Can you charm the person who trains you? Even a spellcaste..

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I posted this question in rec.games.frp.dnd because I didn't know
about this group. My apologies to those who read it twice.

In the first and second editions of AD&D, charm spells harm the ability
of a spellcaster to cast spells. I forget the exact wording. But I
suspect the main idea was that you couldn't charm a spellcaster into
casting spells for you for free. Something like 25% of the time,
due to the mental confusion of being under a charm and due to the
mental demands of casting spells, the charmed caster would
unwittingly choose a spell that would have nearly the opposite of the
desired effect.

Let's say a warrior character, using a philter of love or other
charm-like magic, convinces a higher level fighter to train him
or her for free. No problem in the rules as written.

But if a mage/wizard/magic-user casts a charm person (or uses
a philter of love) to help persuade a higher level wizard to train him
or her... how should it go?

Training up a level doesn't explicitly require the casting of spells,
but you might expect the teacher to cast a few as examples.

So should it fail outright, or have risks, or (eek) cause the
trainee to learn bad spellcasting habits such that 25% of the time
he or she imitates the WRONG way to cast a spell of that level?

NarniaFan

 

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Narnia Fan wrote:

> In the first and second editions of AD&D, charm spells harm the ability
> of a spellcaster to cast spells. I forget the exact wording. But I
> suspect the main idea was that you couldn't charm a spellcaster into
> casting spells for you for free. Something like 25% of the time,
> due to the mental confusion of being under a charm and due to the
> mental demands of casting spells, the charmed caster would
> unwittingly choose a spell that would have nearly the opposite of the
> desired effect.

I can't find anything like this in AD&D2 nor in D&D3, I don't have AD&D1.


> But if a mage/wizard/magic-user casts a charm person (or uses
> a philter of love) to help persuade a higher level wizard to train him
> or her... how should it go?

I don't see any problems with this, but the higher level magic user may still
think the spell in question is to dangerous to be taught to the charmer and
deny to teach it.


//Aho

 

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In article <9833fdf.0409181632.3d4d7784@posting.google.com>,
narniafan@earthlink.net wrote:

>So should it fail outright, or have risks, or (eek) cause the
>trainee to learn bad spellcasting habits such that 25% of the time
>he or she imitates the WRONG way to cast a spell of that level?

It may be a Moot Point™, depending on your campaign and which edition
you are playing. I'd have to look it up, but I think that percentage
only applied to casting spells or making magic items, but since the
frequency of the save is based on the target's Intelligence, he
probably gets a daily save (and mages have very good saves vs spells).

I do not recall if they kept that rule in the 2nd edition, but the
combination of a daily save and good saving throw makes it unlikely
the target would be charmed long enough to train you.

In 3E, the spell has such a short duration that its not very usefull now.

Of course, this assumes you use the training rules in the first place...

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In article <2r4om6F152s7iU1@uni-berlin.de>, user@example.net wrote:

>> In the first and second editions of AD&D, charm spells harm the ability
>> of a spellcaster to cast spells. I forget the exact wording. But I
>> suspect the main idea was that you couldn't charm a spellcaster into
>> casting spells for you for free. Something like 25% of the time,
>> due to the mental confusion of being under a charm and due to the
>> mental demands of casting spells, the charmed caster would
>> unwittingly choose a spell that would have nearly the opposite of the
>> desired effect.
>
>I can't find anything like this in AD&D2 nor in D&D3, I don't have AD&D1.

It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in the hirelings
chapter.

>> But if a mage/wizard/magic-user casts a charm person (or uses
>> a philter of love) to help persuade a higher level wizard to train him
>> or her... how should it go?
>
>I don't see any problems with this, but the higher level magic user may still
>think the spell in question is to dangerous to be taught to the charmer and
>deny to teach it.

Heh heh heh.

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Ubiquitous wrote:

>>I can't find anything like this in AD&D2 nor in D&D3, I don't have AD&D1.
>
>
> It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in the hirelings
> chapter.

With a hastly check in my DMG, both NPC and Magic chapter, I couldn't find
this mentioned... if someone does, please tell me, which version of DMG and
what page.


//Aho

 

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Ubiquitous wrote:

> I do not recall if they kept that rule in the 2nd edition, but the
> combination of a daily save and good saving throw makes it unlikely
> the target would be charmed long enough to train you.

Yes, the higher int, the more ofthen you get a saving throw

15-16: Once a week
17: Once every 3 days
18: Once every 2 days
19+: Once every day

and of course the higher level the better savingthrows, and the worse revenge
from the charmed person when the charm spell has been dispelled.


//Aho

 

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In rec.games.frp.dnd J.O. Aho <user@example.net> wrote:
: Ubiquitous wrote:

:> It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in the hirelings
:> chapter.
:
: With a hastly check in my DMG, both NPC and Magic chapter, I couldn't find
: this mentioned... if someone does, please tell me, which version of DMG and
: what page.

