[V, All] Potion of Death

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
(severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.

To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
rare occurence, but still.

I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!

--
Twilight (Tomas Dedorson)
"It's better to burn out than to fade away!"
36 answers Last reply
More about potion death
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    "Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> writes:

    > IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
    > (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
    >
    > To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
    > insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
    > rare occurence, but still.
    >
    > I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
    > minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!

    IMO potions of death and detonations should explode when you open them
    doing the same damage to you that they do to monsters when you throw
    the potions at monsters. Nether resistance should reduce !death damage.

    That still might kill a character at 650'.


    Eddie
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-06-28 08:06:17, "Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
    > (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
    >
    > To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
    > insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
    > rare occurence, but still.
    >
    > I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
    > minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!

    Sangband ensures that no potion you try will kill you straight away. Through
    fair means or foul...

    Andrew

    --
    Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
    AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    "Eddie Grove" wrote :


    > IMO potions of death and detonations should explode when you open them
    > doing the same damage to you that they do to monsters when you throw
    > the potions at monsters. Nether resistance should reduce !death
    > damage.
    >
    > That still might kill a character at 650'.
    >
    >
    > Eddie

    That sounds like good idea to me. I might overexplain here, but I'd like
    to clarify that I'm not that concerned about early deaths like my last
    one - I just mentioned the depth to show that the potion was OOD. What I
    meant was that the idea (IMO) of an insta-death with no chance of
    survival for *any* character is bad.

    --
    Twilight (Tomas Dedorson)
    "It's better to burn out than to fade away!"
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:
    > Nether resistance should reduce !death damage.

    Personally, I just had it so that potions of Death have no effect when
    drunk by a character with Hold Life...

    --
    "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They
    never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our
    people, and neither do we." - George W. Bush [August 5th, 2004]
    http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~aa343/index.html
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Twilight wrote:
    > IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
    > (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.

    How about drain all stats, reduce HP to half, KO and poisoned all at
    once? That would still mean you can be dead in next turn if you have bad
    company.

    Potion of detonations should just be poisonous and maybe cause you womit
    like potion of salt water, not cause explosion.

    Timo Pietilä
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Timo Pietilä wrote:
    > Twilight wrote:
    >
    >> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
    >> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
    >
    >
    > How about drain all stats, reduce HP to half, KO and poisoned all at
    > once? That would still mean you can be dead in next turn if you have bad
    > company.
    >
    > Potion of detonations should just be poisonous and maybe cause you womit
    > like potion of salt water, not cause explosion.

    Keep it as death.

    If anyone deep enough to actually find one can't afford a few ID
    scrolls, they shouldn't be down there to begin with.
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-06-28 08:06:17, "Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> wrote:

    > IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
    > (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.

    I'd rather get death. saves me a couple of suicide-now keystrokes.
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-06-28 18:15:21, Polarhound <Polarhound@comcast.net> wrote:

    > >> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different=20
    > >> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
    >
    > Keep it as death.
    >
    > If anyone deep enough to actually find one can't afford a few ID=20
    > scrolls, they shouldn't be down there to begin with.

    I have always thought that !oDeath, Ruination, mushroom of disease, and all
    those nasty and "how come you did it ???" kind of items, are there for the
    simple reason of teaching us to play carefully, avoid the "heavy finger"
    syndrome, and most important, teaching to play with inscriptions and macros. I
    mean, not to play against the clock, but reading every line, thinking before
    hitting the keys, and be on the safe & always-double-check-before-you-move
    side.

    If this was not the reason, I don't know why they are there anyway.

    Regards,

    Leo

    --
    A(3.0.5) C "Weichafe I" hER L:50 DL:85 A+ R++ Sp+ w:Calris/Bard
    AW H- D- c f- PV+ s++ TT? d P++ M+
    C-- S- I- So- B-- ac !GHB SQ? !RQ V?
  9. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Polarhound wrote:
    > Timo Pietilä wrote:
    >
    >> Twilight wrote:
    >>
    >>> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
    >>> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
    >>
    >> How about drain all stats, reduce HP to half, KO and poisoned all at
    >> once? That would still mean you can be dead in next turn if you have
    >> bad company.
    >>
    >> Potion of detonations should just be poisonous and maybe cause you
    >> womit like potion of salt water, not cause explosion.
    >
    > Keep it as death.
    >
    > If anyone deep enough to actually find one can't afford a few ID
    > scrolls, they shouldn't be down there to begin with.

