1st Edition Weapon Stats

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat an
opponent's shield. A successful sunder (Sunder, PHB) by a light pilum renders
the target shield useless regardless of how many hit points damage it Once the
shield has been pierced, the pilum shaft bends, making safe extraction
impossible during combat. Such an encumbered shield is effectively useless
for defense.
Cost: 2 gp
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: x2
Range Increment: 30 ft.
Weight: 2 lb.
Type: Piercing

A heavy pilum is a polearm with a handguard, and possesses a thicker
shaft than a light pilum. It is designed to break on impact, preventing it
from being used against the original attacker. A heavy pilum has reach, so
it can strike opponents 10 ft. away, but it cannot be used against an adjacent
foe. If a ready action is used to set a heavy pilum against a charge, it deals
double damage on a successful hit against a charging character.
A heavy pilum can be thrown short distances, but since it is not designed
for ranged attacks it receives a -4 penalty on attack rolls when used as such.
Cost: 4 gp
Dmg (S): 1d6
Dmg (M): 1d8
Critical: x3
Range Increment: 5 ft.
Weight: 9 lb.
Type: Piercing

A mantlet is a detached fortification, a wooden 7 ft. by 8 ft. wall
constructed on a wheeled platform that can be rolled forward to protect troops
from attack by archers on the castle walls. They are often employed to protect
siege engineers while they work. Archers can shoot from a mantlet through
arrow slits and maintain cover.
Cost: 25 gp
Shield Bonus: 100% cover (pushing a mantlet provides 50% cover)
Weight: 200 lb.
8 answers Last reply
More about edition weapon stats
  1. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

    "Joshua Mayfield" <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote in message
    news:11674130160.48699.Alexandria.Patrick@go.com...
    > The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat an
    > opponent's shield. A successful sunder (Sunder, PHB) by a light pilum
    > renders
    > the target shield useless regardless of how many hit points damage it Once
    > the
    > shield has been pierced, the pilum shaft bends, making safe extraction
    > impossible during combat. Such an encumbered shield is effectively useless
    > for defense.
    snip

    Hi,
    Why would a light pilum require a sunder to work? It is specificly
    designed to bend, as you correctly stated, upon a successful attack. If
    anything it is actually easier to hit a shield than the person holding it
    since the main function is to block/deflect incoming attacks. So I can see
    no reason to make it more difficult than a standard attack roll. The only
    situation I could see requiring a sunder is if the defender was specificly
    familiar with pilums and how they screwed his shield. After all, he would
    have to move his shield and his body. Then the defender has a tough choice;
    save his shield, save his chest, or try and get the hell outta the way.
    Maybe you could angle your shield to deflect more so the pilum's bite would
    be insufficient, dunno really. Never recieved a real one and hope to hell
    not to. Not nit-picking here, just curious as to your reasons.

    Thomas
  2. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

    "Keith Davies" <kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org> wrote in message
    news:slrncnevv8.3b2.kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org...
    > On 2004-10-21, Joshua Mayfield <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote:

    > Okay, basically just a javelin with a bendy tip, that can disable a
    > shield, for only twice the price of a normal javelin. Sunder normally
    > draws an Attack of Opportunity, but since this is usually done before
    > closing with the enemy, that's a null cost.
    >
    > In short, it gives you a nice ability with a simple weapon, at low cost
    > (opportunity and equipment). This is too close to being a must-have for
    > anyone who wants to regularly throw spears.

    One thing though, the pilum is essentially ammunition. A one shot item.

    > I'd consider the following:
    >
    > The light pilum is a javelin designed to defeat an opponent's shield
    > by bending after hitting it, weighing it down. On a successful attack
    > against the shield that overcomes the shield's hardness (see the
    > Sunder action), the pilum will be stuck in the shield and render it
    > useless. Removing the pilum is a full-round action that provokes an
    > attack of opportunity.

    Two things about invoking the Sunder mechanism makes me uneasy. First its
    a ranged attack and that sets quite a precendent. Second, it is a piercing
    weapon. These could be set aside for the sake of ease I suppose.

    > I'd also consider these rules:
    >
    > . A Reflex check to prevent the pilum from sticking (it's fairly hard
    > to actually penetrate a shield... on purpose);
    > . A Strength check (DC 10+damage to shield) to remove the pilum;

    Reasonable.

