[Crawl] AC vs. Evasion

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

I wanted people's thoughts on AC vs. Evasion in Dungeon Crawl. I
understand that AC reduces the damage that you'll take when you are
hit, and Evasion will help keep you from being hit. But, for you game
winners, which is the better investment for survivability? Is it
strictly based on the class of your character? For example, should
fighter-types always favor AC, since they are always in the thick of
it, and mage-types always favor evasion, since they are more flee and
shoot?

Let me give you a specific example. Gronk is a level 7 Minotaur Chaos
Knight. He's bashing things with a hammer of protection at the moment
(+5 to AC). Now, he has a nice, sturdy suit of plate mail that gives
him AC 15, Evasion 10. He also has an artifact suit of leather armor
that is +3, with +3 to evasion, that gives him AC 10, Evasion 18 (it
also has negative energy protection and allows him to blink).

Now, it seemed like the leather was the better deal. First, he has
those nifty, optional extras that might save his life one day.
Second, if you treat AC and evasion equally, the plate mail gives 25
(15AC+10Ev), where the leather gives 28 (10AC+18Ev). But, a recent
disagreement with an orc warrior put quite a few nicks into the
leather armor, and made the plate look tempting again.

Any thoughts? (apologies in advance and please ignore this thread if
this is a tired topic on this board)

Thanks

JMB

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"JMB" <gopherenchanter@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:664fdf2c.0405171101.622b9d2a@posting.google.com...
> I wanted people's thoughts on AC vs. Evasion in Dungeon Crawl. I
> understand that AC reduces the damage that you'll take when you are
> hit, and Evasion will help keep you from being hit. But, for you game
> winners, which is the better investment for survivability? Is it
> strictly based on the class of your character? For example, should
> fighter-types always favor AC, since they are always in the thick of
> it, and mage-types always favor evasion, since they are more flee and
> shoot?
>
> Let me give you a specific example. Gronk is a level 7 Minotaur Chaos
> Knight. He's bashing things with a hammer of protection at the moment
> (+5 to AC). Now, he has a nice, sturdy suit of plate mail that gives
> him AC 15, Evasion 10. He also has an artifact suit of leather armor
> that is +3, with +3 to evasion, that gives him AC 10, Evasion 18 (it
> also has negative energy protection and allows him to blink).
>
> Now, it seemed like the leather was the better deal. First, he has
> those nifty, optional extras that might save his life one day.
> Second, if you treat AC and evasion equally, the plate mail gives 25
> (15AC+10Ev), where the leather gives 28 (10AC+18Ev). But, a recent
> disagreement with an orc warrior put quite a few nicks into the
> leather armor, and made the plate look tempting again.

One thing is, heavy armor provides more protection than light armor -- I
think the way it works is an AC of 10 from light armor will block 1-10
points of damage, while an AC 10 from heavy armor will always block at
least 5 points of damage. I'm counting on someone with an understanding of
the source to correct this, which I'm almost positive is right in general
principle, but wrong in detail. And I have no idea how magical plusses,
scales, rings and weapons of protection, etc., figure into this.

I usually train dodging for as long as I can, and then switch to armor
later in the game, like when I find a really nice artifact or a dragon
armor, since it's safer to walk around with light armor early than late,
and it's nice to have both skills. I think minotaurs learn Armor much more
easily than Dodge, though, so it might be more worth it to wear the plate
mail. You lose most of the evasion bonus from Dodging until you get your
Armor skill up, keep in mind.

An additional consideration is that powerful monsters don't miss very
often, even with high EV. Anyway, I'd wear the leather, particularly for
the blinking, and figure out a way to kill the orc warriors and ogres and
whatnot from afar (poisoned needles work well), at least for a while.

--Jeremey

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jeremey Wilson .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> One thing is, heavy armor provides more protection than light armor -- I
> think the way it works is an AC of 10 from light armor will block 1-10
> points of damage, while an AC 10 from heavy armor will always block at
> least 5 points of damage. I'm counting on someone with an understanding of
> the source to correct this, which I'm almost positive is right in general
> principle, but wrong in detail. And I have no idea how magical plusses,
> scales, rings and weapons of protection, etc., figure into this.