    I hate ID (just like Eddie). I would very much like to see game without.
    Testing should be right way to learn what things do (and maybe ID as
    shop service).

    Timo Pietilä
  10. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:06:17 +0200, "Twilight"
    <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
    >(severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.

    You could try Sangband.

    >To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
    >insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
    >rare occurence, but still.
    >
    >I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
    >minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!

    I don't like it for a few reasons:
    - Unless playing Ironman, Identification Scrolls should be easy to
    find/buy.
    - At low levels, an OOD item will produce a level feeling. If you don't
    find the special item among weapons/armor, the player will try identifying
    potions and scrolls. (Although, these items will be narrowed down by
    storing them for further tests.)
    - At deep levels, players will already have an aversion to using unknown
    items.
    - In fact, most negative potions/scrolls are one-shot threats. Once they
    are identified, they get junked/squelched/ignored every other time they
    appear. The only issue is if an enemy wipes your mind...
  11. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    "Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> writes:

    > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
    > address this, I'd certainly try it out.

    I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
    debugging code, printfs to standard out. :) I've got ego items and
    rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
    you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
    automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
    are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.


    Eddie
  12. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    "Raymond Martineau" wrote :
    > On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:06:17 +0200, "Twilight"
    > <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    >>IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
    >>(severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to
    >>xp.
    >
    > You could try Sangband.
    >

    I have played Sangband and know the effect of untried Death potion is
    not in fact death. I don't recall if that was the case when I played it
    2 years ago though.

    >>To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
    >>insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
    >>rare occurence, but still.
    >>
    >>I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
    >>minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!
    >
    > I don't like it for a few reasons:
    > - Unless playing Ironman, Identification Scrolls should be easy to
    > find/buy.
    > - At low levels, an OOD item will produce a level feeling. If you
    > don't
    > find the special item among weapons/armor, the player will try
    > identifying
    > potions and scrolls. (Although, these items will be narrowed down by
    > storing them for further tests.)

    Level feelings are not catchalls. On that level I got a superb feeling
    and there was _both_ a vault and an orc pit (with tons of OOD) to acount
    for that ... Of course I identify with normal characters, but IMO trying
    out stuff should be a possible approach. All this said - this is the
    first time (IIRC) in over a decade of *banding that I've ever succumbed
    to a potion of Death, mainly due to not playing ironman warriors! So it
    _is_ rare. IIRC I _have_ quaffed one or two in the old invulnerable
    days just for the heck of it.

    > - At deep levels, players will already have an aversion to using
    > unknown
    > items.
    > - In fact, most negative potions/scrolls are one-shot threats. Once
    > they
    > are identified, they get junked/squelched/ignored every other time
    > they
    > appear. The only issue is if an enemy wipes your mind...

    What I'm saying is that with a very small change the approach of trying
    out stuff will not be rewarded with an occasional insta-death. This
    won't change almost anything for the old style of playing, but makes
    testing things out a better proposition. Is this so bad?

    --
    Twilight (Tomas Dedorson)
    "It's better to burn out than to fade away!"
  13. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    "Timo Pietilä" wrote :
    >
    > I hate ID (just like Eddie). I would very much like to see game
    > without. Testing should be right way to learn what things do (and
    > maybe ID as shop service).
    >
    > Timo Pietilä

    I think I've begun to lean towards this, or a similar, philosophy as
    well lately. Although I don't have a strong aversion to playing with ID,
    testing things out as the (only) way to ID seems better and better in my
    eyes.

    The current main playstyle is to have practically "infinite" ID for all
    interesting things after a short while into the game with all classes.
    In practice this makes ID redundant as a game mechanic, since everything
    is (in effect) already identified when found.

    If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
    address this, I'd certainly try it out.

    In any event most changes that reward testing things out are good IMO.

    --
    Twilight (Tomas Dedorson)
    "It's better to burn out than to fade away!"
  14. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Twilight fpppffppffmpmpp:

    > IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
    > (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
    > To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
    > insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
    > rare occurence, but still.

