Priests using arrows

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Say, this has always bugged me... If priests can't use sharp weapons because
they draw blood, why can they use bows and arrows? Or do arrows really not
draw much blood? I'm not an expert in archery ;-)

 

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On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:10:01 GMT, Edward Kolis <ekolis@cinci.rr.com>
wrote:

>Say, this has always bugged me... If priests can't use sharp weapons because
>they draw blood, why can they use bows and arrows? Or do arrows really not
>draw much blood? I'm not an expert in archery ;-)

Braining someone with a mace spills a lot more blood.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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Edward Kolis wrote:
> Say, this has always bugged me... If priests can't use sharp weapons because
> they draw blood, why can they use bows and arrows? Or do arrows really not
> draw much blood? I'm not an expert in archery ;-)

If you think Priests should not use arrows/bolts, you can play Quickband.

On the other hand, I have seen some very sharp war hammers.

 

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R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:10:01 GMT, Edward Kolis <ekolis@cinci.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Say, this has always bugged me... If priests can't use sharp weapons because
>>they draw blood, why can they use bows and arrows? Or do arrows really not
>>draw much blood? I'm not an expert in archery ;-)
>
> Braining someone with a mace spills a lot more blood.

Maces and other "blunt" weapons in angband are not actually quite so
blunt with exception of certain staves. I think this restriction is
somewhat unlogical.

Lets change that logic in that: Priests are not allowed to use sharp
weapons because they are not allowed to cut _themselves_.

Timo Pietilä

 

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Timo Pietilä wrote:
> R. Dan Henry wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:10:01 GMT, Edward Kolis <ekolis@cinci.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Say, this has always bugged me... If priests can't use sharp weapons
>>> because
>>> they draw blood, why can they use bows and arrows? Or do arrows
>>> really not
>>> draw much blood? I'm not an expert in archery ;-)
>>
>>
>> Braining someone with a mace spills a lot more blood.
>
>
> Maces and other "blunt" weapons in angband are not actually quite so
> blunt with exception of certain staves. I think this restriction is
> somewhat unlogical.
>
> Lets change that logic in that: Priests are not allowed to use sharp
> weapons because they are not allowed to cut _themselves_.
>
> Timo Pietilä
>

I had always assumed that this was an early attempt to maintain game
balance. Is this not the case? If this _is_ the case, it might make
sense to make the restrictions on mages and priests more extreme.
Instead of just reducing the to-hit/to-dam/mana, make them entirely
unwieldable or some such. Mages and priests do seem to get unduly
powerful late game. It'd be great to find ways to balance that out --
not for reasons of "realisticness," but rather game balance.

--
Wil Hunt
Geek in training.
Jack of few trades, master of none.

 

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On 2005-09-01 09:47:16, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Timo_Pietil�?=
<timo.pietila@helsinki.fi> wrote:

> Maces and other "blunt" weapons in angband are not actually quite so
> blunt with exception of certain staves. I think this restriction is
> somewhat unlogical.
>
> Lets change that logic in that: Priests are not allowed to use sharp
> weapons because they are not allowed to cut _themselves_.
>

Or maybe they should be changed into Samurai/Priests that are not allowed to use
"peasant" or "gaijin" weapons, only bugei weapons like the katana, longbow or
yari. ;-)

--
--

Anssi Ramela

anssi.ramela@myy.helia.fi

 

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Ramela wrote.

> On 2005-09-01 09:47:16, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Timo_Pietil�?=
> <timo.pietila@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
> > Maces and other "blunt" weapons in angband are not actually quite so
> > blunt with exception of certain staves. I think this restriction is
> > somewhat unlogical.
> >
> > Lets change that logic in that: Priests are not allowed to use sharp
> > weapons because they are not allowed to cut _themselves_.

Won't that require a decrease in dexterity which may hamper the
use of prayer based spells?

