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[V, All] Potion of Death

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June 28, 2005 12:06:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
(severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.

To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
rare occurence, but still.

I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!

--
Twilight (Tomas Dedorson)
"It's better to burn out than to fade away!"

More about : potion death

Anonymous
June 28, 2005 12:06:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> writes:

> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
>
> To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
> insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
> rare occurence, but still.
>
> I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
> minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!

IMO potions of death and detonations should explode when you open them
doing the same damage to you that they do to monsters when you throw
the potions at monsters. Nether resistance should reduce !death damage.

That still might kill a character at 650'.


Eddie
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 12:06:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-06-28 08:06:17, "Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> wrote:

> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
>
> To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
> insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
> rare occurence, but still.
>
> I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
> minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!

Sangband ensures that no potion you try will kill you straight away. Through
fair means or foul...

Andrew

--
Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
Related resources
June 28, 2005 12:38:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Eddie Grove" wrote :


> IMO potions of death and detonations should explode when you open them
> doing the same damage to you that they do to monsters when you throw
> the potions at monsters. Nether resistance should reduce !death
> damage.
>
> That still might kill a character at 650'.
>
>
> Eddie

That sounds like good idea to me. I might overexplain here, but I'd like
to clarify that I'm not that concerned about early deaths like my last
one - I just mentioned the depth to show that the potion was OOD. What I
meant was that the idea (IMO) of an insta-death with no chance of
survival for *any* character is bad.

--
Twilight (Tomas Dedorson)
"It's better to burn out than to fade away!"
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 2:22:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Mon, 27 Jun 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:
> Nether resistance should reduce !death damage.

Personally, I just had it so that potions of Death have no effect when
drunk by a character with Hold Life...

--
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They
never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our
people, and neither do we." - George W. Bush [August 5th, 2004]
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~aa343/index.html
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 4:19:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Twilight wrote:
> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.

How about drain all stats, reduce HP to half, KO and poisoned all at
once? That would still mean you can be dead in next turn if you have bad
company.

Potion of detonations should just be poisonous and maybe cause you womit
like potion of salt water, not cause explosion.

Timo Pietilä
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 4:19:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Timo Pietilä wrote:
> Twilight wrote:
>
>> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
>> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
>
>
> How about drain all stats, reduce HP to half, KO and poisoned all at
> once? That would still mean you can be dead in next turn if you have bad
> company.
>
> Potion of detonations should just be poisonous and maybe cause you womit
> like potion of salt water, not cause explosion.

Keep it as death.

If anyone deep enough to actually find one can't afford a few ID
scrolls, they shouldn't be down there to begin with.
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 7:04:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-06-28 08:06:17, "Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> wrote:

> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.

I'd rather get death. saves me a couple of suicide-now keystrokes.
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 8:31:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-06-28 18:15:21, Polarhound <Polarhound@comcast.net> wrote:

> >> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different=20
> >> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
>
> Keep it as death.
>
> If anyone deep enough to actually find one can't afford a few ID=20
> scrolls, they shouldn't be down there to begin with.

I have always thought that !oDeath, Ruination, mushroom of disease, and all
those nasty and "how come you did it ???" kind of items, are there for the
simple reason of teaching us to play carefully, avoid the "heavy finger"
syndrome, and most important, teaching to play with inscriptions and macros. I
mean, not to play against the clock, but reading every line, thinking before
hitting the keys, and be on the safe & always-double-check-before-you-move
side.

If this was not the reason, I don't know why they are there anyway.

Regards,

Leo

--
A(3.0.5) C "Weichafe I" hER L:50 DL:85 A+ R++ Sp+ w:Calris/Bard
AW H- D- c f- PV+ s++ TT? d P++ M+
C-- S- I- So- B-- ac !GHB SQ? !RQ V?
Anonymous
June 28, 2005 11:52:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Polarhound wrote:
> Timo Pietilä wrote:
>
>> Twilight wrote:
>>
>>> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
>>> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
>>
>> How about drain all stats, reduce HP to half, KO and poisoned all at
>> once? That would still mean you can be dead in next turn if you have
>> bad company.
>>
>> Potion of detonations should just be poisonous and maybe cause you
>> womit like potion of salt water, not cause explosion.
>
> Keep it as death.
>
> If anyone deep enough to actually find one can't afford a few ID
> scrolls, they shouldn't be down there to begin with.

