problem to do so. I guess an amulet of
sustenance would come in handy though ...

Good luck,

CC
 
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magnate wrote:
> Eddie Grove wrote:
> > mattneu wrote:
> > > Juho Schultz wrote:
>
> > > > I decided to try a warrior as you have to invest in barehand
> combat
> > > > skills anyway. Main skills are Wrestling, Perception, Spell
> Resistance
> > > > But I have taken a very broad range of skills... maybe too
many?
>
> > > Why did you choose Wrestling instead of Karate? Karate's cost is
> much
> > > lower for Dark Elves....
>
> > There isn't that much difference in costs. It is better not to
> > worry about the experience multipliers.
>
> Wow, I'm surprised to hear you say that - when you played S you were
> dead keen to optimise spent experience! The difference in cost for a
> dark elf is almost 40% (1.1 for karate and 1.5 for wrestling).

Oh - I would still optimize how I spent the experience, trying
to keep everything as balanced as possible. I always bumped both
of them.

The cost of raising karate to 60 might be less than the cost
of raising wrestling to 55. So if one prefers wrestling, then
the 1.5 vs 1.1 is not that relevant.

> > Actually, back when I was hooked on S, it seemed right to raise
> > Wrestling to 40, and then Karate to 60, for the two points of
> strength.
> > In an ironman game, where strength is crucial, I think this is the
> way
> > to go.
>
> Agreed. I'm doing this now (karate is at 40, wresting in the 20s;
when
> wrestling gets to 40 I'll pump the karate to 60).

I think it might be worth raising karate to 20, but then you should
raise
wrestling to 40 rather than karate to 40.

> Presumably, as a non-spellcaster, he needed a weapon because he
hadn't
> found (m)any bless/chant/prayer scrolls. I think you could get away
> without if you had access to blessing (eg. a spell), because there
are
> very few baddies that can't be harmed with martial arts even when
> blessed, and you could avoid those.

You are missing something. Even when blessed, martial arts are blunt
attacks. Most of the ghostly types resist blunt, so you want to have
a pointed attack. I think in the midgame, you really want to have a
pointed attack of fire and a blunt attack of acid, IIRC.

I never played spellcasters, of course. :)


Eddie
 
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"Eddie Grove" <eddiegrove@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1116346819.723349.269800@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> mattneu wrote:
>
>> Yeah, unarmed combat is a tad overpowered, isn't it.
>
> I do not think so. I think that the weapons are underpowered.
> There is a difference.

Though it sounds weird, I'd like to see unarmed "weapons."
Things that still used unarmed skills, but boosted some aspect
or offered new ability. Then raw unarmed damage could be toned
down, and it could also offer new options for unarmed at higher
levels. Brass knuckles could add more damage, claws could change
unarmed damage from blunt to pointed, blessed or brand status
could be added, etc.

If not actual weapon-slot items, then perhaps adding unarmed
consideration to some armor, similar to the general shield bash
attack. Kicking someone with metal shoes definitely hurts, and
magic gauntlets of beating things down should improve a punch
though they might not improve weapon attacks. Spiked armor could
improve wrestling damage (and maybe offer an "offensive" defense
against monsters with direct contact attacks), and perhaps there
could be things like magic acid branded plate mail.

Though the latter are getting a bit far from the Angband source
idea, they are just examples of the idea.
 
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Juho Schultz wrote:
> mattneu wrote:
> > Juho Schultz wrote:
> >
> > Why did you choose Wrestling instead of Karate? Karate's cost is
much
> > lower for Dark Elves....
> >
> Wrestling deals more damage and at start the char has higher STR.
> High wrestling means you can also dig bare-handed

Wow. I didn't know about that. Cool. Points into wrestling for my
Oober, then!

> through granite which
> is important for Ironman + Oath of Iron char. And the extra STR is
nice,
> I hate being slowed and the Ironman carries his home with him.
>
>
> > Hard to say. I think some of the spells that spellcasters get
might be
> > useful; necromancy's uncurse and bless spells, particularly.
> >
> Of course some spells are useful... But the improved pseudo-id
> (especially with the Torch of Acuity and high perception skill)
> is essentially free ID of weapons and armor. And this way you don't
> have to worry about books. Getting the deeper books may be hard.
> Good weapons are more common.

Very true; I'd forgotten about pseudo-id bonuses from the Oath.

> >
> >>I only need to get down to 4900' before I run out of food ;)
> >
> >
> > :eek:)
> >
> Well, this attempt did not do it... I was cut from stairs by
something
> surrounded by permanent rock. Tried to dig around but it was huge.
> Then I tried to teleport - no luck. Then tried an unknown scroll,
> hoping for teleport level - Summon Undead. The RNG must be
laughing...

Ouch!

> > (that ego torch is awesome)
> >
> I had Heroic searching for some time, and it activates for
Illumination.
> For non-ironman this would be better than the Phial, but now it has
zero
> light radius, not that good... a cap of light would be nice.

I was tempted to invest in Holy Alliance, for the eventual light radius
bonus....

