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1st Edition Weapon Stats

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Anonymous
October 21, 2004 12:49:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat an
opponent's shield. A successful sunder (Sunder, PHB) by a light pilum renders
the target shield useless regardless of how many hit points damage it Once the
shield has been pierced, the pilum shaft bends, making safe extraction
impossible during combat. Such an encumbered shield is effectively useless
for defense.
Cost: 2 gp
Dmg (S): 1d4
Dmg (M): 1d6
Critical: x2
Range Increment: 30 ft.
Weight: 2 lb.
Type: Piercing

A heavy pilum is a polearm with a handguard, and possesses a thicker
shaft than a light pilum. It is designed to break on impact, preventing it
from being used against the original attacker. A heavy pilum has reach, so
it can strike opponents 10 ft. away, but it cannot be used against an adjacent
foe. If a ready action is used to set a heavy pilum against a charge, it deals
double damage on a successful hit against a charging character.
A heavy pilum can be thrown short distances, but since it is not designed
for ranged attacks it receives a -4 penalty on attack rolls when used as such.
Cost: 4 gp
Dmg (S): 1d6
Dmg (M): 1d8
Critical: x3
Range Increment: 5 ft.
Weight: 9 lb.
Type: Piercing

A mantlet is a detached fortification, a wooden 7 ft. by 8 ft. wall
constructed on a wheeled platform that can be rolled forward to protect troops
from attack by archers on the castle walls. They are often employed to protect
siege engineers while they work. Archers can shoot from a mantlet through
arrow slits and maintain cover.
Cost: 25 gp
Shield Bonus: 100% cover (pushing a mantlet provides 50% cover)
Weight: 200 lb.
Anonymous
October 21, 2004 12:49:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

"Joshua Mayfield" <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote in message
news:11674130160.48699.Alexandria.Patrick@go.com...
> The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat an
> opponent's shield. A successful sunder (Sunder, PHB) by a light pilum
> renders
> the target shield useless regardless of how many hit points damage it Once
> the
> shield has been pierced, the pilum shaft bends, making safe extraction
> impossible during combat. Such an encumbered shield is effectively useless
> for defense.
snip

Hi,
Why would a light pilum require a sunder to work? It is specificly
designed to bend, as you correctly stated, upon a successful attack. If
anything it is actually easier to hit a shield than the person holding it
since the main function is to block/deflect incoming attacks. So I can see
no reason to make it more difficult than a standard attack roll. The only
situation I could see requiring a sunder is if the defender was specificly
familiar with pilums and how they screwed his shield. After all, he would
have to move his shield and his body. Then the defender has a tough choice;
save his shield, save his chest, or try and get the hell outta the way.
Maybe you could angle your shield to deflect more so the pilum's bite would
be insufficient, dunno really. Never recieved a real one and hope to hell
not to. Not nit-picking here, just curious as to your reasons.

Thomas
October 21, 2004 5:18:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

"Keith Davies" <kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org> wrote in message
news:slrncnevv8.3b2.kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org...
> On 2004-10-21, Joshua Mayfield <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote:

> Okay, basically just a javelin with a bendy tip, that can disable a
> shield, for only twice the price of a normal javelin. Sunder normally
> draws an Attack of Opportunity, but since this is usually done before
> closing with the enemy, that's a null cost.
>
> In short, it gives you a nice ability with a simple weapon, at low cost
> (opportunity and equipment). This is too close to being a must-have for
> anyone who wants to regularly throw spears.

One thing though, the pilum is essentially ammunition. A one shot item.

> I'd consider the following:
>
> The light pilum is a javelin designed to defeat an opponent's shield
> by bending after hitting it, weighing it down. On a successful attack
> against the shield that overcomes the shield's hardness (see the
> Sunder action), the pilum will be stuck in the shield and render it
> useless. Removing the pilum is a full-round action that provokes an
> attack of opportunity.

Two things about invoking the Sunder mechanism makes me uneasy. First its
a ranged attack and that sets quite a precendent. Second, it is a piercing
weapon. These could be set aside for the sake of ease I suppose.

> I'd also consider these rules:
>
> . A Reflex check to prevent the pilum from sticking (it's fairly hard
> to actually penetrate a shield... on purpose);
> . A Strength check (DC 10+damage to shield) to remove the pilum;

Reasonable.

