Set Items [V, all?]

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Been a while since I've posted, so I thought I'd throw something random and new
in. I know ToME does it to an extent, but having been playing Diablo II and
Dungeon Siege II recently I've grown in love with the concept of balancing
"set" items, and this is largely uncharted territory in *bands.

Is there any aim to start having sets of items that give group bonuses by any
*band developers out there?

--
Take Care,
Graham

Pos(0.3.0a2) Alpha "Natar" XX L:1 DL:50' !A R--- !Sp w:Short Sword +0,+0
Pos(V/T//NPP) W H- D+ c-- f PV+ s- TT? d P++ M+
C-- S+ I- So B ac GHB- SQ+ RQ+ V+ F:Better monster AI (Acting like decent
players without automatically knowing where the player is - randomly roaming
the dungeon etc...)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, topazg wrote:

> Is there any aim to start having sets of items that give group bonuses by any
> *band developers out there?

Hengband has this, so does Sangband.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

> Tome did it already

> Hengband has this, so does Sangband.

Actually, Oangband did this first. Oddly, it was the same week that
TOME did it, so I am willing to call it a tie

--
Bahman Rabii

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, topazg wrote:

> Goes to show how good I am at Sangband, never got any parts of a set.

I am almost positive this was in Sangband, the Phial and Sting are a set.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-09-12 15:27:03, Cliff Stamp <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, topazg wrote:
>
> > Is there any aim to start having sets of items that give group bonuses by any
> > *band developers out there?
>
> Hengband has this, so does Sangband.
>

Really? Goes to show how good I am at Sangband, never got any parts of a set.

And Hengband I don't play unfortunately :/

--
Take Care,
Graham

Pos(0.3.0a2) Alpha "Natar" XX L:1 DL:50' !A R--- !Sp w:Short Sword +0,+0
Pos(V/T//NPP) W H- D+ c-- f PV+ s- TT? d P++ M+
C-- S+ I- So B ac GHB- SQ+ RQ+ V+ F:Better monster AI (Acting like decent
players without automatically knowing where the player is - randomly roaming
the dungeon etc...)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

topazg a écrit :
> Been a while since I've posted, so I thought I'd throw something random and new
> in. I know ToME does it to an extent, but having been playing Diablo II and
> Dungeon Siege II recently I've grown in love with the concept of balancing
> "set" items, and this is largely uncharted territory in *bands.
>
> Is there any aim to start having sets of items that give group bonuses by any
> *band developers out there?

Tome did it already

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-09-12 15:13:32, Christophe <chris.cavalaria@free.fr> wrote:

> topazg a écrit :
> > Been a while since I've posted, so I thought I'd throw something random and new
> > in. I know ToME does it to an extent, but having been playing Diablo II and
> > Dungeon Siege II recently I've grown in love with the concept of balancing
> > "set" items, and this is largely uncharted territory in *bands.
> >
> > Is there any aim to start having sets of items that give group bonuses by any
> > *band developers out there?
>
> Tome did it already
>

Yeah, I know it kind of does, but tome just has main artifacts as part of the
set - most of which are quite rare and not always easy to get hold of half,
never mind the full, set.

In Dungeon Siege II for example most of the set items are not that great, but
you start getting fairly good set bonuses for each piece of the set you are
currently weilding - for example with 2/4 pieces of a set you are receiving
small set bonuses, 3/4 better and 4/4 the full set bonuses. The point of them
is that on their own they aren't great items, but together they become worth it
- Tome's sets are basically fully powered artifacts in their own right, for
example isn't Sting part of the elven set at the same time as being one of the
most more powerful artifact weapons in its own right?

--
Take Care,
Graham

Pos(0.3.0a2) Alpha "Natar" XX L:1 DL:50' !A R--- !Sp w:Short Sword +0,+0
Pos(V/T//NPP) W H- D+ c-- f PV+ s- TT? d P++ M+
C-- S+ I- So B ac GHB- SQ+ RQ+ V+ F:Better monster AI (Acting like decent
players without automatically knowing where the player is - randomly roaming
the dungeon etc...)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

It seems to me as though this would be a great addition to certain
variants, although I do worry about it not coming up often enough to
make a difference. Perhaps we should give artifacts that are part of a
set that you have started gathering a bonus to appear in order to make
it a bit more relevent?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"Brian Trautman" <netbrian@gmail.com> writes:

> It seems to me as though this would be a great addition to certain
> variants, although I do worry about it not coming up often enough to
> make a difference. Perhaps we should give artifacts that are part of a
> set that you have started gathering a bonus to appear in order to make
> it a bit more relevent?

