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Anonymous
May 14, 2004 12:14:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Just a quick survey to help me with the development of my roguelike.

Reply to the group or to my email (see my sig). Results will be published in
this group. I'll ask the same questions at some other groups as well, if you
use those groups too, please don't reply more than once.

1. Which screen resolution do you use?

2. Do you prefer to play roguelikes in fullscreen or windowed mode? If you
prefer windowed mode, how big should the window be?

3. Do you have MS Windows installed on any of your PCs?

4. Probably a stupid question, but is your CPU speed over 200MHz?

5. Which would you prefer in a roguelike? (reasons for your answers are
welcome)
a) in-depth fixed quests with only one or two quests that you actually have
to complete to win the game - the rest are optional.
b) in-depth fixed quests with one leading to another - ongoing storyline
throughout the game, but usually no way to skip some quests.
c) basic quests but mostly randomly generated with one or two fixed main
quests that you have to complete - others are optional
d) all quests are random including the main quest
e) only one fixed quest, no other quests
f) only one random quest, no other quests - different task each time you
play
g) a randomly chosen quest from a set of fixed quests
h) a choice of storylines/quests offered to the player

6. Do you like to have a lot of control over your game? In the sense of:
changing the user interface layout, inventory style, greeting message,
automatic door opening, redefining keys, etc.

--
Kostatus
kostatus001 at ihug co nz
WoT: http://www.woodsoftorbin.on.to/

More about : survey

Anonymous
May 14, 2004 2:46:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kostatus wrote:
> Just a quick survey to help me with the development of my roguelike.
>
> 1. Which screen resolution do you use?

80X25

> 2. Do you prefer to play roguelikes in fullscreen or windowed mode? If you
> prefer windowed mode, how big should the window be?

fullscreen ;-)

> 3. Do you have MS Windows installed on any of your PCs?

kind of (wine), but for that I would have to start my X-server and I
need some good reasoons for that.

> 4. Probably a stupid question, but is your CPU speed over 200MHz?

unfortunately yes (stupid thing either idles or overheats).

> 5. Which would you prefer in a roguelike? (reasons for your answers are
> welcome)
> a) in-depth fixed quests with only one or two quests that you actually have
> to complete to win the game - the rest are optional.

ITYM something like Crawl or Nethack does? Sounds like the best solution
to me in terms of replay value.

> b) in-depth fixed quests with one leading to another - ongoing storyline
> throughout the game, but usually no way to skip some quests.

The problem with storyline is that once you've seen it it becomes quite
boring. Roguelikes are IMHO designed to keep you playing for years, so
you will see the first part of the storyline a few 100 times before you
reach the endgame.

> c) basic quests but mostly randomly generated with one or two fixed main
> quests that you have to complete - others are optional
> g) a randomly chosen quest from a set of fixed quests
> h) a choice of storylines/quests offered to the player

Depends on the setting of your game. If it has some kind of mercenary
theme random quests are fine, but IMHO it's not a roguelike anymore,
although it can still be a great game. Check Gearhead and Omega for such
character-development-heavy games.

> d) all quests are random including the main quest

Here you will have to elaborate on the 'randomness' of the main quest.
Randomizing the boss character or the uber-artifact at the end of the
game doesn't add much to it.

> 6. Do you like to have a lot of control over your game? In the sense of:
> changing the user interface layout, inventory style, greeting message,
> automatic door opening, redefining keys, etc.

As long as you provide me with hjkl movement and an 80X25 screen
everything is fine interface-wise.

Lars
May 14, 2004 4:01:45 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kostatus .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> 1. Which screen resolution do you use?

1024x768

> 2. Do you prefer to play roguelikes in fullscreen or windowed mode? If you
> prefer windowed mode, how big should the window be?

Windowed, as fullscreen is too big, and I can watch TV during playing.


> 3. Do you have MS Windows installed on any of your PCs?

Yes, five windows'es on three PCs :-).


> 4. Probably a stupid question, but is your CPU speed over 200MHz?

No, yes, yes.


> 5. Which would you prefer in a roguelike? (reasons for your answers are
> welcome)
> e) only one fixed quest, no other quests

It is boring to do the same quests over and over.


> 6. Do you like to have a lot of control over your game? In the sense of:
> changing the user interface layout, inventory style, greeting message,
> automatic door opening, redefining keys, etc.

Sure. More control is always more. ;-)

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php
Related resources
Anonymous
May 15, 2004 1:57:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Fri, 14 May 2004 08:14:59 +0000 (UTC), Kostatus wrote:

>1. Which screen resolution do you use?

1024x768

>2. Do you prefer to play roguelikes in fullscreen or windowed mode? If you
>prefer windowed mode, how big should the window be?

windowed

>3. Do you have MS Windows installed on any of your PCs?

that's the one

>4. Probably a stupid question, but is your CPU speed over 200MHz?

yehyeh

>5. Which would you prefer in a roguelike? (reasons for your answers are
>welcome)

> e) only one fixed quest, no other quests
> f) only one random quest, no other quests - different task each time you
>play
> h) a choice of storylines/quests offered to the player

E sounds good, though I wouldn't mind seeing totally different
missions. Then I'd like to choose them to avoid rerolling, so h with
one main quest as a second.

>6. Do you like to have a lot of control over your game? In the sense of:
>changing the user interface layout, inventory style, greeting message,
>automatic door opening, redefining keys, etc.

Key bindings and automatic door opening are a must. Some way to have
at least 4 last lines of text(if it has text) on the screen would be
good. I hope the other areas can't be screwed up too badly.
Anonymous
May 15, 2004 8:05:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kostatus <to.get.my.email@see.bottom.of.this.post> wrote:
> Just a quick survey to help me with the development of my roguelike.
>
> 1. Which screen resolution do you use?

80x25 ( Occasionally, 80x24 working terminal, due to GNU screen. )

> 2. Do you prefer to play roguelikes in fullscreen or windowed mode? If you
> prefer windowed mode, how big should the window be?

Does rxvt count as windowed mode? ;) 

If I was going to play with tiles (big *if*), I would prefer a 730x600
window (I tend to keep a bar of dockapps running under X).

> 3. Do you have MS Windows installed on any of your PCs?

Technically, yes. Do I play roguelikes on that machine? Not
frequently.

> 4. Probably a stupid question, but is your CPU speed over 200MHz?

My roguelike machine is a Pentium MMX 166Mhz laptop with 96M of memory.

> 5. Which would you prefer in a roguelike? (reasons for your answers are
> welcome)
>
> a) in-depth fixed quests with only one or two quests that you actually have
> to complete to win the game - the rest are optional.
> b) in-depth fixed quests with one leading to another - ongoing storyline
> throughout the game, but usually no way to skip some quests.
> c) basic quests but mostly randomly generated with one or two fixed main
> quests that you have to complete - others are optional
> d) all quests are random including the main quest
> e) only one fixed quest, no other quests
> f) only one random quest, no other quests - different task each time you
> play
> g) a randomly chosen quest from a set of fixed quests
> h) a choice of storylines/quests offered to the player

C & H :

The problem with random quests is that they are hard to do right.

If the quests are going to be random, don't do a stupid "fetch
me $RANDOM_ITEM". At the very least, try riddles for the $RANDOM_ITEM
to fetch.

Scavenger-hunts may be fun (I desire 3 unique things that are blue, for
example).

The storyline/quest idea is also nice (I'm assuming this would be
somewhat like ADOM then), with different quests/choices for different
alignments.

> 6. Do you like to have a lot of control over your game? In the sense of:
> changing the user interface layout, inventory style, greeting message,
> automatic door opening, redefining keys, etc.

I would prefer it if the default keybindings at least resembled some
other popular roguelike. A nifty idea would be to have the keybindings
configurable to different roguelike styles -- say, the choice between an
Angband layout and a Nethack layout. ( Its 3:18am in the morning as I
type this, so if this doesn't work, please ignore. )

I *won't* play a roguelike if I don't have the ability for HJKLYUBN
direction keys.

Being able to color certain strings for inventory, messages, etc, is
nice. For example, being able to configure the roguelike so that all
"blessed" items are in bold white, and all cursed items are in dull red.