>
> Or maybe they should be changed into Samurai/Priests that are not allowed to use
> "peasant" or "gaijin" weapons, only bugei weapons like the katana, longbow or
> yari. ;-)

If you want a Japanese flavor let the priest and monks learn to use the
hafted weapons and quarterstaffs as well as hand to hand fighting. Those
were the traditional weapons that gave the shogunates trouble when thousands
of monks came out armed to oppose the diminution of their privileges.

Samurai might resign to become priests though they might forswear
anything but self-defense. The staff that they carried could be a
fearsome weapon.


> Anssi Ramela
>
> anssi.ramela@myy.helia.fi

later
bliss -- C O C O A Powered... (at california dot com)

--
bobbie sellers - (Back to Angband) Team *AMIGA*

"It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of cocoa that the thoughts acquire speed,
the thighs acquire girth, the girth become a warning.
It is by theobromine alone I set my mind in motion."
--from Someone else's Dune spoof ripped to my taste.

 

[Antoine]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Juho Schultz wrote:
> Edward Kolis wrote:
> > Say, this has always bugged me... If priests can't use sharp weapons because
> > they draw blood, why can they use bows and arrows? Or do arrows really not
> > draw much blood? I'm not an expert in archery ;-)
>
> If you think Priests should not use arrows/bolts, you can play Quickband.

Where the sharp-weapon bonuses are increased, and extended to bows and
crossbows (but not slings).

I grew up on D&D and it just feels wrong to have priests wandering
round with bows and arrows.

A.

 

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On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:59:55 -0700, Wil Hunt
<XwilOhuntX@XcomOcastX.XnetX> wrote:

>I had always assumed that this was an early attempt to maintain game
>balance. Is this not the case?

Yes, but its game balance effect in Angband is minor to the point of
pointlessness. It was a rather more effective balance in its origin (if
vastly worse for its silliness in an actual RPG), for it is a pure
*D&Dism.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:07:20 +0300, Juho Schultz
<juho.schultz@helsinki.fi> wrote:

>On the other hand, I have seen some very sharp war hammers.

I have never seen a war hammer that wasn't, outside of fantasy artwork.
[1] The "war hammer" is essentially a spike on a stick, only
perpendicular rather than parallel, because that would be a spear.

[1] Thor's hammer was a representation of the thunderbolt and also a
phallic symbol, not something intended to be a practical weapon for a
mortal. I think this symbol is part of where the notion that a hammer
for fighting resembles one for pounding nails comes from.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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In article <df6bm5$r26$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi>,
Timo Pietilä <timo.pietila@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>R. Dan Henry wrote:
>> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 00:10:01 GMT, Edward Kolis <ekolis@cinci.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>>>Say, this has always bugged me... If priests can't use sharp weapons because
>>>they draw blood, why can they use bows and arrows? Or do arrows really not
>>>draw much blood? I'm not an expert in archery ;-)
>>
>> Braining someone with a mace spills a lot more blood.
>
>Maces and other "blunt" weapons in angband are not actually quite so
>blunt with exception of certain staves. I think this restriction is
>somewhat unlogical.
>
>Lets change that logic in that: Priests are not allowed to use sharp
>weapons because they are not allowed to cut _themselves_.

Actually, priests can't use sharp weapons (except for the Lucerne
Hammer) because D&D said they couldn't.
--
Julian Lighton jl8e@fragment.com
/* You are not expected to understand this. */

 

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Wil Hunt wrote:

> unwieldable or some such. Mages and priests do seem to get unduly
> powerful late game. It'd be great to find ways to balance that out --
> not for reasons of "realisticness," but rather game balance.

Actually every class (with possible exception of rogue) gets really
powerful at the end. Ranger is the strongest, not mage or priest.
Warrior is also pretty easy after you have survived the middle-part of
the game. Paladin is also powerful but I find it somehow boring to play.

Ranger is probably only class that can kill Great Hell Wyrm before it
gets a turn.

What bugs me is that mage is still weakling compared to priest. Priest
has almost as powerful attack-spells with lower manacost and LoS effect
and in addition to those priest gets healing and best utility-spells.
Only things priest lacks are haste and genocides.