> > A heavy pilum is a polearm with a handguard, and possesses a
> > thicker shaft than a light pilum. It is designed to break on impact,
> > preventing it from being used against the original attacker. A heavy
> > pilum has reach, so it can strike opponents 10 ft. away, but it cannot
> > be used against an adjacent foe. If a ready action is used to set a
> > heavy pilum against a charge, it deals double damage on a successful
> > hit against a charging character.
> > A heavy pilum can be thrown short distances, but since it is not
> > designed for ranged attacks it receives a -4 penalty on attack rolls
> > when used as such.
> >
> > Cost: 4 gp
> > Dmg (S): 1d6
> > Dmg (M): 1d8
> > Critical: x3
> > Range Increment: 5 ft.
> > Weight: 9 lb.
> > Type: Piercing
>
> A 9-pound weapon that breaks as soon as it hits an opponent strikes me
> as a singularly stupid weapon that would be Darwinized in short order.
>
> I'm not denigrating your implementation, but questioning the weapon
> itself.

Historically there is scant archaeological evidence to suggest that there
were multiple weight pilum with the snap on hit capacity. The idea, IIRC,
comes from Polybius writing about the Legions at the time of the first
Punic War and possibly the mixing of terms by contemporary authors.

In practice a broken or bent Pilum could be quite easily repaired (it was
a matter of straightening the thin metal shaft and replacing a wooden
dowel) so perhaps their should be a Craft check required to quickly and
cheaply restore the weapon to working order.

> The stats above (except cost and range increment) are those of the long
> spear -- a pike, in other words, but you can throw it a short distance
> (poorly) and it'll break.
>
> A weapon like this -- one meant to hold off charges by *cavalry*, that
> breaks on impact, is a really, really bad idea. Giving it a lower cost
> than a pike is a little odd in that it's harder to make than a real pike
> (longspear). OTOH, it certainly isn't *worth* as much as a real pike.

Caesar actually ordered the weapon to be used in such a way during the
civil war. Remember that cavalry don't actually charge into spike hedges,
they veer away from them. If you have to actually use the weapon then they
are in your formation, something has gone wrong and you will only have one
chance to use it anyway.

> > A mantlet is a detached fortification, a wooden 7 ft. by 8 ft.
> > wall constructed on a wheeled platform that can be rolled forward to
> > protect troops from attack by archers on the castle walls. They are
> > often employed to protect siege engineers while they work. Archers can
> > shoot from a mantlet through arrow slits and maintain cover.
> >
> > Cost: 25 gp
> > Shield Bonus: 100% cover (pushing a mantlet provides 50% cover)
> > Weight: 200 lb.
>
> Basically a cart with a tower shield attached? A little light, in terms
> of both cost and weight. It should weigh more than a cart, I think, and
> cost at least as much as a tower shield. If you went with something
> like 40 gp and 225 pounds I think it'd be about right. A Tower shield
> is 30 gp and 45#, cart is 15 gp and 200#... you can save some weight
> because the 'cart' doesn't need sides and the like, but you'd certainly
> want some reinforcement behind the shield.

You could make the case. The cost should perhaps be increased to 40 but
the weight is neither here nor there.
Related resources
October 21, 2004 6:30:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

Joshua Mayfield se kaznjava streljanjem..

> The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat an
> opponent's shield. A successful sunder (Sunder, PHB) by a light pilum renders

... and so on..
this is great..
in my adventure i'm about to put some principes and velites as an
encounter, so i had to improvise them.. but adventure is in 3.5.. this is
how did i imagine it..

pilum (light) is just like javelin.. 1d6 + strength, standard reach.. but
i'm not using sunder attack, but this formula..
if i'm trying to hit a PC.. first i have to hit DC 10.. after that comes
it's DEX and misc deflection modifiers.. after that comes shield.. if i
hit AC between 10+dex+def and 10+dex+def+shld.. it's a hit in the
shield..
sounds complicate, but.. it's the way i see it
Also.. i made some experiments with very legionars.. if there is another
leg. 5ft adjenced from him, it' grants him +1 AC ant +1 ToHit competence
bonus, and +2vs fear.
What do you think about it?