The questions you should have asked:

7. What else do you want in a roguelike?

a) Must run on OpenBSD. Crashing every 10 minutes is not running.
[ Crawl seems to be guilty of this lately. ]

b) Speaking of crashing, the roguelike must have the ability to recover
from a crash. Nethack does it nicely. If the roguelike doesn't
have the ability to recover from a crash, I will hunt you down and
kill you when I lose a 40-hour old character due to a blackout.

c) Travel command (nethack's '_' works well, except for water).

d) Some way of making player hitpoint loss obvious would be nice --
Damned if I know how I do it, but I tend to end up ignoring my
hitpoints and not noticing that $BIG_SCARY_MONSTER is dropping my
HP by a 3rd each hit.

e) Objects should interact with each other -- If I dip my longsword in
a potion of healing, something should happen. I should be able to
put rings on pets, and remove those rings later (assuming they have
fingers). Perhaps some pets wouldn't like the attempt, but heck, I
should be able to try.

f) I've been playing a lot of doom legacy lately, and I realized
something: I take preverse pleasure in lining up creatures so that
attacks are misdirected -- resulting in, say, a baron of hell
attacking a heavy weapons guy instead of me. I want to see
roguelikes with this ability. [ OT: I've also been noticing that
I "pillar-dance" in doom. ;)  ]

g) I shouldn't have to spoil myself rotten to have a reasonable
( relative to roguelikes, of course) chance of winning the game.

h) The world should be interesting. It should be self-referencing and
intertwined (assuming a large world). Although this is more for
novels, Patricia Wrede had a set of world-building questions that
are probably worth reading -- Google's I'm Feeling Lucky link gives
me: http://www.io.com/~eighner/world_builder/world_builder_...


8. What other advice do you have?

a) Play all the other roguelikes, just to get an idea.

b) Start small.

c) Release early and release often.

d) Be unique.

Jesse Meyer

--
Want to listen to new music?
Why don't you look at iRATE? icq: 34583382
http://irate.sourceforge.net/ msn: dasunt@hotmail.guess
jabber: dasunt@theoretic.com
Anonymous
May 15, 2004 2:10:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Fri, 14 May 2004 08:14:59 +0000 (UTC), in a fit of madness Kostatus
<to.get.my.email@see.bottom.of.this.post> declared:

>Just a quick survey to help me with the development of my roguelike.

>1. Which screen resolution do you use?

800x600

>2. Do you prefer to play roguelikes in fullscreen or windowed mode? If you
>prefer windowed mode, how big should the window be?

Depends on the roguelike. I play Crawl in a small window, *bands in a
full screen.

>3. Do you have MS Windows installed on any of your PCs?

Yes.

>4. Probably a stupid question, but is your CPU speed over 200MHz?

No.

>5. Which would you prefer in a roguelike? (reasons for your answers are
>welcome)
> a) in-depth fixed quests with only one or two quests that you actually have
>to complete to win the game - the rest are optional.
> b) in-depth fixed quests with one leading to another - ongoing storyline
>throughout the game, but usually no way to skip some quests.
> c) basic quests but mostly randomly generated with one or two fixed main
>quests that you have to complete - others are optional
> d) all quests are random including the main quest
> e) only one fixed quest, no other quests
> f) only one random quest, no other quests - different task each time you
>play
> g) a randomly chosen quest from a set of fixed quests
> h) a choice of storylines/quests offered to the player

I think any of these is workable, except for (b), which would lead to a
sense of linear repetition over multiple games.

>6. Do you like to have a lot of control over your game? In the sense of:
>changing the user interface layout, inventory style, greeting message,
>automatic door opening, redefining keys, etc.

Nice to allow lots of bells and whistles in the form of UI options, but
this should wait until you have a playable game. I don't want to tweak
the UI to perfection and then just wander around a screen.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
May 15, 2004 2:37:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Sat, 15 May 2004 10:10:23 -0700, in a fit of madness R Dan Henry
<danhenry@inreach.com> declared:

>
>Depends on the roguelike. I play Crawl in a small window, *bands in a
>full screen.

Probably should have specified that Crawl is played in a DOS window.
*bands are also DOS, but played in full screen.

--
R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
May 15, 2004 4:53:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Kostatus wrote:
| Just a quick survey to help me with the development of my roguelike.
|
| Reply to the group or to my email (see my sig). Results will be
published in
| this group. I'll ask the same questions at some other groups as well,
if you
| use those groups too, please don't reply more than once.
|
| 1. Which screen resolution do you use?
|

On my Windows machine, 1024x768. On my Linux machine, 800x600.

| 2. Do you prefer to play roguelikes in fullscreen or windowed mode?
If you
| prefer windowed mode, how big should the window be?
|

I prefer to play roguelikes in text mode, ASCII graphics, in a normal
terminal outside of X. Graphical versions just aren't the same.

| 3. Do you have MS Windows installed on any of your PCs?
|

Yes

| 4. Probably a stupid question, but is your CPU speed over 200MHz?
|

Windows machine: 2.8 GHz, Linux machine: 450 MHz

| 5. Which would you prefer in a roguelike? (reasons for your answers are
| welcome)
| a) in-depth fixed quests with only one or two quests that you
actually have
| to complete to win the game - the rest are optional.
| b) in-depth fixed quests with one leading to another - ongoing
storyline
| throughout the game, but usually no way to skip some quests.
| c) basic quests but mostly randomly generated with one or two fixed
main
| quests that you have to complete - others are optional
| d) all quests are random including the main quest
| e) only one fixed quest, no other quests
| f) only one random quest, no other quests - different task each time
you
| play
| g) a randomly chosen quest from a set of fixed quests
| h) a choice of storylines/quests offered to the player
|

D

| 6. Do you like to have a lot of control over your game? In the sense of:
| changing the user interface layout, inventory style, greeting message,
| automatic door opening, redefining keys, etc.
|

I've never heard of that, but that would be a good idea.

- --

With open-source hobby development, such as with roguelikes, there is no
profit involved (except for distributors who sell it on CD). Thus you
should develop for yourself and what you want and not try to please
everyone else. (Unlike commercial software where you have to please the
most people in order to sell.)

- --
- -core_dump
Registered Linux User #334094 <http://counter.li.org&gt;

- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GG/CS/CC d- s-:+ a--- C++ UL+ P L++++ E--- W++(--) N+++ o? K? w(--)
O? M-(--) V? PS+(---) PE(++) Y++ PGP++ t+ 5? X+ R tv b+ DI+ D+(---) G e h!
r-- y--
- ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Segmentation fault (core dumped)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFApksUvetqfsJjmf8RAkV4AJ9M0rQ50BWhFMOefcM6W1uyk4PUBgCcD8gh
U2JgSfmFhbG0nYX5ZNk/F1M=
=WA0P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Anonymous
May 15, 2004 9:44:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kostatus posted to rec.games.roguelike.misc on 5/14/2004:
>1. Which screen resolution do you use?
1024x768

>2. Do you prefer to play roguelikes in fullscreen or windowed mode?
>If you prefer windowed mode, how big should the window be?
I use 80x25 console with 20pt font for Crawl - full screen for *bands

>3. Do you have MS Windows installed on any of your PCs?
Yes

>4. Probably a stupid question, but is your CPU speed over 200MHz?
yes

>5. Which would you prefer in a roguelike? (reasons for your answers
>are welcome)
I have to agree with R Dan Henry. b limits replayability.

>6. Do you like to have a lot of control over your game? In the sense
>of: changing the user interface layout, inventory style, greeting
>message, automatic door opening, redefining keys, etc.
Yes, yes, no, yes, absolutely.
--
-- Mark Engle (remove the beasts to email)
Anonymous
May 16, 2004 4:08:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kostatus <to.get.my.email@see.bottom.of.this.post> growled:

> Just a quick survey to help me with the development of my
> roguelike.

> 1. Which screen resolution do you use?

Huh? I play in a DOS fullscreen. What resolution does that have?
It's 80*43 characters, 14" screen.

> 2. Do you prefer to play roguelikes in fullscreen or windowed
> mode? If you prefer windowed mode, how big should the window be?

Windowed is ok for those games that I'm not used to playing in just
plain DOS (stick that in a window and it looks weird). My prefered
font-size in DOS windows is 10*6, I think it might be a 640*480
resolution (the whole screen).