Timo Pietilä

 

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Cliff Stamp wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, [ISO-8859-15] Timo Pietil� wrote:
>
>> Ranger is probably only class that can kill Great Hell Wyrm before it
>> gets a turn.
>
> Pure offence isn't the whole game

That's true, but high level ranger can also kill double-move insta-kill
monsters that are faster than he is. Especially if they have cold or
fire resistance hole. And Ranger gets nearly all mage spells in top of
that.

My first challenge-game was bookless hobbit ranger. And it turned out to
be easier than warrior, only lack of pseudo-ID hurt at the beginning of
the game.

Next was artifactless bookless hobbit ranger and it _still_ was piece of
cake to play.

>, 0% healing has a tremendous effect on
> gameplay, and 0% WoD even more so. Mages are much worse still though and
> trivial in end game.

Can't say which is easier, they both are. I play priests a lot so I
might have more experience with them than with mages. Rangers I do not
play as long as they get "brand ammo" -spell. That is seriously game
balance breaking feature.

>> What bugs me is that mage is still weakling compared to priest. Priest
>> has almost as powerful attack-spells with lower manacost and LoS
>> effect and in addition to those priest gets healing and best
>> utility-spells. Only things priest lacks are haste and genocides.
>
> Genocide is game breaking powerful, much more so than anything a Priest
> has

IMHO no.

> WoD is close

Mage gets WoD too.

> but genocide turns vaults into chests, and rift is even worse
> than GoI.

GoI was stupidly powerful. Much much worse than anything game has now.
IIRC rift has been changed so that it sometimes teleports monster away
instead of just blinking it. But I agree that it is still very powerful.

Timo Pietilä

 

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"Cliff Stamp" <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> schrieb...

> Genocide is game breaking powerful, much more so than anything a Priest has,
> WoD is close, but genocide turns vaults into chests,

Genocide now is in the last dungeon book. My mage found it around 4800'.
If found early, vaults will contain many uniques, which are unaffected by
Genocide.

> and rift is even worse than GoI.

There were quite a few times when rift teleported the monster next to
my mage. There were many times the monster resisted. GoI was far worse.

Werner.

 

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R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:07:20 +0300, Juho Schultz
> <juho.schultz@helsinki.fi> wrote:
>
>
>>On the other hand, I have seen some very sharp war hammers.
>
>
> I have never seen a war hammer that wasn't, outside of fantasy artwork.
> [1] The "war hammer" is essentially a spike on a stick, only
> perpendicular rather than parallel, because that would be a spear.
>
> [1] Thor's hammer was a representation of the thunderbolt and also a
> phallic symbol, not something intended to be a practical weapon for a
> mortal. I think this symbol is part of where the notion that a hammer
> for fighting resembles one for pounding nails comes from.

Almost all war hammers I have seen had heads with both sharp and blunt ends.
The shape of sharp end varies, I guess it evolved as plate mail evolved.
But I think also the blunt end was used.

War hammers were used (at least in Finland) before metal and Thor were
known. They are called "vasarakirves" (hammer-axe). Biggest difference
to middle-age war hammer is the sharp end: it was wedge instead of cone.
Some people even claim Thor's hammer evolved from this stone-age war hammer.

 

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"Cliff Stamp" <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> schrieb ...

>> If found early, vaults will contain many uniques, which are unaffected by
>> Genocide.

> Doesn't matter, just ignore those ones, rinse and repeat.

In another post, you wrote:

> You don't need to kill anything to get items. It basically is a spell of
> *aquirement* if you are willing to vault scum.

*IF* you are willing to vault scum. I think many people don't.

And without, genocide is just another way to choose your fights.

In fact, unless you got extremely lucky, you won't have the book
until you are powerful enough to handle about everything.
My mage found it at 4800', in the drop of one of the last uniques.