The real problem is lack of inventory space. I have played variants
with sets, but never thought it worth the slot to save one in vague
hopes of finding the rest in time for them to be useful.

If you really want sets to be relevant, maybe you need to double the
inventory in the home.


Eddie

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

topazg a écrit :
> On 2005-09-12 15:13:32, Christophe <chris.cavalaria@free.fr> wrote:
>
>
>>topazg a écrit :
>>
>>>Been a while since I've posted, so I thought I'd throw something random and new
>>>in. I know ToME does it to an extent, but having been playing Diablo II and
>>>Dungeon Siege II recently I've grown in love with the concept of balancing
>>>"set" items, and this is largely uncharted territory in *bands.
>>>
>>>Is there any aim to start having sets of items that give group bonuses by any
>>>*band developers out there?
>>
>>Tome did it already
>>
>
>
> Yeah, I know it kind of does, but tome just has main artifacts as part of the
> set - most of which are quite rare and not always easy to get hold of half,
> never mind the full, set.
>
> In Dungeon Siege II for example most of the set items are not that great, but
> you start getting fairly good set bonuses for each piece of the set you are
> currently weilding - for example with 2/4 pieces of a set you are receiving
> small set bonuses, 3/4 better and 4/4 the full set bonuses. The point of them
> is that on their own they aren't great items, but together they become worth it
> - Tome's sets are basically fully powered artifacts in their own right, for
> example isn't Sting part of the elven set at the same time as being one of the
> most more powerful artifact weapons in its own right?

Yes but I would say it's just a matter of tunning and creating sets.

In Dungeon Siege II, unique items aren't that unique btw

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Cliff Stamp <sstamp@physics.mun.ca> wrote in
newsine.LNX.4.60.0509121240480.24543@kelvin.physics.mun.ca:

> On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, topazg wrote:
>
>> Goes to show how good I am at Sangband, never got any parts of a set.
>
> I am almost positive this was in Sangband, the Phial and Sting are a set.

I want to think Sangband has sets. Though I never actually completed
any sets. No idea what kind of bonus there might be for a set, but in
most cases I ended up selling set artifacts before getting the other
parts. (Even if you want to keep them out of curiosity, there is only
so much room in the home and you keep finding better items. And forging
certainly threw a wrench into matters, taking even more room, producing
more items that could be useful in certain circumstances, and sometimes
making a mess of just what was essential in your current kit.)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-09-12 16:51:06, Christophe <chris.cavalaria@free.fr> wrote:

> topazg a �crit :
> > On 2005-09-12 15:13:32, Christophe wrote:
> >
> >
> >>topazg a �crit :
> >>
> >>>Been a while since I've posted, so I thought I'd throw something random and new
> >>>in. I know ToME does it to an extent, but having been playing Diablo II and
> >>>Dungeon Siege II recently I've grown in love with the concept of balancing
> >>>"set" items, and this is largely uncharted territory in *bands.
> >>>
> >>>Is there any aim to start having sets of items that give group bonuses by any
> >>>*band developers out there?
> >>
> >>Tome did it already
> >>
> >
> >
> > Yeah, I know it kind of does, but tome just has main artifacts as part of the
> > set - most of which are quite rare and not always easy to get hold of half,
> > never mind the full, set.
> >
> > In Dungeon Siege II for example most of the set items are not that great, but
> > you start getting fairly good set bonuses for each piece of the set you are
> > currently weilding - for example with 2/4 pieces of a set you are receiving
> > small set bonuses, 3/4 better and 4/4 the full set bonuses. The point of them
> > is that on their own they aren't great items, but together they become worth it
> > - Tome's sets are basically fully powered artifacts in their own right, for
> > example isn't Sting part of the elven set at the same time as being one of the
> > most more powerful artifact weapons in its own right?
>
> Yes but I would say it's just a matter of tunning and creating sets.
>
> In Dungeon Siege II, unique items aren't that unique btw
>

Yeah I noticed that - not that I'm complaining mind you


--
Take Care,
Graham

Pos(0.3.0a2) Alpha "Natar" XX L:1 DL:50' !A R--- !Sp w:Short Sword +0,+0
Pos(V/T//NPP) W H- D+ c-- f PV+ s- TT? d P++ M+
C-- S+ I- So B ac GHB- SQ+ RQ+ V+ F:Better monster AI (Acting like decent
players without automatically knowing where the player is - randomly roaming
the dungeon etc...)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-09-13 10:15:02, Billy Bissette <baines@coastalnet.com> wrote:

> Cliff Stamp wrote in
> newsine.LNX.4.60.0509121240480.24543@kelvin.physics.mun.ca:
>
> > On Mon, 12 Sep 2005, topazg wrote:
> >
> >> Goes to show how good I am at Sangband, never got any parts of a set.
> >
> > I am almost positive this was in Sangband, the Phial and Sting are a set.
>
> I want to think Sangband has sets. Though I never actually completed
> any sets. No idea what kind of bonus there might be for a set, but in
> most cases I ended up selling set artifacts before getting the other
> parts. (Even if you want to keep them out of curiosity, there is only
> so much room in the home and you keep finding better items. And forging
> certainly threw a wrench into matters, taking even more room, producing
> more items that could be useful in certain circumstances, and sometimes
> making a mess of just what was essential in your current kit.)
>

That's precisely my point - they've never been worth collection. Dungeon Siege
II is the first game where I've actively been trying to collect sets, and each
of my party members has at least one, sometimes two active sets that they are
working on. Maybe it is just the novelty factor but the collection set bonuses
make for a really interesting balancing factor.

I also like the "oo, this is a nice helmet, but I can't afford to break the set
for it. Perhaps if nice body armour comes along too I'll swap them both.."
issues.

--
Take Care,
Graham

Pos(0.3.0a2) Alpha "Natar" XX L:1 DL:50' !A R--- !Sp w:Short Sword +0,+0
Pos(V/T//NPP) W H- D+ c-- f PV+ s- TT? d P++ M+
C-- S+ I- So B ac GHB- SQ+ RQ+ V+ F:Better monster AI (Acting like decent
players without automatically knowing where the player is - randomly roaming
the dungeon etc...)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-09-13 01:23:33, "Brian Trautman" <netbrian@gmail.com> wrote:

> It seems to me as though this would be a great addition to certain
> variants, although I do worry about it not coming up often enough to
> make a difference. Perhaps we should give artifacts that are part of a
> set that you have started gathering a bonus to appear in order to make
> it a bit more relevent?
>

Yeah, that was my feeling - small bonus for 2/x, bigger for 3/x and full for x/x
type thing,...


--
Take Care,
Graham

Pos(0.3.0a2) Alpha "Natar" XX L:1 DL:50' !A R--- !Sp w:Short Sword +0,+0
Pos(V/T//NPP) W H- D+ c-- f PV+ s- TT? d P++ M+
C-- S+ I- So B ac GHB- SQ+ RQ+ V+ F:Better monster AI (Acting like decent
players without automatically knowing where the player is - randomly roaming
the dungeon etc...)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-09-13 01:40:36, Eddie Grove <eddiegrove@hot.NOSPAM.mail.com> wrote:

> "Brian Trautman" writes:
>
> > It seems to me as though this would be a great addition to certain
> > variants, although I do worry about it not coming up often enough to
> > make a difference. Perhaps we should give artifacts that are part of a
> > set that you have started gathering a bonus to appear in order to make
> > it a bit more relevent?
>
> The real problem is lack of inventory space. I have played variants
> with sets, but never thought it worth the slot to save one in vague
> hopes of finding the rest in time for them to be useful.
>
> If you really want sets to be relevant, maybe you need to double the
> inventory in the home.
>
>
> Eddie
>

Yeah, I would agree, home space is always a bit of a cludge anyway. To begin
with you have nothing to use it for, later on you either fill it with artifacts
that you think you might swap in but for the most part never do. The only real
use it has is for stocking potions and scrolls for the endgame fights IMHO.


--
Take Care,
Graham

Pos(0.3.0a2) Alpha "Natar" XX L:1 DL:50' !A R--- !Sp w:Short Sword +0,+0
Pos(V/T//NPP) W H- D+ c-- f PV+ s- TT? d P++ M+
C-- S+ I- So B ac GHB- SQ+ RQ+ V+ F:Better monster AI (Acting like decent
players without automatically knowing where the player is - randomly roaming
the dungeon etc...)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 2005-09-12 17:08:53, Bahman Rabii <bahman@unmaker.com> wrote:

> > Tome did it already
>
> > Hengband has this, so does Sangband.
>
> Actually, Oangband did this first. Oddly, it was the same week that
> TOME did it, so I am willing to call it a tie
>

Fair enough, have you implemented the idea of part set bonus as well? I guess
the problem is always having a limited amount of bonuses that the items can
actually give, so a steadily increasing bonus set would either be useless at
the bottom end or overpowered at the top.