> 3. Do you have MS Windows installed on any of your PCs?

Eek! Does that matter? I'd not use it to play a roguelike, if that's
what you mean.

> 4. Probably a stupid question, but is your CPU speed over 200MHz?

Unfortunately, yes. I want my 486DX4-100 back!

> 5. Which would you prefer in a roguelike? (reasons for your
> answers are welcome)

> a) in-depth fixed quests with only one or two quests that you
> actually have to complete to win the game - the rest are
> optional.

Yes. (Crawl has all those branches that you don't _have_ to visit, I
like that.)

> b) in-depth fixed quests with one leading to another - ongoing
> storyline throughout the game, but usually no way to skip some
> quests.

And usually no way to get to some other quests once you chose a
path? No thanks. (Adom has that, and I don't like it.)

Reasons for a) and b): I like to go where I want, when I want. I
like freedom.

> c) basic quests but mostly randomly generated with one or two
> fixed main quests that you have to complete -others are optional

Dunno what to make of 'random quests'. What are they like?

> d) all quests are random including the main quest

How does that work?

> e) only one fixed quest, no other quests

Should be a little boring after a while.

I don't think roguelikes are all about quest. You get that in other
RPGs, and they're usually played once and then forgotten. Exception:
Ultima 7 I, that I dig out now and again, despite linear quest, and
always the same plot-lines. It's just fun running around there
again, but compared to a roguelike, which has hardly any plot, I've
almost never played it at all. Maybe a handful of times compared to
>2000. Ok, in U7 the game isn't over just because your character
just got killed. But still, I've finished U7 maybe 3 or 4 times, and
won a roguelike (Nethack, Slash'EM and Crawl wins put together) 28
times, and am still playing Crawl.

In my estimation the re-play value in roguelikes also lies in the
random dungeon levels (please none that vanish as soon as you leave
them as in Angband, though) but more importantly the difficulty, and
the diversity in roles/races. You can try various different
approaches to solving the same problem. Making that possible by
providing diverse options is the secret, IMO. Crawl does that
excellently. Add Nethack's "silly things to do with stuff", to
provide even more paths to go (and please, don't let the endgame get
too easy, but make the early game not unfairly difficult), and
you've got a winner.

Oh, and don't make the game unwinnable through some choice the
character makes. If he likes to switch from good to chaotic, let
him, and give him one or more paths to complete the game that way -
possibly more difficult (as general punishment from the gods or
something), but possible. (I loathe Nethack's alignment system, and
it isn't even consistent.)

> f) only one random quest, no other quests - different task each
> time you play

?

Different tasks available within each game. Let that be decided in
the game, not before you start.

> g) a randomly chosen quest from a set of fixed quests

Could get repetitive. Nethack's Role Quests get boring once you've
done one one or more times.

> h) a choice of storylines/quests offered to the player

To chose from with no option to change your mind afterwards?
Preferably not. (See Nethack alignment...)

> 6. Do you like to have a lot of control over your game? In the
> sense of: changing the user interface layout, inventory style,
> greeting message, automatic door opening, redefining keys, etc.

_Yes!_ (So I can turn auto-door-opening and those counter-intuitive
hjkl keys off, and customize all the rest as well.)

Sticky inventory letters are also a good idea, better yet, pre-set
letters for specific items, so that for example the starting cloak
is on 'V' where I want it, right from the beginning of the game.
Have the options be defined in an init.txt or similar, not within
the game where you have to change them again every new game.

--
Tina the Stinger - a Priest of the Ruffled Needy Glimmer
Anonymous
May 16, 2004 7:04:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

> /me grins evilly. If you're fast enough, rocket launchers make that
> great fun. I remember making the juxtaposed Spider Daemon and the Cyber=20
> Daemon in ... Doom 2 (?) angry at each other. The Cyber Daemon always=20
> won, but he was quite beaten up by then.

Each on its own platform, connected by a narrow "bridge"?

Yep, that was Doom II.

Spider Daemons + Arachnotrons are fun as well.

As well as Arachnotrons + Anything else. ;) 

Its amazing -- that game is roughly a decade old and is still fun to
play (although the Doom Legacy graphics updates are nice).

Jesse Meyer

--
Want to listen to new music?
Why don't you look at iRATE? icq: 34583382
http://irate.sourceforge.net/ msn: dasunt@hotmail.guess
jabber: dasunt@theoretic.com
Anonymous
May 17, 2004 9:40:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On 14-May-04 09:14:59, Kostatus said:

>1. Which screen resolution do you use?

Normally 720x550, but I run programs on their own screens in other
resolutions if they look better that way. I believe I run rogulikes in
lower resolutions than this.

>2. Do you prefer to play roguelikes in fullscreen or windowed mode? If you
>prefer windowed mode, how big should the window be?

Fullscreen, but I choose the size of the screen so that it looks nice
and then set things up so that that program opens on its own screen in
that resolution. Down as low as 320x200 if necessary, I suppose. I
_can_ run 1024x768, but the 24Hz refresh hurts my eyes.

>3. Do you have MS Windows installed on any of your PCs?

No. And I don't typically play roguelikes on a PC at all.

>4. Probably a stupid question, but is your CPU speed over 200MHz?

No. 50 MHz. (on my main machine)

>5. Which would you prefer in a roguelike? (reasons for your answers are
>welcome)
> a) in-depth fixed quests with only one or two quests that you actually have
>to complete to win the game - the rest are optional.
> b) in-depth fixed quests with one leading to another - ongoing storyline
>throughout the game, but usually no way to skip some quests.
> c) basic quests but mostly randomly generated with one or two fixed main
>quests that you have to complete - others are optional
> d) all quests are random including the main quest
> e) only one fixed quest, no other quests
> f) only one random quest, no other quests - different task each time you
>play
> g) a randomly chosen quest from a set of fixed quests
> h) a choice of storylines/quests offered to the player

I guess (a). I liked Might and Magic II, flawed though it was, because
there was any amount of stuff you _could_ do, but very little you
_had_ to do. Though there were random quests in the mix as well, I
think.

>6. Do you like to have a lot of control over your game? In the sense of:
>changing the user interface layout, inventory style, greeting message,
>automatic door opening, redefining keys, etc.

Yes. But I can live without this kind of thing.

--
Adam Atkinson (ghira@mistral.co.uk)
I am never forget the day I first meet great Lobachevsky. In one
word he told me secret of success in mathematics: Plagiarise.
Anonymous
May 17, 2004 1:31:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Sat, 15 May 2004 04:36:40 GMT, Christopher Nehren wrote:

....

>> 1. Which screen resolution do you use?
>
> Text mode or GUI? Which system?

Sorry I didn't clarify - I meant graphics.

> I use everything from 80x25 to 132x25
> for text mode and 1280x1024 for GUI. I'm even known to get bored and
> fiddle around with 800x600 in text mode. If I ever unlazy myself, I'll
> get 80x60 or something on my OpenBSD's text console.
>

....

>
>> 4. Probably a stupid question, but is your CPU speed over 200MHz?
>
> Which?

Doesn't really matter, just trying to get a vague idea of how many people
have these old machines around. So that I can decide whether I should
keep my game low-resourse or whether to do something more adventurous and
resource-draining (like better line of sight for monsters). (I think for
now I'll keep it low-resource as many people seem to like roguelikes to be
low-resource).

> My three _active_ systems are above or equal to that speed, yes;
> but as soon as I acquire my new hard disk, I'll be resurrecting either
> a P150 or a 486 with a disk that's in my 233, maybe both if I'm feeling
> adventurous (/me hugs the BSD ccd driver).
>

....

>
> Basically, I want a Morrowind-esque roguelike, with dozens and dozens
> of _thousands_ of words of story just in books that you find. Something
> like Uru would be great, too. Playing an archaeologist is extremely
> fun. If you could work in random quests in addition to all of that,
> splendid.

Morrowind is a great game, I've been getting a lot of "inspiration" from
it, nothing Morrowindish yet implemented though. However, the depth of the
storyline like in Morrowind (especially the books) would be an unrealistic
goal for me - as I'm more of a programmer than a creative writer, and I
find no fun in writing up storylines when I could be coding instead.