--
nista od potpisa danas..
apatiner@yahoo.nJet
http://force.on.neobee.net
October 21, 2004 6:56:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

"Keith Davies" <kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org> wrote in message
news:slrncnfee6.3b2.kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org...
> On 2004-10-21, JB <jb70@talk21.com> wrote:
> >
> > "Keith Davies" <kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org> wrote in message
> > news:slrncnevv8.3b2.kjdavies@kjdavies.kjdavies.org...
> >> On 2004-10-21, Joshua Mayfield <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Okay, basically just a javelin with a bendy tip, that can disable a
> >> shield, for only twice the price of a normal javelin. Sunder
normally
> >> draws an Attack of Opportunity, but since this is usually done before
> >> closing with the enemy, that's a null cost.
> >>
> >> In short, it gives you a nice ability with a simple weapon, at low
cost
> >> (opportunity and equipment). This is too close to being a must-have
for
> >> anyone who wants to regularly throw spears.
> >
> > One thing though, the pilum is essentially ammunition. A one shot
item.
>
> Big ammunition, then. He's using the stats for a javelin, giving it a
> nifty ability, and then charging only a little bit more. I think that,
> given what it can do, it's a little cheap at the posted price.

I don't disagree but for the purposes of enchantment and what not it's a
pretty big downside. You could quite easily require a significant price
boost to justify the complexity of the design. If it were up to me I'd
introduce a repair method and boost the price significantly.

> > Two things about invoking the Sunder mechanism makes me uneasy. First
> > its a ranged attack and that sets quite a precendent. Second, it is a
> > piercing weapon. These could be set aside for the sake of ease I
> > suppose.
>
> That's why I changed the wording -- 'attack against the shield, refer to
> the Sunder action [for targeting information]'. It's *not* a Sunder
> attack, precisely, it's an attack against a shield.

Cool.

> >> A 9-pound weapon that breaks as soon as it hits an opponent strikes
me
> >> as a singularly stupid weapon that would be Darwinized in short
order.
> >>
> >> I'm not denigrating your implementation, but questioning the weapon
> >> itself.
> >
> > Historically there is scant archaeological evidence to suggest that
> > there were multiple weight pilum with the snap on hit capacity. The
> > idea, IIRC, comes from Polybius writing about the Legions at the time
> > of the first Punic War and possibly the mixing of terms by
> > contemporary authors.
> >
> > In practice a broken or bent Pilum could be quite easily repaired (it
> > was a matter of straightening the thin metal shaft and replacing a
> > wooden dowel) so perhaps their should be a Craft check required to
> > quickly and cheaply restore the weapon to working order.
>
> *bend* *insert stick* *break stick* could *conceivably* be sufficient.
> I don't know that it would be, but it could be enough if you really need
> the pilum back in action.

That sounds more like a cheap and chearful way that could result in
accuracy penalties.

The metal shaft would eventually snap if you bent it cold.

> >> The stats above (except cost and range increment) are those of the
long
> >> spear -- a pike, in other words, but you can throw it a short
distance
> >> (poorly) and it'll break.
> >>
> >> A weapon like this -- one meant to hold off charges by *cavalry*,
that
> >> breaks on impact, is a really, really bad idea. Giving it a lower
cost
> >> than a pike is a little odd in that it's harder to make than a real
pike
> >> (longspear). OTOH, it certainly isn't *worth* as much as a real
pike.
> >
> > Caesar actually ordered the weapon to be used in such a way during the
> > civil war. Remember that cavalry don't actually charge into spike
hedges,
> > they veer away from them. If you have to actually use the weapon then
they
> > are in your formation, something has gone wrong and you will only have
one
> > chance to use it anyway.
>
> I wouldn't want to rely on it in the general case. I can see using it
> like that on occasion, but not usually.

No it was an atypical use but it was the manoeuvre traditionally thought
to be decisive in the battle.

> And yes, it's bad if the cavalry ignore the pikes (difficult to do,
> convincing a horse to charge onto a pike), even if you *do* end up
> killing many of the horses and cavalry.

Quite a lot of people believe that you *can't* make a horse do that
against a *properly* formed hedge and breaches only occur through other
circumstances (a failure of formation somehow). The same principle applies
to the bayonet squares in the gunpowder age.

