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I want to set something straight

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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 29, 2001 12:44:22 AM

Alright I have been reading the messageboard for awhile and I see lots of people who like to lead people to buying intel systems as AMD is supposed to have heat problems and so on. Although I ask my self the question all of these people who are flaming AMD, have they ever built a AMD system? If you did and had troubles your a probably stupid and don't know how to put a system together then or you bought cheap parts.

I have been building AMD systems recently as I switched from intel and all these problems I hear on the messageboard have been un true.

You like to hear people saying my thunderbird melted cause I didn't put a heat sink on. Well you shouldn't own a computer if you are that stupid to start a processor up without a hsf. Personnaly I use a alpha hsf on all the systems I build and it keeps them at around 37 degrees with artic silver thermal paste.

The next issue with compatablity issues. For some reason I have only seen one sign of this. When my friend tryed to put together a AMD system and he bought some cheap motherboard from MSI. I came over couldn't figure out what the problem was, so I went back to my house and grabed a ASUS a7v I had lying around put it in, and everything worked perfectly.

I think though if you are looking to build a system Intel Or AMD don't buy cheap stuff it will always cause you problems in the end. Stick with the top end motherboard manufactures such as ASUS and ABIT it will give you a lot less problems.

More about : set straight

a b à CPUs
January 29, 2001 4:51:22 AM

You, my friend, are an idiot. I have built many systems of all kinds, I know what kind of problems VIA chipsets, on which most Athlon motherboards are based, can indeed be problematic. There are many cards that have conflicts with them, although this is becomming less common it still happens. It will take the average new system builder 2 to 3 weeks to fix all the bugs in a system with such incompatabilities, and even an expert like me several hours. Yes, I know what I'm doing. I have built over a thousand systems, and it was always my system that had the worst problems because of my mistake of choosing the BEST parts available at the time. The more cards you use, the more likely you are to have conflicts. These are mostly self-fixing on an Intel, but manually fixed on an AMD/VIA. Just downloading all the patches can take over an hour. I hear the new ALI does much better. BTW MSI is a major manufacturer and for the most part respected in the industry.

Suicide is painless...........
January 29, 2001 5:27:16 AM

Well lets see, I had a Classic Athlon 600. Tried boards from both Asus and MSI to replace the board in my IBM(only got it from best buy because my laptop had to be replaced and they would only give me store credit) which worked perfectly fine but the preformance sucked compared to the MSI and Asus boards. Win98SE worked just fine with a graphics card. However, add a sblive(on its on IRQ), a NIC(Also on own IRQ), and a game(any one will do). What we get is a hard core lock with sound repeating. I worked on this problem for over 3 months. I tried two differant video cards, the memory from the IBM(Micron PC100 cas2), PC133 cas2 also from micron and the 600 Athlon. I followed every setup instruction, only using the vid card to install windows, then the AMD inf update. Then the rest of the drivers and cards. I tried two MSI 6167 boards and one Asus slot A board all 751 north bridge boards. Same problem on all the boards except the IBM board which was made by Enigma(makes boards for gateway, IBM, and other OEMs). Well needless to say AMD has left a bad taste in my mouth in the ways of hardware compatability. Oh, Win2k wouldnt even run stable enough on any of those AMD systems either. Have I had any of these problems with Intel based motherboards and chips, no. Have I had problems with multiple AMD boards yes. Now do I flame AMD no, do I openly scream out the wonders of Intel, no. However I have built and used both personally and AMD some of these problems that I and others have mentioned. So I would like answer your question, not everyone that has problems with AMD is stupid or uses cheap parts. It just might be that in this wonderful thing called reality AMD products have had and may still continue to have compatability flaws. Sorry to piss on your little AMD parade.
Related resources
January 29, 2001 1:20:27 PM

I don't mean to flame AMD, I really like their processors, they're really good for the money. Just their chipset and compatiability really concerns me. My friend has a K6-400 on an asus board. When he got an ATI raedon DDR, the card won't work properly in his system. He tried 2 days to fix it and no luck, so he had to return such a nice card :'(  (christmas present)

I'm not saying that Intel based systems don't have any compatability problems, but I think they have a lot less problems when compared to similar AMD systems.

Sparks
January 29, 2001 1:49:12 PM

Good Goddess you're dumber than a wet adobe brick.

It is a very rare event to see anyone flame an AMD product here. People will often suggest an Intel product to people NEW to putting together a system. Why? Because MANY people have problems putting together an AMD system, no matter how experienced they are.

And just why is that? It's VIA's fault. They make crappy chipsets that cause the oddest of errors with other hardware. And if you contact VIA tech support for help, they'll flat out tell you that the problem isn't THEIR chipset, it's YOUR hardware for not being up to their standards. Granted, this hardware can be up to everyone else's standards and have been produced by the top-of-the-line hardware companies. And it'll work just fine in an Intel chipset based motherboard.

