Can you charm the person who trains you? Even a spellcaste..

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

I posted this question in rec.games.frp.dnd because I didn't know
about this group. My apologies to those who read it twice.

In the first and second editions of AD&D, charm spells harm the ability
of a spellcaster to cast spells. I forget the exact wording. But I
suspect the main idea was that you couldn't charm a spellcaster into
casting spells for you for free. Something like 25% of the time,
due to the mental confusion of being under a charm and due to the
mental demands of casting spells, the charmed caster would
unwittingly choose a spell that would have nearly the opposite of the
desired effect.

Let's say a warrior character, using a philter of love or other
charm-like magic, convinces a higher level fighter to train him
or her for free. No problem in the rules as written.

But if a mage/wizard/magic-user casts a charm person (or uses
a philter of love) to help persuade a higher level wizard to train him
or her... how should it go?

Training up a level doesn't explicitly require the casting of spells,
but you might expect the teacher to cast a few as examples.

So should it fail outright, or have risks, or (eek) cause the
trainee to learn bad spellcasting habits such that 25% of the time
he or she imitates the WRONG way to cast a spell of that level?

NarniaFan
10 answers Last reply
More about charm person trains spellcaste
  1. Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

    Narnia Fan wrote:

    > In the first and second editions of AD&D, charm spells harm the ability
    > of a spellcaster to cast spells. I forget the exact wording. But I
    > suspect the main idea was that you couldn't charm a spellcaster into
    > casting spells for you for free. Something like 25% of the time,
    > due to the mental confusion of being under a charm and due to the
    > mental demands of casting spells, the charmed caster would
    > unwittingly choose a spell that would have nearly the opposite of the
    > desired effect.

    I can't find anything like this in AD&D2 nor in D&D3, I don't have AD&D1.


    > But if a mage/wizard/magic-user casts a charm person (or uses
    > a philter of love) to help persuade a higher level wizard to train him
    > or her... how should it go?

    I don't see any problems with this, but the higher level magic user may still
    think the spell in question is to dangerous to be taught to the charmer and
    deny to teach it.


    //Aho
  2. Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd,rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    In article <9833fdf.0409181632.3d4d7784@posting.google.com>,
    narniafan@earthlink.net wrote:

    >So should it fail outright, or have risks, or (eek) cause the
    >trainee to learn bad spellcasting habits such that 25% of the time
    >he or she imitates the WRONG way to cast a spell of that level?

    It may be a Moot Point™, depending on your campaign and which edition
    you are playing. I'd have to look it up, but I think that percentage
    only applied to casting spells or making magic items, but since the
    frequency of the save is based on the target's Intelligence, he
    probably gets a daily save (and mages have very good saves vs spells).

    I do not recall if they kept that rule in the 2nd edition, but the
    combination of a daily save and good saving throw makes it unlikely
    the target would be charmed long enough to train you.

    In 3E, the spell has such a short duration that its not very usefull now.

    Of course, this assumes you use the training rules in the first place...

    --
    ======================================================================
    ISLAM: Winning the hearts and minds of the world, one bomb at a time.
  3. Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd,rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    In article <2r4om6F152s7iU1@uni-berlin.de>, user@example.net wrote:

    >> In the first and second editions of AD&D, charm spells harm the ability
    >> of a spellcaster to cast spells. I forget the exact wording. But I
    >> suspect the main idea was that you couldn't charm a spellcaster into
    >> casting spells for you for free. Something like 25% of the time,
    >> due to the mental confusion of being under a charm and due to the
    >> mental demands of casting spells, the charmed caster would
    >> unwittingly choose a spell that would have nearly the opposite of the
    >> desired effect.
    >
    >I can't find anything like this in AD&D2 nor in D&D3, I don't have AD&D1.

    It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in the hirelings
    chapter.

    >> But if a mage/wizard/magic-user casts a charm person (or uses
    >> a philter of love) to help persuade a higher level wizard to train him
    >> or her... how should it go?
    >
    >I don't see any problems with this, but the higher level magic user may still
    >think the spell in question is to dangerous to be taught to the charmer and
    >deny to teach it.

    Heh heh heh.

    --
    ======================================================================
    ISLAM: Winning the hearts and minds of the world, one bomb at a time.
  4. Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd,rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Ubiquitous wrote:

    >>I can't find anything like this in AD&D2 nor in D&D3, I don't have AD&D1.
    >
    >
    > It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in the hirelings
    > chapter.

    With a hastly check in my DMG, both NPC and Magic chapter, I couldn't find
    this mentioned... if someone does, please tell me, which version of DMG and
    what page.


    //Aho
  5. Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd,rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Ubiquitous wrote:

    > I do not recall if they kept that rule in the 2nd edition, but the
    > combination of a daily save and good saving throw makes it unlikely
    > the target would be charmed long enough to train you.

    Yes, the higher int, the more ofthen you get a saving throw

    15-16: Once a week
    17: Once every 3 days
    18: Once every 2 days
    19+: Once every day

    and of course the higher level the better savingthrows, and the worse revenge
    from the charmed person when the charm spell has been dispelled.


    //Aho
  6. Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd,rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    In rec.games.frp.dnd J.O. Aho <user@example.net> wrote:
    : Ubiquitous wrote:

    :> It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in the hirelings
    :> chapter.
    :
    : With a hastly check in my DMG, both NPC and Magic chapter, I couldn't find
    : this mentioned... if someone does, please tell me, which version of DMG and
    : what page.

