[Vanilla] Char level vs Dungeon Level (mage) [Vanilla]

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What's an appropriate char level vs dungeon depth for mages?

The problem I keep having is sudden and immediate death. I'll get up to
level 25 - 30 as a mage and be between dungeon level 30 (1500') - level
40 (2000') and something will kill me instantly - normally a unique but
not always.

I've normally got see invis, free action and most if not all of the
basic 4 resists and am working up my stats. I'm thinking I just don't
have enough hit points? Even if I'm careful with detect and detect
invis invariably I end up having to teleport or I come down the wrong
set of stairs because suddenly it's <more> and You die, or sometimes
there's not even a <more> it's just You die and I'm not even really
sure what killed me, heh.

I carry staff of enlightenment, staff of teleportation, scrolls of
teleport level and always do detect monsters and detect invis - if I
survive a single round I can normally get away.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

A level 25 to 30 mage doing stat gain sounds about right to me. I lost
a L28 mage to Bolg recently, but that was my own fault.

I could have quaffed a pot of speed so he wasn't so much quicker, or I
could have emptied a wand into him instead of plinking with magic
missles. He was about dead when I teleported out, but so was I because
phase door failed three times in a row. I ended up in the middle of a
pack of hounds after read ing a teleport scroll.

If I had been speedy, I wouldn't have had to scoot as often during my
scoot and shoot attack, and if I han't been hoarding charges on the
wand, he'd have been dead already from the extra damage. Even if I had
had to teleport out, I might have been able to read a second scroll
before the hounds breathed all over me with the extra speed.

You probably just need to run from uniques without even trying to fight
them. What's difficult at the start of stat gain often becomes
trivially easy by even after a few of the right potions.

As to the other things you mentioned, Most monsters are asleep when I
first enter a level. I've never had the go down a staircase and die
experience. It sounds like you've got all the basics for survival at
that level covered.

 

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On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, devapps wrote:

> What's an appropriate char level vs dungeon depth for mages?

It depends greatly on your equipment, generally a few levels won't make
nearly as much differnce as what you are wearing. If you are dying at CL30,
it isn't like being at Cl32 allows you to slaughter the monsters.

> The problem I keep having is sudden and immediate death. I'll get up to
> level 25 - 30 as a mage and be between dungeon level 30 (1500') - level
> 40 (2000') and something will kill me instantly - normally a unique but
> not always.

Mages are one of the harder classes to play in the beginning because of the
low hp's and tendancy to rely on means of escape which are not 0%. Even
though you have spells of phase/teleport, you should not rely on them if you
can die the next turn if they fail. Use staves/wands or better yet scrolls.

> I end up having to teleport or I come down the wrong
> set of stairs because suddenly it's <more> and You die, or sometimes
> there's not even a <more> it's just You die and I'm not even really
> sure what killed me, heh.

This doesn't sound like Vanilla, I am almost positive you get the first move
when you enter a level unless you go down and something is significantly
faster than you. Most monsters are generated asleep though so it takes a
turn for them to wake up.

With mages what generally kills you are ranged attacks, bolts/balls/breaths
because you never have to face melee attacks with phase door and either
magic or bolts/arrows. Carry potions of resist heat/cold which will allow
you to ignore those attacks.

Mages will die more than most until you get a solid monster memory because
the low hp's don't give you much of a mistake buffer. Some basic strategy
when fighting hard guys for example, clean the rest of the level first, or
at least explore it. This way you don't teleport out of a fight with a
unique into a pack of hounds.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Well, I'm not sure what monsters have FORCE_SLEEP. Perhaps these are
the ultra mean monsters that can kill any char instantly? The problem
is with 170 hp on my latest char for example even the little monsters
can kill me. For example I came down stairs and happened to be right
next to Akhorahil the Blind. Instantly he hit, wailed and gazed me down
to 30hp from full. I would have been killed but for a few lucky misses.

I haven't found any RoCon in BM or in dungeon yet so perhaps soon I'll
be levelling another newbie.

 

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Cliff Stamp wrote:
> On Sat, 24 Sep 2005, devapps wrote:
>
>> What's an appropriate char level vs dungeon depth for mages?

Can't say. It depends of your gear, your race and playing style.