I hate ID (just like Eddie). I would very much like to see game without.
Testing should be right way to learn what things do (and maybe ID as
shop service).

Timo Pietilä
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 2:03:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:06:17 +0200, "Twilight"
<twilight_forest@hotmail.com> wrote:

>IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
>(severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.

You could try Sangband.

>To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
>insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
>rare occurence, but still.
>
>I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
>minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!

I don't like it for a few reasons:
- Unless playing Ironman, Identification Scrolls should be easy to
find/buy.
- At low levels, an OOD item will produce a level feeling. If you don't
find the special item among weapons/armor, the player will try identifying
potions and scrolls. (Although, these items will be narrowed down by
storing them for further tests.)
- At deep levels, players will already have an aversion to using unknown
items.
- In fact, most negative potions/scrolls are one-shot threats. Once they
are identified, they get junked/squelched/ignored every other time they
appear. The only issue is if an enemy wipes your mind...
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 3:32:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> writes:

> If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
> address this, I'd certainly try it out.

I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
debugging code, printfs to standard out. :)  I've got ego items and
rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.


Eddie
June 29, 2005 11:35:15 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Raymond Martineau" wrote :
> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 08:06:17 +0200, "Twilight"
> <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
>>(severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to
>>xp.
>
> You could try Sangband.
>

I have played Sangband and know the effect of untried Death potion is
not in fact death. I don't recall if that was the case when I played it
2 years ago though.

>>To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
>>insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
>>rare occurence, but still.
>>
>>I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
>>minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!
>
> I don't like it for a few reasons:
> - Unless playing Ironman, Identification Scrolls should be easy to
> find/buy.
> - At low levels, an OOD item will produce a level feeling. If you
> don't
> find the special item among weapons/armor, the player will try
> identifying
> potions and scrolls. (Although, these items will be narrowed down by
> storing them for further tests.)

Level feelings are not catchalls. On that level I got a superb feeling
and there was _both_ a vault and an orc pit (with tons of OOD) to acount
for that ... Of course I identify with normal characters, but IMO trying
out stuff should be a possible approach. All this said - this is the
first time (IIRC) in over a decade of *banding that I've ever succumbed
to a potion of Death, mainly due to not playing ironman warriors! So it
_is_ rare. IIRC I _have_ quaffed one or two in the old invulnerable
days just for the heck of it.

> - At deep levels, players will already have an aversion to using
> unknown
> items.
> - In fact, most negative potions/scrolls are one-shot threats. Once
> they
> are identified, they get junked/squelched/ignored every other time
> they
> appear. The only issue is if an enemy wipes your mind...

What I'm saying is that with a very small change the approach of trying
out stuff will not be rewarded with an occasional insta-death. This
won't change almost anything for the old style of playing, but makes
testing things out a better proposition. Is this so bad?

--
Twilight (Tomas Dedorson)
"It's better to burn out than to fade away!"
June 29, 2005 12:05:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Timo Pietilä" wrote :
>
> I hate ID (just like Eddie). I would very much like to see game
> without. Testing should be right way to learn what things do (and
> maybe ID as shop service).
>
> Timo Pietilä

I think I've begun to lean towards this, or a similar, philosophy as
well lately. Although I don't have a strong aversion to playing with ID,
testing things out as the (only) way to ID seems better and better in my
eyes.

The current main playstyle is to have practically "infinite" ID for all
interesting things after a short while into the game with all classes.
In practice this makes ID redundant as a game mechanic, since everything
is (in effect) already identified when found.

If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
address this, I'd certainly try it out.

In any event most changes that reward testing things out are good IMO.

--
Twilight (Tomas Dedorson)
"It's better to burn out than to fade away!"
June 29, 2005 8:16:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Twilight fpppffppffmpmpp:

> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
> To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
> insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
> rare occurence, but still.