Blocking is done by shields so such terminology could introduce confusion -
let's say that AC reduces damage. The amount reduced by AC doesn't depend
on the type of armour used but only on final AC score of character. The
amount reduced could be from 0 up to character AC, and is randomized so the
average is AC/2.


> I usually train dodging for as long as I can, and then switch to armor
> later in the game, like when I find a really nice artifact or a dragon
> armor, since it's safer to walk around with light armor early than late,
> and it's nice to have both skills. I think minotaurs learn Armor much more
> easily than Dodge, though, so it might be more worth it to wear the plate
> mail. You lose most of the evasion bonus from Dodging until you get your
> Armor skill up, keep in mind.

Talking about evasion stat - this is not really good approach, because
Armour skill could reduce only the base evasion penalty of body armour
(each three points of armour skill neutralize one negative point of base
evasion from body armour). When wearing heavy armour the bonus from dodging
skill is severely reduced:

*Dodging when wearing light body armour*
evasion_bonus = Dodging Skill / 2

*Dodging when wearing heavy body armour*
evasion _bonus = (Dodging Skill / 2) + (Armor EV (negative)*1.4)
(applied only if positive)

.... so it's not interesting to spend exp on Evasion skill when most of it
is later not used. I would suggest instead as soon as possible change to
the armour type you are planning to wear (talking about light/heavy
classification), and keep to it.


> An additional consideration is that powerful monsters don't miss very
> often, even with high EV.

They also tend to do good damage, so the choice is not obvious. The
reason is that it is very randomized, so AC could reduce 0 regardless of
how much steel you wear, and similarly randomized is the hitting
determination.

For details about AC, EV and blocking see
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/defense.php

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

JMB .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> I wanted people's thoughts on AC vs. Evasion in Dungeon Crawl. I
> understand that AC reduces the damage that you'll take when you are
> hit, and Evasion will help keep you from being hit. But, for you game
> winners, which is the better investment for survivability? Is it
> strictly based on the class of your character? For example, should
> fighter-types always favor AC, since they are always in the thick of
> it, and mage-types always favor evasion, since they are more flee and
> shoot?

Yes I think that's the deal most of the time.
Fighters have no real choice but to get close and bash, so they need
protection from similar strategy of fighting monsters. They are sensible
to ranged attacks, especially magical, as most elemental damage (fire,
cold, electricity, poison) is no influenced by AC. The good strategy for
them is to take cover and lure monsters into close combat. What is really
needed by fighters are resistances, as they will allow them survive magical
attack, while they can deal with the physical themselves.
Mages on contrary attack well at range, but they are very susceptible to
melee fighting, as most of the time they cannot wear heavy armour because
it hinders spellcasting (BTW: kind of historical game developers
compromise, there is no quasi-real reason for that assumption, it's here
just not to give magic too much power). So the strategy for them is to
avoid close combat (inflicting mortal damage fast, blinking, hasting,
teleporting, hindering monsters abilities).
Ranged attackers (hunters) are somewhere between as I suppose they
cannot inflict mortal damage fast enough - or at least not to many powerful
monsters at once - to avoid close combat. They are however not limited in
armour so could either melee or undertake magical sources of avoiding close
combat (say blink).


> Let me give you a specific example. Gronk is a level 7 Minotaur Chaos
> Knight. He's bashing things with a hammer of protection at the moment
> (+5 to AC). Now, he has a nice, sturdy suit of plate mail that gives
> him AC 15, Evasion 10. He also has an artifact suit of leather armor
> that is +3, with +3 to evasion, that gives him AC 10, Evasion 18 (it
> also has negative energy protection and allows him to blink).
>
> Now, it seemed like the leather was the better deal. First, he has
> those nifty, optional extras that might save his life one day.
> Second, if you treat AC and evasion equally, the plate mail gives 25
> (15AC+10Ev), where the leather gives 28 (10AC+18Ev). But, a recent
> disagreement with an orc warrior put quite a few nicks into the
> leather armor, and made the plate look tempting again.