>> The problem I keep having is sudden and immediate death. I'll get up to
>> level 25 - 30 as a mage and be between dungeon level 30 (1500') - level
>> 40 (2000') and something will kill me instantly - normally a unique but
>> not always.
>
> Mages are one of the harder classes to play in the beginning because of the
> low hp's and tendancy to rely on means of escape which are not 0%. Even

My advise for low HP: Get RoCON.

>> I end up having to teleport or I come down the wrong
>> set of stairs because suddenly it's <more> and You die, or sometimes
>> there's not even a <more> it's just You die and I'm not even really
>> sure what killed me, heh.
>
> This doesn't sound like Vanilla, I am almost positive you get the first
> move when you enter a level unless you go down and something is significantly
> faster than you.

Monster speed doesn't matter. Monsters with FORCE_SLEEP can't use their
spells/breaths before player has made a move. They can melee, though.
Note that this has nothing to do with sleep/awake (flag has somewhat
misleading name).

I believe problem here is that he is casting detection and that takes up
a turn. _then_ monsters can do whatever thay want.

> Most monsters are generated asleep though so it takes a
> turn for them to wake up.

That would add to above.

Timo Pietilä

 

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> Besides Eddie and Cliff, diving that fast isn't normal. Slow down. You
> don't need to get below 2000 before you have at least 18/170 CON and
> maxed or near-maxed INT.
>
> Timo Pietilä

I'll second this. I realized that the original poster had been talking
about stat gain level and rPoison level in the same sentence after
responding. L30 at 1500' is fine. As your stats improve you can start
heading deeper, but I wouldn't head down to 2000' until I was nearly
done (18/90+) on key stats.

I remember long ago someone posting that stat gain was one of the more
boring parts of the game. But if you want a high survival percentage
you have to take this part slow. For spell casters now, each potion
that affects their mana probably produces a biger increase in character
power than gaining a level would. These big power jumps make it very
risky to head deeper until stat gain is esentially done. For power
divers it might constitute a high risk / high reward activity. For the
rest of us, it's a high risk / low reward activity.

Sorry if this is redundant, but I felt remiss about missing the depths
to which the poster was diving after my 1st reply.

 

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devapps wrote:
> Well, I'm not sure what monsters have FORCE_SLEEP.

Practically all monsters that have strong distance-attack. At least I
didn't find any that don't have that flag.

> Perhaps these are
> the ultra mean monsters that can kill any char instantly?

Should not be.

> The problem
> is with 170 hp on my latest char for example even the little monsters
> can kill me. For example I came down stairs and happened to be right
> next to Akhorahil the Blind.

What an earth is Akhorahil doing that high in dungeon? You should have a
lot more HP before seeing him. Akhorahil is dlvl 45 monster.

> Instantly he hit, wailed and gazed me down
> to 30hp from full. I would have been killed but for a few lucky misses.

Those are melee-attacks. That can happen with FORCE_SLEEP. You could
have landed next to death mold. RIP.

> I haven't found any RoCon in BM or in dungeon yet so perhaps soon I'll
> be levelling another newbie.

Besides Eddie and Cliff, diving that fast isn't normal. Slow down. You
don't need to get below 2000 before you have at least 18/170 CON and
maxed or near-maxed INT.

Timo Pietilä

 

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> devapps wrote:

> The problem
> is with 170 hp on my latest char for example even the little monsters
> can kill me. For example I came down stairs and happened to be right
> next to Akhorahil the Blind.

This is just really bad luck, it happens. If you are moving that fast that
you are running into Akhorahil at 170 hp's then you need to be using
careful planning. Check Eddie's "tales" post where he notes the
preperation he uses when going down stairs.

You want to do things like remove any aggravate items, cast haste,
resistance, etc. . Also at that rate of diving you will be focused on very
selective fighting, especially for a mage. Be very prepared to leave levels
easily, scrolls of teleport level are very valuable for a long time.

--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"devapps" <dev.apps@gmail.com> schrieb...

> What's an appropriate char level vs dungeon depth for mages?
>
> The problem I keep having is sudden and immediate death. I'll get up to
> level 25 - 30 as a mage and be between dungeon level 30 (1500') - level
> 40 (2000') and something will kill me instantly - normally a unique but
> not always.

1500' - 1650' is ok.
But then, the monsters get nastier very fast. At 1750', there are
some bad hounds. With a mage, better wait at 1650' for a while and
raise int and con (with potions and rings).