>
> I guess that the closest letters for my answer would be bit of 'a', 'b',
> and 'h'. A game world that changes based upon my actions is something
> that I'll never ever want to stop playing. Interactive and dynamic
> political and economic systems would make me drool like a certain
> popular nuclear safety technician.

Actually something which I thought of doing at later stages (assuming I
ever get there) - at least at a very basic level.

....



--
Kostatus - kostatus001 at ihug co nz
WoT: http://www.woodsoftorbin.on.to/
L:VC++ E+ T+ !R P--- D+ G- F:ADoM/Moria RL+ RLA++ W:F
Q++(+) AI++ GFX++ !SFX RN+++ PO+ Hp++ Re+ S- KG+ c- ?OS
May 17, 2004 4:02:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Christopher Nehren .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> I've been dying
> for a roguelike with a story more detailed than those of adult movies,
> with more intrigue than "go get this item" or "kill this evil monster"
> or an amalgamation of the two.

Try ToME then, it's not bad quests IMO, however is way too long overall.


> Basically, I want a Morrowind-esque roguelike, with dozens and dozens
> of _thousands_ of words of story just in books that you find.

IMO it's rather not possible in freeware game, and I was surprised to find
it in Morrowind also, as normally game developers don't bother with such
"intelligent" stuff and take it easy. Great game.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php
May 17, 2004 4:22:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kostatus .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> Morrowind is a great game, I've been getting a lot of "inspiration" from
> it, nothing Morrowindish yet implemented though. However, the depth of
> the storyline like in Morrowind (especially the books) would be an
> unrealistic goal for me - as I'm more of a programmer than a creative
> writer, and I find no fun in writing up storylines when I could be
> coding instead.

I've got an idea, There are ~RPG games that are based on mailing list,
with well defined world, story, characters and such. Everybody controlls
one or more characters, and decides (in collaboration with others) what
they do and what's the storyline. It lasts for years in RL. So you could
perhaps use the stories written in such games with permission of authors
in you game, that would not require a writing skills from you, but instead
you would have perhaps to modify the world to fit the stories or maybe
even not. I was going to play one of those, but resigned as too much time
would be spend for literacy I prefer to spend in other ways. :) 

I found a link to one:
 l.rec.gry.rpg&hl=en&lr=&ie=U" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://groups.google.com/groups?q=x-men+group:p l.rec.gr...
TF-8&group=pl.rec.gry.rpg&safe=off&selm=a1gc3t%241nv%241%40absinth.dialog.n
et.pl&rnum=1

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php
May 17, 2004 5:31:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jesse Meyer .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> b) Speaking of crashing, the roguelike must have the ability to recover
> from a crash. Nethack does it nicely. If the roguelike doesn't
> have the ability to recover from a crash, I will hunt you down and
> kill you when I lose a 40-hour old character due to a blackout.

Saving at beginning of every level in separate file seems to work nice in
Crawl considering crashes - you will not lose your chara nor items from any
dungeon level.


> d) Some way of making player hitpoint loss obvious would be nice --
> Damned if I know how I do it, but I tend to end up ignoring my
> hitpoints and not noticing that $BIG_SCARY_MONSTER is dropping my
> HP by a 3rd each hit.

PC speaker alert would work fine IMO, however I would prefer some confirm
("Your character is at 10% HP! Hit 'C' to continue...") message for
critical HP, as it's sometimes possible to die just by hitting too many
keys at once when running or when PC *have* to read something from hard
drive for 3 seconds, and the tapped keys are well kept in buffer resulting
in uncontrolled actions after.


> e) Objects should interact with each other -- If I dip my longsword in
> a potion of healing, something should happen. I should be able to
> put rings on pets, and remove those rings later (assuming they have
> fingers). Perhaps some pets wouldn't like the attempt, but heck, I
> should be able to try.

I think that the throne is taken by Nethack. :) 


> f) I've been playing a lot of doom legacy lately, and I realized
> something: I take preverse pleasure in lining up creatures so that
> attacks are misdirected -- resulting in, say, a baron of hell
> attacking a heavy weapons guy instead of me. I want to see
> roguelikes with this ability. [ OT: I've also been noticing that
> I "pillar-dance" in doom. ;)  ]

Crawl is good in that, say you have electrical resistance and facing
electrical eels you can try to direct their harmless shots at other
monsters. It's also frequent that some monsters with piercing magic attacks
to kill others or themselves (with hallfire i.e.).

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php
Anonymous
May 17, 2004 6:35:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> roared:
> Jesse Meyer .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> d) Some way of making player hitpoint loss obvious would be
>> nice -- Damned if I know how I do it, but I tend to end up
>> ignoring my hitpoints and not noticing that
>> $BIG_SCARY_MONSTER is dropping my HP by a 3rd each hit.

> PC speaker alert would work fine IMO, however I would prefer some
> confirm ("Your character is at 10% HP! Hit 'C' to continue...")
> message for critical HP,

That'd just annoy me. Just like the Nethack patch that has you enter
'YES' or something for quit would. Pay attention! If you act
automatically, typing 'YES' isn't all that different from hitting
'y', anyway.

> as it's sometimes possible to die just by hitting too many keys at
> once when running or when PC *have* to read something from hard
> drive for 3 seconds, and the tapped keys are well kept in buffer
> resulting in uncontrolled actions after.

Don't do that, then. In some old Nethack spoiler (I think, one of
the first I got to look at) it said: "Don't lean on keys.". Well,
don't. If you do and you get killed, then it's your fault, not the
game's.

Making the Hp. display red is just fine.

>> e) Objects should interact with each other -- If I dip my
>> longsword in a potion of healing, something should happen.
>> I should be able to put rings on pets, and remove those
>> rings later (assuming they have fingers). Perhaps some pets
>> wouldn't like the attempt, but heck, I should be able to
>> try.

> I think that the throne is taken by Nethack. :) 

Can't follow you here. Where's the connection?

--
Tina the Magician - a Follower of the Reluctantly Nipping Graphic
Anonymous
May 17, 2004 8:23:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>That'd just annoy me. Just like the Nethack patch that has you enter
>'YES' or something for quit would. Pay attention! If you act
>automatically, typing 'YES' isn't all that different from hitting
>'y', anyway.

Ah. That Nethack patch only *ever* asks you to type "YES" instead of
'y' when you try to quit (rather than for any other confirmable action),
IIRC...

m.
--
\_\/_/| Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\ / | She comes like heaven sent her / Like Jesus died upon the cross /
\/ | Such cost / Such loss / She's almost everywhere
------+ -- The Faces Of Sarah, "Fatalistic Warning"
May 17, 2004 9:11:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> PC speaker alert would work fine IMO, however I would prefer some
>> confirm ("Your character is at 10% HP! Hit 'C' to continue...")
>> message for critical HP,
> That'd just annoy me. Just like the Nethack patch that has you enter
> 'YES' or something for quit would. Pay attention! If you act
> automatically, typing 'YES' isn't all that different from hitting
> 'y', anyway.

I mean situation when you press keys too fast or lean on them. Then it
would help avoid danger. No problem in disactivationg that option if you
are so sure about your actions, as soon as it is available. Darshan's
travel patch is great, cause it removes most dangers connected to
unitentional/fast key tapping.


>> as it's sometimes possible to die just by hitting too many keys at
>> once when running or when PC *have* to read something from hard
>> drive for 3 seconds, and the tapped keys are well kept in buffer
>> resulting in uncontrolled actions after.
> Don't do that, then. In some old Nethack spoiler (I think, one of
> the first I got to look at) it said: "Don't lean on keys.". Well,
> don't. If you do and you get killed, then it's your fault, not the
> game's.

It's automatic for human being to repeat actions when you wait for the
effect.

> Making the Hp. display red is just fine.

I do not agree.


>>> e) Objects should interact with each other -- If I dip my
>>> longsword in a potion of healing, something should happen.
>>> I should be able to put rings on pets, and remove those
>>> rings later (assuming they have fingers). Perhaps some pets
>>> wouldn't like the attempt, but heck, I should be able to
>>> try.
>> I think that the throne is taken by Nethack. :) 
> Can't follow you here. Where's the connection?