    You could easily avoid the risk by keeping the potion in inventory for
    pseudo-id. There are another potions that are very dangerous like potions
    of corruption for example (say teleportosis). Since I quaffed from fountain
    of corruption, I don't identify by quaffing in ToME. Also I've found
    recently one of this activated strange object artifacts and after
    *identify* it turned out "could be activated for death every 200 turns" or
    something like that. :) Since then I don't identify these by activating
    either. In some games you could check out known objects and avoid the risk.


    > I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
    > minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!

    :) I don't think that the integrity of game world should be changed only
    in order to promote the players who take the easy way (assuming that
    ironman rules doesn't require quaffing all potions thet you find). You took
    the chance, the destiny was like that. Let "death" stay death, just like in
    real life.

    --
    Greetings,
    Loonie
    ---------------------------------
    De profondis clamo ad te, Domine.
    www.crawl.webpark.pl
  15. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    "Loonie" wrote :
    > Twilight fpppffppffmpmpp:
    >
    >> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
    >> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to
    >> xp.
    >> To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
    >> insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
    >> rare occurence, but still.
    >
    > You could easily avoid the risk by keeping the potion in inventory
    > for
    > pseudo-id. There are another potions that are very dangerous like
    > potions
    > of corruption for example (say teleportosis). Since I quaffed from
    > fountain
    > of corruption, I don't identify by quaffing in ToME. Also I've found
    > recently one of this activated strange object artifacts and after
    > *identify* it turned out "could be activated for death every 200
    > turns" or
    > something like that. :) Since then I don't identify these by
    > activating
    > either. In some games you could check out known objects and avoid the
    > risk.
    >

    Potions do not pseduo-identify in most *bands. ToME has grown far away
    from other *bands and some view it as another game entirely nowadays.

    >
    >> I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
    >> minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!
    >
    > :) I don't think that the integrity of game world should be changed
    > only
    > in order to promote the players who take the easy way (assuming that
    > ironman rules doesn't require quaffing all potions thet you find). You
    > took
    > the chance, the destiny was like that. Let "death" stay death, just
    > like in
    > real life.
    >

    Since potions do not pseudo-id the easy way is to just identify them in
    non-ironman games where id soon after the start is infinite for any
    class. My characters death had little to do with what I intended with my
    post. I had very little time invested in it so it was no loss and I
    probably shouldn't even have mentioned it, since that was not the point
    really. It was meant as a starting point for a discussion about whether
    to try and reward trying out items vs just infinite identification of
    everything.

    --
    Twilight (Tomas Dedorson)
    "It's better to burn out than to fade away!"
  16. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:

    > "Twilight" writes:
    >
    > > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
    > > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
    >
    > I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
    > debugging code, printfs to standard out. :) I've got ego items and
    > rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
    > you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
    > automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
    > are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.

    Yep. Never got it right for Unangband.

    I've just added a scroll of feedback in Unangband, which hits the player with
    nether, disenchant, light, and nexus, as well as cutting them, blinding them,
    stunning them, causing them to hallucinate and confusing them.

    I would have added darkness and poison as well, but a) there are already low
    level items that allow these two to be tested, and b) having a third effect
    that blinds a player causes them to miss certain attacks because they can't see
    the effect (its an implementation quirk).

    Andrew


    --
    Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
    AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
  17. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:

    > "Twilight" writes:
    >
    > > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
    > > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
    >
    > I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
    > debugging code, printfs to standard out. :) I've got ego items and
    > rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
    > you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
    > automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
    > are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
    >

    The other problem with testing is that I'm currently heading in the direction of
    adding the ability of the player to be able to target themself. This is great
    from one perspective - in that you can (for instance to verify fire resistance)
    hit yourself in head with a flask or torch; however leads to a slightly comical
    feeling in the game. Hmm. I need to check this elven armour for high
    resistance. Well - I'll cut my arm for Res. Shards, hit myself in the head for
    Res. Sound, drink this poisonous potion etc.

    While I'm all for items having multiple functions, this doesn't feel right.