> Even if I'm careful with detect and detect
> invis invariably I end up having to teleport

That's quite normal.
With more experience, you'll avoid monsters that are too tough,
until you can handle them.

And when you have the chance, better teleport the big monster away,
instead of teleporting yourself.

> or I come down the wrong
> set of stairs because suddenly it's <more> and You die, or sometimes
> there's not even a <more> it's just You die and I'm not even really
> sure what killed me, heh.

You should be able to read it at your tombstone.
Or check it in your scroes list.
There shouldn't be many things that can instant kill you, even with low
hit points. If you stat what kills you, maybe we can give better advice.

Werner.

 

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Well thanks for all the advice. I was curious if I was diving a little
too fast or just doing things horribly wrong and it sounds like I was
just diving too fast.

My current strategy is pretty dive centric I guess. I'll dive straight
to level 10 with just the 1st (&r 2nd spellbook if I can afford it -
normally not) and return with my WoR. Selling wands and staffs I've
gotten on my dive I'll buy the 2nd, 3rd and 4th books and dive down to
about 32. Normally I'm about char level 18 at this point & have avoided
all uniques except fang & friend.

If I survive this far hopefully I've found a couple of high powered
wands - cold balls, lightning balls or at least can buy some from the
BM. I'll then return to levels 1 - 15 and wipe out whatever uniques I
can find and hopefully get some decent resists or perhaps an artifact
or 2. I normally can then finance my rings of see invis, free action
and speed staff, plus array of wands etc. Then I return to levels 35-40
to get stat potions where I'm normally killed.

Currently my latest char is level 28 at dungeon level 42. I have a
staff of destruction I plan to use on any vault looking thing that
might contain an artifact.

 

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On Tue, 26 Sep 2005, devapps wrote:

> Well thanks for all the advice. I was curious if I was diving a little
> too fast or just doing things horribly wrong and it sounds like I was
> just diving too fast.

There is no such thing, I have ran mages that fast that if I went down
stairs and took melee from guys I would be dead. That is just reall bad
luck. It happens, like teleporting into LOS of a pack of hounds of high
level undead.

> My current strategy is pretty dive centric I guess. I'll dive straight
> to level 10 with just the 1st (&r 2nd spellbook if I can afford it -
> normally not) and return with my WoR. Selling wands and staffs I've
> gotten on my dive I'll buy the 2nd, 3rd and 4th books and dive down to
> about 32. Normally I'm about char level 18 at this point & have avoided
> all uniques except fang & friend.
>
> If I survive this far hopefully I've found a couple of high powered
> wands - cold balls, lightning balls or at least can buy some from the
> BM. I'll then return to levels 1 - 15 and wipe out whatever uniques I
> can find and hopefully get some decent resists or perhaps an artifact
> or 2.

This is likely a waste of time, you are better off spending time at Dl30+.

> I normally can then finance my rings of see invis, free action
> and speed staff, plus array of wands etc. Then I return to levels 35-40
> to get stat potions where I'm normally killed.

At this point, unless you have objections to it, you might want to turn on
auto-scum and start fighting. Not level clearing, but vault/unique/OoD
hunting. Detect objects helps a lot in speeding up loot gain. Just remember
to keep resistances/haste up if you can. Try to get a really high stealth if
possible.


--
Cliff Stamp
sstamp@physics.mun.ca http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/

The one unforgivable sin, the offence against one's own integrity,
is to accept anything at all simply on authority -- Maureen Johnson Long

Anyone can hold the helm when the sea is calm. -- Publilius Syrus

 

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Timo Pietilä <timo.pietila@helsinki.fi> writes:

> Cliff Stamp wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2005, devapps wrote:
>>
>>> Well thanks for all the advice. I was curious if I was diving a little
>>> too fast or just doing things horribly wrong and it sounds like I was
>>> just diving too fast.
>> There is no such thing,
>
> Oh, yes there is. If you are new to the game diving that fast is too
> fast. Even if you are veteran diving that fast can be too fast. It
> depends of your playing style.
>
> It takes a _very_ good player to be able to dive as fast as you and
> Eddie do. I'm veteran player and have played this game for around ten
> years now and I still think slowing down at stat-gain is a smart move.
>
> Timo Pietilä

I've tried to keep out of this, but what the heck.

