Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Competition 34 Ready

Last response: in Video Games
Share
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 5:45:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Hello All,

Competition 34 is now ready for download from my website. It is a
Dwarven Priest in NPPAngband 0.4.1 submitted by Eddie Grove. This
competition starts at character level 27.

I noticed on the last thread that a Quickband gane was suggested, I'll
hold that thought for the next competition, if someone sends me a
savefile for it I'll use it or I'll create one.

Regards

Tony Holmes

http://www.angband-comp.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

More about : competition ready

July 31, 2005 5:55:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

avh@softalk.ws wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Competition 34 is now ready for download from my website. It is a
> Dwarven Priest in NPPAngband 0.4.1 submitted by Eddie Grove. This
> competition starts at character level 27.
>
> I noticed on the last thread that a Quickband gane was suggested, I'll
> hold that thought for the next competition, if someone sends me a
> savefile for it I'll use it or I'll create one.

OK. Probably a good idea to hold on this as I have some bugfixes to do.
We'll do a savefile at some later date.

A.
July 31, 2005 5:59:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

avh@softalk.ws wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Competition 34 is now ready for download from my website. It is a
> Dwarven Priest in NPPAngband 0.4.1 submitted by Eddie Grove. This
> competition starts at character level 27.

Why choose this particular character, Eddie? Doesn't seem particularly
unusual? (apart from being a bit thick)

A.
Related resources
Anonymous
July 31, 2005 9:37:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Antoine" <mail@guildgame.com> writes:

> avh@softalk.ws wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> Competition 34 is now ready for download from my website. It is a
>> Dwarven Priest in NPPAngband 0.4.1 submitted by Eddie Grove. This
>> competition starts at character level 27.
>
> Why choose this particular character, Eddie? Doesn't seem particularly
> unusual? (apart from being a bit thick)
>
> A.

The comps take too long, IMO. This seemed like a way to address that.
You get to start with the essentials and go from there.

Also, I don't really understand priests. I want to see the winner
dump so I have a yardstick to measure against. This is just a dump
from my current game, but since no one else submitted a comp, I
figured I might as well get some use out of it. I played pretty well
up to the start of the comp, but I cannot judge my skill level since
then.

Cliff keeps posting things that I don't understand. I hope he will
play the comp so I can pick his brain about it.


Change what options you must to be willing to play. That means
anything, but I hope most people will leave autoscum and connected
stairs off since that's what interests me at the moment. Quests are
fine, if you think they are worth the time.

The savefile is from a previous winner, so the monster memory is
decent, but it is new for me for NPP 0.4.1 so it is by no means
perfect.


Eddie
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 3:39:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

avh@softalk.ws wrote in news:1122842718.241384.16880
@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:

> I noticed on the last thread that a Quickband gane was suggested, I'll
> hold that thought for the next competition, if someone sends me a
> savefile for it I'll use it or I'll create one.

Quickband is still a bit too rapid in changes for a regular
competition yet.
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 3:53:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Antoine" <mail@guildgame.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:1122843550.313944.31350@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> avh@softalk.ws wrote:
> > Hello All,
> >
> > Competition 34 is now ready for download from my website. It is a
> > Dwarven Priest in NPPAngband 0.4.1 submitted by Eddie Grove. This
> > competition starts at character level 27.
>
> Why choose this particular character, Eddie? Doesn't seem particularly
> unusual? (apart from being a bit thick)
>

With the already leveled Character and the Speed ring, the luck factor of
this competition is reduced. As the competition is won by the player with
lowest turns, and turns heavily depending on speed, competitions have a high
chance of beeing won by the player with the most lucky early find.
Sure if someone finds Ringil from the first slayn Troll, it's still a big
advantage in this comp...

of course I might be way off, and the intention of this Character was
totally different 0_0

Jeda
> A.
>
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 6:09:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Cliff Stamp <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> writes:

> Are you allowed to try it more than once?

As many times as you like.


Eddie
Anonymous
August 1, 2005 9:05:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:

> I hope he will play the comp so I can pick his brain about it.

Are you allowed to try it more than once? Since the goal is low turn count,
I simply dived to 1650, I went down basically until I found a pit. It was a
minor orc one which I would have cleared except for some bad luck with a
mature green dragon which came into LOS during the fight.

Normally this could be avoided with some investement in turns (check the
level for dangerous monsters to teleport into), but since this is a speed
game I was playing a bit more dangerous without getting too much involved in
the turn count like rarely walking.

I downloaded the savefile and tried it again and this time found Turmil on
the way to the first pit which is a god weapon for a priest for a long time,
only Aule is more powerful early game as you can't melee so it is all about
ability to use OoD.

The game gets fairly easy then and the guy is now at ~1950 and set to cruise
as he also found two !wis. But as noted I died already on a previous attempt
so in a regular game it would be back to startup. Not sure about competition
rules.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 1:31:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Cliff Stamp <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> writes:

>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:
>
> [not understanding priests]

[ beginner advice deleted ]

I think you misunderstood me. I am quite skilled, but usually play
warriors. I'm interested in whether it is possible to win with a
priest in 500K game turns. Or even 600K.

I'm interested in advanced strategies, such as when it is right to use
pointy weapons. Is it necessary and/or sufficient to keep the 325
heal at 0%? Should one carry both the 4th and 7th spellbooks
simultaneously? In NPP, in what order should you spend money on WIS
and CON and dungeon spellbooks?

In my current game, I underestimated the need to do melee damage. I
wish I had kept Haradekket. Are there subtleties in spell vs melee
tradeoffs I'm not aware of? Should I have started the game with more
points in Dex?

Win the game, post your dump, and then I'll know what to ask.
Perhaps a dump every 10 dLevels would be useful.


Eddie
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 1:41:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

> On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:

[not understanding priests]

A priest starts off as a near useless warrior and spellcaster, with no real
damage until OoD and it is a *long* while before you get enough mana to use
that as a primary form of damage, unless you rest a lot. This was changed
awhile ago as now priests get a magic missle spell early (hammer) so you can
play them the same as early mages, but again will run a huge turn count.

There is only one real way to move quickly with a priest early outside of
strong luck (early +wis amulet, or +speed) which is to run them as archers,
use an x-bow and potions of heroism and scrolls of blessing. Even a +8,+8
x-bow with +8,+8 bolts does a decent amount of damage and getting a x4 one
doesn't take a huge amount of luck and you can do ~80 hp's per round.

Your SP's mainly go for healing through CSW and CCW or a few early blasts of
OoD depending on the monster and its offensive abilities (open up a fight
against a unique orc for example, a couple of OoD usually mangles his
escorts). You save any decent bolts for uniques and use these and scrolls
of phase door (lots and lots and lots of them) to get you down to stat gain
along with any useful wands or staves which show up. You don't need R
because you get fire/cold from a spell, acid can be ignored as armor soaks
it and lightening is rare anyway.

Unfortunately this runs a lot of money on the disposable items and thus you
usually have little to no gold if anything turns up, if nice +wis amulet
shows up, then almost everything can go to get it. It is a bit slow until
you get your bow and bolts setup, but then it is *move*. I dive from
1000 to 1500, or basically from free action to 1500, as don't stop
unless a strong feeling comes up as nexus hounds start to come up under
there and if I am going to risk them I at least want to have a chance at a
!wis.

At around 1500 hopefully you have picked up some wis items, as there are
many ways it can turn up, and you start to switch to using more and more OoD
and less and less bolting and pretty much ditch all regular bolts unless you
find a nice missle weapon or might or better. At this point you can start
losing some of your support scrolls and items as your mana might be high
enough for you to use it, which books you find make a huge difference as
well.

You play as OoD priest for a *long* time, I move from 1500 to 2000 fairly
fast, the quickest way is to use teleport and object detection to quicky see
if a level is worth exploring, just bounce around 5-6 times and if not just
continue down. There is usually a pause at ~2000 depending on equipment,
because moving down at +0 speed, with no temp speed, without decent stats,
with one attack per round, and lacking high resists will be difficult.