The connection is simple - usually it's not very interesting to do things
that already exist in excellent shape, either it would be a copy or will be
not so good. I assume Nethack is great in interaction between objects.
Better do something else that's also interesting but novel instead.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php
Anonymous
May 17, 2004 10:46:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> bellowed:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:

>> That'd just annoy me. Just like the Nethack patch that has you
>> enter 'YES' or something for quit would. Pay attention! If you
>> act automatically, typing 'YES' isn't all that different from
>> hitting 'y', anyway.

> Ah. That Nethack patch only *ever* asks you to type "YES"
> instead of 'y' when you try to quit (rather than for any other
> confirmable action), IIRC...

I know. (And I wrote the above knowing that.)

--
Tina the Merry Crawler - a Follower of the Relentless Nauseous Gambler
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 1:00:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> barked:
> Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>> I would prefer some confirm ("Your character is at 10% HP! Hit
>>> 'C' to continue...") message for critical HP,
>> That'd just annoy me. Just like the Nethack patch that has you
>> enter 'YES' or something for quit would. Pay attention! If you
>> act automatically, typing 'YES' isn't all that different from
>> hitting 'y', anyway.

> I mean situation when you press keys too fast or lean on them.

Yes. Don't lean on them. If you do, it's your fault.

> Then it would help avoid danger. No problem in disactivationg
> that option if you are so sure about your actions, as soon as it
> is available.

If you don't learn to be careful, don't blame it on the game's
interface. This is something the player should do.

> Darshan's travel patch is great, cause it removes
> most dangers connected to unitentional/fast key tapping.

Hm? It's great because it's convenient, so I don't have to press all
those keys myself when I drag stuff back to the stash. I'm lazy.

>>> as it's sometimes possible to die just by hitting too many keys
>>> at once when running or when PC *have* to read something from
>>> hard drive for 3 seconds, and the tapped keys are well kept in
>>> buffer resulting in uncontrolled actions after.
>> Don't do that, then. In some old Nethack spoiler (I think, one
>> of the first I got to look at) it said: "Don't lean on keys.".
>> Well, don't. If you do and you get killed, then it's your fault,
>> not the game's.

> It's automatic for human being to repeat actions when you wait
> for the effect.

What? If you can't control your urges, work on them, don't blame
them on the game.

>>>> e) Objects should interact with each other [...]
>>> I think that the throne is taken by Nethack. :) 
>> Can't follow you here. Where's the connection?

> The connection is simple - usually it's not very interesting to
> do things that already exist in excellent shape, either it would
> be a copy or will be not so good. I assume Nethack is great in
> interaction between objects. Better do something else that's also
> interesting but novel instead.

I thought you mean Nethack thrones, and couldn't see the relevance
to rings.

I like interaction between objects. They don't have to be the same
as in Nethack. It's the idea that's nice.

Or (like in U7) also have a way to earn money through a job, like
baking bread and selling the result to a bread-shop.

--
Tina the Pike-Crawler - a Follower of the Repellent Naked Gift
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 1:44:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> bellowed:
>> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>>> That'd just annoy me. Just like the Nethack patch that has you
>>> enter 'YES' or something for quit would. Pay attention! If you
>>> act automatically, typing 'YES' isn't all that different from
>>> hitting 'y', anyway.
>
>> Ah. That Nethack patch only *ever* asks you to type "YES"
>> instead of 'y' when you try to quit (rather than for any other
>> confirmable action), IIRC...
>
>I know. (And I wrote the above knowing that.)

I act automatically with "finger macros" - for example, in Angband, I
think "magic missile that orc" and then type "m1a*t" without further
conscious thought. If I get as far as actually reading a prompt in a
roguelike, I've already been kicked out of automatic mode, so the
paranoia patch would be plenty powerful enough for me.

(I really must learn to type slower when I'm playing Crawl. The number
of wizards I've had die horribly when I fail to cast Throw Flame and hence
walk into a monster instead is kinda embarassing.)

m.
--
\_\/_/| Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\ / | She comes like heaven sent her / Like Jesus died upon the cross /
\/ | Such cost / Such loss / She's almost everywhere
------+ -- The Faces Of Sarah, "Fatalistic Warning"
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 11:54:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> screeched:

[Nethack panic patch just bothersome or helpful?]

> I act automatically with "finger macros" - for example, in
> Angband, I think "magic missile that orc" and then type "m1a*t"
> without further conscious thought. If I get as far as actually
> reading a prompt in a roguelike, I've already been kicked out of
> automatic mode, so the paranoia patch would be plenty powerful
> enough for me.

If 'm1a*t' is no problem typing automatically, what'd be difficult
about typing 'strg+q' and 'YES' automatically?

In-build paranoya and trying to curb your automatic typing serves
you much better.

I've checked things in wizardmode in Nethack often enough, with an
automatically typed quit sequence, that I got paranoyd about
accidentally quitting a normal game, so I saved really slowly,
reading the prompt and all...

> (I really must learn to type slower when I'm playing Crawl. The
> number of wizards I've had die horribly when I fail to cast Throw
> Flame and hence walk into a monster instead is kinda
> embarassing.)

I do that, too, on occaseion, but I get shaked out of it soon
enough. Sometimes even without actual danger, just noticing what I'm
doing.

--
Tina the Earth Mage - a Priest of the Rejuvenating Noodle Gal
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 2:59:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> screeched:
>> I act automatically with "finger macros" - for example, in
>> Angband, I think "magic missile that orc" and then type "m1a*t"
>> without further conscious thought. If I get as far as actually
>> reading a prompt in a roguelike, I've already been kicked out of
>> automatic mode, so the paranoia patch would be plenty powerful
>> enough for me.
>
>If 'm1a*t' is no problem typing automatically, what'd be difficult
>about typing 'strg+q' and 'YES' automatically?

'strg+q'? I always use the '#' key for extended commands in Nethack
(since I play with number_pad *off*), and reaching for the # key is
enough to kick me out of automatic mode because there are other ways to
suffer an *embarassing* mishap (#pray vs. #offer) with extended
commands.

I would never type "YES" automatically when playing Nethack, because no
other prompt requires me to type "YES" and there is no reason for me to
attempt to engrave anything beginning with an 'S' in a game of Nethack,
particularly not after running to the northwest. I could just about see
myself typoing a '#adjust' command, but see above about automatism and
extended commands.

Now, I admit that when quit was 'Q' I did manage to accidentally quit a
character a couple of times :/ 

>In-build paranoya and trying to curb your automatic typing serves
>you much better.
>
>I've checked things in wizardmode in Nethack often enough, with an
>automatically typed quit sequence, that I got paranoyd about
>accidentally quitting a normal game, so I saved really slowly,
>reading the prompt and all...

Fair enough.

>> (I really must learn to type slower when I'm playing Crawl. The
>> number of wizards I've had die horribly when I fail to cast Throw
>> Flame and hence walk into a monster instead is kinda
>> embarassing.)
>
>I do that, too, on occaseion, but I get shaked out of it soon
>enough. Sometimes even without actual danger, just noticing what I'm
>doing.

I should train myself to *never* use the direction keys for aiming but
always use the targeting interface.

m.
--
\_\/_/| Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\ / | mein herz gebuerz die qual ein alleletztes mal
\/ | ein toter musikant spielt das stille lied
------+ -- das ich, "destillat"
May 18, 2004 4:20:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> Yes. Don't lean on them. If you do, it's your fault.
>
> If you don't learn to be careful, don't blame it on the game's
> interface. This is something the player should do.
>
> What? If you can't control your urges, work on them, don't blame
> them on the game.

:-) Fortunately it's the program that should serve the user, not the
reverse.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 6:14:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> screeched:
> Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> If you don't learn to be careful, don't blame it on the game's
>> interface. This is something the player should do.

> :-) Fortunately it's the program that should serve the user, not
> the reverse.

In that case, it shouldn't kill your character when it dies, but
instead reload an old state, for example, either. Why go through the
dungeon at all, why not start with a win straight on?

Not leaning on keys is one of the lessons you have to learn at
roguelikes.

--
Tina the Charlatan - the Champion of the Retarded Neanderthal Gargoyle
May 18, 2004 6:50:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Martin Read .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> I should train myself to *never* use the direction keys for aiming but
> always use the targeting interface.