Well, the *real* problem is the prevision what you will use in future. As a
Minotaur Chaos Knight you are obviously better in melee, and I suppose
that's the way you play. No point then in using leather armour that offers
little AC protection and what is more: artifacts cannot be enchanted, so it
will rest at +3 for the whole game. Plate mail is more useful for a fighter
surely, your problem is that you've used light armour too much and have
Armour skill at 0 or 1 while your evasion is rather high (too lazy to
count). That what makes the difference (25 vs 28). Talking about future:
your plate armour will give you extra 9/15 points of AC for each point of
Armour skill; so for Armour skill 15 you will have 18AC with Evasion change
from body armour equal to 0 (base AC -5 totally neutralized by Armour
skill). Leather armour will look exactly the same, just you will develop
few additional points of evasion from Evasion skill (1 point of Evasion for
each point of skill). So in perspective - especially regarding melee way
you play - the heaviest armour possible is the better (would like someday
that eyes of my fighter saw Crystal Plate Mail .

PS To clear things - heavy armour trains *only* Armour skill, while light
armour trains *only* Dodging skill. You have to choose.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/defense.php

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Many thanks, seems like sound advice. Perhaps the greatest element I
was missing was being so forward-thinking in what the character would
ultimately be (perhaps because most of my char become grease spots,
anyway .

Thanks again.

JMB

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Loonie" <loonie2@tlen.pl> wrote in message
newsmzebsnc70v4.dlg@Loonie.pl.fr...
> Jeremey Wilson .-- .-. --- - . ---...
> Blocking is done by shields so such terminology could introduce
confusion -
> let's say that AC reduces damage. The amount reduced by AC doesn't depend
> on the type of armour used but only on final AC score of character. The
> amount reduced could be from 0 up to character AC, and is randomized so
the
> average is AC/2.

I was relying on old posts, which seem to indicate that heavy armor
provides more protection. Quick googling:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=865acp%24t5%241%40w
atserv3.uwaterloo.ca

But that's pretty old... It's been changed, I guess?

> Talking about evasion stat - this is not really good approach, because
> Armour skill could reduce only the base evasion penalty of body armour
> (each three points of armour skill neutralize one negative point of base
> evasion from body armour). When wearing heavy armour the bonus from
dodging
> skill is severely reduced:
>
> *Dodging when wearing light body armour*
> evasion_bonus = Dodging Skill / 2
>
> *Dodging when wearing heavy body armour*
> evasion _bonus = (Dodging Skill / 2) + (Armor EV (negative)*1.4)
> (applied only if positive)
>
> ... so it's not interesting to spend exp on Evasion skill when most of it
> is later not used. I would suggest instead as soon as possible change to
> the armour type you are planning to wear (talking about light/heavy
> classification), and keep to it.

I usually end up wearing Dragon or Ice Dragon armor; if I understand
correctly, the penalty isn't much: -2 or -3, depending on how it rounds.
But if the plan is to switch to Crystal Plate, you're right. I think I've
only seen a Crystal Plate once or twice, though, and usually by the time I
see a Gold Dragon I've decided on my final suit and started enchanting it.
But you're right for very heavy armors.

> > An additional consideration is that powerful monsters don't miss very
> > often, even with high EV.
>
> They also tend to do good damage, so the choice is not obvious. The
> reason is that it is very randomized, so AC could reduce 0 regardless of
> how much steel you wear, and similarly randomized is the hitting
> determination.
>
> For details about AC, EV and blocking see
> http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/defense.php

Thank you. I've been looking for something like that.

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> just you will develop
> few additional points of evasion from Evasion skill (1 point of Evasion for
> each point of skill).

Erratum: should be one point of Evasion for *two* points of Evasion skill.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jeremey Wilson .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> I was relying on old posts, which seem to indicate that heavy armor
> provides more protection. Quick googling:
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=865acp%24t5%241%40w
> atserv3.uwaterloo.ca
> But that's pretty old... It's been changed, I guess?