    Andrew


    --
    Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
    AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
  18. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Andrew Doull wrote:

    > On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> "Twilight" writes:
    >>
    >> > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
    >> > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
    >>
    >> I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
    >> debugging code, printfs to standard out. :) I've got ego items and
    >> rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
    >> you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
    >> automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
    >> are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
    >>
    >
    > The other problem with testing is that I'm currently heading in the
    > direction of adding the ability of the player to be able to target
    > themself. This is great from one perspective - in that you can (for
    > instance to verify fire resistance) hit yourself in head with a flask or
    > torch; however leads to a slightly comical feeling in the game. Hmm. I
    > need to check this elven armour for high resistance. Well - I'll cut my
    > arm for Res. Shards, hit myself in the head for Res. Sound, drink this
    > poisonous potion etc.
    >
    > While I'm all for items having multiple functions, this doesn't feel
    > right.

    How to test for sound resistances in an easy way :
    - Find a bell
    - Equip said bell in the helm slot
    - hit yourself on the head with an hammer

    :)
  19. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Andrew Doull <andrewdoull@hotmail.com> wrote in
    news:d9uqad$2hs5$1@news.vol.cz:
    >
    > The other problem with testing is that I'm currently heading in the
    > direction of adding the ability of the player to be able to target
    > themself. This is great from one perspective - in that you can (for
    > instance to verify fire resistance) hit yourself in head with a flask
    > or torch; however leads to a slightly comical feeling in the game.
    > Hmm. I need to check this elven armour for high resistance. Well -
    > I'll cut my arm for Res. Shards, hit myself in the head for Res.
    > Sound, drink this poisonous potion etc.
    >
    > While I'm all for items having multiple functions, this doesn't feel
    > right.

    If you take it to a logical extension though, it can become an
    argument for immediate ID, at least for attack types you have available
    for testing. Or perhaps an automated "test item" command, that can
    take a variable amount of game time, but when done it runs through a
    checklist of all damage methods you have available at the moment.

    After all, why target yourself with a fireball when you have a torch?
    And why risk destroying an item with fire when you can just try singeing
    a corner first? Why should it take drinking a full bottle of poison
    when you want to see if your new breastplate will make you feel better,
    and could theoretically drink just a sip (or maybe chew on that nearby
    non-deadly mushroom that would normally just make you slightly queasy.)
    And as you imply, a helmet and a blunt object (or similar combination)
    should be enough to test resist sound.

    To some degree, if you allow for self-testing individual attack types,
    you are just replacing one command ID for multiple command ID.
  20. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Hugo Kornelis <Angband@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om> writes:

    > On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:32:59 -0700, Eddie Grove wrote:
    >
    >>"Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> writes:
    >>
    >>> If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
    >>> address this, I'd certainly try it out.
    >>
    >>I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
    >>debugging code, printfs to standard out. :) I've got ego items and
    >>rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
    >>you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
    >>automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
    >>are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
    >>
    >>
    >>Eddie
    >
    > Hi Eddie,
    >
    > If you find a way to fix this, do make sure to port it over to monster
    > memory. Currently, when I look at monster memory, I never know if a
    > monster is not resistant to fire, or f I just never hit him with fire
    > damage yet.
    >
    > Best, Hugo

    That's a separate issue. That's about the output of the describe
    monster function. Since I believe the player has the right to "know
    the rules", in my patch you simply get complete info when a monster is
    described, and nothing will port over to help you in other variants.

    I doubt I will address that issue unless I implement monsters with
    random resistances, and that is in the far future if at all. Sorry.


    Eddie
  21. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:32:59 -0700, Eddie Grove wrote:

    >"Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> writes:
    >
    >> If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
    >> address this, I'd certainly try it out.
    >
    >I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
    >debugging code, printfs to standard out. :) I've got ego items and
    >rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
    >you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
    >automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
    >are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
    >
    >
    >Eddie

    Hi Eddie,

    If you find a way to fix this, do make sure to port it over to monster
    memory. Currently, when I look at monster memory, I never know if a
    monster is not resistant to fire, or f I just never hit him with fire
    damage yet.

    Best, Hugo
    --
    Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
    There is a puff of smoke!