--
Matt
mattneu@gmail.com
 
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Billy Bissette wrote:
> Though it sounds weird, I'd like to see unarmed "weapons."
> Things that still used unarmed skills, but boosted some aspect
> or offered new ability. Then raw unarmed damage could be toned
> down, and it could also offer new options for unarmed at higher
> levels. Brass knuckles could add more damage, claws could change
> unarmed damage from blunt to pointed, blessed or brand status
> could be added, etc.

Make the paurfoo gauntlets special by having unarmed attacks while
wearing them branded with the appropriate element? Cammithrim grants
blessed unarmed blows? etc...

> If not actual weapon-slot items, then perhaps adding unarmed
> consideration to some armor, similar to the general shield bash
> attack. Kicking someone with metal shoes definitely hurts, and
> magic gauntlets of beating things down should improve a punch
> though they might not improve weapon attacks.

Shades of doom's berserk medpacks?

--
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Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
 
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mattneu wrote:
> Juho Schultz wrote:
>
>>I decided to try a warrior as you have to invest in barehand combat
>>skills anyway. Main skills are Wrestling, Perception, Spell
>
> Resistance.
>
>>But I have taken a very broad range of skills... maybe too many?
>
>
> Why did you choose Wrestling instead of Karate? Karate's cost is much
> lower for Dark Elves....
>
Wrestling deals more damage and at start the char has higher STR.
High wrestling means you can also dig bare-handed through granite which
is important for Ironman + Oath of Iron char. And the extra STR is nice,
I hate being slowed and the Ironman carries his home with him.

> How useful is the Burglary for you?
>
I often use something like this:

######
#.^^.@
#.####
#.####
Both traps are equipped with a melee weapon. This is assuming something
without breath attack is following. If you manage to scare the monster
you hit, it runs back through the traps.

With two weapons (2d5, 2d6) I managed to kill an entire pack of Mirkwood
Spiders, they never even touched me. Set up the traps, wake up the
monsters, run behind the corner and watch the experience counter.


> I don't see you carrying any weapons; what caused you to put XP into
> the weapon skills?
>
>
I had a sabre of frost but a water vortex destroyed it. You need weapons
against ghosts. A warspike would be great. And while I am dreaming,
something like a Bluesteel Blade (Holy Avenger) would be even better...

>>Seems that Ironman chars should take the Oath of Iron.
>>Almost free ID and the combat bonuses are worth it.
>
>
> Hard to say. I think some of the spells that spellcasters get might be
> useful; necromancy's uncurse and bless spells, particularly.
>
Of course some spells are useful... But the improved pseudo-id
(especially with the Torch of Acuity and high perception skill)
is essentially free ID of weapons and armor. And this way you don't
have to worry about books. Getting the deeper books may be hard.
Good weapons are more common.

>
>>I only need to get down to 4900' before I run out of food ;)
>
>
> :eek:)
>
Well, this attempt did not do it... I was cut from stairs by something
surrounded by permanent rock. Tried to dig around but it was huge.
Then I tried to teleport - no luck. Then tried an unknown scroll,
hoping for teleport level - Summon Undead. The RNG must be laughing...

>
>>This char has had several close calls, as I have been careless.
>>Mughash was easy but his escorts almost had me.
>>For five levels I wielded a ring of teleportation {cursed}.
>
>
> Ah! That's what killed my last guy :eek:( Glad you made it out ok!
>
>
>>Now going strong - Ufthak was killed in five rounds.
>
>
> Yeah, unarmed combat is a tad overpowered, isn't it.
>
It is practically useless against ghosts...
and you miss all the bonuses a weapon gives.
Not that important at dlvl 20 but very important at dlvl 50.

> Good luck!
>
> (that ego torch is awesome)
>
I had Heroic searching for some time, and it activates for Illumination.
For non-ironman this would be better than the Phial, but now it has zero
light radius, not that good... a cap of light would be nice.
 
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Twisted One wrote:
> Billy Bissette wrote:
>
>> Though it sounds weird, I'd like to see unarmed "weapons."
>> Things that still used unarmed skills, but boosted some aspect
>> or offered new ability. Then raw unarmed damage could be toned
>> down, and it could also offer new options for unarmed at higher
>> levels. Brass knuckles could add more damage, claws could change
>> unarmed damage from blunt to pointed, blessed or brand status
>> could be added, etc.
>
>
> Make the paurfoo gauntlets special by having unarmed attacks while
> wearing them branded with the appropriate element? Cammithrim grants
> blessed unarmed blows? etc...
>

Cammithrim is already a machine-gun. No need to improve it...

Paur* would get very powerful with this. It is like scrolls of
elemental attacks (native to 1250' and not too common) but the
effect would not run out and you know what it is beforehand.

>> If not actual weapon-slot items, then perhaps adding unarmed
>> consideration to some armor, similar to the general shield bash
>> attack. Kicking someone with metal shoes definitely hurts, and
>> magic gauntlets of beating things down should improve a punch
>> though they might not improve weapon attacks.
>
>
> Shades of doom's berserk medpacks?
>