Lots of guys here will have to be ignored, Gorlim for example bolts heavy
and fast and you will not be able to deal with him by OoD unless you have a
staff of the magi or two and who sees them that early. The guys with evasion
also are pretty much invunerable and you ignore all of them as well.
Anything not evil is hard to kill and anything which can heal is near
impossible.

How you play is really dependend on what you get to this point, if you get a
lot of wis items you can ignore pretty much everything and go down without
resists (have R of course), all you really need is a staff of speed. There
are a lot of things you can't kill but again you could get lucky and find
high dex gloves and a high dex weapon or just a god one like Aule.

By the time you reach 2500 you usually have decent stats and you tend to
play in a couple of ways, if you have a decent weapon then you can melee
guys with ranged attacks using earthquake to fight, and healing often.
Unless they heal it really doesn't matter how much offence you can do, even
a decent weapon is enough.

Some guys are still near impossible to beat at their depth withough extreme
cheeze like piles of glyphs (but these take high turn counts), as their hp's
are just so high that without the right slay and speed you can't damage them
faster than they can heal and you will quickly run out of SP's using heal to
recover from breaths and bolts, plus just powerful melss. So just ignore
them and move on. Once you get destruction you can dive like a maniac and
just use it to go as deep as you want.

As long as you have preserve on, there is nothing stopping you from moving
right down to the bottom and picking your fights there. Bounce around using
teleport and detection and don't hesitate to destruct. There are lots of
deep monsters and uniques that you can take out easy with OoD which will
yield good drops and exp and post little risk. A great Ice Wyrm for example
isn't that dangerous with double resist cold and your ability
to heal at will.

That last method is kind of cheezy, but not nearly as bad as mages with
genocide which is the same thing without risk. This should be at least large
perm exp-loss instead of hp drain. As with anything what you find and when
makes a huge difference, find a heavy x-bow with might/shots early and you
are likely essentially a ranger for the whole game.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
August 2, 2005 7:14:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Eddie Grove wrote:
> Cliff Stamp <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> writes:

> >> On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:

> > [not understanding priests]

> [ beginner advice deleted ]

[snip]

> Win the game, post your dump, and then I'll know what to ask.
> Perhaps a dump every 10 dLevels would be useful.

Oh, and Cliff - while you're at it, could you sort out world peace too?
There's a good chap.

CC
August 2, 2005 7:18:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

avh@softalk.ws wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> Competition 34 is now ready for download from my website. It is a
> Dwarven Priest in NPPAngband 0.4.1 submitted by Eddie Grove. This
> competition starts at character level 27.
>
> I noticed on the last thread that a Quickband gane was suggested, I'll
> hold that thought for the next competition, if someone sends me a
> savefile for it I'll use it or I'll create one.
>
> Regards
>
> Tony Holmes
>
> http://www.angband-comp.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Tony, please zip up save files when you post them to your site. Windows
has terrible problems with extensionless filenames, and cannot download
them correctly. At least, I think that's the problem - I can never d/l
your savefiles when I'm in Windows, yet they work fine in Linux.

CC
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 11:57:14 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

>
> Tony, please zip up save files when you post them to your site. Windows
> has terrible problems with extensionless filenames, and cannot download
> them correctly. At least, I think that's the problem - I can never d/l
> your savefiles when I'm in Windows, yet they work fine in Linux.
>
> CC

When using IE, I usually right-click on the link and select "Save
Target As" from the menu. It may work for other browsers as well.

Tony
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 4:47:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

magnate a écrit :
> avh@softalk.ws wrote:
>
>>Hello All,
>>
>>Competition 34 is now ready for download from my website. It is a
>>Dwarven Priest in NPPAngband 0.4.1 submitted by Eddie Grove. This
>>competition starts at character level 27.
>>
>>I noticed on the last thread that a Quickband gane was suggested, I'll
>>hold that thought for the next competition, if someone sends me a
>>savefile for it I'll use it or I'll create one.
>>
>>Regards
>>
>>Tony Holmes
>>
>>http://www.angband-comp.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
>
>
> Tony, please zip up save files when you post them to your site. Windows
> has terrible problems with extensionless filenames, and cannot download
> them correctly. At least, I think that's the problem - I can never d/l
> your savefiles when I'm in Windows, yet they work fine in Linux.
>
> CC
>

Isn't that a problem with Internet Explorer instead ? You can always get
wget for win32 if you want a reliable download manager :) 
Anonymous
August 2, 2005 9:43:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au> wrote:

>
> "magnate" <chrisc@dbass.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1122977931.968782.293390@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > Tony, please zip up save files when you post them to your site.
> > Windows
> > has terrible problems with extensionless filenames, and cannot
> > download
> > them correctly. At least, I think that's the problem - I can never d/l
> > your savefiles when I'm in Windows, yet they work fine in Linux.
> >
>
> What exactly is the problem? I have no issues with it on Windows.

IIRC, the problem is that the server returns a Content-Type header of
text/plain, which doesn't guarantee that the browser will treat it as
binary content and leave it unchanged. If this is not in Tony's control
(I suspect it isn't), zipping it up could be a good way of making sure
that everyone can download it, whatever browser they use.
--
Antony Sidwell.
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 12:58:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005, Cliff Stamp wrote:

[priest]

> ... for example they can
> ignore the 2000 poison break because they have the resist in a spell, and
> the high wis often allows them to ignore the 1000 free action break

Never give advice based on play a dozen years ago without checking your
memory. Priest's don't have a resist poison spell in NPP, I must have been
thinking of mages. I also had a massive wis 18/150, and got frozen twice by
low level guys (magic mushroom and vampire), so back on the free action ring.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 1:10:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"magnate" <chrisc@dbass.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1122977931.968782.293390@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> avh@softalk.ws wrote:
>> Hello All,
>>
>> Competition 34 is now ready for download from my website. It is a
>> Dwarven Priest in NPPAngband 0.4.1 submitted by Eddie Grove. This
>> competition starts at character level 27.
>>
>> I noticed on the last thread that a Quickband gane was suggested,
>> I'll
>> hold that thought for the next competition, if someone sends me a
>> savefile for it I'll use it or I'll create one.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Tony Holmes
>>
>> http://www.angband-comp.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
>
> Tony, please zip up save files when you post them to your site.
> Windows
> has terrible problems with extensionless filenames, and cannot
> download
> them correctly. At least, I think that's the problem - I can never d/l
> your savefiles when I'm in Windows, yet they work fine in Linux.
>

What exactly is the problem? I have no issues with it on Windows.

--
Glen
L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 3:03:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 21:31:02 -0700, Eddie Grove
<eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:

>Cliff Stamp <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> writes:
>
>>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:
>>
>> [not understanding priests]
>
>[ beginner advice deleted ]
>
>I think you misunderstood me. I am quite skilled, but usually play
>warriors. I'm interested in whether it is possible to win with a
>priest in 500K game turns. Or even 600K.
>
>I'm interested in advanced strategies, such as when it is right to use
>pointy weapons. Is it necessary and/or sufficient to keep the 325
>heal at 0%? Should one carry both the 4th and 7th spellbooks
>simultaneously? In NPP, in what order should you spend money on WIS
>and CON and dungeon spellbooks?
>
>In my current game, I underestimated the need to do melee damage. I
>wish I had kept Haradekket. Are there subtleties in spell vs melee
>tradeoffs I'm not aware of? Should I have started the game with more
>points in Dex?
>
You can't get more than 14, and you would have to get one each of
STR,CON and WIS very low, or two of them mediocre, and you still
need 5 points of DEX to get to 18/10 where it starts to make a
difference.
ATM I'm using taratol, and altough I have 3 attacks with it, I'm
not meleeing very much with it.