    (Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)
  22. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-06-30 03:30:42, Billy Bissette <baines@coastalnet.com> wrote:

    > Andrew Doull wrote in
    > news:d9uqad$2hs5$1@news.vol.cz:
    > >
    > > The other problem with testing is that I'm currently heading in the
    > > direction of adding the ability of the player to be able to target
    > > themself. This is great from one perspective - in that you can (for
    > > instance to verify fire resistance) hit yourself in head with a flask
    > > or torch; however leads to a slightly comical feeling in the game.
    > > Hmm. I need to check this elven armour for high resistance. Well -
    > > I'll cut my arm for Res. Shards, hit myself in the head for Res.
    > > Sound, drink this poisonous potion etc.
    > >
    > > While I'm all for items having multiple functions, this doesn't feel
    > > right.
    >
    > If you take it to a logical extension though, it can become an
    > argument for immediate ID, at least for attack types you have available
    > for testing. Or perhaps an automated "test item" command, that can
    > take a variable amount of game time, but when done it runs through a
    > checklist of all damage methods you have available at the moment.
    >
    > After all, why target yourself with a fireball when you have a torch?
    > And why risk destroying an item with fire when you can just try singeing
    > a corner first? Why should it take drinking a full bottle of poison
    > when you want to see if your new breastplate will make you feel better,
    > and could theoretically drink just a sip (or maybe chew on that nearby
    > non-deadly mushroom that would normally just make you slightly queasy.)
    > And as you imply, a helmet and a blunt object (or similar combination)
    > should be enough to test resist sound.
    >
    > To some degree, if you allow for self-testing individual attack types,
    > you are just replacing one command ID for multiple command ID.

    The next step, of course, becomes why have ID at all?

    Andrew


    --
    Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
    AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
  23. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Leo Lagos <leo.lagos@gmail.com> wrote:
    >I have always thought that !oDeath, Ruination, mushroom of disease, and
    >all those nasty and "how come you did it ???" kind of items, are there
    >for the simple reason of teaching us to play carefully, avoid the "heavy
    >finger" syndrome,

    I think all the negative items should have some positive use.
    Potions and mushrooms can be thrown for damage, or causing their
    effect against the monsters. I'll admit some are a bit difficult -
    when last thinking about this, I came up with Stupidity and Naivety
    lessening chance of spellcasters casting spells or possibly removing
    the "intelligent" flag. Haven't figured out how to use a Staff of Haste
    Monsters without pets yet, or a _oSlowness at all...


    Otto Martin - sometimes you might have to go class-specific
    --
    "I could use a feelings reset on a regular basis."
    "Don't you think that's kind of sad?"
    http://www.megatokyo.com/index.php?strip_id=471
  24. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Otto Martin <otto.martin@tut.fi> wrote in news:da1rs7$2o5u$1
    @news.cc.tut.fi:

    > Leo Lagos <leo.lagos@gmail.com> wrote:
    >>I have always thought that !oDeath, Ruination, mushroom of disease,
    and
    >>all those nasty and "how come you did it ???" kind of items, are there
    >>for the simple reason of teaching us to play carefully, avoid the
    "heavy
    >>finger" syndrome,
    >
    > I think all the negative items should have some positive use.
    > Potions and mushrooms can be thrown for damage, or causing their
    > effect against the monsters. I'll admit some are a bit difficult -
    > when last thinking about this, I came up with Stupidity and Naivety
    > lessening chance of spellcasters casting spells or possibly removing
    > the "intelligent" flag. Haven't figured out how to use a Staff of
    Haste
    > Monsters without pets yet, or a _oSlowness at all...

    A crafting system more developed than Sangband could theoretically
    give a use for any object. Either for harvesting/transferring
    magic, for raw material, or for turning "negatives" into various
    damage types on weapons (or even as defenses against those
    damage types.)

    Any system that allows drawing magic from items for any purpose,
    whether restoring mana or charging something else, would give at least
    some use to any charged object whether positive or negative effect.
    (Perhaps objects, spells, talents, or whatever to turn charges into
    mana, healing, speed, to transfer to other objects, whatever...)

    The idea of using negative objects to brand weapons is found in
    a few games. There is a use for negative mushrooms (and maybe even
    some positive in the right situation) as well as negative potions
    beyond throwing, whether the branding is temporary or permanent.

