POSband: my last comp post

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

With the death of my best Brinie so far (CL23 at DL20), I quit. I've
no desire to start yet again, as playing through the first 15 levels
again has zero appeal for me. I just don't find Brinie the Lich to be
particularly entertaining to play.

My final thoughts:

The inability to recharge (bug or not) makes using items a more
expensive process than it should be.

Brinie's playability was for me too dependent on items, and items
themselves are quite random. My best runs all had a key similarity
in that they got useful quest reward weapons and/or found good weapon
drops. The middling Brinies got a piece or two of good armor but never
found a good wieldable weapon. A single long bow of extra shots will
turn an otherwise "nothing" character into a contender. This is even
more true in a comp that encourages diving as you've less shots at
finding weapons, so each "bad" quest reward or monster drop is that
much more painful.

Brinie specifically improves greatly if you are lucky enough to find
a ring of strength. My best Brinie bought a +3 one from the black
market, and it was possibly even more of a difference than the bow of
extra shots. The concept of not having the strength boost is a decent
part of why I've no desire to start again.

Maybe half the Lich powers aren't that useful. Even after nether
bolt gets enough damage dice to look to be worth the cost, you find
(if you are like me) that anything you really want to hit with it is
something that turns out to resist it somewhat. The same thing
happened when I got and tried Death Orb. I ended up relying on
magic missile, powerful bows, and wands. I also never had success
with pets, which always were mauled by any monster groups or uniques
encountered. They mainly because escape cushions, something to slow
a group of monsters while Brinie ran away. Things like slow and
confuse never worked on creatures, nor did brain smash. (At least
not on anything worth brain smashing.)

It must be a feature of Angband and its variants that Raal's Tome of
Destruction be generated if the character is playing a character that
cannot use it. Annoyingly, the 20,000 shop limit max meant it wasn't
enough to buy a stat potion. And immediately afterwards, the game
enacted its revenge with a run of money reducing bad luck. (Complete
mutilation of stats, to the point that Brinie had to cut a dive short.
Only to get more healing and restore stats, then return to the dungeon
for a repeat performance of complete stat mutilation by multiple traps
and monsters.)

Equipment destroying hounds are exceptionally annoying when the game
throws so many at you. Acid is particularly bad here. It is quite
easy to walk into an ochre jelly, which will cost you multiple points
before you can even respond. But even so, ochre jellies at least are
somewhat rare. Water hounds, however, are quite common and appear in
packs. Finding any will often cost you a point of armor, and if you
actually need to stay in their vicinity then you will likely lose most
of it before you can deal with them. (The main exception I can think
of is one at a time in corridor with a powered up bow.) Hounds in
general are annoying because so many appear on the same level. And
equipment destruction is annoying because so many appear to get shots
breathing on you.

It might be because Brinie has to flee so much, but groups in general
seem kind of bad. Teleporting often enough puts you in a situation
nearly as bad as what you left behind. My last death for example went
like this: Slowly attacked by wolf pack. Earth hounds start appearing
with the wolves. Back into corridor and using wand of stinking cloud
repeatedly and then pick off stragglers. Rest to recover both hp and
mp. Orc attacks from other direction. Fight orc. Reach level 23.
Check to see whether it is an orc group or an escorted unique. It is
a unique that is faster than Brinie and does too much damage in a
round to be fightable, at least with escorts alive. Teleport. Before
being blinded, see that Brinie has landed touching a dark elf something
with a group of Light hounds and something else. Now too hurt for
cure serious, too blind for scrolls, without the mana to teleport,
without an escape after innate cure critical (if it even worked), I
could only think to blink and hope she managed to blink to an adjacent
room or even the entry corridor. She landed next to the pack of light
hounds and was kill.

After playing games where the various healing staves were made useful,
it is somewhat annoying to go to a game where they aren't really.

Playable monsters show how the base monster design and distribution
is so centered around the idea of relatively similar character
abilities. The deadly-to-Brinie novice priests being only one example.
It also shows monster AI didn't have monsters learning, as they
certainly kept breathing healing ice and darkness.