You could easily avoid the risk by keeping the potion in inventory for
pseudo-id. There are another potions that are very dangerous like potions
of corruption for example (say teleportosis). Since I quaffed from fountain
of corruption, I don't identify by quaffing in ToME. Also I've found
recently one of this activated strange object artifacts and after
*identify* it turned out "could be activated for death every 200 turns" or
something like that. :)  Since then I don't identify these by activating
either. In some games you could check out known objects and avoid the risk.


> I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
> minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!

:)  I don't think that the integrity of game world should be changed only
in order to promote the players who take the easy way (assuming that
ironman rules doesn't require quaffing all potions thet you find). You took
the chance, the destiny was like that. Let "death" stay death, just like in
real life.

--
Greetings,
Loonie
---------------------------------
De profondis clamo ad te, Domine.
www.crawl.webpark.pl
June 29, 2005 8:51:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Loonie" wrote :
> Twilight fpppffppffmpmpp:
>
>> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
>> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to
>> xp.
>> To reward players who are trying out potions by use with a possible
>> insta-death is not a good thing in my eyes. This is of course a very
>> rare occurence, but still.
>
> You could easily avoid the risk by keeping the potion in inventory
> for
> pseudo-id. There are another potions that are very dangerous like
> potions
> of corruption for example (say teleportosis). Since I quaffed from
> fountain
> of corruption, I don't identify by quaffing in ToME. Also I've found
> recently one of this activated strange object artifacts and after
> *identify* it turned out "could be activated for death every 200
> turns" or
> something like that. :)  Since then I don't identify these by
> activating
> either. In some games you could check out known objects and avoid the
> risk.
>

Potions do not pseduo-identify in most *bands. ToME has grown far away
from other *bands and some view it as another game entirely nowadays.

>
>> I might be biased by the death of my ironman warrior at 650 ft a few
>> minutes ago though. Ah well - next game!
>
> :)  I don't think that the integrity of game world should be changed
> only
> in order to promote the players who take the easy way (assuming that
> ironman rules doesn't require quaffing all potions thet you find). You
> took
> the chance, the destiny was like that. Let "death" stay death, just
> like in
> real life.
>

Since potions do not pseudo-id the easy way is to just identify them in
non-ironman games where id soon after the start is infinite for any
class. My characters death had little to do with what I intended with my
post. I had very little time invested in it so it was no loss and I
probably shouldn't even have mentioned it, since that was not the point
really. It was meant as a starting point for a discussion about whether
to try and reward trying out items vs just infinite identification of
everything.

--
Twilight (Tomas Dedorson)
"It's better to burn out than to fade away!"
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 10:36:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:

> "Twilight" writes:
>
> > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
> > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
>
> I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
> debugging code, printfs to standard out. :)  I've got ego items and
> rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
> you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
> automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
> are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.

Yep. Never got it right for Unangband.

I've just added a scroll of feedback in Unangband, which hits the player with
nether, disenchant, light, and nexus, as well as cutting them, blinding them,
stunning them, causing them to hallucinate and confusing them.

I would have added darkness and poison as well, but a) there are already low
level items that allow these two to be tested, and b) having a third effect
that blinds a player causes them to miss certain attacks because they can't see
the effect (its an implementation quirk).

Andrew


--
Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
Anonymous
June 29, 2005 10:46:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:

> "Twilight" writes:
>
> > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
> > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
>
> I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
> debugging code, printfs to standard out. :)  I've got ego items and
> rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
> you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
> automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
> are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
>

The other problem with testing is that I'm currently heading in the direction of
adding the ability of the player to be able to target themself. This is great
from one perspective - in that you can (for instance to verify fire resistance)
hit yourself in head with a flask or torch; however leads to a slightly comical
feeling in the game. Hmm. I need to check this elven armour for high
resistance. Well - I'll cut my arm for Res. Shards, hit myself in the head for
Res. Sound, drink this poisonous potion etc.

While I'm all for items having multiple functions, this doesn't feel right.