    I don't have access to my books right now, but was it in the index under
    "caster, charmed" or "casting spells while charmed" in the table of
    contents?
  7. Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd,rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    Ubiquitous wrote:
    > In rec.games.frp.dnd J.O. Aho <user@example.net> wrote:
    > : Ubiquitous wrote:
    >
    > :> It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in the hirelings
    > :> chapter.
    > :
    > : With a hastly check in my DMG, both NPC and Magic chapter, I couldn't find
    > : this mentioned... if someone does, please tell me, which version of DMG and
    > : what page.
    >
    > I don't have access to my books right now, but was it in the index under
    > "caster, charmed" or "casting spells while charmed" in the table of
    > contents?
    >

    Closest I can find is "Charmed creatures in combat".


    //Aho
  8. Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd,rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> wrote:
    > Ubiquitous wrote:
    >> user@example.net wrote:
    >>> Narnia Fan wrote:
    >
    >>>> In the first and second editions of AD&D, charm spells
    >>>> harm the ability of a spellcaster to cast spells. I
    >>>> forget the exact wording. But I suspect the main idea
    >>>> was that you couldn't charm a spellcaster into
    >>>> casting spells for you for free. Something like 25% of
    >>>> the time, due to the mental confusion of being under a
    >>>> charm and due to the mental demands of casting spells,
    >>>> the charmed caster would unwittingly choose a spell that
    >>>> would have nearly the opposite of the desired effect.
    >
    >>> I can't find anything like this in AD&D2 nor in D&D3,
    >>> I don't have AD&D1.
    >
    >> It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in
    >> the hirelings chapter.
    >
    > With a hastly check in my DMG, both NPC and Magic chapter, I couldn't find
    > this mentioned... if someone does, please tell me, which version of DMG and
    > what page.

    From the 1E (AD&D1) DMG index (p. 231):

    Charming and Control
    Charmed Spell Caster............................104, 118

    DMG1 p. 104, spellcasting for hire:

    "To forestall the charming of spellcasters in order to get them to
    perform services of this nature, note that such characters will always
    be 25% likely to cast a spell as close as possible to the opposite of
    that he or she is instructed to cast. This is due to the befuddled
    state of mind and the psychic duress of the charm spell operating on
    the individual's mind."

    DMG1 p. 118:

    Fabrication of Magic Items By Charmed or Enslaved Magic-Users

    "It is absolutely necessary that you take note that any sort of
    charmed, magically persuaded, or otherwise enslaved magic-user will be
    totally unable to function in such a manner as to allow the
    fabrication of any sort of magic item - scroll, potion, or otherwise.
    The discipline and concentration demanded by such activity absolutely
    precludes individuals of this sort from manufacturing magic items."


    From the 2E (AD&D2) DMG:

    Chapter 9: Combat
    Special Attacks
    Attacking With Charmed Creatures

    "Similarly, a wizard's master must know which spells his charmed
    spellcaster possesses, and which he has memorized. This is most
    commonly learned simply by asking. However, due to the charmed
    fellow's befuddled state, there is a 25 percent chance that he will
    unwittingly cast a spell harmful to himself and his master. Relying on
    charmed spellcasters can be a very risky business."

    I can't find in the 2E PH or DMG any prohibition on using charmed
    spellcasters to create magic items, but the 25% "harmful spell" chance
    would apply each time a spell was cast during the item creation
    process.


    Arivne
  9. Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd,rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> wrote in message news:<2r8k8fF16j3l6U1@uni-berlin.de>...
    > Ubiquitous wrote:
    > > In rec.games.frp.dnd J.O. Aho <user@example.net> wrote:
    > > : Ubiquitous wrote:
    >
    > > :> It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in the hirelings
    > > :> chapter.
    > > :
    > > : With a hastly check in my DMG, both NPC and Magic chapter, I couldn't find
    > > : this mentioned... if someone does, please tell me, which version of DMG and
    > > : what page.
    > >
    > > I don't have access to my books right now, but was it in the index under
    > > "caster, charmed" or "casting spells while charmed" in the table of
    > > contents?
    > >
    >
    > Closest I can find is "Charmed creatures in combat".
    >
    >
    > //Aho

    AD&D 2nd Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, page 64, 1st column, 2nd paragraph.

    "However, due to the charmed person's befuddled state, there is a 25 percent
    chance that he will unwittingly cast a spell harmful to himself and his master --
    relying on charmed spellcasters can be a very risky business."

    1st edition AD&D had a similar rule.

    NarniaFan

    P.S. Thanks everybody. Also, I don't know how my subject line got repeated.
  10. Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd,rec.games.frp.dnd (More info?)

    In article <2r872nF15lrvcU1@uni-berlin.de>, user@example.net wrote:
    >Ubiquitous wrote:

    >Yes, the higher int, the more ofthen you get a saving throw
    >
    >15-16: Once a week
    >17: Once every 3 days
    >18: Once every 2 days
    >19+: Once every day
    >
    >and of course the higher level the better savingthrows, and the worse revenge
    >from the charmed person when the charm spell has been dispelled.

    /* Evil DFM cackle */

    --
    ======================================================================
    ISLAM: Winning the hearts and minds of the world, one bomb at a time.
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