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Polarhound <Polarhound@comcast.net> wrote in news:IP-dnfbd7JpcHU_fRVn-
qw@comcast.com:
> Billy Bissette wrote:
>
>> Brinie's playability was for me too dependent on items, and items
>> themselves are quite random. My best runs all had a key similarity
>> in that they got useful quest reward weapons and/or found good weapon
>> drops. The middling Brinies got a piece or two of good armor but
>> never found a good wieldable weapon. A single long bow of extra
>> shots will turn an otherwise "nothing" character into a contender.
>> This is even more true in a comp that encourages diving as you've
>> less shots at finding weapons, so each "bad" quest reward or monster
>> drop is that much more painful.
>
> So just because you can't dive like you do every other variant, the
> game is no good? That's a short sighted view.

That isn't my issue. For one thing, Brinie is a Lich, not a standard
character. For another, Brinie isn't even a standard Lich. So I was
making comments about a specifically rolled character that might not
apply to Liches in general. Even if it did apply to Liches in general,
it might not apply to POSband. And comments were also based on
experience with a particular play style, so even if they did apply in
general, it still might not matter.

As I said, I personally found Brinie the Lich to be a bit too
dependent on items received while playing a relatively fast paced
diving style.

This does though tie into an issue I've stated before about the worth
of quest rewards in POSband, in that any weapons awarded to Brinie for
completing a quest pre-stat gain were generally too heavy to actually
be useful. And by the time she would have raised her strength by some
means, she would have long have had obtained better. And made a
parallel to other variants that tended to give ammo for lower level
quest rewards. And offered a couple of suggestions/requests for
alternatives, that either quest rewards be weighted towards items that
would be useful for a character's current abilities (such as shying
from 15+ lb weapons for a max str 9 character), or even that the
player be allowed to request a general type of item (and they could
choose whether they wanted to gamble on a useful weapon or take a safer
shot on useful armor or go for ranged or whatever the general division
is).


>> It must be a feature of Angband and its variants that Raal's Tome
>> of Destruction be generated if the character is playing a character
>> that cannot use it. Annoyingly, the 20,000 shop limit max meant it
>> wasn't enough to buy a stat potion. And immediately afterwards, the
>> game enacted its revenge with a run of money reducing bad luck.
>> (Complete mutilation of stats, to the point that Brinie had to cut a
>> dive short. Only to get more healing and restore stats, then return
>> to the dungeon for a repeat performance of complete stat mutilation
>> by multiple traps and monsters.)
>
> "WAHHHH!!! MOMMY!!!! POS WON'T LET ME RACK UP THE CASH EASILY TO BUY
> STAT POTS AT 600'!!!!!"
>
> That's precisely what you sound like here.

No, I sound like someone posting yet another occurance of a fairly
early Raal's for a non-magic user character.

The rest was a pre-emptive response to anyone who might think to
mention selling the book would give a major leg up on obtaining a
black market stat potion, and the story of why it didn't for this
specific character. Indeed, I would have expected the same money
draining bad luck without the Raal's (and in that regard the Raal's
was still quite useful), but it makes a nice "Evil RNG" story that
the game would first give me the book and then immediately take back
the money.

You, however, sound like a very aggressive poster who is intent on
misinterpretting my statements to some negative that you can then
insult.

>> Equipment destroying hounds are exceptionally annoying when the
game
>> throws so many at you. Acid is particularly bad here. It is quite
>> easy to walk into an ochre jelly, which will cost you multiple points
>> before you can even respond. But even so, ochre jellies at least are
>> somewhat rare. Water hounds, however, are quite common and appear in
>> packs. Finding any will often cost you a point of armor, and if you
>> actually need to stay in their vicinity then you will likely lose
most
>> of it before you can deal with them. (The main exception I can think
>> of is one at a time in corridor with a powered up bow.) Hounds in
>> general are annoying because so many appear on the same level. And
>> equipment destruction is annoying because so many appear to get shots
>> breathing on you.
>
> So what are you doing actually STANDING in the breath area of so many
> hounds for multiple rounds in the first place? The only reason you
had
> trouble here is because of poor strategy. Lead them one by one around
> corridors to pick them off at your leisure. I've NEVER had a problem
> with any hounds in Pos, no matter what the depth.