Andrew


--
Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 1:03:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Andrew Doull wrote:

> On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "Twilight" writes:
>>
>> > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
>> > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
>>
>> I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
>> debugging code, printfs to standard out. :)  I've got ego items and
>> rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
>> you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
>> automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
>> are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
>>
>
> The other problem with testing is that I'm currently heading in the
> direction of adding the ability of the player to be able to target
> themself. This is great from one perspective - in that you can (for
> instance to verify fire resistance) hit yourself in head with a flask or
> torch; however leads to a slightly comical feeling in the game. Hmm. I
> need to check this elven armour for high resistance. Well - I'll cut my
> arm for Res. Shards, hit myself in the head for Res. Sound, drink this
> poisonous potion etc.
>
> While I'm all for items having multiple functions, this doesn't feel
> right.

How to test for sound resistances in an easy way :
- Find a bell
- Equip said bell in the helm slot
- hit yourself on the head with an hammer

:) 
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 5:30:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Andrew Doull <andrewdoull@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:D 9uqad$2hs5$1@news.vol.cz:
>
> The other problem with testing is that I'm currently heading in the
> direction of adding the ability of the player to be able to target
> themself. This is great from one perspective - in that you can (for
> instance to verify fire resistance) hit yourself in head with a flask
> or torch; however leads to a slightly comical feeling in the game.
> Hmm. I need to check this elven armour for high resistance. Well -
> I'll cut my arm for Res. Shards, hit myself in the head for Res.
> Sound, drink this poisonous potion etc.
>
> While I'm all for items having multiple functions, this doesn't feel
> right.

If you take it to a logical extension though, it can become an
argument for immediate ID, at least for attack types you have available
for testing. Or perhaps an automated "test item" command, that can
take a variable amount of game time, but when done it runs through a
checklist of all damage methods you have available at the moment.

After all, why target yourself with a fireball when you have a torch?
And why risk destroying an item with fire when you can just try singeing
a corner first? Why should it take drinking a full bottle of poison
when you want to see if your new breastplate will make you feel better,
and could theoretically drink just a sip (or maybe chew on that nearby
non-deadly mushroom that would normally just make you slightly queasy.)
And as you imply, a helmet and a blunt object (or similar combination)
should be enough to test resist sound.

To some degree, if you allow for self-testing individual attack types,
you are just replacing one command ID for multiple command ID.
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 12:54:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Hugo Kornelis <Angband@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om> writes:

> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:32:59 -0700, Eddie Grove wrote:
>
>>"Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
>>> address this, I'd certainly try it out.
>>
>>I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
>>debugging code, printfs to standard out. :)  I've got ego items and
>>rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
>>you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
>>automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
>>are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
>>
>>
>>Eddie
>
> Hi Eddie,
>
> If you find a way to fix this, do make sure to port it over to monster
> memory. Currently, when I look at monster memory, I never know if a
> monster is not resistant to fire, or f I just never hit him with fire
> damage yet.
>
> Best, Hugo

That's a separate issue. That's about the output of the describe
monster function. Since I believe the player has the right to "know
the rules", in my patch you simply get complete info when a monster is
described, and nothing will port over to help you in other variants.

I doubt I will address that issue unless I implement monsters with
random resistances, and that is in the far future if at all. Sorry.


Eddie
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 4:22:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:32:59 -0700, Eddie Grove wrote:

>"Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
>> address this, I'd certainly try it out.
>
>I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
>debugging code, printfs to standard out. :)  I've got ego items and
>rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
>you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
>automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
>are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
>
>
>Eddie

Hi Eddie,

If you find a way to fix this, do make sure to port it over to monster
memory. Currently, when I look at monster memory, I never know if a
monster is not resistant to fire, or f I just never hit him with fire
damage yet.

Best, Hugo
--
Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!

(Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)
Anonymous
June 30, 2005 10:46:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-06-30 03:30:42, Billy Bissette <baines@coastalnet.com> wrote:

> Andrew Doull wrote in
> news:D 9uqad$2hs5$1@news.vol.cz:
> >
> > The other problem with testing is that I'm currently heading in the
> > direction of adding the ability of the player to be able to target
> > themself. This is great from one perspective - in that you can (for
> > instance to verify fire resistance) hit yourself in head with a flask
> > or torch; however leads to a slightly comical feeling in the game.
> > Hmm. I need to check this elven armour for high resistance. Well -
> > I'll cut my arm for Res. Shards, hit myself in the head for Res.
> > Sound, drink this poisonous potion etc.
> >
> > While I'm all for items having multiple functions, this doesn't feel
> > right.
>
> If you take it to a logical extension though, it can become an
> argument for immediate ID, at least for attack types you have available
> for testing. Or perhaps an automated "test item" command, that can
> take a variable amount of game time, but when done it runs through a
> checklist of all damage methods you have available at the moment.
>
> After all, why target yourself with a fireball when you have a torch?
> And why risk destroying an item with fire when you can just try singeing
> a corner first? Why should it take drinking a full bottle of poison
> when you want to see if your new breastplate will make you feel better,
> and could theoretically drink just a sip (or maybe chew on that nearby
> non-deadly mushroom that would normally just make you slightly queasy.)
> And as you imply, a helmet and a blunt object (or similar combination)
> should be enough to test resist sound.
>
> To some degree, if you allow for self-testing individual attack types,
> you are just replacing one command ID for multiple command ID.

The next step, of course, becomes why have ID at all?

Andrew


--
Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 2:31:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Leo Lagos <leo.lagos@gmail.com> wrote:
>I have always thought that !oDeath, Ruination, mushroom of disease, and
>all those nasty and "how come you did it ???" kind of items, are there
>for the simple reason of teaching us to play carefully, avoid the "heavy
>finger" syndrome,

I think all the negative items should have some positive use.
Potions and mushrooms can be thrown for damage, or causing their
effect against the monsters. I'll admit some are a bit difficult -
when last thinking about this, I came up with Stupidity and Naivety
lessening chance of spellcasters casting spells or possibly removing
the "intelligent" flag. Haven't figured out how to use a Staff of Haste
Monsters without pets yet, or a _oSlowness at all...


Otto Martin - sometimes you might have to go class-specific
--
"I could use a feelings reset on a regular basis."
"Don't you think that's kind of sad?"
http://www.megatokyo.com/index.php?strip_id=471
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 4:10:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Otto Martin <otto.martin@tut.fi> wrote in news:D a1rs7$2o5u$1
@news.cc.tut.fi:

> Leo Lagos <leo.lagos@gmail.com> wrote:
>>I have always thought that !oDeath, Ruination, mushroom of disease,
and
>>all those nasty and "how come you did it ???" kind of items, are there
>>for the simple reason of teaching us to play carefully, avoid the
"heavy
>>finger" syndrome,
>
> I think all the negative items should have some positive use.
> Potions and mushrooms can be thrown for damage, or causing their
> effect against the monsters. I'll admit some are a bit difficult -
> when last thinking about this, I came up with Stupidity and Naivety
> lessening chance of spellcasters casting spells or possibly removing
> the "intelligent" flag. Haven't figured out how to use a Staff of
Haste
> Monsters without pets yet, or a _oSlowness at all...

A crafting system more developed than Sangband could theoretically
give a use for any object. Either for harvesting/transferring
magic, for raw material, or for turning "negatives" into various
damage types on weapons (or even as defenses against those
damage types.)

Any system that allows drawing magic from items for any purpose,
whether restoring mana or charging something else, would give at least
some use to any charged object whether positive or negative effect.
(Perhaps objects, spells, talents, or whatever to turn charges into
mana, healing, speed, to transfer to other objects, whatever...)

The idea of using negative objects to brand weapons is found in
a few games. There is a use for negative mushrooms (and maybe even
some positive in the right situation) as well as negative potions
beyond throwing, whether the branding is temporary or permanent.

Being able to break magic items in some kind of explosive fashion
could be a use for even monster beneficial staves.