Not a bad solution IMO is a macro for spell shooting at default target
"Za+." or at least a macro for aiming at default target "Za+" (plus dot or
enter to shoot just after). They will do you no bad, even when spell is
misspelled. More aiming requires the second approach.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 8:52:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> whined:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>> Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> screeched:

>>> I act automatically with "finger macros" - for example, in
>>> Angband, I think "magic missile that orc" and then type "m1a*t"
>>> without further conscious thought. If I get as far as actually
>>> reading a prompt in a roguelike, I've already been kicked out
>>> of automatic mode, so the paranoia patch would be plenty
>>> powerful enough for me.
>>
>> If 'm1a*t' is no problem typing automatically, what'd be
>> difficult about typing 'strg+q' and 'YES' automatically?

> 'strg+q'? I always use the '#' key for extended commands in
> Nethack (since I play with number_pad *off*),

That's cumbersome, reaching over to hit the # key when I can just
use my left hand for the command. And the * isn't really any less
cumbersome, unless you use the one on the numberpad when you're
there already. (Afair the '*' is somewhere on the number row on
English keyboards, but I never remember where exactly.)

> and reaching for the # key is enough to kick me out of automatic
> mode because there are other ways to suffer an *embarassing*
> mishap (#pray vs. #offer) with extended commands.

Prayer is just strg+p (or maybe alt+p, it's been a while), and offer
strg+o (or alt+o), as well. But even reaching over for those things
that need to start with # (the only I can think of is #youpoly,
Slash'EM I think), is pretty automatic.

The point is, one weird sequence of characters isn't any different
from another, when you type automatically.

> I could just about see myself typoing a '#adjust' command, but see
> above about automatism and extended commands.

Strg+a/alt+a? Anyway, that's maybe a quirk of your own way to play
Nethack. In general, it's just one weird set of commands compared to
another, and the lesson to keep in mind is 'don't type
automatically'. The game saving your butt when you should pay
attention to what you're doing goes against the game's spirit, IMO.

It's ok to get a prompt when a typo can instakill you, like walking
into water in Crawl with someone who can't swim/fly, because a typo
can happen occasionally, but a prompt for walking around or when
you're just not paying attention to your hitpoints is silly.

> I should train myself to *never* use the direction keys for
> aiming but always use the targeting interface.

:)  That got much nicer after someone (I think Darshan) told me that
there's actually a targetting feature.

--
Tina the Shifter - a Follower of the Reflective Nonplussed Grindstone
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 9:21:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>Martin Read:
>>I act automatically with "finger macros" - for example, in
>>Angband, I think "magic missile that orc" and then type "m1a*t"
>>without further conscious thought.
>If 'm1a*t' is no problem typing automatically, what'd be difficult
>about typing 'strg+q' and 'YES' automatically?

Obviously one only comes to type things automatically if one regularly
types them non-automatically.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Anonymous
May 18, 2004 9:29:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> whined:
>> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>>> If 'm1a*t' is no problem typing automatically, what'd be
>>> difficult about typing 'strg+q' and 'YES' automatically?
>
>> 'strg+q'? I always use the '#' key for extended commands in
>> Nethack (since I play with number_pad *off*),
>
>That's cumbersome, reaching over to hit the # key when I can just
>use my left hand for the command. And the * isn't really any less
>cumbersome, unless you use the one on the numberpad when you're
>there already. (Afair the '*' is somewhere on the number row on
>English keyboards, but I never remember where exactly.)

Shift-8. Not cumbersome at all. Left pinky on shift, right middle on
8, I can type an asterisk just by thinking "type asterisk" and my
fingers remember how to do it for me. Touch-typing is great.

The point, which you are totally failing to even notice me point out, is
that in Nethack, there is no earthly reason for me to type "YES" in
normal play, so the #quit prompt saying "type YES to quit" would pretty
much guarantee that I never quit by accident.

>> and reaching for the # key is enough to kick me out of automatic
>> mode because there are other ways to suffer an *embarassing*
>> mishap (#pray vs. #offer) with extended commands.
>
>Prayer is just strg+p (or maybe alt+p, it's been a while), and offer
>strg+o (or alt+o), as well.

Exactly. Getting movement commands mixed up is usually only an
annoyance; in a situation where it would be liable to kill me, I
wouldn't be running in automatic mode anyway. Getting #pray and #offer
confused can be quite trivially disastrous.

>But even reaching over for those things
>that need to start with # (the only I can think of is #youpoly,
>Slash'EM I think), is pretty automatic.

Pretty automatic, but it involves actually moving the whole of my hand
in a way that I don't move it very often in the normal run of nethack
play (since I have to reach over, hit '#', type the unique subset of the
command, then reach over again to hit RETURN).

>The point is, one weird sequence of characters isn't any different
>from another, when you type automatically.

Yes it is; for me to type a weird string of characters automatically in
a game would demand there to be some fairly common reason for that
character string to be typed. My automatic typing is generated by force
of habit; there is no common behaviour that involves typing "YES" in
Nethack, so I have no automatic patterning in my brain to do so. My
Nethack fingermacros are things like 'aR' to apply my magic lamp once
I've got one and #adjust'ed it into slot R, 'av' to apply my pick-axe
once I've got one and #adjust'ed it to slot v, etc.

>> I could just about see myself typoing a '#adjust' command, but see
>> above about automatism and extended commands.
>
>Strg+a/alt+a? Anyway, that's maybe a quirk of your own way to play
>Nethack. In general, it's just one weird set of commands compared to
>another, and the lesson to keep in mind is 'don't type
>automatically'. The game saving your butt when you should pay
>attention to what you're doing goes against the game's spirit, IMO.
>
>It's ok to get a prompt when a typo can instakill you, like walking
>into water in Crawl with someone who can't swim/fly, because a typo
>can happen occasionally, but a prompt for walking around or when
>you're just not paying attention to your hitpoints is silly.

Exactly, and I don't *want* a prompt for movement related things beyond
what already exists in Nethack; the "really attack the peaceful foo?"
prompt *adds a gameplay feature*, because Stormbringer disables it).
Angband's "LOW HITPOINT WARNING!" message is nice, though.

A movement typo near water in Nethack can instakill you, of course - but
what are you doing running around while Stressed anyway?

m.
--
\_\/_/| Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\ / | mein herz gebuerz die qual ein alleletztes mal
\/ | ein toter musikant spielt das stille lied
------+ -- das ich, "destillat"
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 1:38:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> croaked:
> Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>> Martin Read:

>>> I act automatically with "finger macros" - for example, in
>>> Angband, I think "magic missile that orc" and then type "m1a*t"
>>> without further conscious thought.
>> If 'm1a*t' is no problem typing automatically, what'd be
>> difficult about typing 'strg+q' and 'YES' automatically?

> Obviously one only comes to type things automatically if one
> regularly types them non-automatically.

Which happens when you use Nethack Wizardmode often to check things,
and with the actual request for the feature; running around and/or
hitting things.

The request for a prompt was for when you get down to 10% Hp or
something in a fight. Someone complained that they often type
automatically without watching what they're doing, and then run into
their death. Which I find well deserved, not deserving a prompt to
stop them from producing a YASD.

--
Tina the Wrestler - a High Priest of the Routinely Neanderthal Ghoul
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 2:10:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Martin Read <mpread # chiark.greenend.org.uk> screamed:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:

<snip digressing into what's cumbersome to type>

> Touch-typing is great.

I learned that, but never got to the numbers, which doesn't bother
me as I rarely type numbers when writing stuff like this. :) 

> The point, which you are totally failing to even notice me point
> out, is that in Nethack, there is no earthly reason for me to
> type "YES" in normal play, so the #quit prompt saying "type YES
> to quit" would pretty much guarantee that I never quit by
> accident.

My point is, that when you're used to typing a particular thing,
which includes the actual command for 'quit', not just the 'YES',
then it doesn't matter whether there are a few more or less letters.
I didn't propose that you quit accidentally, I proposed that you're
used to quitting a game (through lots of Wizardmode testing), and
thus might just quit a normal game that way because it happens
automatically. If you're not used to quitting a game, then you have
no reason to see any value in the patch, because you won't start the
sequence automatically.

If that sequence doesn't apply to you (I only said it'd annoy me
because it not prevent my automatic 'quit-y' sequence, I'd just get
used to 'quit-YES', and get annoyed at the extra key-strokes), then
you might know a better example yourself. This is about stuff that
happens automatically, not what each of us individually types
automatically.