VIA is bringing AMD down badly. The AMD chips are good. But the VIA motherboards are a nightmare.

So for people who have never put a system together before, it's a very good idea for them to use an Intel chip in an Intel chipset motherboard. It has nothing to do with performance or price. It has nothing to do with which CPU is better. It's just simply how much easier it is to put together the system and get all of the hardware working properly.

And if YOU haven't ever run into problems like THAT putting together an AMD system, then obviously YOU don't have much experience putting AMD systems together.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
January 29, 2001 5:39:50 PM

I'm with you man, I put systems together all the time and I recommend AMD to people just because of the Cost/Performance advantage that AMD holds.

My personal system is listed below and I haven't had any problems that have been described on this board, no IRQ sharing issues, nothing.

So here's the process I went through:

Installed WinME (Windows autorecognized my network card so I had Internet immediately)
Downloaded and installed the latest Via 4-in-1 drivers
Downloaded and installed the latest Promise Raid drivers
Installed Video drivers from the CD
Downloaded and installed the SB LiveWare 3.0 drivers.

That's it, no "special" process. I even used a stock hsf.

To date the only problem I have had was with one particular game, Rogue Spear, would lock up after a few minutes of playing. I knew this wasn't a platform problem as I could play Ureal Tournament for hours with no issues. I visited the tech support web site which stated to download all the latest drivers. I thought that I had the latest drivers and they were full of [-peep-]. Upon looking closely there were new reference drivers from nVidia but no new drivers from my card manufacturer. I downloaded the reference drivers and installed them after which I have not had one lock up problem with my computer.

So take it for what it's worth but I don't even know if I could troubleshoot an incompatible card or an IRQ conflict as I have never had either problem with any AMD or Intel system I have ever built.



T-Bird 800Mhz
2X IBM 75GXP 30GB in RAID0 config
Geforce2 32MB
SB Live
January 29, 2001 6:58:30 PM

Well said Pheonix,

"And if YOU haven't ever run into problems like THAT putting together an AMD system, then obviously YOU don't have much experience putting AMD systems together."

I have ordered prebuilt AMD systems that died withen 2 minutes of powering up, with stock fan installed. thermal issue? Can't blame me for not building it correctly.

I have built systems that burnt up so fast that by the time I heard beeps it was too late. I used a "antec" HSF. I have seen many reports since then about "Antec" fan failures. cant blame that on builders. Antec makes crappy PSU too BTW.

Try and read some posts, notice all the AMD problems with thermal related issues? I guess they are all liars and sucky computer builders huh?

The rest are incompatability issues, I guess they are liars too?

And I will not go into the power supply issue...

Everything is built to Intel standard NOT AMD.

A majority of AMD problems are with the VIA shitset, err chipset. VIA is a trainwreck in progress =)
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 2:45:41 AM

I agree with you fugger on one thing partially. Somethings are built on the intel standard not Amd standard.

That would include some of the more popular benchmarks.
Read the latest article about how an x Intel benchmark developer had to say about how intel likes their benchmarks coded @ theregister.co.uk. It is an eye opening article for those of us naieve enough not to have guessed it already.

AMD products are reliable, stable, high performance pieces of equipment on par if not better than their intel equivelent @ a better price.

My suggestion to you fugger next time you buy cheap crappy pre-assembled systems, buy from a reputable system builder that uses quality parts. Please don't post to tell us that the systems were from reputable box makers cause dude your arguement just does'nt hold water.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 3:11:54 AM

To suggest that the remarkable number of posts on this site asking for help with a sick VIA/AMD puter is a fluke (after fluke, after fluke) is just plain dumb.

1. Intel systems outnumber AMD systems.
2. You don't see many Pentium system problems here.

Are you suggesting that builders of AMD chip based systems are inordinately HS/fan challenged ? Do they suffer from sick hardware driver syndrome ? Are they that bad at choosing hardware partners ?

PLEASE

It is apparently very difficult to screw up a heatsink installation on a flip chip mount (must be a flaw in the design).

AMD can't get Inside Intel, so they will never be part of the advanced knowledge and planning of chipset design. The best way for AMD to shake this problem is to sink capital into chipset development. Otherwise, they will always count on the vagaries of an independent company for stability and compatibility (not to mention long term survival strategy and profits).
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 3:22:51 AM

Why don't you see too many Intel systems in here? Because intel owners in here don't usually post as often. They simply have no need to ask as many questions and no reason to know as many answers.
If AMD wants to raise sales, all they have to do is start an advertising campaign. I think the only reason they don't is because they are already operating their plants near capacity. Either that or their marketing department is stupid.