--
Wim Benthem
August 3, 2005 9:59:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Antony Sidwell wrote:
> "Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au> wrote:
> > "magnate" <chrisc@dbass.demon.co.uk> wrote in message

> > > Tony, please zip up save files when you post them to your site.

> > What exactly is the problem? I have no issues with it on Windows.

> IIRC, the problem is that the server returns a Content-Type header of
> text/plain, which doesn't guarantee that the browser will treat it as
> binary content and leave it unchanged. If this is not in Tony's control
> (I suspect it isn't), zipping it up could be a good way of making sure
> that everyone can download it, whatever browser they use.

Thanks Antony, that's exactly what I meant. I don't know exactly what
the problem is, but r-clicking from IE and selecting "save as" does NOT
work for me.

CC
Anonymous
August 3, 2005 10:04:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Cliff Stamp <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> writes:

I'm continuing my game, which I (obviously) started before the comp
and I am taking it slow and steady [for me] trying to learn priests.
I've made it past 4000' now.

> a) The Well-balanced Lucerne Hammer 'Turmil' (2d5) (+10,+6) [+8] (+4) {@w0}

The best unpointed weapon I found all game was Totila.
I used some blessed/HA weapons sometimes, but usually
use an unblessed randart 3d7 shortsword.

> d) a Ring of Speed (+7)

And you got additional early speed.

> e) an Amulet of Wisdom (+4)

For some reason, it seemed to take forever to get that.

> h) The Cloak 'Colannon' [1,+15] (+3)

I had nothing better than Thorongil until 3000' at least.

> g) a Holy Book of Prayers [Wrath of God] {@p8}
>
> [insert manical laugh here]

Still haven't seen that.

> s) 13 Arrows of Flame (1d4) (+4,+6) {@f1}
> t) 8 Arrows of Frost (1d4) (+5,+7) {@f2}
> u) 14 Arrows of Slay Animal (1d4) (+8,+10) {@f3}
>
> Running low, hopefully will find enough potions to give decent melee before
> they run out or find more stacks. Had a nice stack of dragon ones which
> allowed quick leveling by killing big D's. Some kill undead evil and acid
> ones would be sweet.

Don't forget about store services. You can brand ammo for less than
1K/arrow if you run out. Randomly fire/cold/poison.

> r) The Mace 'Taratol' (3d4) (+12,+12) {@w0}

Haven't seen that either.


Advice to self -- find better stuff sooner!


Eddie
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 4:45:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Wed, 3 Aug 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:

>> a) The Well-balanced Lucerne Hammer 'Turmil' (2d5) (+10,+6) [+8] (+4) {@w0}
>
> The best unpointed weapon I found all game was Totila.
> I used some blessed/HA weapons sometimes, but usually
> use an unblessed randart 3d7 shortsword.

Until a really long time damage is irrelevant so just +wis counts, +con and
of course speed and resists. Blessed weaponds are usually better than HA
early as you can get better +wis, I do anyway, plus the blessed weapons can
have decent secondary abilities, get one with ESP and you are set.

>> d) a Ring of Speed (+7)
>
> And you got additional early speed.

Yeah, this doesn't make as much difference diving wise as you might think.
Without resistances there are still a lot of things you can't fight, 0% heal
is much more important when as long as you have staves of speed there are
still a lot of things you can fight, more if you are willing to rest a lot
and OoD them.

>> e) an Amulet of Wisdom (+4)
>
> For some reason, it seemed to take forever to get that.

I found a +5 one early once with a priest, that guy doves like a maniac,
ever level gained would push another one with spells gained.

>> g) a Holy Book of Prayers [Wrath of God] {@p8}

This is the most critial item, wrath of god allows any speed of diving you
want.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Anonymous
August 4, 2005 11:22:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Eddie Grove wrote:
> "Antoine" <mail@guildgame.com> writes:
>
> > avh@softalk.ws wrote:
> >> Hello All,
> >>
> >> Competition 34 is now ready for download from my website. It is a
> >> Dwarven Priest in NPPAngband 0.4.1 submitted by Eddie Grove. This
> >> competition starts at character level 27.
> >
> > Why choose this particular character, Eddie? Doesn't seem particularly
> > unusual? (apart from being a bit thick)
> >
> > A.
>
> The comps take too long, IMO. This seemed like a way to address that.
> You get to start with the essentials and go from there.
>
> Also, I don't really understand priests. I want to see the winner
> dump so I have a yardstick to measure against. This is just a dump
> from my current game, but since no one else submitted a comp, I
> figured I might as well get some use out of it. I played pretty well
> up to the start of the comp, but I cannot judge my skill level since
> then.
>
> Cliff keeps posting things that I don't understand. I hope he will
> play the comp so I can pick his brain about it.

I'm enjoying this one- I think there's something to be said for
reasonably straightforward characters, at least some of the time. I
don't normally play pure spellcasters much, as the beginning is a bit
slow for me- this gets around that, and Priests are definitely fun to
play once they get past the initial hump.

I've never played NPP before and I like it so far, although some of the
available services seem a bit dodgy to me- it does seem harder to put
together a boatload of cash than in Vanilla though, so that mediates it
some. It's close enough to V though, that I find myself assuming things
that aren't necessarily true, sometimes to my detriment ;) . The small
levels are murder- lost my first try to one. Fire ants burned all my
recalls, there was no escape from everything else on the level, and I
had yet to acquire ?TeleportLevel.

Also, are some staples (like arrows and ?WoR) a bit less common in
shops in NPP, or is this the RNG messing with me? My current Priest was
dropping nice and quickly (had gone to 1950 in about 20000 additional
turns) when he ran out of WoR (though he bought out what he saw). It
took around 150k turns of town scumming to get 6 new ones, and I am
about to run out again, if the store doesn't restock on my next trip
(I'm going to buy out everything I can before I leave).

I was ready to keep going looking for RPoison (I never seem to find it
until a while after it would have been nice to have it), but after that
I slowed up a bit, as turns were already so high. Wis is up to 18/102,
Con is at 18/62, I can toss in a Ring (currently have +3), and I'm
getting tired of hanging out at 2000'. Would like to get AoWis though.

Best find so far: a troll dropped Godly Insights at around 1300'. Also
found Anarion (but given the Robe of Permanence, the Shield of
Preservation seems better at the moment), and some boots of Free
Action, freeing up a Ring slot- have oDamage(+11) in there right now,
as HP are OK for 2000' and under, but if I drop, Con will go there.
Other than that, nothing special (my previous try had Anguirel, found
on the ground at 1250' or so).

> Change what options you must to be willing to play. That means
> anything, but I hope most people will leave autoscum and connected
> stairs off since that's what interests me at the moment. Quests are
> fine, if you think they are worth the time.

Does that mean I can turn on merge discounts?

> The savefile is from a previous winner, so the monster memory is
> decent, but it is new for me for NPP 0.4.1 so it is by no means
> perfect.

The memory has been really helpful- I've never played NPP before, and
it's nice to not have to learn about the new monsters (the new Ogres
are pretty tough) through trial and error. Does it hold out all the way
to the end?

Tagore Smith
August 5, 2005 12:15:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Tagore Smith wrote:
> The small
> levels are murder

But lots of fun.

> Also, are some staples (like arrows and ?WoR) a bit less common in
> shops in NPP, or is this the RNG messing with me? My current Priest was
> dropping nice and quickly (had gone to 1950 in about 20000 additional
> turns) when he ran out of WoR (though he bought out what he saw). It
> took around 150k turns of town scumming to get 6 new ones, and I am
> about to run out again, if the store doesn't restock on my next trip
> (I'm going to buy out everything I can before I leave).

I had this problem too. Rather than scumming, I just took the stairs
to 1400' and back - detect stairs, teleport if no down shafts nearby,
magic map to get to the shaft quickly, repeat. I'm not sure about the
number of turns vs scumming, but it was certainly less irritating to
play. Still no ?WoR, so did it again for the next quest at 1500'. I
guess 1950' might be getting a bit much, though.

> Does that mean I can turn on merge discounts?