> Getting movement commands mixed up is usually only an annoyance;
> in a situation where it would be liable to kill me, I wouldn't be
> running in automatic mode anyway.

But that is what Loonie2 does, and wants the game to protect him
from.

>> The point is, one weird sequence of characters isn't any
>> different from another, when you type automatically.

> Yes it is; for me to type a weird string of characters
> automatically in a game would demand there to be some fairly
> common reason for that character string to be typed.

We agree on that. See above. My example just didn't apply to you.

<snip>
> Angband's "LOW HITPOINT WARNING!" message is nice, though.

If that's just a message, there's nothing wrong with it. Crawl has
something like that too. It's when you just lean on the key to run
over the orc and get killed by it that you miss it, but that's your
own fault, and shouldn't have a prompt.

> A movement typo near water in Nethack can instakill you, of
> course - but what are you doing running around while Stressed
> anyway?

Heh. My only drowning death was in Slash'EM, Medusa's Level, my
silver dragon (Wawag, what else) beneath me got killed. <sniffle>

--
Tina the Servant - an Initiate of the Roused Numeric Grief
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 3:28:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall wrote:
> Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> screeched:
>
>>Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>
>>>If you don't learn to be careful, don't blame it on the game's
>>>interface. This is something the player should do.
>
>
>>:-) Fortunately it's the program that should serve the user, not
>>the reverse.
>
>
> In that case, it shouldn't kill your character when it dies, but
> instead reload an old state, for example, either. Why go through the
> dungeon at all, why not start with a win straight on?
>
> Not leaning on keys is one of the lessons you have to learn at
> roguelikes.

Why should the interface not make attempts to prevent accidently pressed
keys from killing the game?

Graeme Dice
--
"The world is full of willing people, some willing to work,
the others willing to let them."
-- Robert Frost
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 7:18:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Graeme Dice <grdice@sasktel.net.NOSPAM> growled:
> Tina Hall wrote:

>> Not leaning on keys is one of the lessons you have to learn at
>> roguelikes.

> Why should the interface not make attempts to prevent accidently
> pressed keys from killing the game?

There's a difference between accidentally/typo and automatically/
careless.

--
Tina the Spry - a Priest of the Reversely Nuts Gutter
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 5:00:32 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>My point is, that when you're used to typing a particular thing,
>which includes the actual command for 'quit', not just the 'YES',
>then it doesn't matter whether there are a few more or less letters.

This is "if false then A" again. Who's used to quitting? Not me, and I do
plenty of wizard-mode testing.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 5:02:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> croaked:
>>Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>>>If 'm1a*t' is no problem typing automatically, what'd be
>>>difficult about typing 'strg+q' and 'YES' automatically?
>>Obviously one only comes to type things automatically if one
>>regularly types them non-automatically.
>Which happens when you use Nethack Wizardmode often to check things,

No, it doesn't. How do I know this? I do. There's no reason to quit a
wizard mode game unless you find that your old saved wizard mode game
actually precludes the test you want to carry out.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
May 19, 2004 6:33:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>> Not leaning on keys is one of the lessons you have to learn at
>>> roguelikes.
>> Why should the interface not make attempts to prevent accidently
>> pressed keys from killing the game?
> There's a difference between accidentally/typo and automatically/
> careless.

Games are for fun, not to test the player's cautioness in using game
interface (at least should be ;)  There are other kinds of games for testing
reflexes, roguelikes are turn-based in order to allow *total* control of
game and favour strategy/prevision mostly (but there are exceptions like
Ragnarok for example where you should act rather fast). Total control
paradigm means IMO that leaning on keys should not be punished.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 6:33:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> wrote:
>Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>> There's a difference between accidentally/typo and automatically/
>> careless.
>
>Games are for fun, not to test the player's cautioness in using game
>interface (at least should be ;)  There are other kinds of games for testing
>reflexes, roguelikes are turn-based in order to allow *total* control of
>game and favour strategy/prevision mostly (but there are exceptions like
>Ragnarok for example where you should act rather fast). Total control
>paradigm means IMO that leaning on keys should not be punished.

The game doesn't check that you really want to drink that (identified)
potion of sickness, or read that (identified) scroll of punishment.
Why, then, should it interrupt you from leaning on a key?

m.
--
\_\/_/| Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
\ / | mein herz gebuerz die qual ein alleletztes mal
\/ | ein toter musikant spielt das stille lied
------+ -- das ich, "destillat"
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 7:49:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> whined:
> Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:

>> My point is, that when you're used to typing a particular thing,
>> which includes the actual command for 'quit', not just the
>> 'YES', then it doesn't matter whether there are a few more or
>> less letters.

> This is "if false then A" again.

No, It's 'If you're used to typing a particular thing, then it
happens automatically.'. Where's the problem?

> Who's used to quitting? Not me,

You're jumping around on the wrong cushion. If the example doesn't
apply to you, then it doesn't apply to you. Make up your own, I'm
not prescient. It does apply to me, and thus the extra letters would
annoy me.

> and I do plenty of wizard-mode testing.

Just out of curiosity, how do you finish those games once you've
found your answer?

--
Tina the Grand Master - an Elder of the Raw Nonplussed Grimace
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 7:58:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> whined:
> Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>>> Not leaning on keys is one of the lessons you have to learn at
>>>> roguelikes.
>>> Why should the interface not make attempts to prevent
>>> accidently pressed keys from killing the game?
>> There's a difference between accidentally/typo and
>> automatically/ careless.

> Games are for fun, not to test the player's cautioness in using
> game interface (at least should be ;)  There are other kinds of
> games for testing reflexes, roguelikes are turn-based in order to
> allow *total* control of game and favour strategy/prevision
> mostly (but there are exceptions like Ragnarok for example where
> you should act rather fast). Total control paradigm means IMO
> that leaning on keys should not be punished.

That makes no sense. You're contradicting yourself. _You_ have the
control, so it's up to _you_ to control yourself.

When will you learn that 'Don't lean on keys.' is a vital roguelike
lesson, not some arbitrary comment invented to annoy you. You're
supposed to look out for yourself, because the game is out to get
you.

Next you'll be demaniing the Orb lying on the stairs you take down
to DL:1. "But, I could get killed down in the dungeon, the game
shouldn't do that to me."

Btw, Ragnarok isn't a roguelike, it's an RPG.

--
Tina the Charlatan - a High Priest of the Refined Nitre Gremlin
May 19, 2004 8:42:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Martin Read .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> The game doesn't check that you really want to drink that (identified)
> potion of sickness, or read that (identified) scroll of punishment.
> Why, then, should it interrupt you from leaning on a key?

I suppose that for the same reasons that it asks player before walking into
lava and deep water - because it can kill your character and is rather
unintended, while mentioned above cannot (AFAIK) and are results of planned
actions.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php
Anonymous
May 19, 2004 10:17:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> whined:
>>Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>>>My point is, that when you're used to typing a particular thing,
>>>which includes the actual command for 'quit', not just the
>>>'YES', then it doesn't matter whether there are a few more or
>>>less letters.
>>This is "if false then A" again.
>No, It's 'If you're used to typing a particular thing, then it
>happens automatically.'. Where's the problem?

Almost no-one is used to quitting. In regular play one rarely quits and
people who use wizard mode sensibly do not quit ordinarily.

Therefore the requirement for "yes" helps the vast majority of people;
and, since it's in a third-party patch, need not annoy you.

>>and I do plenty of wizard-mode testing.
>Just out of curiosity, how do you finish those games once you've
>found your answer?

Save, of course.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Anonymous
May 20, 2004 4:10:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> croaked:
> Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>> David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> whined:

>> No, It's 'If you're used to typing a particular thing, then it
>> happens automatically.'. Where's the problem?

> Almost no-one is used to quitting. In regular play one rarely
> quits and people who use wizard mode sensibly do not quit
> ordinarily.

Maybe you think it's sensibly not to quit, I found quit more
practical.

> Therefore the requirement for "yes" helps the vast majority of
> people; and, since it's in a third-party patch, need not annoy
> you.

It was an _example_. I never even had the patch installed, I just
mentioned that it'd annoy me. You're still beating the wrong horse,
one that isn't even there.