Suicide is painless...........
January 30, 2001 3:27:29 AM

Slvr phoenix, please don't say goddess, it shows that you have to much faith that women are all powerful and that us men are somewhat lesser. Any man who's ever seen a woman drive knows this is simply not true.
As far as fugger's coments- always biased based on no factual information as usual, I'd just ignore them. If he has a problem with amd systems he's probobly doing it wrong. I just had a hell of a time with a p3 ghz I was working on today, though much like AMD I seriously doubt it was the chips fault. It was a Dell demention who's geforce 2 GTS went bad. Amd chips don't have problems. Fugger's do.

ILLEGALISE BULLETS
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 4:01:28 AM

My wife and I have built many computers all using AMD cpu's. We have used a variety of Asus MB's and have NEVER had a compatibility problem with any of them.
Last weekend I built a AMD 1.2ghz on a Asus K7V mb w/512 ram, Plexwriter 8/20 SCSI, Asus 50x cdrom, Creative 12x DVD, 1 IBM 9 gig HD, 1 IBM 30 gig HD, 1 Maxtor 15 gig hd, Asus 3400TNT video card and a 100 Meg ZIP drive. My wife built an AMD 1 ghz on a Asus K7V mb w/512k ram and both are running flawlessly. I also have an Athlon 750 oc'd to 900 that has been running flawlessly for over a year without a shut down running Seti 24/7. Also one AMD K6-2 550 on a Asus P5A mb running Linux and a AMD K6-3 450 on a P5A mb running Linux. All our computers are networked with a router and switch with a print server.
You say that you have built thousands of systems and when you build for yourself you have trouble. Sorry, I wouldn't let you build a system for me.
Whether one uses Intel or AMD is not the point. Both do their job well. I just get tired of the name calling and the my chip is better than yours.
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 4:19:41 AM

Look, the only reason most AMD systems I built on VIA chipsets worked, yet Mine did not (without a lot of hassle to fix all the bugs) is that I use better parts and more cards in mine. The VIA AGP bus does not crash unless you push it. The configuration issues do not arise unless you use several cards. Since my system is completely filled and I always use top-notch video cards in my system, but my customers systems are built with very few cards and older graphics, the simpler sytems obviously were less likely to have problems. The BEST AMD systems I have built have all been on Intel chipsets-K6/2's using Intel chipset motherboards, using the 2x=6x multiplier trick. While they may be outdated, they just work more reliably!

Suicide is painless...........
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 4:24:20 AM

Guns don't kill jg38141, bullets do! LOL


Suicide is painless...........
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 5:17:45 AM

As a first time system builder, and long time intel owner, I read up on the amd system i wanted to build, I bought the parts i wanted, I assembled it and it was 80percent stable uppon first boot, then after installing the patches that amd has right on their page. (took about 3 seconds to download not an hour) the system is rock solid and stable. and i have never had a heat issue, incompatability issue, game problem or anything, i think it comes down to good planning and buying quality components, I dont think an excuse to build an intel system should be that you can use crappy parts and it still runs, personally i dont care if it is intel or amd i want quality parts in there that will work. I still built this system for about half of what it was going to cost me to build an intel system. and am building another for my friend, if a person building a system for the first time can have more luck than someone who has built a thousand systems then you should probably do a little more research and reading and upgrading your technique and less time bashing companys that make parts. if an intel system would have been the price of this one i would have bought that, i dont have a preference, i just dont make stupid decisions that waste my money. (ie not looking into what parts work and what doesnt) I dont know many people that decide in 5 minutes to buy a new computer and just run out and grab random parts, if your going to invest a large amount of cash, then plan it out. and you will have great success no matter what system you build.

anywho it just gets tiring to hear people bashing a system they dont own, or that they put together with duct tape out in the sun.

i have had plenty of issues with my intel system but if you look you can usually find a fix, and its the exact same story with amd.

sometimes i think you guys must work for intel the way you get all pissed off that someone likes a different processor. do you get that angry when you see someone with a different make car than you?

keee ripes.

just incase anyone is wondering what systems i am running now.

Amd 900mhz athlon
Globalwin FOP32-1 with arctic silver
Asus A7V bios 1005c
windows 2000 pro
Soundblaster live value
Asus V7700 Geforce 2 GTS Deluxe
Enermax 330watt ps
D-link NIC
256mb PC133 infineon Ram
I have 2 hard drives, a 10 gig and 3, from other systems.
Zip drive
DVD Rom Drive
and had dual monitors running with an old ati rage pro turbo card, but decided my desk was to cluttered with two monitors so i took the other one off.