I have.

> The memory has been really helpful- I've never played NPP before, and
> it's nice to not have to learn about the new monsters (the new Ogres
> are pretty tough) through trial and error. Does it hold out all the way
> to the end?

I suspect so - check out the diamond golem :/ 

Nick.
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 12:21:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Eddie Grove wrote:
> Cliff Stamp <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> writes:
>
> >> On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:

> I'm interested in whether it is possible to win with a
> priest in 500K game turns. Or even 600K.
>
> I'm interested in advanced strategies... <snip>

I can't offer anything in the way of advanced strategies for Priests,
as I don't play them much- I'm more of a warrior type, and I doubt that
there is anyone who can give you much in the way of advanced advice for
warrior types.

As for the turn count though... I'm begining to think that it might be
possible to play a very fast game with a priest (in turns, not in
subjective time- the strat would require a lot of calculation in real
world time). My current char is high on turns cause of ?WoR woes, but I
doubt he'll win anyway- I don't really know NPP, but I gather that it
is quite different in the depths. On my next try I might try something
akin to (but less precise than) the strategy Lev Zakrevski used to win
Z so quickly. I'm not sure I have the brain power or the patience for
it, but I think it should be possible to cut some turns off the game
that way.

I don't normally play with turn count foremost in my mind- I'm
interested in fast games from a subjective perspective. My big question
is what's the shortest amount of time you can win in in terms of hours
put in in front of the computer, without being horribly abusive- and
that's a really different ballgame than the turn count measurement.

Tagore Smith
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 1:29:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

I ran the guy down to 3500, no real change in equipment. Playstyle is
basically :

-map level
-check for any interesting items
-teleport to pick them up while finding monsters to fight

I ran out of arrows for awhile, but had a decent stack of wands built up and
augmenting them with OoD lasted until I got a few few more stacks of arrows
and go hunting again for things that were weak to that ammo. Burnt a few
stacks of acid arrows before I realized I should have kept them.

I don't spend much time on a level, and just do the above and then go down,
I have not had to destruct yet, when something gnarly turns up like an AMHD
or Hydra pit I just go down. I have not seen a speed ring or similar on a
level which is dangerous yet which would warrent WoD.

Still getting only one attack per round, dex is under 18, wis is almost
maxed which is kind of funny. Hp's are 514 so I am getting to the point
where I can chance some of the breaths I am not resistant to so more things
are kill able now. Anything with evasion is unkillable. There should be
specific ammo to deal with that.

On a side note, I think I would have been faster sticking with the heavy
x-bow and bolts, as even though the offence was only half of what it is with
the bow (might/shots), the arrows are destroyed really fast which causes me
to depend more on OoD which really slows down gameplay turn wise. How much
would it cost to enchant a normal x-bow up to max in the stores, assuming
you scrolled it up to +8,+8.

I could actually play faster time wise if I keymapped resting as I would
clear more pits with dispel and OoD a lot more monsters, but the game turns
would skyrocket with all the resting. There should be amulets and rings of
*regeneration*, or at least let regeneration stack. This would be one more
attribute to try and juggle. Plus a spell of mediation/concentration which
gives a regeneration boost. One more prep spell you could use.


--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 2:28:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Nick wrote:
> Tagore Smith wrote:
> > The small
> > levels are murder
>
> But lots of fun.
>
> > Also, are some staples (like arrows and ?WoR) a bit less common in
> > shops in NPP, or is this the RNG messing with me? My current Priest was
> > dropping nice and quickly (had gone to 1950 in about 20000 additional
> > turns) when he ran out of WoR (though he bought out what he saw). It
> > took around 150k turns of town scumming to get 6 new ones, and I am
> > about to run out again, if the store doesn't restock on my next trip
> > (I'm going to buy out everything I can before I leave).
>
> I had this problem too. Rather than scumming, I just took the stairs
> to 1400' and back - detect stairs, teleport if no down shafts nearby,
> magic map to get to the shaft quickly, repeat. I'm not sure about the
> number of turns vs scumming, but it was certainly less irritating to
> play. Still no ?WoR, so did it again for the next quest at 1500'. I
> guess 1950' might be getting a bit much, though.

Yep- I'm really tuned to V, and warriors (and some hybrids- when I want
to win I play a HE ranger, which verges on abuse, IMHO, in V 3.0.5) so
I forget that you can move around the dungeon a lot faster in NPP
(shafts make a huge difference)- I also forget that Portal makes
getting to the stairs a lot easier. Portal is interesting, and very
cheap- it's a better spell than tele_self in a lot of ways, but not at
all like phase door.

My intuition, from getting bounced around some levels before I got Wis
high enough to fight much at 2000', is that Portal is partially
calculable- if you find the right spot to cast it you can generally
count on landing in one of a few places, and if you are willing to burn
the mana you should be able to cover the level in just a few game turns
by calculating portal spots- I think it might be a bit too complicated
to calculate well by hand though (a maestro would do it by feel ;) ).

A Portal bot seems like a good idea, and I have been (not so-)seriously
considering writing a bot anyway (if the Wumpus is still considered
fertile ground for intro AI, Angband should be worth a PhD or two). I
need to read the code though. I'm making some assumptions about Portal
that are based only on intuition, and intuition and the RNG do not go
hand in hand.

If I had known it would take 150k turns to get some ?WoR I would have
done what you did- I like my current char, but that took him out of
contention in the comp, I think. I succumbed to the thinking of the
chronic gambler- "well, this time the RNG _has_ to come up with a few
?WoR"... ad (seemingly) infinitum. I considered ditching him and
starting over, actually, Godly Insights or no. But, in the end, I think
Characters should be played to the (bloody) end.

OTOH, I'm not sure that playing at shallower depths would have been
less irritating. It only took me 10 minutes to get the ?WoRs. Those
150k turns took a small fraction of the real-world time the previous
20k did. From a tedium point of view (my main Angband metric) scumming
for the scrolls was the right choice. From a comp point of view, I'm
not so sure- I could have found a couple ?WoRs faster, and gained some
experience, and maybe had a lucky OOD drop in the meantime.

>
> > Does that mean I can turn on merge discounts?
>
> I have.

I fiddled with some of the UI stuff, but merge discounts actually makes
a difference- in some cases a real one. I think I'm past the point
where it matters with this try (most utility comes from books now), but
next try :) ...

> > The memory has been really helpful- I've never played NPP before, and
> > it's nice to not have to learn about the new monsters (the new Ogres
> > are pretty tough) through trial and error. Does it hold out all the way
> > to the end?
>
> I suspect so - check out the diamond golem :/ 

Cool.
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 2:54:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Tagore Smith" <tagore@tagoresmith.com> writes:

> I'm enjoying this one

I'm glad you like it.

> Also, are some staples (like arrows and ?WoR) a bit less common in
> shops in NPP, or is this the RNG messing with me? My current Priest was

The shops are a bit different. I think Jeff upped the number of
items "guaranteed" to be in stock. That means more junk, and
sometimes the junk won't go away and it has the opposite effect of
what was intended.

(1) When you buy something, try to buy out the entire slot
(2) Don't sell items to a store where you want to buy things

So sell that mace of cold to the weapon shop to keep from using
up slots at the temple if you are short WOR.

If you have some extra cash, and there is a slot that can be
bought out cheaply, do so.

>> Change what options you must to be willing to play. That means
>> anything

> Does that mean I can turn on merge discounts?

Yes, of course. I said "anything". That means, well, anything. :) 
I don't know how else to put it.

>> The savefile is from a previous winner, so the monster memory is
>> decent, but it is new for me for NPP 0.4.1 so it is by no means
>> perfect.
>
> The memory has been really helpful- I've never played NPP before, and
> it's nice to not have to learn about the new monsters (the new Ogres
> are pretty tough) through trial and error. Does it hold out all the way
> to the end?