Yes, it's four years old and seems to concern version 3.4 while I'm basing
on source code for version 4.00 beta 26, that is up-to-date AFAIK.


>> Talking about evasion stat - this is not really good approach, because
>> Armour skill could reduce only the base evasion penalty of body armour
>> (each three points of armour skill neutralize one negative point of base
>> evasion from body armour). When wearing heavy armour the bonus from
>> dodging
>> skill is severely reduced:
>> *Dodging when wearing light body armour*
>> evasion_bonus = Dodging Skill / 2
>> *Dodging when wearing heavy body armour*
>> evasion _bonus = (Dodging Skill / 2) + (Armor EV (negative)*1.4)
>> (applied only if positive)
>> ... so it's not interesting to spend exp on Evasion skill when most of it
>> is later not used. I would suggest instead as soon as possible change to
>> the armour type you are planning to wear (talking about light/heavy
>> classification), and keep to it.
>
> I usually end up wearing Dragon or Ice Dragon armor; if I understand
> correctly, the penalty isn't much: -2 or -3, depending on how it rounds.

With (Ice) Dragon Armour you have potentially:
-2EV from base_bodyarmour_EV (neutralized up from Armour skill 6)

-3EV if you are already skilled with dodging (in that case minuses could
be rounded up, pluses are always down), so with Dodging skill 0-7 you don't
have any bonus to Evasion, on skill 8 you receive +1EV, skill 10 +2EV and
so on.
BTW Trolls have no option for heavy armour until dragon armour is found and
end up with Evasion skill 16. Well, except troll armour maybe, it's
considered heavy, but it doesn't add regeneration for trolls. For skill
training reasons it's not a bad idea IMO if your troll is aiming at very
heavy dragon armours.


> But if the plan is to switch to Crystal Plate, you're right. I think I've
> only seen a Crystal Plate once or twice, though, and usually by the time I
> see a Gold Dragon I've decided on my final suit and started enchanting it.
> But you're right for very heavy armors.

Recently found Gold Dragon Armour - not deep, laying peacefully on the
ground in Lair 4(?) with my SE specialized in unarmed combat. Picked up,
wore, +0, dropped down, cursed on RNG.


>> For details about AC, EV and blocking see
>> http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/defense.php
> Thank you. I've been looking for something like that.

That's what I hoped when writing that.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> wrote in message news:<omzebsnc70v4.dlg@Loonie.pl.fr>...

> Blocking is done by shields so such terminology could introduce confusion -
> let's say that AC reduces damage. The amount reduced by AC doesn't depend
> on the type of armour used but only on final AC score of character. The
> amount reduced could be from 0 up to character AC, and is randomized so the
> average is AC/2.

that's disappointing; it's totally random; devteam please note, an
addition of two random factors would make the behavior more "normal,
with the most common finding being in the middle, and extremes much
less probable.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Tue, 18 May 2004 13:58:38 +0200, Loonie wrote:

>Blocking is done by shields so such terminology could introduce confusion -
>let's say that AC reduces damage. The amount reduced by AC doesn't depend
>on the type of armour used but only on final AC score of character. The
>amount reduced could be from 0 up to character AC, and is randomized so the
>average is AC/2.

From Crawl 4.0.0b26 source, attack.cc, line 2096:

if (ac > 0)
{
int damage_reduction = random2(ac + 1);

if (!player_light_armour())
{
const int body_arm_ac = property(
you.inv[you.equip[EQ_BODY_ARMOUR]],
PARM_AC );

int percent = 2 * (you.skills[SK_ARMOUR] +
body_arm_ac);

if (percent > 50)
percent = 50;

int min = 1 + (damage_size * percent) / 100;

if (min > ac / 2)
min = ac / 2;

if (damage_reduction < min)
damage_reduction = min;
}

damage_taken -= damage_reduction;
}


Here we can see that heavy armour hasn't changed. (how could it have,
without updates)
It absorbs a steady percentile amount from each hit you take, unlike
light armour. The amount depends on the armour's AC, your armour skill
and maxes at half damage.
I can testify that it works, having survived battling a 20-headed
hydra.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> moaned:

> BTW Trolls have no option for heavy armour until dragon armour is
> found and end up with Evasion skill 16.