I also have an Intel Pentium II 400
God Knows who made the mother board
no idea what heatsink
it has onboard video so it is frustrating as hell that i cant put a new agp video card in it.
196mb ram, CD-RW Drive, CD Rom Drive. Voodoo 2 card, SOundblaster live x gamer, linksys NIC, 40gig and 8 gig hd's

both systems run like a charm. and i would have to say the intel system was about twice the work to get to function properly, i cant even install a clean copy of windows 98 on it it crashes half way though the install. but windows 2k works fine and i prefer it anyways.




If you overclock an Intel Processor enough, it will turn into an AMD. True Story.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 5:42:59 AM

Amen, DAMeek. Anyone that's put together a thousand systems and can't get his own machine to work without hours of trouble is not someone I'd have much confidence in.

I am the sole network/system admin for a company that has 65 workstations. 50 of those machines are running white box Athlons using a wide assortment of add-in cards and motherboards. Since I'm the guy responsible for fixing these things when they break, I can assure you that I wouldn't run Athlons if they caused me a lot of headaches. They don't!
January 30, 2001 12:43:32 PM

I don't know as that's exactly true, Crashman (re: why intel owners don't post as much). I think you are partially correct but I also think that AMD is currently the homebuilder's choice (since it is the better Price:p erformance, which is what the homebuilder is usually looking for). The builders are the ones who have the questions and actually know about THG, or at least disproportionately so compared to your average Dell/Best Buy/Gateway/CompUSA consumer, and so therefore post more often about the components relevant to them (i.e. AMD).

Just a thought.
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 1:28:53 PM

Some of my problems with my own system was that I bought parts BEFORE anyone figured out that they had compatbility problems with VIA's AMD chipsets. So I bought hot new parts that should have worked and then found out later that they would not work. In some instances it took WEEKS for software patches to be released. The other problem stemmed from VIA's lack of quality in system configuration-I had a full load of cards, and always had to pull two or three just to get the system to load, then install the remainder one at a time until everything was configured. As a former AMD devotee, I always hated Intel for anti-competitive practices. But after years of going through the motions with VIA/AMD, I got tired of fixing things all the time. BTW AMD does have a more powerfull processor, I will probably build one as soon as better chipsets become widely availble.

Suicide is painless...........
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 1:38:12 PM

Crashman, can you give me a link to an article discussing all the incompatabilities the current VIA chipset have? I'm just not finding any information on it. I do, on the other hand, hear many reviewers talking about how mature, stable, and compatable KT133(a) chipsets are.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 1:39:35 PM

When ever I have computer problems I go out to the garage and light up a nice Joint. The more problems the better.

Take Care.

Take Care.
If money was no object, how could you spend it!
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 1:49:44 PM

It's possible, but then again whenever I am in a computer store everyone ask for PIII. I think most of it is brand recognition.

Suicide is painless...........
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 2:47:15 PM

It is brand thing, People know who intel are... It is slowly changing and the more it does the stronger the competition, the cheaper the parts the faster we go for our money...... why should wee complain when we are the winners.....

M

one of the first UK T-Bird users....
January 30, 2001 2:55:56 PM

Intel *definitely* has a better brand name in the general pop. which has led to mucho sales but I struggle thinking that is why it has less posters here. THG Community is definitely *not* representative of the general pop. By far, they are more technically-inclined, high-end users (power gamers, video editors, CAD/CAM, etc.) and much more likely to DIY (Beelzebub will be ice skating to the office before people here bring their computers to CompUSA to get more RAM or a vid card installed). Nor do I believe that Dell is the primary purchase place for this community and they are the largest seller of pentium systems I would imagine. I think these factors skew this community to AMD. imho, of course
January 30, 2001 3:27:19 PM

Its not an issue when the problem is not posted here daily.
If someone can go one day without bringing then its not an issue.

Kinda like the MTH problem of last year. its not mentioned here daily. its not an issue anymore.

"AMD Puppies" are blind when it comes to any negative comments very quickly dismissed and non factual and then you try to discredit the poster.

Give me a break, I know most of you can read. Take a fricken minute and look at a majority of the posts on THG. But I guess they are all liars in "AMD puppies" eyes, and those are just people who cannot build systems like the pro that you are.


Non-factual is AMD CPU keychains, that are piling up and just about ever computer repair shop. due to this "non-existant" thermal problem.