It was from the Kelumen comp character, which was a rogue who tended
to kill with missiles. There were lots of monsters I never meleed, so
their melee attacks will be missing. I probably avoided some of the
Wyrms [and who knows what else] entirely.


Eddie
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 6:10:07 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> writes:

> So sell that mace of cold to the weapon shop to keep from using
> up slots at the temple if you are short WOR.

Oops. The alchemist sells WOR.

I should have said, sell those early unid'ed scrolls/potions to the
temple, not the alchemist.


Eddie
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 5:40:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Thu, 4 Aug 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:

> Basically, you should drop one and
> recharge it on the ground. Also, for the store service, if you have a
> stack of 3 you should take them into the store separately to recharge.
> Be sure not to accidentally merge them before you get them all
> recharged.

Is anyone planning on individual charge stacks? At least in the stores you
should be able to pay more and get them all recharged individually. I just
had to recharge a bunch of drain life wands and it was tedius.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 5:56:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Cliff Stamp wrote:

> Is anyone planning on individual charge stacks?

This seems to me like the right thing. Each wand or stave should be
individually tracked. Would help in lots of ways.

T
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 7:09:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Cliff Stamp <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> writes:

> Update just after hitting 4000'. Found some !dex recently.

> SP 47/321 Level 40 CHR: 17 -3 +2 +2 18
>
> GameTurn 428635 Armor [15,+101] Saving Throw Heroic

That sums up the problem I had diving. If you aim to win in 500K
game turns, you should hope to have cLevel > GameTurns/10000.
I kept getting killed trying to maintain that.

Perhaps 600K GameTurns is a more reasonable goal.

My methodical game [not taking chances I would in a comp] is looking
likely to take over 700K GameTurns. Assuming I survive, of course. :) 


Eddie
Anonymous
August 5, 2005 11:26:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"magnate" <chrisc@dbass.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1123073975.076976.180710@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Antony Sidwell wrote:
>> "Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au> wrote:
>> > "magnate" <chrisc@dbass.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>
>> > > Tony, please zip up save files when you post them to your site.
>
>> > What exactly is the problem? I have no issues with it on
>> > Windows.
>
>> IIRC, the problem is that the server returns a Content-Type header of
>> text/plain, which doesn't guarantee that the browser will treat it as
>> binary content and leave it unchanged. If this is not in Tony's
>> control
>> (I suspect it isn't), zipping it up could be a good way of making
>> sure
>> that everyone can download it, whatever browser they use.
>
> Thanks Antony, that's exactly what I meant. I don't know exactly what
> the problem is, but r-clicking from IE and selecting "save as" does
> NOT
> work for me.

That's odd. I've (just then to make certain) downloaded it correctly
with IE, Firefox and Opera. Perhaps you could try (just for kicks...)
with Firefox?

--
Glen
L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Anonymous
August 6, 2005 3:18:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

I just lost my first attempt to a hydra pit quest which was
just insanely dangerous in a one-screen level. I could kill
most of them in a couple of shots but I couldn't stop them
coming or teleport them away, and they burned my Word of
Recall stack. I also had a 'cave-dwellers' pit quest on an
earlier level which was only a three-screen level, is there
something in the quest code which ensures pits are
super-dangerous or am I just insanely unlucky? I never saw
any other small levels except those two.


As others have said, no Word of recall for long stretches.
Luckily Eddie left a stockpile as I didn't see any for my
first three or four dives. I got *two* sources of ESP -
Thranduil after a quest reward shield, 'tailored'?

I don't have any experience of high-level priests and spent
most of my mana on attack as melee never did any damage to
speak of. I found a Mace twin-branded with acid and fire
but that didn't really help as one blow with that hardly
touched most monsters above the Hound hp level. I also
picked up a Rod of Cold balls which helped a bit. But using
melee and Healing just doesn't seem a viable strategy with
this character.

I did get a Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might as a quest reward
shortly before I died which did a lot more damage, e.g. I was
killing 7-headed hydras with about two shots of Venom-branded
bolts, so I can see the archery approach working....



Re changing options, I had exactly the same problem with this
competition as the last NPP one and I don't understand why it
doesn't affect anyone else or any other variant (apparently).
Every single time I reload the file I have to reset all the
options Eddie mentioned as my user-acn/prf file overrides the
individual savefile settings, and according to the Help files
this is intentional. So just how are you supposed to set up
your system the way you like it? What I expect is to be
able to set defaults but be able to have these overridden by
individual savefiles, not the other way round! I don't want
to have to change my system to default to unconnected stairs
just so I can play the competition....

--
Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

If your feet smell and your nose runs - you're built upside down.
Anonymous
August 6, 2005 3:18:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Harriet Bazley <harriet@bazley.freeuk.com> writes:

> Re changing options, I had exactly the same problem with this
> competition as the last NPP one and I don't understand why it
> doesn't affect anyone else or any other variant (apparently).
> Every single time I reload the file I have to reset all the
> options Eddie mentioned as my user-acn/prf file overrides the
> individual savefile settings, and according to the Help files
> this is intentional. So just how are you supposed to set up
> your system the way you like it? What I expect is to be
> able to set defaults but be able to have these overridden by
> individual savefiles, not the other way round! I don't want
> to have to change my system to default to unconnected stairs
> just so I can play the competition....
>
> --
> Harriet Bazley == Loyaulte me lie ==

If it is a pain, just play with your usual settings. Don't let my
personal idiosyncracies get in the way of your fun.

> If your feet smell and your nose runs - you're built upside down.

Nice sig. :) 


Eddie
Anonymous
August 6, 2005 6:12:03 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:

> Cliff Stamp <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> writes:

>> SP 47/321 Level 40 CHR: 17 -3 +2 +2 18
>>
>> GameTurn 428635 Armor [15,+101] Saving Throw Heroic
>
> That sums up the problem I had diving. If you aim to win in 500K
> game turns, you should hope to have cLevel > GameTurns/10000.
> I kept getting killed trying to maintain that.

Cl has little effect for me, outside of the huge break points (Cl35 for
priests). I tend to largely ignore level and focus on items. I
had huge difficulty moving past 2000' because HP's were ~350 and I had
massive resist holes, any number of items could have solved that but
leveling would have done little.

The guy in the above could be a higher level as he ignored lots of things
which would have power leveled him. I have even left !experience behind on
levels because taking the time to go get them would be better spent looking
for useful items. I can check many levels via enlightnment in that time.
Early on it would have made a huge difference of course, but late
in the game I generally ignore them.

I kill things for items and the experience comes with it I have little doubt
he will be well over Cl45 by the time he hits 4950' and by the time he
finishes scumming for potions and scrolls and likely some decent arrows I
would find it unlikely hs is much less than CL50. I don't even use Rll after
a certain point. I lost a level due to time hounds recently, and it came
back by the time I cleared the next level of a couple of uniques and Wyrms.

He is now only at Cl41, but his equipment has changed massively. He traded
the bow for one with less offence but more resists which allowed a massive
armor swap and now he has 700+ hp's with more speed and finally res poison.
He is still only getting two attacks per round though, and would kill for
some !augmentations, have seen none yet.

> Perhaps 600K GameTurns is a more reasonable goal.

Diving ability is basically (player speed*damage output*hp's) / (monster
damage). The higher this number the less resources you will expend killing
something. Money is the real killer because you are spending so much on
consumables to keep turn count down. You pretty much have to face the fact
that you are not going to be able to buy anything expensive in the shops for
a long time. I think 500k would be possible, but you are going to need to
find someone to raise the value of that number highly. A heavy x-bow of
extra shots would do it easily.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Anonymous
August 6, 2005 9:23:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 02:39:16 -0230, Cliff Stamp wrote:

>[max damage caps]
>
>> At your depth, with your resistance holes and < 400 HP, I strongly
>> suggest that you look them up.
>
>This is cheating from my point of view, I just avoided anything with a
>nonresistable attack until I had over 650 hp's.