It would however allow people to have different kits for the final fight, if for
example a special mage set (with all of Gandalf's bits and bobs and maybe one of
the light sources or something) would give Res Blind, Res Conf, Res Neth, Res
Chaos, and +5 INT for collecting the set, as extras to the items themselves
(All of which I find essential for mages).


--
Take Care,
Graham

Pos(0.3.0a2) Alpha "Natar" XX L:1 DL:50' !A R--- !Sp w:Short Sword +0,+0
Pos(V/T//NPP) W H- D+ c-- f PV+ s- TT? d P++ M+
C-- S+ I- So B ac GHB- SQ+ RQ+ V+ F:Better monster AI (Acting like decent
players without automatically knowing where the player is - randomly roaming
the dungeon etc...)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

topazg <graham@blessyou.co.uk> wrote in news:dg62a8$2j5c$1@news.vol.cz:

> That's precisely my point - they've never been worth collection.
> Dungeon Siege II is the first game where I've actively been trying to
> collect sets, and each of my party members has at least one, sometimes
> two active sets that they are working on. Maybe it is just the novelty
> factor but the collection set bonuses make for a really interesting
> balancing factor.

Sangband should be rougher on the practicality of sets due to forging.
Less house space due to keeping ores, many more objects created by the
player to contend, as well as the tendency to get a crazy quilt of
resistances and abilities that can sometimes make it difficult to
safely squeeze even a single desired artifact into the mix without
losing
just as much elsewhere.

But even with more standard variants, sets probably have an uphill
battle. There are a lot of artifacts, and you have other uses for your
limited home space as well. You aren't guaranteed to get certain
artifacts within the time period where they might actually be useful,
and many artifacts are quickly outclassed by others.

If you design sets to include weak artifacts, then you potentially
sabotage the worth of the set from the start. Why go for a set bonus
if you can beat the combination with other as readily available options?
Sets composed of average and strong artifacts only might just tilt the
balance of a desired kit though, becoming the equivalent of finding
Ringil.

While somewhat counter to Angband's preference for keeping item data
from the player until the last moment (at least for the first
playthrough,) sets might be a little bit nicer if the player could
find out both the benefits and components earlier rather than later.
Such as listing both the set bonus and all pieces required to make a
set in the description of every piece of the set. I'm not really
going to care if a fairly poor pair of artifact gloves are part of a
set if I just get the vague message that it is part of a set. But if
I see from just the first artifact that the set bonus would turn them
into something useful and saw what else I needed, I might consider
keeping them around rather than immediately selling them to buy other
needed supplies. (But then again, I find myself getting more annoyed
with actually having to *ID* artifacts just to remind myself what they
do whenever I take a gaming vacation, considering the average player
probably remembers what anything important does already after the
first few games.)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:35:49 GMT, Billy Bissette wrote:

(snip)
>(But then again, I find myself getting more annoyed
>with actually having to *ID* artifacts just to remind myself what they
>do whenever I take a gaming vacation, considering the average player
>probably remembers what anything important does already after the
>first few games.)

Hi Billy,

If that annoys you, then why don't you consult a spoiler? That's what
they are for, after all - to give players who don't want to find out
while playing, or who forgot the details, a chance to look it up.

Best, Hugo
--
Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!

(Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Billy Bissette <baines@coastalnet.com> writes:

> It just seems silly to me that I find an ancient artifact that is
> so well known that I recognize it by name...and don't know what it
> does.

Anything *that* ancient and well-known will be, almost by definition, so
surrounded by legends and myths that it would be virtually impossible to
separate fact from fiction. Either that, or it would be forgotten by all
but a handful of sages and wise men.

Take Tolkien's One Ring, for example - arguably the most powerful artifact
of its time. By Bilbo's time, it had become so poorly-known that when he
found it, it never crossed his mind to think "One Ring". Even Gandalf,
one of the wisest of the wise, had to both visit a recognized authority
on Rings of Power (Saruman), and research through musty scrolls in Gondor
to even find out *how* to identify Bilbo's ring.

sherm--

--
Cocoa programming in Perl: http://camelbones.sourceforge.net
Hire me! My resume: http://www.dot-app.org

 

[magnate]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Just to confirm - Sangband *definitely* has sets. I'm not sure how far
back, but one of the changelogs lists an interesting bug where the
partial set bonus for something wasn't removed when you unwielded it,
so you could just keep putting it on over and over ....