AMD geeks quit trying to be so one sided on this issue. I know that it upsets you in the replies trying to discredit me.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 3:36:01 PM

Agreed, i have moved from Intel to AMD, and haven't regreted it. No patches needed, and runs very fast, with a realistic price tag. Yes they get hot when you hit the 1GHZ range, but the CPU wil handle 90C, so it doesn't really matter.And if it bothers people, they can go install another fan or heatsink.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 3:42:58 PM

i don't think a can buy this line of reasoning (not that you started it... just the closest button to click on). i'm not sure how long this site's been around... several years at least... long before the major flux of amd's recent success in the last year or so. all the intel owners that have been reading since then are gone, leaving but a handful? and the other (new) intel owners bought from dell? also i would imagine the majority of video editors and cad/cam users on this site would be intel owners due to the fact that many of these programs support smp and have been optimised for sse for a long time. i also think it's funny that people like crashman draw from their own expeirences as well as other posts on the forum to back up their claims about instabilities and heat problems on amd/via systems, while the responses always seem to sound like "well MY system worked ok". I don't think any of us are rooting for intel per se but are sick of hearing the amd/via solution as a flawless wonder to the pc world. amd has many great advantages over intel as most of us would agree, but it is not without some drawbacks. are you guys not seeing every other headline that say "tbird 1.1ghz fried", "amd heat problem", "graphics card not working with via such and such". it seems a bit analogous to the ide/scsi debate. ide is clearly the price/performance leader, but there are still many shortcomings to the drive solution. as long as you are aware of them, know what you are getting into and can deal with it there is no problem. (or you can just pretend that the differences and problems with ide don't exist, becuase your ide drive works fine. then tell everyone how much "better" ide is.)
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 3:49:05 PM

Well in some ways i guess you are right. But it is only a problem when you first get the motherboard, after that there are no problems. I have owned Asus K7M and Asus A7V. Both were a little more difficult to setup, but once setup, ran nice and smooth. I think it is worth the little extra effort, concidering the price is so cheap. And before someone has a go at me, i am not implying that AMD is better than Intel. Indeed i would be happy with either platform. I just refuse to pay the stupid money Intel charges for their aging P6 core based CPUs. Its a lot of money for OLD technology (although it is still good). Oh by the way, remember the 810 and 820 chipsets...........what a bag of shite.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 3:55:40 PM

I agree that their marketing department seems to have questionable ability (if it even exists). Truthfully, AMD has made some very serious mistakes. They could choose to learn from Intel's example and create an optimized compiler for AMD CPU's so that all applications can get more power out of AMD. They could choose to work with chipset manufacturers/designers more closely and get some really efficient chipsets. And they could even choose to actually design their own chipsets. I haven't any idea as to why they haven't done that yet. Maybe they will eventually and they'll be produce some excellent systems. I can dream on, right?

Charles
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 4:01:53 PM

Intel Pentium III 1.13mhz.....thats a nice chip...can i have one? :o )
Intel Pentium IV......wow almost as fast as a Pentium III 1GHZ...well done Intel!!! How many stages in your next CPU.....40?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 4:29:21 PM

ya know...I am going to go ahead and come out as an Intel owner (past, present and future, now with the price cuts--P3-933) I just built two T-bird 700 systems for two friends dirt cheap, and have nothing but praise for them. However, I really get tired of all the Intel bashing (rather bitter, actually) because none of if is based in reality in that no one seems to understand WHY intel's prices are what they are. Does anyone remember what happened to their stock when they announced their revenue would be off a measly 3 PERCENT? THAT is the reason why they don't try to outprice AMD unless absolutly neccesary, they are answerable to stockholders first, geeks like us second. As far as the P4, I want one, I really do, since the software optimizations are really going to make it fly (AMD is going to have to do more pipelining if they want higher clock speeds, and I think we all know this) My main issue, however, is with Tom himself. He is the personification of everything wrong with AMD zealots. He obviously hates Intel for some reason and wants them to fail. The only remotely positive review of an Intel product was around 3 months ago, and this new one with the OEM systems is obviously skewed, again, in favor of AMD. Does he think he's doing anyone a favor with such bitterness?! Anandtech is far, far more fair and analytical in their reviews, and I would have like for Tom to put a Dell 4100 system up agains the Athlons. I think we would all have been impressed, since Dimentions have hung with T-bird systems from Falcon NW and Alienware in Video and game benchmarks. Just a thought. But, I know this may fall on def ears, but I would REALLY REALLY like to know the REAL reason why so many people in the geek community are all of a sudden on this AMD bandwagon, and bitterly hating intel, all with in a short two years. I'm pretty fair...I understand (being a business major) why Intel does what they do keep in the context of business. AMD does what they have to do to survive and grow. Great!! I have had to try to get away from my Intel-loving, AMD bashing bitterness because I have built some Athlon systems with no problems (I really won't hold stability against them, no truth) and I put some thought into it. I will, however, take one jab at the AMD zealots here. You DO realize, that Intel could have bought AMD any time they wanted, and STILL CAN, if it weren't for the Justice Department and Intel's PR department? They could have made this entire war of words moot with a really big check, but they didn't. At least give them credit for THAT...Please, I would really like to hear some honest, level-headed respones...sorry for the long post, but this is subject sensitive to me....
January 30, 2001 5:08:23 PM

jg38141, you're definately a sad one.