Why that?

> Well, except troll armour maybe, it's considered heavy, but it
> doesn't add regeneration for trolls. For skill training reasons
> it's not a bad idea IMO if your troll is aiming at very heavy
> dragon armours.

Swamp dragon armour is heavy armour (though not as weighty as other
dragon armours), and gives poison resistance.

> Recently found Gold Dragon Armour - not deep, laying peacefully
> on the ground in Lair 4(?) with my SE specialized in unarmed
> combat. Picked up, wore, +0, dropped down, cursed on RNG.

What's wrong with +0?

--
Tina the Firebug - an Initiate of the Roaring Nostalgic Gipsy

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> BTW Trolls have no option for heavy armour until dragon armour is
>> found and end up with Evasion skill 16.
> Why that?

Because no heavy bodyarmour except Dragonlike and Troll Armour fits them,
and when they want to put on Storm Gold Dragon armour most or all
evasion_skill bonuses to EV is lost (up to level 14 for Storm and all for
Gold).


>> Well, except troll armour maybe, it's considered heavy, but it
>> doesn't add regeneration for trolls. For skill training reasons
>> it's not a bad idea IMO if your troll is aiming at very heavy
>> dragon armours.
> Swamp dragon armour is heavy armour (though not as weighty as other
> dragon armours), and gives poison resistance.

You have right: the dragons -2EV are the alternative - some evasion lost
but not all.


>> Recently found Gold Dragon Armour - not deep, laying peacefully
>> on the ground in Lair 4(?) with my SE specialized in unarmed
>> combat. Picked up, wore, +0, dropped down, cursed on RNG.
> What's wrong with +0?

That's the wrong character type, I was too advanced to change completely
fighting from unarmed to armed just to wear that nifty and rare armour.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jason Northrup .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> Blocking is done by shields so such terminology could introduce confusion -
>> let's say that AC reduces damage. The amount reduced by AC doesn't depend
>> on the type of armour used but only on final AC score of character. The
>> amount reduced could be from 0 up to character AC, and is randomized so the
>> average is AC/2.
> that's disappointing; it's totally random; devteam please note, an
> addition of two random factors would make the behavior more "normal,
> with the most common finding being in the middle, and extremes much
> less probable.

Crawl source uses sometimes also other distributions: two (like you said)
or even three random factors. Well, on one hand: some distribution more
close to Gaussian may be more intuitive, but on the other hand: armour
doesn't cover all the body. For an argument there is always a
contra-argument.

That reminds me about the medieval fights I read about - knights(?) were in
heavy plate(?) armour, so to get through it they needed big swords they
grab with one hand at handle and second in the half of the longtitude, then
they stabbed at each other, because other fighting techniques, like cut
didn't get through the steel.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Lauri Vallo .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>Blocking is done by shields so such terminology could introduce confusion -
>>let's say that AC reduces damage. The amount reduced by AC doesn't depend
>>on the type of armour used but only on final AC score of character. The
>>amount reduced could be from 0 up to character AC, and is randomized so the
>>average is AC/2.

> From Crawl 4.0.0b26 source, attack.cc, line 2096:
>...
> Here we can see that heavy armour hasn't changed. (how could it have,
> without updates)
> It absorbs a steady percentile amount from each hit you take, unlike
> light armour. The amount depends on the armour's AC, your armour skill
> and maxes at half damage.
> I can testify that it works, having survived battling a 20-headed
> hydra.

You have right, I skipped that piece of code as rather mysterious when
reading and forgot about it later. Nice to learn something new and sorry
for misinformation.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jason Northrup .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> Blocking is done by shields so such terminology could introduce confusion -
>> let's say that AC reduces damage. The amount reduced by AC doesn't depend
>> on the type of armour used but only on final AC score of character. The
>> amount reduced could be from 0 up to character AC, and is randomized so the
>> average is AC/2.
> that's disappointing; it's totally random; devteam please note, an
> addition of two random factors would make the behavior more "normal,
> with the most common finding being in the middle, and extremes much
> less probable.