Again, I am speaking to the sheer volume encountered. You should
note that I said, for example, in regards to Water hounds that
"will often cost you a point of armor," not "will destroy your armor
while you stand in the middle of the room for several rounds not
moving." Nor did I say the latter when I mentioned the damage done if
you have to stay in their vicinity (and the presence of a powered up
bow wouldn't save your armor if you were standing in the middle of a
group for multiple rounds either.)

If Brinie (again, Brinie in particular) had need to clear a group of
hounds, rather than simply escaping, she will take hits unless she has
something to kill the hounds immediately even in corridors. Magic
missile will take several shots as will melee if you let them get close.
Nether Bolt will run you out of mana before you can deal with a group.
Death Orb might work, but if you are diving then you will be passing
the hound difficulty range by the time you have it, and I'm not sure
how well it will work if you get a couple of packs mixing together.
A powered up bow will work, as then Brinie can kill lone hounds in a
corridor before they breath. A powered up weapon with something like
slay animal might work, but I cannot speak to that as I didn't have one
to use.

>> After playing games where the various healing staves were made
>> useful, it is somewhat annoying to go to a game where they aren't
>> really.
>
> If you like, I can send you the savefiles for both my Water and Magma
> elementals. Both are below 3000', and they can't use potions or
> staves/scrolls at ALL respectively. Both have been put the side or
> now, but are perfectly playable with all of the issues you describe.

Well, you could instead try the Brinie comp and see how well you do
while concerned with turn count. In particular, I would be interested
in seeing a Brinie that survives easily at DL20 without ever having
gotten a good break on a quest weapon or weapon drop, that also hasn't
been power-leveled. Though I'm sure even that is possible with the
right tactics as well as luck. (As I mentioned, even a decent Ring of
Strength is a major turning point for Brinie.)

> Sorry to hear that Pos isn't for you. Guess that's why there are so
> many easier variants that keep getting easier (no-destroy on recharge
> comes to mind here)

No destroy on recharge will, I would guess, be removed. It pretty
much removes any negative to recharging except cost, particularly if
you only recharge when you've emptied an item. On the other hand, I
don't mind things like the NPP shop services that are quite willing to
overcharge to guarantee successful service. (Particularly in the case
of enchantments, which already don't have negatives beyond spending
more money and turns.)

I've also mentioned a few spots where Brinie was a bit easier.
And there is a general implied difference to Brinie's diving potential
in that Liches already have immunities to various things that other
characters would need to find resists to. (And didn't bother to
mention that said immunities can weaken just how useful otherwise
"great" drops can be, such as when you get items with resist cold.)

Nor have I even said that I think POSband should be easier. I do
have particular peeves from playing Brinie specifically, and see a few
things that look like they can use smoothing in general (monster
distribution, quest rewards, and quests themselves for example).

Playing Brinie is actually an interesting challenge itself. The
problem was that repeatedly playing Brinie becomes more an annoyance
than a challenge. Going back to hoping for a lucky break or two on
items, back to magic missiling everything without a decent weapon,
back to not having the strength to carry decent armor or resources,
etc. It was quite fun trying to play at a risky pace, attempting
quests where the first creature alone can kill you, avoiding uniques,
figuring out how to eliminate escorts, etc... It won't be quite as
fun to repeat the same experience with the exact same starting
character multiple times.

Though if I wanted easy, I could apparently also just play a monster
in POSband that can abuse wraithform, from what I've read on this group.

> Personally, my first choice for the comp woul dof been an ironman Fire
> elemental.. But then again, I like a challenge.

I've no idea how challenging that is, as I've not played a fire
elemental. I'm not fond of ironman though. If I want to play ironman,
I'd rather play a game designed for that style rather than Angband.
Ironman tends to exacerbate the luck issue.

I'm more interested in "interesting." That's why I played Zangband
back when Zangband was quite deadly and random and all. Why I played
Kamband back when it was going off on all its own ideas. I was one of
the people posting suggestions for how non-moving monsters could be
viable player characters. Did I like everything about every game I
played? Of course not. Did I occasionally mention them, whether they
(to me) made the game too hard, too easy, or just didn't sit well for
some reason? Of course. Or even if I was curious as to the experiences
others had.