I can say Goddess all that I like. Why? Well, it's my religion. Not EVERYONE on this Earth follows Christianity you know. In fact not even everyone in America does. Or have you forgotten about that little thing called "freedom of religion".

And if you have a problem with me saying Goddess because in your warped perception that somehow implies the inferiority of men, then just exactly what should the opposite side of that coin mean? By your own reasoning had I said God instead, I would have implied women to be inferior. The obvious fact is that I implied neither. It is only your own demented perceptions that say a lot more about you than they do about me.

So what Religionist AND Sexist hole did you crawl out of? And when are you going back?

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
January 30, 2001 5:18:20 PM

Okay, I think there is one HUGE flaw in all of this bickering. The complaint is not if AMD nor Intel are better. The complaint is with people suggesting Intel or AMD systems to people putting together a system.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that a LOT of the people asking for advice on new systems have never put a system together before, or at least haven't done so in five or more years.

And when people put systems together, a LOT of times they'll save money on a cheap part here or there because they know they want a certain CPU, and everything else can go to pot for all they care as long as they can get the best CPU their money can buy.

Which is why when I suggest what to buy to people like this, I suggest an Intel system. They're simply easier to put together and start up without having anything go wrong. Yes, sometimes you can do that with an AMD system as well, but the odds of it working just fine are better for Intel systems.

Now, for people who are more experienced and know what they want ... well, they usually don't even need to ask for help. They already know their own minds. However when people like that do ask for suggestions, then I suggest AMD products because I know they'll have the experience to handle a problem if one comes up.

And THAT should be the answer to everyone's complaining and arguing. Neither system is ultimately any better or worse because both have their advantages and disadvantages. And what systems I suggest to people are the systems that I think would best fit their skill with handling computer problems. And that's that.

If anyone can find argument in any of these words that I have typed, then you really need to just get a life and open your eyes to the possability that BOTH AMD AND INTEL products have their benefits.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
January 30, 2001 5:22:29 PM

Well, I disagree with any disagreement. ;) 

Well spoken.
January 30, 2001 5:29:48 PM

And why is it that when an AMD fan brings up a complaint with an Intel product it is a complaint that no longer even exists in the real world?

Like the 1.13GHz P3.
Like the MTH insanity.

These things are NOT on the market. NO ONE could just go out and buy one. And if they COULD, then the problem would be with the person selling them, because they SHOULDN'T be on the market.

And yet when every Intel fan brings up a problem with AMD (or VIA, because the two are so closely related since AMD won't make their own chipsets) the problems are things that ARE on the market RIGHT NOW.

Like AGP card incompatabilities.
Like PCI card incompatabilities.
Like memory stick incompatabilities.
Like cooling system failures.
Like power supply inadiquacies.

Do you hear ANY problems like these from Intel products that are ON SALE RIGHT NOW? (At least that don't involve extreme stupidity on the part of the user: Like not using thermal paste when mounting a heat sink.)

The ONLY real complaint that AMD fans have against Intel is the oddity of the P4. Yes, it's a strange chip. Running software that hasn't been optimized it performs strangely if not just plain poorly. But running software that is optimized it performs better than any AMD chip on the market, even when that AMD chip is running their own optimized software.

So quite simply, the P4 is only a good chip to buy when you know you'll be needing it's high performance for optimized software.

Does that make Intel and better or worse than AMD? No. Does it make AMD any better or workse than Intel? Again, no. It just makes the P4 a chip that is best suited to specific software. And that leaves the Athlon a chip that is best suited for old software.

And anyone who can't admit that much is true and that the P4 can actually have it's uses to certain users, has a severe problem with being able to accept the facts... AMD or Intel fan alike.

So if we're going to debate anything, lets at least do so intelligently and with our minds at least halfway open to possabilities so that we might actually learn from each other.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
a b à CPUs
January 30, 2001 7:31:45 PM

I read a complete dissertation on the AGP timing issues and suggestions for improvements. I don't really feel like looking it up. The rest comes from experience. Micron and nVidia, if they produce, are going to improve the market greatly. Even if VIA came out with a perfect chipset I would not purchase it because I feel they are an abusive company-they have used us all as beta testers, hence revision after revision of their chipset until we can't even keep track of it anymore. Now, if they were to be bought out by a more reputable company, I would consider them once again.

