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AMD and Win2k Incompatibility

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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 31, 2001 3:08:14 PM

After reading all the great things on the site here about athlons I built a system and ran into a bit of a shocker. More info can be found at:

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q270/7...


-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Pringle
Sent: January 29, 2001 4:24 PM
To: 'frank.voelkel@tomshardware.com'; 'tom@tomshardware.com'
Subject: Athlon and Win2k Incompatibility


Hi, I recently built a Athlon 1.1gig, Asus A7V, Asus Geforce 2 gts system and I was floored to discover that my 3dmark 2000 score under win2k is only about 2200 compared to over 7000 under windows ME. This is with the latest motherboard, video drivers, patches etc and the system is not overclocked or modified in any way and bios settings are conservative.

Apparently there is some sort of known incompatibility between AMD chips and win2k. I applied the registry patch they provided and even removed all the other cards from my system but I am still seeing hanging and extremely poor d3d performance.

Here is the information on this, I am extremely disappointed and would have considered a pentium 3 if I had known. Most people do not know anything about this I am hoping more exposure will pressure them to come up with a proper fix to this issue.

http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/athlon-duron/amd_win2k_...

Sincerely,

Greg Pringle
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 31, 2001 3:27:27 PM

If it's true, then I'm concerned. I kinda enjoyed Win2K and just assumed my 3d Mark scores were my own fault. Of course, I'm using a T-Bird 900, 256MB PC100 SDRAM and a GeForce DDR and I achieved about 5900 3d Marks. So I'm not sure why you're getting something like 2200...

Charles
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 31, 2001 3:30:07 PM

As far as I am aware you need to change some setup params duriing the Win2k install, I run Win2k on my Athlons (in fact I run it on all of my PC's) and have no problems.

I will try to find a link to this info .......

M

one of the first UK T-Bird users....
Related resources
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 31, 2001 3:30:49 PM

Maybe theres hope for me ! Charles, what motherboard are you using, which version of drivers?

Greg
a b à CPUs
January 31, 2001 4:16:05 PM

I too got a low score when I first installed Win2K on my A7V, but I applied the patches, some drivers and I and now my 3DMark benchmark is about 1% lower than it was on Win98SE.
January 31, 2001 4:45:02 PM

What?? AMD has an incomapatability? OMG!! NFW
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
January 31, 2001 5:59:37 PM

Here's the info from the microsoft site:

The information in this article applies to:

Microsoft Windows 2000 Professional
Microsoft Windows 2000 Server
Microsoft Windows 2000 Advanced Server


SYMPTOMS
A Windows 2000-based computer may stop responding (hang) when you use an Accelerated Graphics Port (AGP) program such as Ziff Davis 3D WinBench 2000. This behavior may occur more frequently depending on the computer's processor, memory, and graphics configuration. This problem is known to occur with Nvidia GeForce 256 and Matrox G400 video adapters on computers with AMD Athlon processors. This issue is not specific to any specific video adapter type.

CAUSE
Memory that is allocated by the video driver is being corrupted.
a b à CPUs
February 1, 2001 12:59:08 PM

There is a patch found on AMD's web site to correct this memory corruption issue, but I don't quite remember the address.
a b à CPUs
February 1, 2001 1:02:42 PM

I want to protect AMD here (and I would protect Intel if it was in the same position), the "incopatibility" issues only come from the Via chipset. The thing that pisses me off is that Via keeps comming out with new chipsets without ever having solved all the issues of the previous ones ... they just suck. Most of the problems you might encounter, only need to apply patches or updat drivers.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 1, 2001 1:42:03 PM

Sounds more like an issue with W2K / Via than AMD. Just like W9X can't handle much over 512Mb RAM, which causes problems that *look* like your video card is screwed.

===
Do unto others before they do unto you...
February 1, 2001 3:16:54 PM

Thank you. I wanted to say the same thing to protect AMD.
The problem is with VIA, not AMD.
How do I know?
I have the exact same problem happening on my Windows 2000 system running on a P3-750 with an AMD chipset mobo from ASUS.
So on my own desk I have proof that it's VIA's fault and not AMD's about the incompatability with Win2K.

The funny thing though is that the only time the errors start to occur is when I'm running MS Visual C++ 6.0 (SPed to death).

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
February 1, 2001 4:17:37 PM

Protecting (or flaming) AMD should not be the issue here. Just because you have experienced some Win2K problems with P3-Via boards (as others also have), doesn't prove that there are no Win2K-AMD(CPU) problems as well. As a matter of fact, MS' and AMD's support sites clearly indicate that there are indeed some Win2K-AMD compatibility problems.

One thing is for sure; Win2K is part of the problem, be it with Via or AMD. In past posts, I have asked TomsHardware to spend more time using their resources to thoroughly investigate this rather serious issue. Instead, article after article, they seem more interested in relating "old news" (e.g., Dual CPU mobos, P4-Rambus, or more meaningless mobo reviews). If TomsHardware doesn't believe this situation is worthy of a full investigation then all they need do is search their own forums for all such reported problems! And if that doeesn't convince them, sooner or later some other site will "scoop" them with the first in-depth article on a subject begging much more understanding!