Hi Cliff,

In this competition, you are competing against players who have not had
a 10-year break from *band. Who know many things that you have
forgotten, or that have changed while you were away from *band. I don't
think that an attempt to bring your knowledge of the game's details on
par with their's to be cheating. They'll still be ahead of you in terms
of actual experience.

Best, Hugo
--
Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!

(Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)
Anonymous
August 6, 2005 10:26:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005, Hugo Kornelis wrote:

> I don't think that an attempt to bring your knowledge of the game's
> details on par with their's to be cheating.

If everything was fair it would not be as interesting. Level playing fields
make competitions fairly dull. Sometimes the challenge of a handicap is a
positive thing.

> They'll still be ahead of you in terms of actual experience.

Automatic reactions are very likely to kill me, I just have way too much
time playing with out dated monster reactions. For example I recently gave
Feagrath a poke to check his HP's with the most powerful arrow I had and he
responded with a nether ball. No worries, I was at the end of a corridor and
just stepped up out of his LOS.

Can you guess what happened. He hit me with a splash of another ball. That
is a really nice addition to the monster ability. I had the HP's to survive
the two attacks, but barely and not if both of them were two of the better
ones. I know the guys can do this as I have seen it in Quickband but the
many hours playing under the old style produce habits were are hard to
break.

Waldern almost kill me in Sangband on a similar matter because he used to be
a walk over, but his updated hp's in the attacks and side effects were
deadily. The only new ability I don't like is evasion. That doesn't make the
fights any more interesting or challenging, it just makes some things
impossible to kill. Now if it has a use like wounding ammo would ignore it
then that would be cool, as that is useless compared to the brands.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Anonymous
August 6, 2005 10:55:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

> On Fri, 5 Aug 2005, Tagore Smith wrote:

> Are the Haradrim XBows in NPP? Seems like that would be the
> ideal Morgy killer for a Priest.

Yes, I just found a x3 one. My missle power is decent now with average
damage of ~420 for regular x3 slay arrows and ~540 for the seeker ones.
Still no acid brands though or holy might, hoping to find some really high
+to dam (+12 best so far) and of course one of the uber missle weapons.

I should mention I am playing with some REALLY cheezy tactics. There are
some dragon uniques which are easily abused by a priest. All you have to do
is set up some preperation for the fight and let them summon while you just
poke them a bit, killing them is incidental, they are not the goal.

Since you can heal at will you can take a lot more damage than other classes
and thus can afford to get a lot of dragons over and over without having to
go through potion stocks dealing with the attacks while you are waiting for
summons. You also have lots of ways to deal with bad situations with
teleport away, banish evil and of course WoD carry a scroll if something
really unlikely happens.

I just finished such a level and basically farmed Ancient dragons for
potions and such and the Wyrms for artifacts and ammo. There is no need to
fight the difficult ones, just WoD them, I can't fight
Balance/Law/Chaos/Time/Inertia, etc..

I went up a few levels to Cl44 and radically changed equipment in very few
turns. Ideally all I am missing is Gondor outside of the god items (Bard,
Deathwreaker, etc.). I finally got four attacks per round, stats are now
mainly over 18/75, wis is finally maxed.

I have a few remaining resist holes, shards/chaos and nether, the main
problem is lack of missles for the final two fights and really low potions,
1 !*healing* and 1 !life. I forgot about this for awhile and didn't kill
ancient dragons which was stupid.

That isn't going to do it unless WoD doesn't reset Morgoth like it does in
Zangband or I find a few staves of the magi. I ignored shards in vanilla but
it is deadly with high level demons in Zangband. Will find out eventually if
it does the same here.

I would argue that summon monsters should give no exp/drops which would
force more risk in playstyle.Outside of uniques of course which you can't
farm obviously.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 1:21:31 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Hugo Kornelis wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 18:26:03 -0230, Cliff Stamp wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >The only new ability I don't like is evasion. That doesn't make the
> >fights any more interesting or challenging, it just makes some things
> >impossible to kill. Now if it has a use like wounding ammo would ignore it
> >then that would be cool, as that is useless compared to the brands.
>
> Hear, hear!
>
> Jeff, are you reading??

I definitely agree with you on this. Maybe it's playing a fast-droping
missile oriented Priest- I have a hard enough time hitting things with
a bolt anyway. I have some other thoughts about NPP (which I generally
like quite a bit, so far), but I guess I should try to win it at least
once before opining too much (I'm already a bit out on a ledge with
some of my other comments about this comp, given that most of my
knowledge of NPP comes from reading r.g.r.a).

The ability to buy so many things in town seems a bit dodgy. It's not
too significant for the comp, as there isn't time to amass a huge
amount of gold (particularly with such stingy shopkeepers), but in a
medium paced V game you can get a lot of gold early on, particularly if
you have auto-scum on, and if you're willing to spend a lot of turns
you can get huge amounts. Having the dungeon books on sale makes them,
basically, very expensive town books. I guess a *band should support
all styles of play, but the availability of everything important in
town really seems like an invitation to play like the borg.

Tagore Smith
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 2:26:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Tagore Smith" <tagore@tagoresmith.com> writes:

> Having the dungeon books on sale makes them,
> basically, very expensive town books. I guess a *band should support
> all styles of play, but the availability of everything important in
> town really seems like an invitation to play like the borg.

I don't have an opinion either way, but perhaps you should consider my
current game. I am playing the char the comp came from, and I am
(presumably, just killed Sauron) going to win the game before I ever
see ?WrathOfGod. Should I be allowed to buy it when my recall depth
is, say, 4500'? Is that a hack, or simply making up for a vengeful
RNG?

I collected enough cash, maybe at 4000', but decided that I wouldn't buy
it. OTOH, I wouldn't begrudge someone else the opportunity to buy it.


Eddie
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 2:48:20 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Harriet Bazley wrote:
> I just lost my first attempt to a hydra pit quest which was
> just insanely dangerous in a one-screen level. I could kill
> most of them in a couple of shots but I couldn't stop them
> coming or teleport them away, and they burned my Word of
> Recall stack. I also had a 'cave-dwellers' pit quest on an
> earlier level which was only a three-screen level, is there
> something in the quest code which ensures pits are
> super-dangerous or am I just insanely unlucky? I never saw
> any other small levels except those two.

I've seen a fair number of the small levels. I lost a try to one early
on. I got greedy to find out what an item that isn't in V (a dragon
scale shield) was, and underestimated how dangerous those little tiny
levels are. Nowhere to run at all, and my ?WoR got burned...

I'm not taking quests. Seems like they would eat up a lot of turns, for
probably just an ego item. Faster to get stuff in the dungeon.

> As others have said, no Word of recall for long stretches.
> Luckily Eddie left a stockpile as I didn't see any for my
> first three or four dives.

This is turning into a persistent problem for me, and I rarely run out
in V, at least after the first few trips. I always buy out ?WoR until I
have a big stockpile. I had a fairly promising character- not quite as
fast as Cliff's, but pretty close if you take into account the speed
differential, and the ?Wor problems. When I hit 850,000 turns (still at
clvl 32 and < 3000'), mostly used scumming for ?WoR, I decided to
crash-dive to 4000' with a bit more than 400 HP (mostly to learn what I
could about how deep NPP works with a view to the next try- tele-to is
a bear). I actually managed OK for quite a while, and might have
survived if I'd found any Con on the way down, but, since I didn't, the
results were predictable (shades of Sheryl Crow). In the end I was
insta-killed by a big light attack, with close to full HP.

My current try (#4- I'm getting nailed on this one, but I gues that
goes with the attempt to keep turns low in an unfamiliar variant) has
yet to run out of ?WoR, but has been on the edge of doing so for the
whole game- I'm down to 2 again (in town), and I hate recalling into
the 50s with only 1 ?WoR. I am getting very disciplined about avoiding
inventory destroyers though. Detection helps- I'm more afraid of fire
ants than just about anything else at the moment. Ammunition is also a
problem- the stores always have enchanted bolts, and I'd be happy to
buy them if I could stack them reasonably easily, but that's tricky to
arrange. I can't get my hands on enough (+0 +0).