Suicide is painless...........
January 31, 2001 10:53:17 AM

You know, people just amaze me. With a little research and a little planning, you can get a "good" system. A system that doesn't give you any problems, or very few. But people are stupid and they just buy whats cheap or what other people recommend without even researching it. So for those who have compatability problems out there....I laugh at you. it's your own fault, and i have no sympathy for you.

--SR
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 31, 2001 1:27:27 PM

The problem with Intel, as with all other big bloated companies, is that they sat on their asses and allowed AMD to come back at them. They charge too much for their aging P6 based CPUs. Without AMD and its Athlon CPUs, Intel would have continued t rip everyone off with slighty updated old CPUs, at premium prices. The competition is now more healthy, which means we can fast CPUs at much more realitic prices. I still feel that the Pentium 4 isn't as good as it should be. It may need software to be optimized for it, but i fear that it isn't going to make a great difference. Even with 500 extra mhz, the top P4 is at the same level as the P3 1000. Intel has alot of work to do to make it work as it should, but that 20 stage pipe is a killer. i just feel that AMD thunderbird chips have a slight edge. Hopefully AMD will not sit on its arse for too long. But i will go for whoever offers the best solution, and thats AMD. I will wait for the Intel P4 to establish itself before i consider it.
January 31, 2001 2:22:34 PM

Actually Alienware won Computer Gaming World's "Ultimate Gaming Machine" against a decked-out PIV-1.5G from Dell.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by tfbww on 01/31/01 11:28 AM.</EM></FONT></P>
January 31, 2001 2:26:38 PM

Alienware SUCKS!! all OEM's SUCK!!! Custom is the way to go now and forever!!!!
---------------------------------
INTEL coppermine T is going to match the athlon + blow the p4 out the water. WELL I LIKE AMD BUT --- VIA SUCKS ---

P4 + rdram = bad

AMD + via = bad

P3t + i815 = good and stable

Dual p3 1ghz + 440bx = DREAM MACHINE

First person to get a topic banned. ABIT BP6 Lives FOREVER!!!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 31, 2001 2:59:14 PM

I agree with 99.99% of what you say but the PSU issue is not true as the P4 has similar requirements to the Athlon and there are a few problems with intel based systems(ie post you refered to with heat compound where the bios reported the wrong CPU temp...)
BUT you are more likely to come across one of these problems with an AMD/VIA combo(even if the biggest Problem was from AMD irongate northbridge and the Geforce cards)


M

one of the first UK T-Bird users....
January 31, 2001 3:27:07 PM

rcf84, not a lot of ppl are adept or technically savy as you are.

there are families who buy system for their kids, housewifes who are just jumping into the computer realm and others who are absolutely all thumbs.

they all need systems and that's where OEMs fill the void.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 31, 2001 3:38:51 PM

yup all with a nice whoops restore disk (I have considered making my own sometimes...), we all have to remember techies are in the minority, thats why we make the money....... :-)

M


one of the first UK T-Bird users....
January 31, 2001 3:39:39 PM

And there are people who upgrade. They have a perfectly working P3 500 MHz and think that it's time to upgrade.

They find that buying a 1.2GHz T-Bird and a new motherboard will cost them less than buying a 1GHz P3 flip chip and slot converter (or the chip and a new motherboard). So they buy the Athlon and VIA motherboard with the intention of just replacing the old MoBo/CPU.

And then they run into a virtual nightmare as this brand new CPU and motherboard has problem after problem with the hardware that they've been using in their computer for years without ANY problems with their P3.

So they return the motherboard and CPU to get an Intel P3 and i815 mobo. And they install those. And everything works just fine.

Not everyone in this world buys complete systems brand new. In fact most people will carry over at least some hardware from their old and outdted systems because things like modems and soundcards really haven't changed all that much over the years. And it's easier to replace an old system piece by piece paying only for one part of the upgrade at a time than it is to replace the whole thing in one go.

And this is where Intel systems are champs and AMD systems are chumps.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
January 31, 2001 5:18:23 PM

And some of us just have more money than time.
January 31, 2001 7:25:13 PM

Yes CGW is using the 1.2GHz TBird as their best CPU! :smile:
February 1, 2001 4:18:50 AM

Hey- Whoa- calm down buddy. As far as the goddess comment- two things, first your religion is hardly large enough to call a religion, probobly more of a cult or sect than a recognised world wide ethos. Second- my comment was purely sarcastic. If you have insecurity issues about your worshiping women it's your issue, I however could care less. More than anything I was commenting on women drivers.

As far as AMD and Intel, I built/build many systems with both for individuals universities and businesses, and problems are about equal between both companies. Thermal protection is only a problem if you're a dumb ass and don't know how to put a heat sink on, otherwise, it shouldn't even be an issue. People say, but if your fan dies blah blah. By the time the fan dies the chip will be long obsolete. The bottom line if you do it right there are no problems with heat. If you do it wrong- you are the only one to blame, not the chip company.