I don't have access to my books right now, but was it in the index under
"caster, charmed" or "casting spells while charmed" in the table of
contents?

 

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Ubiquitous wrote:
> In rec.games.frp.dnd J.O. Aho <user@example.net> wrote:
> : Ubiquitous wrote:
>
> :> It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in the hirelings
> :> chapter.
> :
> : With a hastly check in my DMG, both NPC and Magic chapter, I couldn't find
> : this mentioned... if someone does, please tell me, which version of DMG and
> : what page.
>
> I don't have access to my books right now, but was it in the index under
> "caster, charmed" or "casting spells while charmed" in the table of
> contents?
>

Closest I can find is "Charmed creatures in combat".


//Aho

 

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"J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> wrote:
> Ubiquitous wrote:
>> user@example.net wrote:
>>> Narnia Fan wrote:
>
>>>> In the first and second editions of AD&D, charm spells
>>>> harm the ability of a spellcaster to cast spells. I
>>>> forget the exact wording. But I suspect the main idea
>>>> was that you couldn't charm a spellcaster into
>>>> casting spells for you for free. Something like 25% of
>>>> the time, due to the mental confusion of being under a
>>>> charm and due to the mental demands of casting spells,
>>>> the charmed caster would unwittingly choose a spell that
>>>> would have nearly the opposite of the desired effect.
>
>>> I can't find anything like this in AD&D2 nor in D&D3,
>>> I don't have AD&D1.
>
>> It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in
>> the hirelings chapter.
>
> With a hastly check in my DMG, both NPC and Magic chapter, I couldn't find
> this mentioned... if someone does, please tell me, which version of DMG and
> what page.

From the 1E (AD&D1) DMG index (p. 231):

Charming and Control
Charmed Spell Caster............................104, 118

DMG1 p. 104, spellcasting for hire:

"To forestall the charming of spellcasters in order to get them to
perform services of this nature, note that such characters will always
be 25% likely to cast a spell as close as possible to the opposite of
that he or she is instructed to cast. This is due to the befuddled
state of mind and the psychic duress of the charm spell operating on
the individual's mind."

DMG1 p. 118:

Fabrication of Magic Items By Charmed or Enslaved Magic-Users

"It is absolutely necessary that you take note that any sort of
charmed, magically persuaded, or otherwise enslaved magic-user will be
totally unable to function in such a manner as to allow the
fabrication of any sort of magic item - scroll, potion, or otherwise.
The discipline and concentration demanded by such activity absolutely
precludes individuals of this sort from manufacturing magic items."


From the 2E (AD&D2) DMG:

Chapter 9: Combat
Special Attacks
Attacking With Charmed Creatures

"Similarly, a wizard's master must know which spells his charmed
spellcaster possesses, and which he has memorized. This is most
commonly learned simply by asking. However, due to the charmed
fellow's befuddled state, there is a 25 percent chance that he will
unwittingly cast a spell harmful to himself and his master. Relying on
charmed spellcasters can be a very risky business."

I can't find in the 2E PH or DMG any prohibition on using charmed
spellcasters to create magic items, but the 25% "harmful spell" chance
would apply each time a spell was cast during the item creation
process.


Arivne

 

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"J.O. Aho" <user@example.net> wrote in message news:<2r8k8fF16j3l6U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> Ubiquitous wrote:
> > In rec.games.frp.dnd J.O. Aho <user@example.net> wrote:
> > : Ubiquitous wrote:
>
> > :> It's in the DMG, in a pargraph by itself. I think it's in the hirelings
> > :> chapter.
> > :
> > : With a hastly check in my DMG, both NPC and Magic chapter, I couldn't find
> > : this mentioned... if someone does, please tell me, which version of DMG and
> > : what page.
> >
> > I don't have access to my books right now, but was it in the index under
> > "caster, charmed" or "casting spells while charmed" in the table of
> > contents?
> >
>
> Closest I can find is "Charmed creatures in combat".
>
>
> //Aho

AD&D 2nd Edition Dungeon Master's Guide, page 64, 1st column, 2nd paragraph.

"However, due to the charmed person's befuddled state, there is a 25 percent
chance that he will unwittingly cast a spell harmful to himself and his master --
relying on charmed spellcasters can be a very risky business."

1st edition AD&D had a similar rule.

NarniaFan

P.S. Thanks everybody. Also, I don't know how my subject line got repeated.

 

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In article <2r872nF15lrvcU1@uni-berlin.de>, user@example.net wrote:
>Ubiquitous wrote:

>Yes, the higher int, the more ofthen you get a saving throw
>
>15-16: Once a week
>17: Once every 3 days
>18: Once every 2 days
>19+: Once every day
>
>and of course the higher level the better savingthrows, and the worse revenge
>from the charmed person when the charm spell has been dispelled.

/* Evil DFM cackle */

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ISLAM: Winning the hearts and minds of the world, one bomb at a time.