Sets work nicely in S because it supports up to three pvals. I'm not
sure whether ToME or O do this as well, but it allows for much more
variety in partial bonuses.

CC

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Hugo Kornelis <Angband@hugo.is_NO_dit.c_SPAM_om> wrote in
news:6d9hi1t3aspbstts6if5votuqbkqamhgbb@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:35:49 GMT, Billy Bissette wrote:
>
> (snip)
>>(But then again, I find myself getting more annoyed
>>with actually having to *ID* artifacts just to remind myself what they
>>do whenever I take a gaming vacation, considering the average player
>>probably remembers what anything important does already after the
>>first few games.)
>
> If that annoys you, then why don't you consult a spoiler? That's what
> they are for, after all - to give players who don't want to find out
> while playing, or who forgot the details, a chance to look it up.

Well, I did originally have "or to check a spoiler," though I must
have dropped that in a rewrite.

It just seems silly to me that I find an ancient artifact that is
so well known that I recognize it by name...and don't know what it
does. Unless of course I've played the game recently, in which case
I likely remember what everything worth remembering does. And anything
not worth remembering isn't worth remembering by definition...

Random artifacts actually address it somewhat, because I see a name
and still don't have a clue what it does. But then again, early random
artifacts often aren't worth the waste of an *ID* even if you happen to
have one available, which is itself an issue of sorts.

It just reaches a point where anyone that plays the game moderately
regularly knows what the items do. The game just isn't willing to tell
the player until the player goes through an extra effort to regain the
information for a specific character. It isn't the same as having items
get new flavors when you start a new character. Or more appropriately
is like potions of water, apple juice, and slime mold juice, which
retain the same colors so you know what they are on sight every game
you play, they just aren't identified. Except of course there is no
cost nor effort to id those potions, unlike artifacts.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Billy Bissette wrote:
> Well, I did originally have "or to check a spoiler," though I must
> have dropped that in a rewrite.
>
> It just seems silly to me that I find an ancient artifact that is
> so well known that I recognize it by name...and don't know what it
> does. Unless of course I've played the game recently, in which case
> I likely remember what everything worth remembering does. And anything
> not worth remembering isn't worth remembering by definition...
>
> Random artifacts actually address it somewhat, because I see a name
> and still don't have a clue what it does. But then again, early random
> artifacts often aren't worth the waste of an *ID* even if you happen to
> have one available, which is itself an issue of sorts.
>
> It just reaches a point where anyone that plays the game moderately
> regularly knows what the items do. The game just isn't willing to tell
> the player until the player goes through an extra effort to regain the
> information for a specific character. It isn't the same as having items
> get new flavors when you start a new character. Or more appropriately
> is like potions of water, apple juice, and slime mold juice, which
> retain the same colors so you know what they are on sight every game
> you play, they just aren't identified. Except of course there is no
> cost nor effort to id those potions, unlike artifacts.

It would be interesting to add object memory to the monster memory in
save files to see how that affects game play. Do any current variants
allow for this?

Wil

--
Wil Hunt
Geek in training.
Jack of few trades, master of none.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 04:46:08 GMT, Billy Bissette wrote:

(snip)
> It just seems silly to me that I find an ancient artifact that is
>so well known that I recognize it by name...and don't know what it
>does. Unless of course I've played the game recently, in which case
>I likely remember what everything worth remembering does. And anything
>not worth remembering isn't worth remembering by definition...

Hi Billy,

I understand what you write, but I see no easy in-game solution.

If you give full knowledge of (some or even all) artifacts as starting
knowledge in Angband, you'll deprive new players of the thrill of
thinking "wow, I've found this new artifact, ca't wait to find out what
it actually does!".

The other option is to make sure that the properties of an artifact will
be a surprise for anyone - eliminate standard artifacts and allow only
randarts instead. That would deprive experienced players of the ease of
a quick game in which they know what everything does. Plus, I think it's
too big a step from standard Angband. Could be included in a variant,
though. (In fact, it already is - check out Randomband).

Will's suggestion to add an object memory, similar to the current
monster memory would probably be the best "in-game" solution.

Or you'll just have to settle for occasionally consulting a spoiler.

Best, Hugo
--
Your sig line (k) was stolen! (more)
There is a puff of smoke!

(Remove NO and SPAM to get my e-mail address)