> I got *two* sources of ESP -
> Thranduil after a quest reward shield, 'tailored'?

Ah, that's very nice. I guess it's less important when you have
Detection, but still, ESP has saved me so many times, in so many games.
My current V warrior got Thranduil early, and it's been all roses since
then (early Sting, Arvedui, Caspanion and Amrod also helped- was at or
close to 18/200 Con with a base not too much higher than 18 at one
point- and, earlier, at 18/100 without having found a single !Con- went
from about 500 HP to > 800 in less than 2000 turns, iirc- now close to
1000 at clvl 39 or so).

> I don't have any experience of high-level priests and spent
> most of my mana on attack as melee never did any damage to
> speak of.

I've won V only once with a Priest (and it was out of only a few tries,
most of which were dead by 2500', so I got little other experience),
and it was over a year ago. I had forgotten what some of the spells do,
and I can tell I'm playing sub-optimally 'cause I'm not a Priest player
(or much of a Dwarf player). I need to figure out how to use some of
the spells better (for example, I have a feeling I'm not using
Earthquake as much as I should- I just don't have a feel for it).

OTOH, I think a year of playing a pretty aggressive game, at depths
where warriors have many of the abilities of Priests, through items,
has improved my ability to play a Priest. I'm beginning to understand
why a lot of people think the Dwarf/Priest combo is one of the easiest
to win with (though I still think it's not a patch on HE Rangers in V-
I gather that Rangers are toned down a bit in NPP).

One thing that I'm finding really helpful is that I now have my Stealth
up to superb. My normal play style requires decent Stealth; having it
really helps in playing my kind of game (ESP would also be nice). If
you generally play sneaky characters I recommend seeking out some
sources of Stealth- they're not as highly valued as Speed items (or
high resists, for that matter), but they can be awfully important if
your character lacks innate Stealth.

The difference between Poor and Superb stealth is huge when you are at
depths where you need to pick your fights carefully. It's even bigger,
I think, in NPP where you get those horrible small levels :)  and
tele-to. I had to retreat from the 40s earlier, cause I kept attracting
Adunaphel, and then not being able to get rid of him or fight him- err
but actually he's usually awake anyway, isn't he... well the thought
applies to a number of other things I have had to run from, big dragons
in particular).

> I found a Mace twin-branded with acid and fire
> but that didn't really help as one blow with that hardly
> touched most monsters above the Hound hp level. I also
> picked up a Rod of Cold balls which helped a bit. But using
> melee and Healing just doesn't seem a viable strategy with
> this character.

The Rod will stop doing enough damage to be all that useful, pretty
soon, against big things. The healing is quite useful, in combo with
good enough missiles to soften things up before they can hurt you.
What's your Wis at? Until I had more than 100 mana, and a good missile
attack, I was avoiding most serious fights. Now I can heal a bit
without having to stop to rest, and I'm finding it pretty useful. If I
weren't concerned with turns, it would be outrageously so.

> I did get a Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might as a quest reward
> shortly before I died which did a lot more damage, e.g. I was
> killing 7-headed hydras with about two shots of Venom-branded
> bolts, so I can see the archery approach working....

If you're not concerned with turns, OOD is useful against groups-
trolls start dropping stat potions pretty shallow, as do some of the
new NPP Ogres, and there is little risk in fighting them. If you can
afford the mana, OOD makes them a piece of cake; OOD them once, right
in the middle of the mass, and then start hitting them with missiles-
few will get to you.

I think for the comp char missiles are going to be primary till late in
the game, barring an early Ringil or Thunderfist. If you see a great
bow at the shops, buy it, no matter what you have to do to get it. I
just switched from an LXBow Power (+14 +18) to a HXBow Xtra Might (+10
+ 10) (+1). I need to get it up to +15 dam (which I guess the stores
will do in NPP, for enough cash), but it's still my best reliable
source of damage, even though I'm getting 3 blows with Nimloth now (at
+14 Speed, which multiplies the damage a bit).

Tagore Smith
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 4:35:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 18:26:03 -0230, Cliff Stamp wrote:

(snip)
>The only new ability I don't like is evasion. That doesn't make the
>fights any more interesting or challenging, it just makes some things
>impossible to kill. Now if it has a use like wounding ammo would ignore it
>then that would be cool, as that is useless compared to the brands.

Hear, hear!

Jeff, are you reading??

Best, Hugo
--
Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!

(Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 4:57:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Eddie Grove wrote:
> "Tagore Smith" <tagore@tagoresmith.com> writes:
>
> > Having the dungeon books on sale makes them,
> > basically, very expensive town books. I guess a *band should support
> > all styles of play, but the availability of everything important in
> > town really seems like an invitation to play like the borg.
>
> I don't have an opinion either way, but perhaps you should consider my
> current game.

I'm a bit ambivalent about it myself...

> I am playing the char the comp came from, and I am
> (presumably, just killed Sauron) going to win the game before I ever
> see ?WrathOfGod. Should I be allowed to buy it when my recall depth
> is, say, 4500'? Is that a hack, or simply making up for a vengeful
> RNG?

That's one way to approach it, if you want to level the RNG playing
field- allow the purchase of dungeon books only after achieving a
certain depth. The same principle could be applied to other town buys.

> I collected enough cash, maybe at 4000', but decided that I wouldn't buy
> it. OTOH, I wouldn't begrudge someone else the opportunity to buy it.

Well, when you say begrudge, I think you open a can of worms- I suppose
though, that you are just explicitly doing so, and that I've already
done so implicitly. I don't begrudge anyone the free lives that they
can get playing with cheat death on (or savescumming for that matter,
which is something I did exactly once, early in my *banding career-
doing it took all the pleasure from the game, and I was not foolish
enough to do it twice)- but I don't think they're playing Angband
anymore.

More importantly, I don't think that they are playing a very
interesting game anymore. Angband is only interesting because death is
final; almost everything in the game is tuned to that. If you can
restore at will, as in Final Fantasy (which holds little interest for
me for that reason, among others) or somesuch, why should you bother
with HP vs. big breath calculations, or worry about double moves? I
don't begrudge people free lives if they want them, but I think that
they make Angband a very poor game.

Dungeon books becoming expensive town books is not the only change that
NPP makes in this regard. Almost anything can be bought, regularly and
predictably, in town for enough gold (well, anything big; ?WoR and
unenchanted ammo are an exception, and that is really weird, IMHO- if I
can always buy a dungeon spell book, I really should be able to always
buy ?WoR)- and if there is one thing that is easy to get in Angband, it
is gold.

Poison resist becomes a lot easier if you are willing to settle for
whatever elemental weapon pops up with a poison resist (had one as a
swap for my current guy, but one day it was gone- not sure if it was
destroyed or stolen- pain at these depths though- but then I bought a
copy of Godly Insights :) , which was being very stubborn about not
showing up- fortunately lots of copies of Raals did). Stats can be
raised. *Artifacts* can be bought.

Experiments have been done with cocaine "addicted" rats (I use the
quotes because cocaine is not physically addictive, a significant point
in this context). For a small, predictable hit of blow, they will push
a lever quite a few times. For a large, unpredictable hit, they will
nearly starve themselves to death pushing the lever, even if there is
food in the cage. The difference is remarkable, even when the payout
averages to the same thing over time.

It's not that I begrudge anyone anything, it's that I think that good
game design should aspire to addictiveness (though I hope people do
remember to eat), and that trying to accomodate all tastes can lead to
a "less good" design. I'm biased though; I've only seriously worked in
two fields in my life- commission-only sales, and software development.
Both are Angband-like. (The sales thing should be obvious- the software
thing is only obvious if you've spent time debugging software).

Competitive Angband is another story. If you can level out the RNG, to
some degree, in comps, that is a good thing, IMHO. But there are
outside pressures driving people to dive in competitions; and I really
doubt that you can level things too much without destroying what makes
Angband interesting.