Though the more different uses you find, the more the game itself
starts to head towards the Nethack version of everything having a
purpose. (Where darn near everything does have some kind of useful
purpose, but a lot of the game is simply finding out what the
different purposes are.)
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 4:47:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:54:58 -0700, Eddie Grove wrote:

>Hugo Kornelis <Angband@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 23:32:59 -0700, Eddie Grove wrote:
>>
>>>"Twilight" <twilight_forest@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
>>>> address this, I'd certainly try it out.
>>>
>>>I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
>>>debugging code, printfs to standard out. :)  I've got ego items and
>>>rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
>>>you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
>>>automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
>>>are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
>>>
>>>
>>>Eddie
>>
>> Hi Eddie,
>>
>> If you find a way to fix this, do make sure to port it over to monster
>> memory. Currently, when I look at monster memory, I never know if a
>> monster is not resistant to fire, or f I just never hit him with fire
>> damage yet.
>>
>> Best, Hugo
>
>That's a separate issue. That's about the output of the describe
>monster function. Since I believe the player has the right to "know
>the rules", in my patch you simply get complete info when a monster is
>described, and nothing will port over to help you in other variants.
>
>I doubt I will address that issue unless I implement monsters with
>random resistances, and that is in the far future if at all. Sorry.
>
>
>Eddie

Hi Eddie,

No problem. I guess I'll either have to live with it, or I'll have to
hunt down and learn how to use a C compiler. Going by my impressive
amount of spare time (cough cough), it'll probably be the former..

Best, Hugo
--
Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!

(Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 12:24:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:

> "Twilight" writes:
>
> > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
> > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
>
> I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
> debugging code, printfs to standard out. :)  I've got ego items and
> rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
> you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
> automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
> are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.

Eddie, mind if I steal this idea. Despite what I've said before, I've just
realised this is trivial in Unangband, because all object effects in this
variant are already defined by flags.

e.g. Unangband uses a spell.txt file that contains definitions of the the
effects of all spells, objects and artifacts as follows.

...

N:14:Cure Poison
A:75:27:1
A:80:12:1
A:90:1:4
A:90:24:2
A:93:4:3
C:1:5:5:35:4
C:3:21:9:90:1
C:4:11:9:45:3
C:8:5:5:35:4
F:CURE_POIS

...

N:55:Heroism
A:75:32:1
A:90:7:1
A:92:5:2
A:93:3:23
C:3:26:15:50:40
C:4:18:15:50:40
C:9:18:15:50:40
B:SELF:HEAL:0d0+10
F:CURE_FEAR | HERO
L:1d20+20

etc.

So I just have to record for each object the player carries what flags they know
it can and can't do, and how much hp's its healed the player, and how much it
has teleported the player, and whether they know about any other blows.

There is already a mechanism in place for guessing an object type / artifact /
ego type and displaying that information...

Andrew


--
Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
Anonymous
July 1, 2005 2:56:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Andrew Doull <andrewdoull@hotmail.com> writes:

> On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:
>
>> "Twilight" writes:
>>
>> > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
>> > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
>>
>> I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
>> debugging code, printfs to standard out. :)  I've got ego items and
>> rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
>> you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
>> automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
>> are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
>
> Eddie, mind if I steal this idea. Despite what I've said before, I've just
> realised this is trivial in Unangband, because all object effects in this
> variant are already defined by flags.

My *goal* is to have people "steal" my ideas!

> e.g. Unangband uses a spell.txt file that contains definitions of the the
> effects of all spells, objects and artifacts as follows.

That's the kind of thing I will have to implement. Perhaps I will
steal from you. I wish everyone would do it that way. The current
method in V etc is really bad news.

Do you generate object descriptions from the spell.txt file so that a
change to an effect automatically changes the description?

> So I just have to record for each object the player carries what flags they know
> it can and can't do, and how much hp's its healed the player, and how much it
> has teleported the player, and whether they know about any other blows.

I don't see how it relates to what is carried. If you eat your only
mushroom, you should still retain the knowledge. Keep two arrays with
an entry for each flavored object that tell which properties are known
to apply and known not to apply. I guess also a min/max on the
healing too.