    > > A heavy pilum is a polearm with a handguard, and possesses a
    > > thicker shaft than a light pilum. It is designed to break on impact,
    > > preventing it from being used against the original attacker. A heavy
    > > pilum has reach, so it can strike opponents 10 ft. away, but it cannot
    > > be used against an adjacent foe. If a ready action is used to set a
    > > heavy pilum against a charge, it deals double damage on a successful
    > > hit against a charging character.
    > > A heavy pilum can be thrown short distances, but since it is not
    > > designed for ranged attacks it receives a -4 penalty on attack rolls
    > > when used as such.
    > >
    > > Cost: 4 gp
    > > Dmg (S): 1d6
    > > Dmg (M): 1d8
    > > Critical: x3
    > > Range Increment: 5 ft.
    > > Weight: 9 lb.
    > > Type: Piercing
    >
    > A 9-pound weapon that breaks as soon as it hits an opponent strikes me
    > as a singularly stupid weapon that would be Darwinized in short order.
    >
    > I'm not denigrating your implementation, but questioning the weapon
    > itself.

    Historically there is scant archaeological evidence to suggest that there
    were multiple weight pilum with the snap on hit capacity. The idea, IIRC,
    comes from Polybius writing about the Legions at the time of the first
    Punic War and possibly the mixing of terms by contemporary authors.

    In practice a broken or bent Pilum could be quite easily repaired (it was
    a matter of straightening the thin metal shaft and replacing a wooden
    dowel) so perhaps their should be a Craft check required to quickly and
    cheaply restore the weapon to working order.

    > The stats above (except cost and range increment) are those of the long
    > spear -- a pike, in other words, but you can throw it a short distance
    > (poorly) and it'll break.
    >
    > A weapon like this -- one meant to hold off charges by *cavalry*, that
    > breaks on impact, is a really, really bad idea. Giving it a lower cost
    > than a pike is a little odd in that it's harder to make than a real pike
    > (longspear). OTOH, it certainly isn't *worth* as much as a real pike.

    Caesar actually ordered the weapon to be used in such a way during the
    civil war. Remember that cavalry don't actually charge into spike hedges,
    they veer away from them. If you have to actually use the weapon then they
    are in your formation, something has gone wrong and you will only have one
    chance to use it anyway.

    > > A mantlet is a detached fortification, a wooden 7 ft. by 8 ft.
    > > wall constructed on a wheeled platform that can be rolled forward to
    > > protect troops from attack by archers on the castle walls. They are
    > > often employed to protect siege engineers while they work. Archers can
    > > shoot from a mantlet through arrow slits and maintain cover.
    > >
    > > Cost: 25 gp
    > > Shield Bonus: 100% cover (pushing a mantlet provides 50% cover)
    > > Weight: 200 lb.
    >
    > Basically a cart with a tower shield attached? A little light, in terms
    > of both cost and weight. It should weigh more than a cart, I think, and
    > cost at least as much as a tower shield. If you went with something
    > like 40 gp and 225 pounds I think it'd be about right. A Tower shield
    > is 30 gp and 45#, cart is 15 gp and 200#... you can save some weight
    > because the 'cart' doesn't need sides and the like, but you'd certainly
    > want some reinforcement behind the shield.

    You could make the case. The cost should perhaps be increased to 40 but
    the weight is neither here nor there.
  3. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

    Joshua Mayfield se kaznjava streljanjem..

    > The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat an
    > opponent's shield. A successful sunder (Sunder, PHB) by a light pilum renders

    ... and so on..
    this is great..
    in my adventure i'm about to put some principes and velites as an
    encounter, so i had to improvise them.. but adventure is in 3.5.. this is
    how did i imagine it..

    pilum (light) is just like javelin.. 1d6 + strength, standard reach.. but
    i'm not using sunder attack, but this formula..
    if i'm trying to hit a PC.. first i have to hit DC 10.. after that comes
    it's DEX and misc deflection modifiers.. after that comes shield.. if i
    hit AC between 10+dex+def and 10+dex+def+shld.. it's a hit in the
    shield..
    sounds complicate, but.. it's the way i see it
    Also.. i made some experiments with very legionars.. if there is another
    leg. 5ft adjenced from him, it' grants him +1 AC ant +1 ToHit competence
    bonus, and +2vs fear.
    What do you think about it?