Err... I was just converted by Lauri Vallo and discovered my mistake about
AC reduction: stated above is true only for light armour, while heavy
armour protects character a steady percentage:

"It absorbs a steady percentile amount from each hit you take, unlike
light armour. The amount depends on the armour's AC, your armour skill
and maxes at half damage." - by Lauri

percent_reduced = 2 * (ARMOUR_skill + body_arm_base_ac)

So it's not random at all.


Crawl source uses sometimes also other distributions: two (like you said)
or even three random factors. Well, on one hand: some distribution more
close to Gaussian may be more intuitive, but on the other hand: armour
doesn't cover all the body. For an argument there is always a
contra-argument.

That reminds me about the medieval fights I read about - knights(?) were in
heavy plate(?) armour, so to get through it they needed big swords they
grab with one hand at handle and second in the half of the longtitude, then
they stabbed with full impact at each other, because other fighting
techniques, like cut didn't get through the steel.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> shouted:
> Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>> BTW Trolls have no option for heavy armour until dragon armour
>>> is found and end up with Evasion skill 16.
>> Why that?

> Because no heavy bodyarmour except Dragonlike and Troll Armour
> fits them,

Why should Evasion get to 16 because of that?

>> Swamp dragon armour is heavy armour (though not as weighty as
>> other dragon armours), and gives poison resistance.

> You have right: the dragons -2EV are the alternative - some
> evasion lost but not all.

I meant that swamp dragon armour can be gotten relatively early,
before half the game is over.

>>> Recently found Gold Dragon Armour - not deep, laying peacefully
>>> on the ground in Lair 4(?) with my SE specialized in unarmed
>>> combat. Picked up, wore, +0, dropped down, cursed on RNG.
>> What's wrong with +0?

> That's the wrong character type, I was too advanced to change
> completely fighting from unarmed to armed just to wear that nifty
> and rare armour.

Why switch from unarmed to armed?

--
Tina the Unseen - the Champion of the Reptile Nutty Gas

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>>> BTW Trolls have no option for heavy armour until dragon armour
>>>> is found and end up with Evasion skill 16.
>>> Why that?
>> Because no heavy bodyarmour except Dragonlike and Troll Armour
>> fits them,
> Why should Evasion get to 16 because of that?

Because they have to wear light armour, what trains evasion and stealth
(but stealth is so heavy for trolls that they hardly get few points).


>>> Swamp dragon armour is heavy armour (though not as weighty as
>>> other dragon armours), and gives poison resistance.
>> You have right: the dragons -2EV are the alternative - some
>> evasion lost but not all.
> I meant that swamp dragon armour can be gotten relatively early,
> before half the game is over.

I don't feel that it's easier than other -2EV dragonlikes, except if you go
to swamp.


>> That's the wrong character type, I was too advanced to change
>> completely fighting from unarmed to armed just to wear that nifty
>> and rare armour.
> Why switch from unarmed to armed?

Unarmed fighting when wearing such armour is very inefficient.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> screeched:
> Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>> Because no heavy bodyarmour except Dragonlike and Troll Armour
>>> fits them,
>> Why should Evasion get to 16 because of that?

> Because they have to wear light armour, what trains evasion and
> stealth (but stealth is so heavy for trolls that they hardly get
> few points).

So apart from that, there's also no reason not to turn off Evasion
to prevent it from getting to such a ridiculously high level when
you don't plan on light armour in the late game. I ask again, how
should it get to 16 in that case?

>> I meant that swamp dragon armour can be gotten relatively early,
>> before half the game is over.

> I don't feel that it's easier than other -2EV dragonlikes, except
> if you go to swamp.

The Swamp is a quite reasonable place to go after clearing the Lair.