    Being able to break magic items in some kind of explosive fashion
    could be a use for even monster beneficial staves.


    Though the more different uses you find, the more the game itself
    starts to head towards the Nethack version of everything having a
    purpose. (Where darn near everything does have some kind of useful
    purpose, but a lot of the game is simply finding out what the
    different purposes are.)
  25. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:54:58 -0700, Eddie Grove wrote:

    >Hugo Kornelis <Angband@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om> writes:
    >
    >> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:32:59 -0700, Eddie Grove wrote:
    >>
    >>>"Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> writes:
    >>>
    >>>> If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
    >>>> address this, I'd certainly try it out.
    >>>
    >>>I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
    >>>debugging code, printfs to standard out. :) I've got ego items and
    >>>rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
    >>>you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
    >>>automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
    >>>are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Eddie
    >>
    >> Hi Eddie,
    >>
    >> If you find a way to fix this, do make sure to port it over to monster
    >> memory. Currently, when I look at monster memory, I never know if a
    >> monster is not resistant to fire, or f I just never hit him with fire
    >> damage yet.
    >>
    >> Best, Hugo
    >
    >That's a separate issue. That's about the output of the describe
    >monster function. Since I believe the player has the right to "know
    >the rules", in my patch you simply get complete info when a monster is
    >described, and nothing will port over to help you in other variants.
    >
    >I doubt I will address that issue unless I implement monsters with
    >random resistances, and that is in the far future if at all. Sorry.
    >
    >
    >Eddie

    Hi Eddie,

    No problem. I guess I'll either have to live with it, or I'll have to
    hunt down and learn how to use a C compiler. Going by my impressive
    amount of spare time (cough cough), it'll probably be the former..

    Best, Hugo
    --
    Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
    There is a puff of smoke!

    (Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)
  26. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:

    > "Twilight" writes:
    >
    > > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
    > > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
    >
    > I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
    > debugging code, printfs to standard out. :) I've got ego items and
    > rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
    > you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
    > automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
    > are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.

    Eddie, mind if I steal this idea. Despite what I've said before, I've just
    realised this is trivial in Unangband, because all object effects in this
    variant are already defined by flags.

    e.g. Unangband uses a spell.txt file that contains definitions of the the
    effects of all spells, objects and artifacts as follows.

    ...

    N:14:Cure Poison
    A:75:27:1
    A:80:12:1
    A:90:1:4
    A:90:24:2
    A:93:4:3
    C:1:5:5:35:4
    C:3:21:9:90:1
    C:4:11:9:45:3
    C:8:5:5:35:4
    F:CURE_POIS

    ...

    N:55:Heroism
    A:75:32:1
    A:90:7:1
    A:92:5:2
    A:93:3:23
    C:3:26:15:50:40
    C:4:18:15:50:40
    C:9:18:15:50:40
    B:SELF:HEAL:0d0+10
    F:CURE_FEAR | HERO
    L:1d20+20

    etc.

    So I just have to record for each object the player carries what flags they know
    it can and can't do, and how much hp's its healed the player, and how much it
    has teleported the player, and whether they know about any other blows.

    There is already a mechanism in place for guessing an object type / artifact /
    ego type and displaying that information...

    Andrew


    --
    Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
    AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
  27. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Andrew Doull <andrewdoull@hotmail.com> writes:

    > On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:
    >
    >> "Twilight" writes:
    >>
    >> > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
    >> > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
    >>
    >> I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
    >> debugging code, printfs to standard out. :) I've got ego items and
    >> rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
    >> you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
    >> automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
    >> are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
    >
    > Eddie, mind if I steal this idea. Despite what I've said before, I've just
    > realised this is trivial in Unangband, because all object effects in this
    > variant are already defined by flags.

    My *goal* is to have people "steal" my ideas!

    > e.g. Unangband uses a spell.txt file that contains definitions of the the
    > effects of all spells, objects and artifacts as follows.

    That's the kind of thing I will have to implement. Perhaps I will
    steal from you. I wish everyone would do it that way. The current
    method in V etc is really bad news.