    --
    nista od potpisa danas..
    apatiner@yahoo.nJet
    http://force.on.neobee.net
  4. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

    "Keith Davies" <kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org> wrote in message
    news:slrncnfee6.3b2.kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org...
    > On 2004-10-21, JB <jb70@talk21.com> wrote:
    > >
    > > "Keith Davies" <kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org> wrote in message
    > > news:slrncnevv8.3b2.kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org...
    > >> On 2004-10-21, Joshua Mayfield <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Okay, basically just a javelin with a bendy tip, that can disable a
    > >> shield, for only twice the price of a normal javelin. Sunder
    normally
    > >> draws an Attack of Opportunity, but since this is usually done before
    > >> closing with the enemy, that's a null cost.
    > >>
    > >> In short, it gives you a nice ability with a simple weapon, at low
    cost
    > >> (opportunity and equipment). This is too close to being a must-have
    for
    > >> anyone who wants to regularly throw spears.
    > >
    > > One thing though, the pilum is essentially ammunition. A one shot
    item.
    >
    > Big ammunition, then. He's using the stats for a javelin, giving it a
    > nifty ability, and then charging only a little bit more. I think that,
    > given what it can do, it's a little cheap at the posted price.

    I don't disagree but for the purposes of enchantment and what not it's a
    pretty big downside. You could quite easily require a significant price
    boost to justify the complexity of the design. If it were up to me I'd
    introduce a repair method and boost the price significantly.

    > > Two things about invoking the Sunder mechanism makes me uneasy. First
    > > its a ranged attack and that sets quite a precendent. Second, it is a
    > > piercing weapon. These could be set aside for the sake of ease I
    > > suppose.
    >
    > That's why I changed the wording -- 'attack against the shield, refer to
    > the Sunder action [for targeting information]'. It's *not* a Sunder
    > attack, precisely, it's an attack against a shield.

    Cool.

    > >> A 9-pound weapon that breaks as soon as it hits an opponent strikes
    me
    > >> as a singularly stupid weapon that would be Darwinized in short
    order.
    > >>
    > >> I'm not denigrating your implementation, but questioning the weapon
    > >> itself.
    > >
    > > Historically there is scant archaeological evidence to suggest that
    > > there were multiple weight pilum with the snap on hit capacity. The
    > > idea, IIRC, comes from Polybius writing about the Legions at the time
    > > of the first Punic War and possibly the mixing of terms by
    > > contemporary authors.
    > >
    > > In practice a broken or bent Pilum could be quite easily repaired (it
    > > was a matter of straightening the thin metal shaft and replacing a
    > > wooden dowel) so perhaps their should be a Craft check required to
    > > quickly and cheaply restore the weapon to working order.
    >
    > *bend* *insert stick* *break stick* could *conceivably* be sufficient.
    > I don't know that it would be, but it could be enough if you really need
    > the pilum back in action.

    That sounds more like a cheap and chearful way that could result in
    accuracy penalties.

    The metal shaft would eventually snap if you bent it cold.

    > >> The stats above (except cost and range increment) are those of the
    long
    > >> spear -- a pike, in other words, but you can throw it a short
    distance
    > >> (poorly) and it'll break.
    > >>
    > >> A weapon like this -- one meant to hold off charges by *cavalry*,
    that
    > >> breaks on impact, is a really, really bad idea. Giving it a lower
    cost
    > >> than a pike is a little odd in that it's harder to make than a real
    pike
    > >> (longspear). OTOH, it certainly isn't *worth* as much as a real
    pike.
    > >
    > > Caesar actually ordered the weapon to be used in such a way during the
    > > civil war. Remember that cavalry don't actually charge into spike
    hedges,
    > > they veer away from them. If you have to actually use the weapon then
    they
    > > are in your formation, something has gone wrong and you will only have
    one
    > > chance to use it anyway.
    >
    > I wouldn't want to rely on it in the general case. I can see using it
    > like that on occasion, but not usually.

    No it was an atypical use but it was the manoeuvre traditionally thought
    to be decisive in the battle.

    > And yes, it's bad if the cavalry ignore the pikes (difficult to do,
    > convincing a horse to charge onto a pike), even if you *do* end up
    > killing many of the horses and cavalry.