Just my $.02 worth. ~pvsurfer
February 1, 2001 4:39:37 PM

I think you're relatively clueless as to the subject matter being conversed in this thread.

"Protecting (or flaming) AMD should not be the issue here."

The thread title is, "AMD and Win2k Incompatability". And I am serving to point out that at least SOME of this incompatability that people are blaming on AMD is actually an issue with VIA and occurs on Intel chip systems as well as AMD chip systems.

So at least SOME of the blame for the incompatability should be aimed at VIA, not at AMD. No, it doesn't prove that there are NO issues with AMD. But it does prove that some of them aren't actually AMD's fault. They're VIA's fault. And that IS the whole point of this thread, and thus IS the issue here.

As for your Win2k issues, if you've been so interested in uncovering faults with Win2K I would like to see an itemized list of these issues so that I can then double-check to make sure that my company won't be running into any of those issues on our Win2k machines.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 1, 2001 6:58:58 PM

It clearly says in the knowledge base article that the problem is not motherboard or video card specific, but happens with many of the new generation faster video cards and AMD chips in conjunction with win2k.

Right now I'm stuck with a pc that runs like crap under windows 2k using my partciular hardware. From my point of view there is an overly rosy picture of AMD systems in the Toms Hardware articles. Looks like I am stuck running windows 98 until I upgrade my system in a couple years :( 

Greg
February 1, 2001 7:03:59 PM

Well of course. That's because THG is all about benchmarks. Not about actually using a computer like a normal person in every day life.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
February 1, 2001 8:53:26 PM

Tailslide & slvr phoenix ~

You and I, as well as a good many other AMD-Via-Win2K users, share this problem.

Here is my real-world situation. My wife and I each have our own PC. One consists of a 1GB Athlon on an A7V mobo and the other one a 866MHz P3 on a CUSL2 mobo, all other pieces are the same including Win2K SP1. Before loading Win2K onto both PCs, they had Win98 installed. At that time, the Athlon ran every app we use much faster than the P3. After upgrading to Win2K and both mobos to 512MB (from 256MB) the very same apps now run noticeably slower on the Athlon PC (seems to us as if the P3 box got faster and the Athlon PC got much slower)! BTW, I have downloaded and installed all of the latest drivers, and I even swapped the PC133 SDRAM to eliminate the possibility of a memory problem.

The only "benchmark" here is wifey and me executing the same job (i.e., crunching spreadsheets, database searches, and various image-editing tasks) on each machine concurrently. If that's not real-world exposure of the problem being discussed in this thread, then please excuse me.

Clueless & very frustrated... ~pvsurfer
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 1, 2001 9:39:48 PM

Does ANYONE have the Abit board?

If I knew for sure a motherboard swap would fix it I would lay out the extra cash.

Greg
February 1, 2001 10:35:21 PM

Greg:

This is not meant to mock your dilemma, but in your first post you say "I am extremely disappointed and would have considered a Pentium 3 if I had known" and now that you do know the situation, you are still looking to throw more $$$ into another Athlon KT133 mobo? Snap out of it!

As far as KT133 mobos go, most will tell you it's hard to beat an A7V. Doesn't it makes a lot more sense for you (and pvsurfer) to put WinMe back on your Athlon PC until the AMD-Via-Win2K problems are resolved? Athlons on Win98/Me run like the wind.

After reading more posts in more forums than I can count on this very subject, I decided I'd rather switch than fight. So I converted to the Intel side (and I'm now running Win2K very successfully), which pretty well explains the background for my moniker.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 2, 2001 1:17:56 AM

Not to mock your literacy but my post said "if I was sure it would fix it"
February 2, 2001 1:32:50 AM

Hey, I was making a sincere attempt to help you, not flame you!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 2, 2001 8:06:14 AM

Many of my Athlon boxes at work are running the A7V, all have WIN2K and the Matrox G400. Interestingly, I saw this issue only on one machine. I installed the registry hack downloadable from AMD's web site and the problem was gone. Try reloading the OS from scratch and/or a different video card.
February 2, 2001 10:44:12 AM

Lets give another round of applause for Microsoft and another $hitty operating system that ruins good hardware performance. YEY!!! JERKS!!!!!!!!!!!!

--SR
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 2, 2001 3:29:39 PM

Intel, it would really help to run windows 2000 I am a software developer. Sorry if I took your post the wrong way but switching back to intel or staying with windows 98 are not attractive options for me.

A friend with the same problem told me he fixed it by updating to the latest asus a7v BIOS (1005C) although the readme for it didn't mention anything about fixing this problem. I will give it a try tonite.

Greg
February 2, 2001 5:13:19 PM

Sorry, but it doesn't appear that problem is exclusive to Via Chipsets.

from the AMD Web site

"Microsoft Windows®2000 Patch for AGP Applications on AMD Athlon™ and AMD Duron™ Processors

Description of Issue

An issue has been identified that could result in the corruption of video data shared between AGP graphics adapters and AMD Athlon™ or AMD Duron™ processors when running Microsoft Windows®2000. This issue is independent of system chipset and has been observed when running Ziff-Davis 3D Winbench™2000 and Mad Onion 3DMark™ 2000 in benchmarking mode."