    Do you generate object descriptions from the spell.txt file so that a
    change to an effect automatically changes the description?

    > So I just have to record for each object the player carries what flags they know
    > it can and can't do, and how much hp's its healed the player, and how much it
    > has teleported the player, and whether they know about any other blows.

    I don't see how it relates to what is carried. If you eat your only
    mushroom, you should still retain the knowledge. Keep two arrays with
    an entry for each flavored object that tell which properties are known
    to apply and known not to apply. I guess also a min/max on the
    healing too.


    Eddie
  28. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On 2005-07-01 19:56:43, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:

    > Andrew Doull writes:
    >
    > > On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove wrote:
    > >
    > >> "Twilight" writes:
    > >>
    > >> > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
    > >> > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
    > >>
    > >> I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
    > >> debugging code, printfs to standard out. :) I've got ego items and
    > >> rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
    > >> you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
    > >> automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
    > >> are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
    > >
    > > Eddie, mind if I steal this idea. Despite what I've said before, I've just
    > > realised this is trivial in Unangband, because all object effects in this
    > > variant are already defined by flags.
    >
    > My *goal* is to have people "steal" my ideas!
    >
    > > e.g. Unangband uses a spell.txt file that contains definitions of the the
    > > effects of all spells, objects and artifacts as follows.
    >
    > That's the kind of thing I will have to implement. Perhaps I will
    > steal from you. I wish everyone would do it that way. The current
    > method in V etc is really bad news.
    >
    > Do you generate object descriptions from the spell.txt file so that a
    > change to an effect automatically changes the description?
    >

    Yes.

    > > So I just have to record for each object the player carries what flags they know
    > > it can and can't do, and how much hp's its healed the player, and how much it
    > > has teleported the player, and whether they know about any other blows.
    >
    > I don't see how it relates to what is carried. If you eat your only
    > mushroom, you should still retain the knowledge. Keep two arrays with
    > an entry for each flavored object that tell which properties are known
    > to apply and known not to apply. I guess also a min/max on the
    > healing too.
    >

    You're correct. I was lazy and only recording objects that you carry, plus ego
    items and artifacts. The correct way, of course, is to include flavours as
    well.

    As opposed to using arrays though, I expand the definitions for each of
    artifacts, objects and ego items in types.h. This means you don't have to worry
    about dynamically allocating additional data structures, as this is
    automatically done based on the size of the existing type definitions.

    Andrew

    --
    Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
    AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
  29. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Twilight was
    seen to write...


    > That sounds like good idea to me. I might overexplain here, but I'd like
    > to clarify that I'm not that concerned about early deaths like my last
    > one - I just mentioned the depth to show that the potion was OOD. What I
    > meant was that the idea (IMO) of an insta-death with no chance of
    > survival for *any* character is bad.
    There is one chance. The Potion of Death doesn't kill you outright,
    it just removes 5000HP instantly. So if you're one of those saddos
    who abuses the ToME alchemy system to get tens of thousands of
    hitpoints, you'll probably survive.

    Cold comfort, eh? :->
    --
    - Martin Bazley - "Being me is a 24-hour job"
    martin@bazley.freeuk.com - Wimbledon, London, England
    ============== ARM 610 17MB RiscPC 600 ==============
    ================= RISC OS Rules OK! =================
  30. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Timo Pietilä
    was seen to write...

    > Twilight wrote:
    >> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
    >> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
    >
    > How about drain all stats, reduce HP to half, KO and poisoned all at
    > once? That would still mean you can be dead in next turn if you have bad
    > company.
    >
    > Potion of detonations should just be poisonous and maybe cause you womit
    > like potion of salt water, not cause explosion.
    >
    > Timo Pietilä
    Err...what exactly is the connection between vomiting and a Potion of
    Detonations?

    Not that I'm trying to open a can of worms on the matter, I hasten to
    add. :->
    --
    - Martin Bazley - "Being me is a 24-hour job"
    martin@bazley.freeuk.com - Wimbledon, London, England
    ============== ARM 610 17MB RiscPC 600 ==============
    ================= RISC OS Rules OK! =================
  31. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Billy
    Bissette was seen to write...