    Quite a lot of people believe that you *can't* make a horse do that
    against a *properly* formed hedge and breaches only occur through other
    circumstances (a failure of formation somehow). The same principle applies
    to the bayonet squares in the gunpowder age.

    When Caesar formed his men up as makeshift pikemen their primary role was
    to act as a rallying point for allied cavalry then counter attack the
    disordered enemy horse.

    > Even against infantry, I don't think I'd want to be on the other end of
    > a stick designed to break. Sounds a little dangerous, even given the
    > circumstances.

    Pilum were always supposed to be thrown. The penalty is possibly the OP's
    method of balancing the increased damage.

    Personally I'd just do away with the heavy version altogether.
  5. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

    In rec.games.frp.dnd Joshua Mayfield <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote:

    : The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat an
    : opponent's shield.
    :
    : A heavy pilum is a polearm with a handguard, and possesses a thicker
    : shaft than a light pilum.
    :
    : A mantlet is a detached fortification, a wooden 7 ft. by 8 ft. wall
    : constructed on a wheeled platform that can be rolled forward to protect
    : troops from attack by archers on the castle walls. They are often employed
    : to protect siege engineers while they work.

    Are these real? I never heard of them before? What is their historical context?

    --
    ISLAM: Winning the hearts and minds of the world, one bomb at a time.
  6. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

    Ubiquitous wrote:

    >In rec.games.frp.dnd Joshua Mayfield <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote:
    >
    >: The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat an
    >: opponent's shield.
    >:
    >: A heavy pilum is a polearm with a handguard, and possesses a thicker
    >: shaft than a light pilum.
    >:
    >: A mantlet is a detached fortification, a wooden 7 ft. by 8 ft. wall
    >: constructed on a wheeled platform that can be rolled forward to protect
    >: troops from attack by archers on the castle walls. They are often employed
    >: to protect siege engineers while they work.
    >
    >Are these real? I never heard of them before? What is their historical context?
    >
    >
    >
    I know that I've read of the two different pilum versions. Though I
    don't remeber the reference. The mantlet makes perfect sense as well. I
    know I'd use one if it were around. Or invent one if it weren't.
    Anything to keep those missile weapons from landing on my head...

    --
    Tetsubo
    My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
    --------------------------------------
    If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
    -- Anatole France
  7. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

    In rec.games.frp.dnd Tetsubo <tetsubo@comcast.net> wrote:
    : Ubiquitous wrote:

    :>Are these real? I never heard of them before? What is their historical
    :>context?
    :>
    : I know that I've read of the two different pilum versions. Though I
    : don't remeber the reference. The mantlet makes perfect sense as well. I
    : know I'd use one if it were around. Or invent one if it weren't.
    : Anything to keep those missile weapons from landing on my head...

    Apparently they were listed in Dragon magazine once, if my sources are
    correct; I don't care enough to check.
  8. Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

    "Tetsubo" <tetsubo@comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:BsudnVHFfqcXWuDcRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
    > Ubiquitous wrote:
    >
    > >In rec.games.frp.dnd Joshua Mayfield <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote:
    > >
    > >: The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat
    an
    > >: opponent's shield.
    > >:
    > >: A heavy pilum is a polearm with a handguard, and possesses a
    thicker
    > >: shaft than a light pilum.
    > >:
    > >: A mantlet is a detached fortification, a wooden 7 ft. by 8 ft.
    wall
    > >: constructed on a wheeled platform that can be rolled forward to
    protect
    > >: troops from attack by archers on the castle walls. They are often
    employed
    > >: to protect siege engineers while they work.
    > >
    > >Are these real? I never heard of them before? What is their historical
    context?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > I know that I've read of the two different pilum versions.

    Polybius is the only contemporary or near contemporary source who
    describes two weights of Pilum. Most scholars agree that by the time the
    "snap" was added to the "bend" feature they had been standardized to one
    size. Around about the time of Gaius Marius.

    > Though I
    > don't remeber the reference. The mantlet makes perfect sense as well. I
    > know I'd use one if it were around.

    Yes. Described by many authors across a wide time scale.

    > Or invent one if it weren't.
    > Anything to keep those missile weapons from landing on my head...
    >
    > --
    > Tetsubo

    You could always perform the Testudo, Tetsubo.
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