>>> and rift is even worse than GoI.
>>
>> There were quite a few times when rift teleported the monster next to
>> my mage. There were many times the monster resisted. GoI was far worse.
>
> What is the percentage of times that it doesn't put the monster out of LoS.

Out of my head, i'd say 30% resist chance, and 10% chance to land
somewhere else in LoS.

(checks source V 3.0.5)
Resist chance is monster level in 127.
So, for high level monsters, chances are very high that they resist.

Werner.

 

[Antoine]

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Timo Pietilä wrote:
> Cliff Stamp wrote:
> > but genocide turns vaults into chests, and rift is even worse
> > than GoI.
>
> GoI was stupidly powerful. Much much worse than anything game has now.

What did GoI do? Did it make you literally invulnerable?

A.

 

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On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:40:15 +0300, Timo Pietilä wrote:

>Cliff Stamp wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, [UTF-8] Timo Pietilä wrote:
>>
(snip)
>>> IIRC rift has been changed so that it sometimes teleports monster away
>>> instead of just blinking it.
>>
>> Doesn't matter. It is essentially
>>
>> sphere of death : has a small chance of insta kill, teleports away if it
>> fails
>>
>> Unless it has been verfed since I last played it, this is how it
>> essentially works
>
>Apparently it has been verfed, because I don't recall it being that
>powerful. Insta-kill at least is not possible with rift. AFAIK it never
>was (unless monster is weak enough to get killed obviously)

Hi Timo, Cliff,

Here's the description of rift from the spoiler file MAGIC.SPO:

(g) Rift
Mage : Level 35, Mana 30, %Fail 60, Exp 25
Ranger : n/a
Rogue : n/a
Fires a beam that inflicts 40+(level)d7 points of gravity damage on
each monster caught in it, and has a chance to teleport surviving
monsters in the area of effect up to 10 squares away.

The "chance to teleport away" is higher for low-level monsters: monsters
have a (monster level) in 127 chance to resist the teleportation. And
for monsters that breathe gravity, the chance to resist is 100% (and the
damage is reduced to 3/(6+1d6) of the normal damage).

Best, Hugo
--
Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!

(Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)

 

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On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Antoine wrote:

> What did GoI do? Did it make you literally invulnerable?

Yes, and it had a low duration and a high fail rate and could not be recast
to increase duration.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

 

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Cliff Stamp wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, [UTF-8] Timo Pietilä wrote:
>
>> 2 * 4 = 8 (3*4 or 4*3) = 12, 12/8 = 1.5. With brand 36. 36/8 = 4.5.
>>
>> And ranger rarely melees. Missile combat is so much more powerful.
>
> With optimal equipment yeah and by that time damage is never an issue for
> anyone.

It's nice to be able to kill Black Reaver or similar before it moves. I
find damage very important. Even for priest with 0% heals.

> a) The War Hammer 'Homilmach' (9d4) (+16,+19) (+4) (charging)
> b) a Long Bow of Extra Might (x3) (+12,+12) (+1)

> chaos, +3 base speed. The hammer is acid brand, slay demon and undead, which
> are mainly redundant.

That's incredible melee weapon. And bad luck for bow.

>> You don't need to fight, just turn them into porcupines. You don't
>> need to heal much if you don't melee. Pick your fights.
>
> Unless vanilla has changed a lot, melee attacks of high level monsters are
> usually the best option, distance attacks + summoning are the killer
> (Titans and such being the exception).

You can use bow at melee-range in vanilla. Also distance attacks are not
any less in melee range, there are just additional melee attacks instead
of movement. Summons are problem with missile tactics. They get into
way, so summoners are harder than rest. If it isn't weakling or unique I
usually just teleport those away.

Timo Pietilä

 

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Cliff Stamp wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Antoine wrote:
>
>> What did GoI do? Did it make you literally invulnerable?
>
> Yes, and it had a low duration and a high fail rate and could not be recast
> to increase duration.