    > Being able to break magic items in some kind of explosive fashion
    > could be a use for even monster beneficial staves.
    Has somebody played Kamband recently?

    --
    - Martin Bazley - "Being me is a 24-hour job"
    martin@bazley.freeuk.com - Wimbledon, London, England
    ============== ARM 610 17MB RiscPC 600 ==============
    ================= RISC OS Rules OK! =================
  32. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Andrew Doull
    was seen to write...

    >
    > The other problem with testing is that I'm currently heading in the
    > direction of
    > adding the ability of the player to be able to target themself. This is great
    > from one perspective - in that you can (for instance to verify fire
    > resistance)
    > hit yourself in head with a flask or torch; however leads to a
    > slightly comical
    > feeling in the game. Hmm. I need to check this elven armour for high
    > resistance. Well - I'll cut my arm for Res. Shards, hit myself in the head for
    > Res. Sound, drink this poisonous potion etc.
    >
    > While I'm all for items having multiple functions, this doesn't feel right.
    Sounds great to me.

    What on earth is wrong with having a comical touch in your game?
    Angband used to be full of those. My personal favourite was the
    description for the Mage - "A mage of some power - you can tell by the
    size of his hat." In my opinion, a game that attempts to be devoid of
    any humour is just sadistic.

    My brother shares the same opinion. If you don't believe me then go
    to http://www.starfighter.acornarcade.com/ ,click on 'Welcome' and
    scroll to the bottom of the page!
    --
    - Martin Bazley - "Being me is a 24-hour job"
    martin@bazley.freeuk.com - Wimbledon, London, England
    ============== ARM 610 17MB RiscPC 600 ==============
    ================= RISC OS Rules OK! =================
  33. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Martin Bazley <martin@bazley.freeuk.com> wrote in
    news:cbfae8874d.martin@freeuk.com:

    > On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Billy
    > Bissette was seen to write...
    >
    >> Being able to break magic items in some kind of explosive fashion
    >> could be a use for even monster beneficial staves.
    > Has somebody played Kamband recently?

    Not for years, actually. The last time I played was around the time
    weapons were made to wear down and break with use, and your first weapon
    generally broke about five minutes into the game. Which was after items
    could come in any random material type. I liked Kam, but it needed a
    bit more polish at the time, and then I quit playing any *bands at all.
  34. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    Martin Bazley wrote:
    > On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Timo Pietilä
    > was seen to write...

    >>Potion of detonations should just be poisonous and maybe cause you womit
    >>like potion of salt water, not cause explosion.

    > Err...what exactly is the connection between vomiting and a Potion of
    > Detonations?

    Most liquid explosives are poisonous or at least taste really bad. OTOH
    they rarely explode if you drink them (unless substance is _really_
    unstable)

    Timo Pietilä
  35. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    My take on this is the following :

    More negative potions should have effects when thrown and hence be
    identifiable. Once a potion is thrown and no effect is seen ( you would
    see an effect for Death and Detonations )

    This could means the statuses of the potion could be
    <- Nothing, just found
    {Tried throwing} <- Has been thrown already but no effect was
    noticed, not yet tried to drink
    {Tried drinking} <- Has been drunk already but no effect was noticed,
    not tried to throw yet
    {Tried} <- Has been drunk and been thrown, no effect was noticed (
    Cannot come up with a situation where this could happen, but for the
    sake of completeness ... )

    This means that iron men should always throw their potion the first
    time. Of coursing seeing : 'The blue yeek becomes more experienced'
    could be a very frustrating message ;)

    T.
  36. Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

    konijn_ wrote:

    > {Tried} <- Has been drunk and been thrown, no effect was noticed (
    > Cannot come up with a situation where this could happen, but for the
    > sake of completeness ... )

    Slow poison is an example.

    > This means that iron men should always throw their potion the first
    > time. Of coursing seeing : 'The blue yeek becomes more experienced'
    > could be a very frustrating message ;)

    You could really go to town with this one:

    'The blue yeek becomes wet' (Water)

    'The blue yeek becomes very cute' (Charisma - same effect as player
    drinking Pint of Ale ;)

    'The blue yeek tells you to be more careful when reaching for the salt'
    (Apple Juice)

    Nick.
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