--
Tina the Seer - the Favourite Plaything of the Regulating Naked Genius

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>>> Because no heavy bodyarmour except Dragonlike and Troll Armour
>>>> fits them,
>>> Why should Evasion get to 16 because of that?
>> Because they have to wear light armour, what trains evasion and
>> stealth (but stealth is so heavy for trolls that they hardly get
>> few points).
> So apart from that, there's also no reason not to turn off Evasion
> to prevent it from getting to such a ridiculously high level when
> you don't plan on light armour in the late game. I ask again, how
> should it get to 16 in that case?

There is no reason. This will not stop that skill completely however.


>>> I meant that swamp dragon armour can be gotten relatively early,
>>> before half the game is over.
>> I don't feel that it's easier than other -2EV dragonlikes, except
>> if you go to swamp.
> The Swamp is a quite reasonable place to go after clearing the Lair.

You need levitation and poison resistance plus nice firepower to deal with
hydras. I go to Swamp after Snake Pit and Elven Halls. There is not much
interesting stuff except the rune (however I found Golden Dragon Armour of
the King once there .

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/traps.php

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> whined:
> Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> So apart from that, there's also no reason not to turn off
>> Evasion to prevent it from getting to such a ridiculously high
>> level when you don't plan on light armour in the late game. I
>> ask again, how should it get to 16 in that case?

> There is no reason. This will not stop that skill completely
> however.

Hm? I'm still only trying to make sense from what you wrote:

-------->
BTW Trolls have no option for heavy armour until dragon armour is
found and end up with Evasion skill 16.
<--------

[swamp draong armour]
>> The Swamp is a quite reasonable place to go after clearing the
>> Lair.

> You need levitation

No you don't need Levitation, it's just useful.

> and poison resistance

No you don't _need_ poison resistance, it's just helpful, and there
are other ways to counter the problem of no poison resistance. Going
into the Swamp to actually get poison resistance in the first place
is a reasonable strategy.

Afair I've read of people completing the Snake Pit without poison
resistance, even.

> plus nice firepower to deal with hydras.

You find them in the Lair, too, and wherever else you go, you're
better off with nice firepower anyway.

> I go to Swamp after Snake Pit and Elven Halls.

!? Elven Halls, especially the bottom, is a lot more dangerous than
the Swamp, so that seems rather unwise. You might as well say that
you do the Vaults before the Lair.

The Snake Pit requires poison resistance far more than the Swamp,
and I'd only do it first when I have poison resistance because I
don't like the cumbersome environment of the Swamp.

> There is not much interesting stuff except the rune (however I
> found Golden Dragon Armour of the King once there .

It has a rune, some random items, possibly shops, and could provide
you with a heavy armour that isn't too heavy, relatively early,
before half the game is over.

To sum up, you don't explain _why_ a troll should end up with
Evasion 16 when he plans to wear heavy armour instead, and there's a
possiblity to aquire a not too weighty heavy armour with a useful
property (poison resistance) to train with fairly early in the game.

--
Tina the Slicer - an Elder of the Religiously Nimble Gremlin

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote in message
news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_24cb8e0d@fidonet.org...
> The Snake Pit requires poison resistance far more than the Swamp,
> and I'd only do it first when I have poison resistance because I
> don't like the cumbersome environment of the Swamp.

Not at all. A good evasion or Deflect/Repel Missiles will keep you from
getting poisoned much in the Snake Pit. You have to deal with clouds of
poison in the Swamp. And you'd be very foolish to go into the Swamp
without either poison resistance or a way to avoid confusion.

--
--Jeremey

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jeremey Wilson <noaddressgiven@yahoo.com> screeched:
> "Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote in message
> news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_24cb8e0d@fidonet.org...

>> The Snake Pit requires poison resistance far more than the
>> Swamp, and I'd only do it first when I have poison resistance
>> because I don't like the cumbersome environment of the Swamp.

> Not at all.

Of course that is the case. How could you possibly say what I like
or don't like?