ILLEGALISE BULLETS
February 1, 2001 4:01:54 PM

I'll have you know that not only is my religion recognized by the U.S. government, but it has existed long before Christianity has. Anyone who doesn't take it seriously obviously can't see the reality beyond their nose.

Frankly, the Christian religion is mostly re-hashed bits from numerous other religions. If other people want to follow it, that's fine with me. To each their own. But I prefer to go with the original.

As for your completely confusing statement of, "If you have insecurity issues about your worshiping women it's your issue", I don't have a clue what you're talking about. Besides the fact that I don't worship either men or women, there's also the fact that I have absolutely no insecurity issues whatsoever there.

I did however find your "purely sarcastic" post to be highly insulting to both women and anyone who isn't a Christian. (Of which there are countless such other religions such as Hindu, Buddhism, Judaism, Taoism, etc., etc., so on and so forth.) Frankly, the number of Christians in this world is very small compared to the number of people in this world. And there are approximately as many women as there are men. So I'd suggest to you that you take this into consideration before you find any one of these people actively hostile towards your sarcasm.

And as someone who believes that people should be free to express their religious, racial, sexual, etc. preferences without the prosecution, even if just sarcasm, from people like you, I see it as important to point out your obvious social inadiquacies to you constructively in the hopes that you might change them.

If you find this constructive criticism to seem as an attack upon your person, then obviously you have some issues to work out yourself.

As for your OPINION that only an idiot would need themral protection in a CPU and that fans don't die, I would like to point out for your edification that faulty products, especially cooling fans, can and do give out long before CPUs do. And that complete systems using modern equipment shipped without the CPU and/or heat sink removed first can often result in the heat sink no longer being perfectly seated, which can result in a CPU getting quite hot.

The VAST MAJORITY of people who buy systems from OEMs don't even know enough about PC repair to even check if the heat sink is still mounted correctly. That doesn't make them in any way dumb or stupid. It merely shows their inexperience in dealing with computers in such a manner.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
February 2, 2001 4:29:14 AM

Heh- did I strike a nerve. Actually the earliest religions, if you were going with the "original" as you say, focused on worshiping animals. Mainly non predators, as we know from cave paintings at Lascaux etc. but occasionally large predatory animals, like the cave bear. It's funny how you jumped to the defensive though. Maybe because I know so much about religion I feel it ok to make fun of it, for example I'm white and love white jokes. I was raised catholic and love catholic jokes. I am an Anthropology and Religious Studies double major focusing in religions of the middle east and India. I'm well aware of the beginnings of christianity and all they stole from other religions (ie. virgin birth etc. Zoaraster et al.) and the small number of Christians as compaired to other religions. I myself don't subscribe to any religion, except that I find it imposible to believe that there is no god/gods whatever. Mainly because I can't comprehend something physical as having no beginning. So as far as I see it something "super natural" had to start it all. This whole matter never being created or distroyed is just to out there. It had to be created. That's my oppinion of course. It is also my oppinion that women, while great for many things, can not (in general- always exceptions) drive. I'm sticking to that one.
As far as thermal protection, I was talking mainly about people who build their own computers. For those who buy them pre assembled from OEM's and they die, well no biggie, that's what warranties are for. I've never known a quality cooling fan to go out though.
I have no problem with people expressing their beliefs, except when they can't laugh at their beliefs and themselves. You take your self to seriously. I meant no harm by my statement, and only a little disrespect. At the same time I'm the first to laugh at my own beliefs and welcome others to join.
Oh, and AMD rocks. Intel rocks less.

ILLEGALISE BULLETS
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 2, 2001 6:43:58 AM

Bravo!
I agree entirely: AMD is not the problem, VIA is. When VIA came out with their 133 Apollo chipset a while back, I jumped on it, setting my perfectly good gigabyte board (AMD 751) aside and putting the Asus board on. It stayed that way for about 6 hours. I had so many problems that I returned the Asus board to the store & put my old Gigabyte back on.

So I would repeat the advice given by Phoenix: Intel CPU, Intel chipset. AMD CPU, AMD chipset.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 7, 2001 6:32:32 PM

Right on!! Intel isn't a bad choice for computers, they work with few problems. Of course, thats the only good thing i can say. They work with few problems. But, their overpriced has fu*$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! For a fraction of that price, i've put together many athlon based systems that has best has i can tell, outperform there intel counterparts. Every problem i've encountered building athlon systems were fixed by downloading and installing the latest drivers and in one case, downgrading my directX to the next lower verson.

FACE IT PEOPLE, AMD is moving up and Intel is making room for them.
!