The key difference in my case is that I have let go of the fear of
losing a character. I simply don't mind dying at dLevel 45.

If you go diving past stat-gain, and you die, so long as you learn
something from the experience it was worthwhile, and you just try
again. If you find you are not learning from your deaths, then you
should slow down.

This only makes sense if you are diving quickly to begin with. The
faster you have been diving, the less it costs you to die due to
continued diving. I guess I am trying to say it is self-reinforcing.

It is important to choose your starting stats carefully. However, I
cannot make recommendations -- the best stats to get to dLevel 50 are
not the best stats to get to dLevel 40, which are not the best to get
to dLevel 30! That's part of the learning process -- when you die
try to figure out how different starting stats might have helped to
prevent the death. You will change your opinions over time.

Of course, the subject line says "(mage)", which requires real skill
for diving. IMO mages are the hardest class, and players should try
to win a couple games with other classes before playing seriously with
a mage. [If you want to discuss which classes are easiest and why,
yet again, please start a new thread with a suitable subject!]


Eddie

 

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OK, I bit and started a new thread.

I have no idea how starting stats would have prevented my last mage
death. I learned something about hoarding items (a wand full of
charges doesn't do you any good if you're dead), and I'll be much more
willing to run from a unique and fight them after a few more stat gain
potions, but I've got no idea how better stats would have helped me.

Also, while I can see how it might be true that a different mix of
stats would be important for power diving to different levels. Being a
rather cautious player, I've got no clue as to what those mixes might
be.

 

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Cliff Stamp wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2005, devapps wrote:
>
>> Well thanks for all the advice. I was curious if I was diving a little
>> too fast or just doing things horribly wrong and it sounds like I was
>> just diving too fast.
>
> There is no such thing,

Oh, yes there is. If you are new to the game diving that fast is too
fast. Even if you are veteran diving that fast can be too fast. It
depends of your playing style.

It takes a _very_ good player to be able to dive as fast as you and
Eddie do. I'm veteran player and have played this game for around ten
years now and I still think slowing down at stat-gain is a smart move.

Timo Pietilä

 

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Cliff Stamp wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Sep 2005, [ISO-8859-15] Timo Pietil� wrote:
>
>> Cliff Stamp wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 26 Sep 2005, devapps wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well thanks for all the advice. I was curious if I was diving a little
>>>> too fast or just doing things horribly wrong and it sounds like I was
>>>> just diving too fast.
>>>
>>> There is no such thing,
>>
>> Oh, yes there is. If you are new to the game diving that fast is too
>> fast.
>
> No, you simply need to adjust your style.

No, no style change, just a slowdown at stat-gain. Dive again after.
There is a huge jump at monster deadliness just after 2000'.

If you are new to the game you will just die. And then die. and die. and
die. and learn _nothing_ with that fast playing. There are simply too
many monsters and too many ways to die instantly with mage and ~170 HP
after 2000'.

> Telling him to slow down doesn't help.

Yes it does. It doesn't take long to get that HP high enough and some
other stats as well.

> Offer advice on how to run at that speed if that is how he likes to
> play or wants to.

Then give him that advise. You should know how to play faster than light
chars. I saw your post where you said that diving too fast isn't diving
too fast, but I didn't saw any advice how to dive that fast.

> What you are doing is telling him essentially :
>
> "Yeah, I have tried Halo on Legendary and keep dying, how do you win?"
>
> "That is too hard, adjust the difficulty setting to easy."

Can't comment on that, don't know what kind of game Halo is.

And what's wrong in adjusting your playstyle for short period of time so
that game gets a little bit easier?

Timo Pietilä

 

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On Thu, 29 Sep 2005 12:36:51 -0230, Cliff Stamp wrote:

(snip)
>What you are doing is telling him essentially :
>
>"Yeah, I have tried Halo on Legendary and keep dying, how do you win?"
>
>"That is too hard, adjust the difficulty setting to easy."

Hi Cliff,

I'm not familiar with Halo, but regardless - in many games, the harder
difficulty levels are included to keep the game interesting for
experienced players. So if a less experienced player keeps dying at one
of the harder levels, telling him to master the game with entry-level
difficulty level first would be sound advice.

Best, Hugo
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