High enough duration to last almost all major battles. When it worns off
you just blink out of the LoS and cast it again. When you got it you had
basically won the game. Morgoth being wall-eater and ruining dungeon
structure was a little bit harder than rest of the uniques, but not much.

Timo Pietilä

 

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Cliff Stamp wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2005, [iso-8859-15] Werner B�r wrote:
>
>> If found early, vaults will contain many uniques, which are unaffected by
>> Genocide.
>
>
> Doesn't matter, just ignore those ones, rinse and repeat.

You'll lose a lot of artefacts doing that - OK you can win without any
artefacts but if you are going to scum for things it seems good if you
can actually get them.


>>> and rift is even worse than GoI.
>>
>>
>> There were quite a few times when rift teleported the monster next to
>> my mage. There were many times the monster resisted. GoI was far worse.
>
>
> What is the percentage of times that it doesn't put the monster out of LoS.
>

Just needs to be once to put you in trouble if it is a nasty unique.

--
To contact me take a davidhowdon and add a @yahoo.co.uk to the end.

 

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On Sun, 4 Sep 2005, David Howdon wrote:

[vault scumming by genocide]

> You'll lose a lot of artefacts doing that - OK you can win without any
> artefacts but if you are going to scum for things it seems good if you can
> actually get them.

Preserve handles that as does WoD.

[Rift]

>> What is the percentage of times that it doesn't put the monster out of
>> LoS.
>
> Just needs to be once to put you in trouble if it is a nasty unique.

Compare it to not using Rift. All you need is the proper setup (perm walls)
and it is very likely they get blinked out of LoS. It is resistable though
at a fairly high chance for high level monsters, so it isn't nearly as
powerful as it used to be.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

 

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Timo Pietilä <timo.pietila@helsinki.fi> wrote in
news:df6bm5$r26$1@oravannahka.helsinki.fi:

> Maces and other "blunt" weapons in angband are not actually quite so
> blunt with exception of certain staves. I think this restriction is
> somewhat unlogical.

The whole restriction itself is somewhat illogical.

Priests weren't supposed to spill blood, so they didn't use edged
weapons. Staves and the like only marginally follow the letter of the
idea, and outright break the spirit. Fantasy books and games keep
both the restriction and the workaround as a partial means of
balancing their version of priestly magic, often regardless of whatever
religion the priests actually support. (Though generic "good" priestly
religions are probably the general idea themselves.)

When you get into the detail that a completely smooth mace will still
cave in a skull, you are only hitting the problem with the initial
workaround itself.

 

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Cliff Stamp wrote:

> Plus this is all late game, it isn't like Rangers start off with the
> ability to do ~1000 hp per round. Any class/race can become uberpowerful if you
> play long enough, reach CL50, max stats, fill resistances, base +20 speed, find
> god weapon, etc. . .

Ranger is pretty good after clvl 20 and getting there is not hard. Not
only because of fighting skills but that makes the difference between
ranger and mage. Ranger gets nearly all mage spells, which means that he
can cast spells like haste and heroism. That has a huge impact in
easyness of the game. Consider how easy it is to play warrior early into
game. Now _add_ to that ability to cast a lot of spells and later extra
shots with bow.

And that ability to shoot extra shots gives him ability to deal with
monsters that are faster than he is which is really nice in mid-game.

Later ranger gets brand ammo which basically triples his missile
fighting. This basically makes him able to deliver nine times as much
damage to monsters than any other class when using single shot x3
missile weapons.

And of course this is late game. It is late game when game gets hard. Up
to stat-gain things are easy. And for normal player getting clvl 50 way
before he is ready to face Morgoth is normal. It is fast divers like you
and Eddie who get hurt by XP penalty Ranger has.

Priest maybe easiest early, but ranger is most powerful later.

IMO Ranger should not be able to cast nearly as much spells as it does
now. I have suggested this before, but one more time is not going to
hurt anybody: Swap rogue and ranger spell lists (except detection
spells). Remove brand ammo spell from game entirely.

More radical suggestion: Make ranger prayer-based.

Timo Pietilä