Here's the link.

http://www.amd.com/products/cpg/athlon-duron/amd_win2k_...

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by phsstpok on 02/02/01 02:14 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
February 2, 2001 5:27:30 PM

Greg~ I'm still trying to remedy this. As I said in my prior post in this thread, I have already downloaded and installed ALL of the latest drivers for our 1GHz T-bird A7V PC with Win2K and it still runs slower than our 866MHz P3 CUSL2 PC with Win2K in a side-by-side "shootout"!

While I'm sure that IntelConvert offered his suggestions with the best of intent, now that I invested in Win2K and 512MB, I can't accept reverting back to Win98 on our AMD PC.

We may just have to wait for Microsoft to release SP2 (due out this summer), which will hopefully fix whatever problems are causing this performance degradation.

~pvsurfer
February 2, 2001 8:14:29 PM

I have Win2000 Pro in both of my systems A7V w/ TB700@850MHz and KT7-RAID w/ TB 700@850MHz and not having any problem. This is the first time I'm aware that AMD has a patch for Win2000.
A7V rev. 1005D
KT7-Raid rev. UL
February 2, 2001 10:50:58 PM

Greg:

Apology accepted. I was just trying to tell you that buying a new mobo wouldn't solve the problem and I wanted to lay-out the currently available alternatives, as I see them.

Some "AMD friends" of mine are also experiencing Win2K related problems. Consistent with pvsurfer's comments they have told me that they don't see a heck of a lot of difference after updating drivers/bios and are anxiously awaiting the release of Service Pack 2.

Good luck!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 3, 2001 5:15:25 AM

Ok some improvement, I:

1. flashed the latest bios 1005c (where did you get D?)
2. reset bios to defaults per bios install instructions
3. Set IRQ 5 as reserved legacy (faq on asus site for sblive cards)

The first time I ran 3dmark2000 it exited to desktop after a few tests but after a reboot I got it to run all the way through. My 3dmark scores are up to 2800 from 2200, not quite up to the 7000+ of winME but a bit better.

Ug.

Greg
February 3, 2001 6:55:51 AM

<b>1. flashed the latest bios 1005c (where did you get D?)</b>
Ooops! Sorry, I meant 1005C.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 3, 2001 6:24:26 PM

IT WORKS! I came across something on www.geforcefaq.com that said the setup program for the via drivers may not actually update the drivers in win2k so I went in manually and updated the cpu to agp driver in the device manager.

7100 3dmark score !! Wohooo!

Greg
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 3, 2001 7:01:48 PM

Im a little bit at a loss as to why you would be running Win2k on a gaming machine anyway, it wasent designed for running games, its a business os and good for graphics and animation programmes, as you yourself said, the 3D scores are 1/2 that of Winme or probably even 98, So why not just run those o/s, or create a dual boot sys, If you need Win2k
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 3, 2001 8:33:31 PM

I'm one of those unusual people that uses the same PC for work and games and don't like to reboot everytime I switch tasks.

Greg
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 3, 2001 8:36:12 PM

Also some of my 3d modelling software runs only under windows 2000 and it would really be a pain to model something and then have to reboot to actually view it in 3d.

Greg
February 3, 2001 11:02:42 PM

Greg:
Sounds like really good news! However, I'm confused as to which updates/changes finally did the trick. Would you please relate the specific step-by-step changes that led to the overall improvement?
Thanks, pvsurfer
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 4, 2001 2:02:43 AM

I use games to burn in gaming AND business systems. A recent PIII800/Win2kPRO system (last weekend) runs games faster and easier (load/config/run) than ANY previous Windows. Forsaken even runs ! That's an old game that I thought would never survive the 'no DOS-legacy support' disclaimer.

In a word... "Wintel"

A tragic fact of simplicity, speed, and compatibility (without patches).

Not as fast, but fast enough and running with no glitches.. today !
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 5, 2001 9:15:18 AM

Ok thats cool, I know what its like having to render then change o/s, I did that myself for a while, but I dont get much chance to run games anymore, so Im not concerned about playing them, I ve got a p3 that I run AOE and similar stuff on
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 5, 2001 2:57:04 PM

pvsurfer:

-default install with all drivers updated resulted in winME running perfectly winmark score 7100, but winmark score of 2200 and the computer hanging in win2k when agp mode set to optimal (4x)

-installed asus bios 1005c, computer no longer crashes in win2k when set to optimal, winmark score 2800

-installed microsoft hotfix from http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q261/6...

-installed via 4 in 1 drivers v4.25a from http://www.cyrix.com/drivers/index.htm

-**NOTE** running the setup program for these drivers did not work for me, I had to go into my device manager and click on the "CPU to AGP" system device, select update driver, then browse into the expanded 4 in 1 driver files into the windows 2000 / agp directory.

- winmark score 7100

Greg
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 5, 2001 2:59:06 PM

To be clearer: the 4 in 1 drivers said they installed ok when I ran the setup but they actually did not update the drivers at all until I installed them as described.
!