Do you think there should be a prompt to keep you from hitting the
orc when you're down to 10% of your Hp? Do you think the game should
keep you from typing ahead when running around in the dungeon? Do
you think the game should show consideration of you leaning on keys?

>>> and I do plenty of wizard-mode testing.
>> Just out of curiosity, how do you finish those games once you've
>> found your answer?

> Save, of course.

That'd have been impractical, because the conditions were more often
different, especially when testing levels I drew up, where I had put
the test-level somewhere in easy reach (DL:2 afair), and needed a
_new_ DL:2 after changing something. Since the previous wizardmode
test had already entered DL:2, I had to quit; 'make a save on the
downstairs of DL:1, restore, "Yes, keep old save file", go
downstairs, check level, quit - oops, no quit because you think
that's not sensible, but I'll need the _other_ save later, what
now?'.

Often it was just 'start game, MMap, Travel to downstairs' because
that doesn't bother me with prompts about old wizardmode save files.

--
Tina the Universal Darts Champion - a Priest of the Reaping Nonsensical
Gingerbread
Anonymous
May 20, 2004 6:33:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall wrote:
> Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> whined:

<snip>

> When will you learn that 'Don't lean on keys.' is a vital roguelike
> lesson, not some arbitrary comment invented to annoy you. You're
> supposed to look out for yourself, because the game is out to get
> you.

The dungeon should be out to get you, not the interface.

> Next you'll be demaniing the Orb lying on the stairs you take down
> to DL:1. "But, I could get killed down in the dungeon, the game
> shouldn't do that to me."

Slippery slopes are popular these days, aren't they.

Graeme Dice
--
"So in conclusion, both technologies are bullshit, but
Star Wars is more powerful BS. It doesn't matter
if it would work or not."
-- Doomriser
Anonymous
May 20, 2004 11:11:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Graeme Dice <grdice@sasktel.net.NOSPAM> barked:
> Tina Hall wrote:

> <snip>

>> When will you learn that 'Don't lean on keys.' is a vital
>> roguelike lesson, not some arbitrary comment invented to annoy
>> you. You're supposed to look out for yourself, because the game
>> is out to get you.

> The dungeon should be out to get you, not the interface.

Eh? If you're too stupid to watch your hitpoints, or run around
blindly without knowing the terrain, the game should protect you!?

I'm not talking about accidental typos, I'm talking about regular
carelessness.

>> Next you'll be demaniing the Orb lying on the stairs you take
>> down to DL:1. "But, I could get killed down in the dungeon, the
>> game shouldn't do that to me."

> Slippery slopes are popular these days, aren't they.

Hm?

--
Tina the Grunt - a Believer of the Reigning Nitre Gazelle
Anonymous
May 20, 2004 6:49:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> croaked:
>>Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>>David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> whined:
>>Almost no-one is used to quitting. In regular play one rarely
>>quits and people who use wizard mode sensibly do not quit
>>ordinarily.
>Maybe you think it's sensibly not to quit, I found quit more
>practical.

Then you're wrong. If you need to test the same situation further, you've
got a saved game with a bunch of the right equipment. If not, the stuff you
already have doesn't generally hurt you.

>>Therefore the requirement for "yes" helps the vast majority of
>>people; and, since it's in a third-party patch, need not annoy
>>you.
>It was an _example_.

And a lousy one, since you picked something that almost no-one learns to
type automatically.

>Do you think there should be a prompt to keep you from hitting the
>orc when you're down to 10% of your Hp?

Did I say anything about that? No.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Anonymous
May 20, 2004 6:59:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall wrote:
> Graeme Dice <grdice@sasktel.net.NOSPAM> barked:
>
>>Tina Hall wrote:
>
>
>><snip>
>
>
>>>When will you learn that 'Don't lean on keys.' is a vital
>>>roguelike lesson, not some arbitrary comment invented to annoy
>>>you. You're supposed to look out for yourself, because the game
>>>is out to get you.
>
>
>>The dungeon should be out to get you, not the interface.
>
>
> Eh? If you're too stupid to watch your hitpoints, or run around
> blindly without knowing the terrain, the game should protect you!?
>
> I'm not talking about accidental typos, I'm talking about regular
> carelessness.

You are talking about accidental typos, since you are complaining about
typing 'yes' instead of 'y' when quitting Nethack. A single keystroke
of y when you meant something else is definetly an accidental typo.

>>>Next you'll be demaniing the Orb lying on the stairs you take
>>>down to DL:1. "But, I could get killed down in the dungeon, the
>>>game shouldn't do that to me."
>
>
>>Slippery slopes are popular these days, aren't they.
>
>
> Hm?

Your argument is a standard one. You are equating improving the
itnerface to prevent accidental deaths with automatically making the
player win.

--
Kids Make Nutritious Snacks
Anonymous
May 20, 2004 9:38:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> growled:
> Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
>> David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> croaked:

>>> Almost no-one is used to quitting. In regular play one rarely
>>> quits and people who use wizard mode sensibly do not quit
>>> ordinarily.
>> Maybe you think it's sensibly not to quit, I found quit more
>> practical.

> Then you're wrong.

There is no right or wrong in this, just preferences.

> If you need to test the same situation further,

What's wrong with you!? I've explained that that's exactly _not_ the
case. Did you fail to read that?

>> Do you think there should be a prompt to keep you from hitting
>> the orc when you're down to 10% of your Hp?

> Did I say anything about that? No.

That's what we're actually talking about. Not whatever invisible
horse you're beating.

--
Tina the Servant - a High Priest of the Rambling Noiseless Gatherer
Anonymous
May 20, 2004 10:23:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Graeme Dice <grdice@sasktel.net.NOSPAM> buzzed:
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> Graeme Dice <grdice@sasktel.net.NOSPAM> barked:

>>> The dungeon should be out to get you, not the interface.
>>
>> Eh? If you're too stupid to watch your hitpoints, or run around
>> blindly without knowing the terrain, the game should protect
>> you!?
>>
>> I'm not talking about accidental typos, I'm talking about
>> regular carelessness.

> You are talking about accidental typos, since you are complaining
> about typing 'yes' instead of 'y' when quitting Nethack.

That's automatic typing, not an accidental typo. It doesn't matter
whether I automatically type the command for quit and then 'yes' or
the same and just a 'y', the extra letters is what'd annoy me.

This is just repeating what I wrote before. Why don't you read what
I'm talking about instead of assuming what you think I might have
written by guessing every second word or something.

> A single keystroke of y when you meant something else is definetly
> an accidental typo.

'Quit' + y isn't a single keystroke, it's a sequence of keystrokes.

--
Tina the Nimble - the Champion of the Rubbery Narcotic Grindstone
Anonymous
May 21, 2004 3:17:17 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall wrote:

> Graeme Dice <grdice@sasktel.net.NOSPAM> buzzed:
>
>>Tina Hall wrote:
>>
>>>Graeme Dice <grdice@sasktel.net.NOSPAM> barked:
>
>
>>>>The dungeon should be out to get you, not the interface.
>>>
>>>Eh? If you're too stupid to watch your hitpoints, or run around
>>>blindly without knowing the terrain, the game should protect
>>>you!?
>>>
>>>I'm not talking about accidental typos, I'm talking about
>>>regular carelessness.
>
>
>>You are talking about accidental typos, since you are complaining
>>about typing 'yes' instead of 'y' when quitting Nethack.
>
>
> That's automatic typing, not an accidental typo. It doesn't matter
> whether I automatically type the command for quit and then 'yes' or
> the same and just a 'y', the extra letters is what'd annoy me.

Anytime that you type a single y when you don't mean it is an accidental
typo.

> This is just repeating what I wrote before. Why don't you read what
> I'm talking about instead of assuming what you think I might have
> written by guessing every second word or something.

What, exactly, do you have against the interface protecting people at
least partially from their own mistakes? I take it that you would also
prefer Crawl to no longer prompt you if you really wanted to step into
lava or deep water. After all, such an action is clearly protecting the
player from their carelessness.

>>A single keystroke of y when you meant something else is definetly
>>an accidental typo.
>
>
> 'Quit' + y isn't a single keystroke, it's a sequence of keystrokes.

So what? Typing y when you didn't mean to is still a single keystroke.

Graeme Dice
--
"You do not really understand something unless you can explain it
to your grandmother."
-- Albert Einstein.
!