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GPS Phones and T3

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January 29, 2005 5:48:16 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

I've had a bad case of brain static and come up with a question.

The new cell-phones are GPS enabled, they have to be for 9-1-1 to
work. Some of them are able to output the GPS data to computers, I
don't know which ones yet. Some of the cell-phones are Blue Tooth
enabled.

Here's the question. Does anyone know if there is a cell-phone with
Blue Tooth that can output the GPS data to my T3 running Mapopolis?

TIA

Jack

More about : gps phones

Anonymous
January 29, 2005 7:56:19 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

In article <g6ulv01v2b84at9vmpblbju8gddanpbg13@4ax.com>, Jack
<jackj1//hates spam//@adelphia.net> says...
> I've had a bad case of brain static and come up with a question.
>
> The new cell-phones are GPS enabled, they have to be for 9-1-1 to
> work. Some of them are able to output the GPS data to computers, I
> don't know which ones yet. Some of the cell-phones are Blue Tooth
> enabled.
>
> Here's the question. Does anyone know if there is a cell-phone with
> Blue Tooth that can output the GPS data to my T3 running Mapopolis?
>
> TIA
>
> Jack
>
>

That was not brain static, it was a brain fart. ( 8(|)
IIRC 911 gets it's positioning by triangling the transmiting towers, not
the cellphone itself. Satelite phones are GPS, not cellphones.

--
Hope this helps.
Jim Anderson
( 8(|) To email me just pull my_finger
Anonymous
January 29, 2005 2:02:15 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Nextel has a phone now that my company is using for its drivers with built in
GPS allowing them to verify what they are doing and when. The driver has to
push an acknowledgement button to prove he was at the right place at the right
time! Not sure of the specifics and I am glad that my job doesn't require the
phone to be with me! :-)
Related resources
January 29, 2005 5:55:57 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

You could very well be right about the brain fart.

Currently the cell phones are located by finding out which cell they
are working in. That locates them to an area, not an exact address.
The new USA FCC rules require that the phone be locateable to within
feet of it's actual located when it connects to the 911 system. This
means that the phone knows where it is and sends that info to the 911
system. The only way to do that is with the GPS system.

You are correct in that most cell systems are not fully GPS enabled
yet but it will be happening within the next few years. New phones
are avaible now that do this.

Jack

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 04:56:19 GMT, Jim Anderson
<fro2750@frontiernet.my_finger.net> wrote:

>In article <g6ulv01v2b84at9vmpblbju8gddanpbg13@4ax.com>, Jack
><jackj1//hates spam//@adelphia.net> says...
>> I've had a bad case of brain static and come up with a question.
>>
>> The new cell-phones are GPS enabled, they have to be for 9-1-1 to
>> work. Some of them are able to output the GPS data to computers, I
>> don't know which ones yet. Some of the cell-phones are Blue Tooth
>> enabled.
>>
>> Here's the question. Does anyone know if there is a cell-phone with
>> Blue Tooth that can output the GPS data to my T3 running Mapopolis?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> Jack
>>
>>
>
>That was not brain static, it was a brain fart. ( 8(|)
>IIRC 911 gets it's positioning by triangling the transmiting towers, not
>the cellphone itself. Satelite phones are GPS, not cellphones.
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 11:55:49 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Jack napsal(a):
> You could very well be right about the brain fart.
>
> Currently the cell phones are located by finding out which cell they
> are working in. That locates them to an area, not an exact address.
> The new USA FCC rules require that the phone be locateable to within
> feet of it's actual located when it connects to the 911 system. This
> means that the phone knows where it is and sends that info to the 911
> system. The only way to do that is with the GPS system.

Not at all. The phone can most of the time "see" more cells than the one
it communicates through. During a call / data transfer the phone
measures the time lag from respective cells, and a special application
(here in Europe most often storen on a SIM card usin SIMtoolkit API)
send these data to the operator, which triangulates the phone's location
using BTS database. If you need on-the-fly localisation of the
respective phone, the provider sends the coordinates back via a GPRS
data transfer in form of NMEA datagrams, which you can route into your
mapping software.
In densely covered areas this method is accurate down to meters, in
rural areas down to tens of meters. Generally, if you "see" 3 cells, you
are pinpointed, with 2 you get 2 points at which you can be, with a
single cell available you get a circular arc (dependin on the coverage
of the respective aerial of the cell).
In real life, because nondirectional aerials are not used anymore, you
get overlapping arcs, and the providers software "guesses" your exact
location in the area using statistical calculations. Voila, you won't
hide from me :-)

I can only add that this method was first used here in Czech republic,
five years from now, and many spedition companies use it in thousands of
trucks. You only need SIMtoolkit compatible phone in the car, a
Localizer-enabled SIM card, and a computer with GPRS modem in your
dispatch centre. The software is provided by your cellular provider at
no charge, you only pay a reasonable monthly fee and data transferred
(which isn't much, as one NMEA datagram is <128bytes and you only need
to update your position if you move by say 100 meters). Much cheaper
than GPS receivers + software.
Mark
February 3, 2005 2:04:05 AM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:55:49 +0100, Marek Stan?k
<marekdotstanek@post.cz> wrote:

>Jack napsal(a):
>> You could very well be right about the brain fart.
>>
>> Currently the cell phones are located by finding out which cell they
>> are working in. That locates them to an area, not an exact address.
>> The new USA FCC rules require that the phone be locateable to within
>> feet of it's actual located when it connects to the 911 system. This
>> means that the phone knows where it is and sends that info to the 911
>> system. The only way to do that is with the GPS system.
>
>Not at all. The phone can most of the time "see" more cells than the one
>it communicates through. During a call / data transfer the phone
>measures the time lag from respective cells, and a special application
>(here in Europe most often storen on a SIM card usin SIMtoolkit API)
>send these data to the operator, which triangulates the phone's location
>using BTS database. If you need on-the-fly localisation of the
>respective phone, the provider sends the coordinates back via a GPRS
>data transfer in form of NMEA datagrams, which you can route into your
>mapping software.
>In densely covered areas this method is accurate down to meters, in
>rural areas down to tens of meters. Generally, if you "see" 3 cells, you
>are pinpointed, with 2 you get 2 points at which you can be, with a
>single cell available you get a circular arc (dependin on the coverage
>of the respective aerial of the cell).
>In real life, because nondirectional aerials are not used anymore, you
>get overlapping arcs, and the providers software "guesses" your exact
>location in the area using statistical calculations. Voila, you won't
>hide from me :-)
>
>I can only add that this method was first used here in Czech republic,
>five years from now, and many spedition companies use it in thousands of
>trucks. You only need SIMtoolkit compatible phone in the car, a
>Localizer-enabled SIM card, and a computer with GPRS modem in your
>dispatch centre. The software is provided by your cellular provider at
>no charge, you only pay a reasonable monthly fee and data transferred
>(which isn't much, as one NMEA datagram is <128bytes and you only need
>to update your position if you move by say 100 meters). Much cheaper
>than GPS receivers + software.
>Mark

It isn't that way here in the US. I currently have a Sprint PCS cell
phone through my job. That phone can NOT be located any closer than
one of the three segments that a cell covers. Each cell base station
has three directional antennas and the existing phones can only be
located to within one of the three segments.

You method might work well in a "free-space" environment but it won't
work in cities. Most of the cell phones here in the states operate at
around 2 GHz. At those frequencies the signal acts like light and
bounces off almost everything. So you have multi-path distortion
which will cause your delay times to bounce all over the chart.

My boss has informed us that we are going to get new cell phones that
are GPS enabled. Hence my question about blue tooth and GPS. Our
current phones are not GPS enabled phones.

Jack
Anonymous
February 6, 2005 9:29:55 PM

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops.pilot (More info?)

Jack napsal(a):
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 08:55:49 +0100, Marek Stan?k
> <marekdotstanek@post.cz> wrote:
>
>
>>Jack napsal(a):
>>
>>>You could very well be right about the brain fart.
>>>
>>>Currently the cell phones are located by finding out which cell they
>>>are working in. That locates them to an area, not an exact address.
>>>The new USA FCC rules require that the phone be locateable to within
>>>feet of it's actual located when it connects to the 911 system. This
>>>means that the phone knows where it is and sends that info to the 911
>>>system. The only way to do that is with the GPS system.
>>
>>Not at all. The phone can most of the time "see" more cells than the one
>>it communicates through. During a call / data transfer the phone
>>measures the time lag from respective cells, and a special application
>>(here in Europe most often storen on a SIM card usin SIMtoolkit API)
>>send these data to the operator, which triangulates the phone's location
>>using BTS database. If you need on-the-fly localisation of the
>>respective phone, the provider sends the coordinates back via a GPRS
>>data transfer in form of NMEA datagrams, which you can route into your
>>mapping software.
>>In densely covered areas this method is accurate down to meters, in
>>rural areas down to tens of meters. Generally, if you "see" 3 cells, you
>>are pinpointed, with 2 you get 2 points at which you can be, with a
>>single cell available you get a circular arc (dependin on the coverage
>>of the respective aerial of the cell).
>>In real life, because nondirectional aerials are not used anymore, you
>>get overlapping arcs, and the providers software "guesses" your exact
>>location in the area using statistical calculations. Voila, you won't
>>hide from me :-)
>>
>>I can only add that this method was first used here in Czech republic,
>>five years from now, and many spedition companies use it in thousands of
>>trucks. You only need SIMtoolkit compatible phone in the car, a
>>Localizer-enabled SIM card, and a computer with GPRS modem in your
>>dispatch centre. The software is provided by your cellular provider at
>>no charge, you only pay a reasonable monthly fee and data transferred
>>(which isn't much, as one NMEA datagram is <128bytes and you only need
>>to update your position if you move by say 100 meters). Much cheaper
>>than GPS receivers + software.
>>Mark
>
>
> It isn't that way here in the US. I currently have a Sprint PCS cell
> phone through my job. That phone can NOT be located any closer than
> one of the three segments that a cell covers. Each cell base station
> has three directional antennas and the existing phones can only be
> located to within one of the three segments.
>
> You method might work well in a "free-space" environment but it won't
> work in cities. Most of the cell phones here in the states operate at
> around 2 GHz. At those frequencies the signal acts like light and
> bounces off almost everything. So you have multi-path distortion
> which will cause your delay times to bounce all over the chart.
>
> My boss has informed us that we are going to get new cell phones that
> are GPS enabled. Hence my question about blue tooth and GPS. Our
> current phones are not GPS enabled phones.
>
> Jack

I works satisfactorily well even in the 1800MHz range. The aerials in
this range are only used as micro-cells, providing coverage for the
width of one street to a distance of several blocks, or for a single
boulding. The accuracy is more than enough for the purpose.
Mark

--
The last easy day was yesterday.
!