When Caesar formed his men up as makeshift pikemen their primary role was
to act as a rallying point for allied cavalry then counter attack the
disordered enemy horse.

> Even against infantry, I don't think I'd want to be on the other end of
> a stick designed to break. Sounds a little dangerous, even given the
> circumstances.

Pilum were always supposed to be thrown. The penalty is possibly the OP's
method of balancing the increased damage.

Personally I'd just do away with the heavy version altogether.
Anonymous
October 25, 2004 8:41:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

In rec.games.frp.dnd Joshua Mayfield <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote:

: The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat an
: opponent's shield.
:
: A heavy pilum is a polearm with a handguard, and possesses a thicker
: shaft than a light pilum.
:
: A mantlet is a detached fortification, a wooden 7 ft. by 8 ft. wall
: constructed on a wheeled platform that can be rolled forward to protect
: troops from attack by archers on the castle walls. They are often employed
: to protect siege engineers while they work.

Are these real? I never heard of them before? What is their historical context?

--
ISLAM: Winning the hearts and minds of the world, one bomb at a time.
Anonymous
October 26, 2004 3:41:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

Ubiquitous wrote:

>In rec.games.frp.dnd Joshua Mayfield <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote:
>
>: The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat an
>: opponent's shield.
>:
>: A heavy pilum is a polearm with a handguard, and possesses a thicker
>: shaft than a light pilum.
>:
>: A mantlet is a detached fortification, a wooden 7 ft. by 8 ft. wall
>: constructed on a wheeled platform that can be rolled forward to protect
>: troops from attack by archers on the castle walls. They are often employed
>: to protect siege engineers while they work.
>
>Are these real? I never heard of them before? What is their historical context?
>
>
>
I know that I've read of the two different pilum versions. Though I
don't remeber the reference. The mantlet makes perfect sense as well. I
know I'd use one if it were around. Or invent one if it weren't.
Anything to keep those missile weapons from landing on my head...

--
Tetsubo
My page: http://home.comcast.net/~tetsubo/
--------------------------------------
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing.
-- Anatole France
Anonymous
October 26, 2004 3:22:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

In rec.games.frp.dnd Tetsubo <tetsubo@comcast.net> wrote:
: Ubiquitous wrote:

:>Are these real? I never heard of them before? What is their historical
:>context?
:>
: I know that I've read of the two different pilum versions. Though I
: don't remeber the reference. The mantlet makes perfect sense as well. I
: know I'd use one if it were around. Or invent one if it weren't.
: Anything to keep those missile weapons from landing on my head...

Apparently they were listed in Dragon magazine once, if my sources are
correct; I don't care enough to check.
October 26, 2004 6:17:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.dnd,alt.games.adnd (More info?)

"Tetsubo" <tetsubo@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:BsudnVHFfqcXWuDcRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
> Ubiquitous wrote:
>
> >In rec.games.frp.dnd Joshua Mayfield <Alexandria.Patrick@go.com> wrote:
> >
> >: The light pilum is a javelin designed to bend in order to defeat
an
> >: opponent's shield.
> >:
> >: A heavy pilum is a polearm with a handguard, and possesses a
thicker
> >: shaft than a light pilum.
> >:
> >: A mantlet is a detached fortification, a wooden 7 ft. by 8 ft.
wall
> >: constructed on a wheeled platform that can be rolled forward to
protect
> >: troops from attack by archers on the castle walls. They are often
employed
> >: to protect siege engineers while they work.
> >
> >Are these real? I never heard of them before? What is their historical
context?
> >
> >
> >
> I know that I've read of the two different pilum versions.

Polybius is the only contemporary or near contemporary source who
describes two weights of Pilum. Most scholars agree that by the time the
"snap" was added to the "bend" feature they had been standardized to one
size. Around about the time of Gaius Marius.

> Though I
> don't remeber the reference. The mantlet makes perfect sense as well. I
> know I'd use one if it were around.

Yes. Described by many authors across a wide time scale.

> Or invent one if it weren't.
> Anything to keep those missile weapons from landing on my head...
>
> --
> Tetsubo

You could always perform the Testudo, Tetsubo.
!