Eddie
Anonymous
July 2, 2005 2:24:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-07-01 19:56:43, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:

> Andrew Doull writes:
>
> > On 2005-06-29 08:32:59, Eddie Grove wrote:
> >
> >> "Twilight" writes:
> >>
> >> > If Eddie Grove ever gets a variant out, that among other things would
> >> > address this, I'd certainly try it out.
> >>
> >> I am maybe 1/3 to 1/2 done. Playing currently requires looking at the
> >> debugging code, printfs to standard out. :)  I've got ego items and
> >> rings/amulets working, but not consumable items like mushrooms. If
> >> you eat a mushroom while poisoned and it doesn't help, the game should
> >> automatically remember that for that flavor certain types of mushrooms
> >> are impossible. That is currently missing, and is a big deal to fix.
> >
> > Eddie, mind if I steal this idea. Despite what I've said before, I've just
> > realised this is trivial in Unangband, because all object effects in this
> > variant are already defined by flags.
>
> My *goal* is to have people "steal" my ideas!
>
> > e.g. Unangband uses a spell.txt file that contains definitions of the the
> > effects of all spells, objects and artifacts as follows.
>
> That's the kind of thing I will have to implement. Perhaps I will
> steal from you. I wish everyone would do it that way. The current
> method in V etc is really bad news.
>
> Do you generate object descriptions from the spell.txt file so that a
> change to an effect automatically changes the description?
>

Yes.

> > So I just have to record for each object the player carries what flags they know
> > it can and can't do, and how much hp's its healed the player, and how much it
> > has teleported the player, and whether they know about any other blows.
>
> I don't see how it relates to what is carried. If you eat your only
> mushroom, you should still retain the knowledge. Keep two arrays with
> an entry for each flavored object that tell which properties are known
> to apply and known not to apply. I guess also a min/max on the
> healing too.
>

You're correct. I was lazy and only recording objects that you carry, plus ego
items and artifacts. The correct way, of course, is to include flavours as
well.

As opposed to using arrays though, I expand the definitions for each of
artifacts, objects and ego items in types.h. This means you don't have to worry
about dynamically allocating additional data structures, as this is
automatically done based on the size of the existing type definitions.

Andrew

--
Unangband L:C E+ T- R- P+ D-- G+(+) F:Sangband RL-- RLA-- W:F Q++
AI+(++) GFX++ SFX++ RN+++(+) PO++ Hp+++ Re--(+) S++ C- O* KG--
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 12:32:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Twilight was
seen to write...


> That sounds like good idea to me. I might overexplain here, but I'd like
> to clarify that I'm not that concerned about early deaths like my last
> one - I just mentioned the depth to show that the potion was OOD. What I
> meant was that the idea (IMO) of an insta-death with no chance of
> survival for *any* character is bad.
There is one chance. The Potion of Death doesn't kill you outright,
it just removes 5000HP instantly. So if you're one of those saddos
who abuses the ToME alchemy system to get tens of thousands of
hitpoints, you'll probably survive.

Cold comfort, eh? :->
--
- Martin Bazley - "Being me is a 24-hour job"
martin@bazley.freeuk.com - Wimbledon, London, England
============== ARM 610 17MB RiscPC 600 ==============
================= RISC OS Rules OK! =================
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 12:35:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Timo Pietilä
was seen to write...

> Twilight wrote:
>> IMO the potion of Death should either be removed or have a different
>> (severe) effect. For instance drain all stats *and* a heavy drain to xp.
>
> How about drain all stats, reduce HP to half, KO and poisoned all at
> once? That would still mean you can be dead in next turn if you have bad
> company.
>
> Potion of detonations should just be poisonous and maybe cause you womit
> like potion of salt water, not cause explosion.
>
> Timo Pietilä
Err...what exactly is the connection between vomiting and a Potion of
Detonations?

Not that I'm trying to open a can of worms on the matter, I hasten to
add. :->
--
- Martin Bazley - "Being me is a 24-hour job"
martin@bazley.freeuk.com - Wimbledon, London, England
============== ARM 610 17MB RiscPC 600 ==============
================= RISC OS Rules OK! =================
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 12:39:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Billy
Bissette was seen to write...