Tagore Smith
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 5:13:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Sorry to double post, but it occurs to me that in my desire to make a
point I might have come across as really negative about NPP- not my
intention at all. On the whole, I really like it. I think it needs some
tuning, and so far I think that V is still better balanced, but there
are a lot of things about NPP I like a great deal. The new Ogres are
great- the game needs a humanoid class between orfc and troll. There
are a lot of things about the UI that are much better than in V. The
new hydras are certainly... interesting :) , if a bit too omnipresent.
It's a really interesting variant- close to V, but with some
significant changes. IMHO, some of them work very well, and some of
them don't, but the effort to explore those ideas is greatly
appreciated.

Tagore Smith
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 8:37:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Sun, 6 Aug 2005, Tagore Smith wrote:

> The ability to buy so many things in town seems a bit dodgy. It's not
> too significant for the comp, as there isn't time to amass a huge
> amount of gold (particularly with such stingy shopkeepers), but in a
> medium paced V game you can get a lot of gold early on, particularly if
> you have auto-scum on, and if you're willing to spend a lot of turns
> you can get huge amounts. Having the dungeon books on sale makes them,
> basically, very expensive town books. I guess a *band should support
> all styles of play, but the availability of everything important in
> town really seems like an invitation to play like the borg.

This doesn't really change much, lots of people still play like this, wait
until they are invincible. Don't leave 1500 before full stats, etc. .

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 8:41:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:

[?WoG]

> I collected enough cash, maybe at 4000', but decided that I wouldn't buy
> it.

Personal restriction? Not using destruction in any form?

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 10:52:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Tagore Smith" <tagore@tagoresmith.com> wrote in message news:1123402384.795285.59460@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Sorry to double post, but it occurs to me that in my desire to make a
> point I might have come across as really negative about NPP- not my
> intention at all. On the whole, I really like it. I think it needs some
> tuning, and so far I think that V is still better balanced, but there
> are a lot of things about NPP I like a great deal. The new Ogres are
> great- the game needs a humanoid class between orfc and troll. There
> are a lot of things about the UI that are much better than in V. The
> new hydras are certainly... interesting :) , if a bit too omnipresent.
> It's a really interesting variant- close to V, but with some
> significant changes. IMHO, some of them work very well, and some of
> them don't, but the effort to explore those ideas is greatly
> appreciated.
>

Thanks all for the feedback. The NPP 0.4.x series has a bunch of new changes that need re-balancing. I know the store services & gold in general definitely need some work. My goal was to make money actually mean something throughout the game, as well as give the players a chance to get some hard-to-find items things besides scumming. As for the spellbooks, it seems like by the time you find those books almost all the spells are useless. In NPP 050 magic is going to be completely re-done, so was I am aiming for should hopefully make more sense then.

--
-Jeff


Author of NPPAngband. Check it out at:
http://members.cox.net/nppangband/

replace the ".spam"s with cox.net to reply
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 2:40:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Cliff Stamp <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> writes:

> On Sat, 6 Aug 2005, Eddie Grove wrote:
>
> [?WoG]
>
>> I collected enough cash, maybe at 4000', but decided that I wouldn't buy
>> it.
>
> Personal restriction? Not using destruction in any form?

It was just a mood I was in. I felt like anthropomorphizing the RNG,
and basically said "OK, if you are challenging me not to use ?Wrath
then I accept the challenge". Since he has no wrath, I now call the
character "Felrossin the Amicable". :) 

I am playing this game to learn about priests, and while ?Wrath would
certainly be useful, I don't think it would help me to learn any
faster. Also, it means that the final fight isn't guaranteed to go my
way, since I have very few scrolls of banishment. I am finding it
adds interest to play with this handicap. If this particular game
were to be a comp submission [I started before the comp did], I might
have bought the book.

I have used one or two scrolls of destruction in emergencies. After I
made the decision, I stopped picking up staves of destruction. I
don't think I used such a staff the entire game, but my memory is
rather untrustworthy.

These days, my personal restrictions are, essentially, nothing that I
consider cheese. That means no [purposeful] cloning or farming. No
hack-and-back and no ASCs. No alter reality. No killing an immobile
monster with splash effects [in other variants no attacking an
immobile monster that does not have reverse LOS]. I stick to these
even in comps. OTOH, I see nothing wrong with browsing the code,
which I believe is one of your personal restrictions.

I allow stone2mud as a way to get from one point to another. Also to
open a path to a monster at a distance. Also to remove the wall under
a monster so I can target it with a spell. Some day, I plan to
eliminate stone2mud entirely in a patch. My cheesiest action [IMO]
has been to dig/stone2mud around rather than through rubble in a
corridor.

###
########.#########
........@:.........
##################


Eddie
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 3:09:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Jeff Greene wrote:

> Thanks all for the feedback. The NPP 0.4.x series has a bunch of new changes
>that need re-balancing. I know the store services & gold in general definitely
>need some work. My goal was to make money actually mean something throughout
>the game, as well as give the players a chance to get some hard-to-find items
>things besides scumming. As for the spellbooks, it seems like by the time you
>find those books almost all the spells are useless. In NPP 050 magic is going
>to be completely re-done, so was I am aiming for should hopefully make more
>sense then.

For the upper-level mage spellbooks, this is probably true. It is not
true for the first two priest spellbooks. And Wrath of God is always
useful, except when Morgoth drops it. I like the way they are
distributed in V where there's a guaranteed depth to find them, not so
much in NPP.
Anonymous
August 7, 2005 8:26:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 6 Aug 2005 21:21:31 -0700, Tagore Smith wrote:

>The ability to buy so many things in town seems a bit dodgy. It's not
>too significant for the comp, as there isn't time to amass a huge
>amount of gold (particularly with such stingy shopkeepers), but in a
>medium paced V game you can get a lot of gold early on, particularly if
>you have auto-scum on, and if you're willing to spend a lot of turns
>you can get huge amounts. Having the dungeon books on sale makes them,
>basically, very expensive town books.

Hi Tagore,

The above comment just shows that it's impossible to please everyone :-)

If I recall correctly, Jeff included the store services in an attempt to
solve two problems:
- Money only matters in the start of the game; after a certain point,
you'll have plenty anyway.
- People hate it when they have to scum 4950' over and over again
because they don't have enough !o*Healing* or !oLife for Morgoth.

I think both are good changes. Especially the latter is one of many
changes that (attempt to) remove the tedium from the game.

You're right about buying dungeon books. In my limited playing time with
NPP, I once bought a dungeon book - and it just didn't give me the
satisfaction I'd have gotten from finding it. (OTOH, scumming 4900'
because you're afraid to challenge Sauron and Morgoth without Kelek is
not exactly fun either.)
BTW, how do you think about availability of dungeon books in the black
market?

And I do agree that it makes no sense that !oHealing and !oLife are
always on sale (though at a price), yet ?oRecall and plain ammo are not.
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that this is probably an unintended
side effect of the other changes Jeff made to the shops (but I don't
know the details of those changes enough to be sure).

Maybe a good change would be to extend the shop services with ordering
items that are normally on sale in the shop: if the alchemy shop has
?oRecall on stock, you can have it for the normal price, but if the
alchemy shop is out of ?oRecall, you can still use the shop service to
order them (i.e. buy them at an increased price - 500% of base price?)
So, if there are no ?oRecall on stock, you can buy them as shop service,
but they'll cost 750 gold each. If the weapon smith is out of arrows,
you can buy them as shop service, but for 5 gold each. Etc.

> I guess a *band should support
>all styles of play, but the availability of everything important in
>town really seems like an invitation to play like the borg.

Those who like to play like the borg will always do so. In NPP, you can
scum relatively deep levels for gold, then buy Kelek's. In V, you can
scum DLvl 80 until you find one. Where's the diff?

Best, Hugo
--
Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!

(Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)
!