> Being able to break magic items in some kind of explosive fashion
> could be a use for even monster beneficial staves.
Has somebody played Kamband recently?

--
- Martin Bazley - "Being me is a 24-hour job"
martin@bazley.freeuk.com - Wimbledon, London, England
============== ARM 610 17MB RiscPC 600 ==============
================= RISC OS Rules OK! =================
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 12:54:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Andrew Doull
was seen to write...

>
> The other problem with testing is that I'm currently heading in the
> direction of
> adding the ability of the player to be able to target themself. This is great
> from one perspective - in that you can (for instance to verify fire
> resistance)
> hit yourself in head with a flask or torch; however leads to a
> slightly comical
> feeling in the game. Hmm. I need to check this elven armour for high
> resistance. Well - I'll cut my arm for Res. Shards, hit myself in the head for
> Res. Sound, drink this poisonous potion etc.
>
> While I'm all for items having multiple functions, this doesn't feel right.
Sounds great to me.

What on earth is wrong with having a comical touch in your game?
Angband used to be full of those. My personal favourite was the
description for the Mage - "A mage of some power - you can tell by the
size of his hat." In my opinion, a game that attempts to be devoid of
any humour is just sadistic.

My brother shares the same opinion. If you don't believe me then go
to http://www.starfighter.acornarcade.com/ ,click on 'Welcome' and
scroll to the bottom of the page!
--
- Martin Bazley - "Being me is a 24-hour job"
martin@bazley.freeuk.com - Wimbledon, London, England
============== ARM 610 17MB RiscPC 600 ==============
================= RISC OS Rules OK! =================
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 5:56:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Martin Bazley <martin@bazley.freeuk.com> wrote in
news:cbfae8874d.martin@freeuk.com:

> On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Billy
> Bissette was seen to write...
>
>> Being able to break magic items in some kind of explosive fashion
>> could be a use for even monster beneficial staves.
> Has somebody played Kamband recently?

Not for years, actually. The last time I played was around the time
weapons were made to wear down and break with use, and your first weapon
generally broke about five minutes into the game. Which was after items
could come in any random material type. I liked Kam, but it needed a
bit more polish at the time, and then I quit playing any *bands at all.
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 3:59:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Martin Bazley wrote:
> On the fourth moon of the second planet of a dying star, Timo Pietilä
> was seen to write...

>>Potion of detonations should just be poisonous and maybe cause you womit
>>like potion of salt water, not cause explosion.

> Err...what exactly is the connection between vomiting and a Potion of
> Detonations?

Most liquid explosives are poisonous or at least taste really bad. OTOH
they rarely explode if you drink them (unless substance is _really_
unstable)

Timo Pietilä
Anonymous
July 10, 2005 10:40:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

My take on this is the following :

More negative potions should have effects when thrown and hence be
identifiable. Once a potion is thrown and no effect is seen ( you would
see an effect for Death and Detonations )

This could means the statuses of the potion could be
<- Nothing, just found
{Tried throwing} <- Has been thrown already but no effect was
noticed, not yet tried to drink
{Tried drinking} <- Has been drunk already but no effect was noticed,
not tried to throw yet
{Tried} <- Has been drunk and been thrown, no effect was noticed (
Cannot come up with a situation where this could happen, but for the
sake of completeness ... )

This means that iron men should always throw their potion the first
time. Of coursing seeing : 'The blue yeek becomes more experienced'
could be a very frustrating message ;) 

T.
July 10, 2005 11:09:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

konijn_ wrote:

> {Tried} <- Has been drunk and been thrown, no effect was noticed (
> Cannot come up with a situation where this could happen, but for the
> sake of completeness ... )

Slow poison is an example.

> This means that iron men should always throw their potion the first
> time. Of coursing seeing : 'The blue yeek becomes more experienced'
> could be a very frustrating message ;) 

You could really go to town with this one:

'The blue yeek becomes wet' (Water)

'The blue yeek becomes very cute' (Charisma - same effect as player
drinking Pint of Ale ;) 

'The blue yeek tells you to be more careful when reaching for the salt'
(Apple Juice)

Nick.
!