> A good evasion or Deflect/Repel Missiles will keep you from
> getting poisoned much in the Snake Pit. You have to deal with
> clouds of poison in the Swamp. And you'd be very foolish to go
> into the Swamp without either poison resistance or a way to avoid
> confusion.

That isn't true, either. The clouds can be dealt with with healing
potions, for example, or an amulet of clarity (or whatever it's
called), way more ways around the danger than in the Snake Pit (only
a small percentage has Deflect/Repel Missiles available to them),
and it isn't foolish to enter the Swamp when you carefully poke
around the first few levels to _acquire_ poison resistance.

--
Tina the Shatterer - an Initiate of the Rambling Noxious Goddess

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote in message
news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_24cb98d3@fidonet.org...
> Jeremey Wilson <noaddressgiven@yahoo.com> screeched:
> > "Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote in message
> > news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_24cb8e0d@fidonet.org...
>
> >> The Snake Pit requires poison resistance far more than the
> >> Swamp, and I'd only do it first when I have poison resistance
> >> because I don't like the cumbersome environment of the Swamp.
>
> > Not at all.
>
> Of course that is the case. How could you possibly say what I like
> or don't like?

I'm sorry; "The Snake Pit requires poison resistance far more than the
Swamp"; "Not at all", is what I meant. I can see how you'd be confused,
and then take offense because what appears to me to be a deliberate
misreading could possibly seem insulting, if you're deliberately misreading
specifically for the purpose of finding hidden insults to take offense at.

> > A good evasion or Deflect/Repel Missiles will keep you from
> > getting poisoned much in the Snake Pit. You have to deal with
> > clouds of poison in the Swamp. And you'd be very foolish to go
> > into the Swamp without either poison resistance or a way to avoid
> > confusion.
>
> That isn't true, either. The clouds can be dealt with with healing
> potions, for example, or an amulet of clarity (or whatever it's
> called),

"You'd be very foolish to go into the Swamp without either poison
resistance or a way to avoid confusion." I'm pretty sure I wrote that, but
I might be hallucinating.

Incidentally, you can use potions of healing in the Snake Pit, too -- they
work just as well there as in the Swamp.

way more ways around the danger than in the Snake Pit (only
> a small percentage has Deflect/Repel Missiles available to them),
> and it isn't foolish to enter the Swamp when you carefully poke
> around the first few levels to _acquire_ poison resistance.

And how are you poking into the Swamp to acquire poison resistance, if not
by going down to the bottom to kill a dragon?

--
--Jeremey

 

[Loonie]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>> So apart from that, there's also no reason not to turn off
>>> Evasion to prevent it from getting to such a ridiculously high
>>> level when you don't plan on light armour in the late game. I
>>> ask again, how should it get to 16 in that case?
>> There is no reason. This will not stop that skill completely
>> however.
> Hm? I'm still only trying to make sense from what you wrote:
> -------->
> BTW Trolls have no option for heavy armour until dragon armour is
> found and end up with Evasion skill 16.

Yeah, that's a little tricky, as I changed mu opinion in the middle of our
conversation, when you pointed out that dodging could be turned off (what
was option I've forgotten). So if it's not turned off then it's something
like 16, I suppose that when it's turned off it would be still something
like 6, 7, but it's a risky estimation.


> [swamp draong armour]
>>> The Swamp is a quite reasonable place to go after clearing the
>>> Lair.
>> You need levitation
> No you don't need Levitation, it's just useful.

Well:
1. there is a lot of deep water and water creatures so you could be easily
surrounded in corner
2. when you're in water the creatures have bonus to attack (large AFAIR)
3. when you are in water you have a chance for "splashes around in the
water" instead of attack
4. I suppose that when moving in water your movements are slowed

I think it's enough reasons, of course you can move only on floor, I
suppose it's possible in most cases, but it's not strategically efficient
IMO.


>> and poison resistance
> No you don't _need_ poison resistance, it's just helpful, and there
> are other ways to counter the problem of no poison resistance. Going
> into the Swamp to actually get poison resistance in the first place
> is a reasonable strategy.

Well, you should descend reasonable amount to find swamp dragons, it's
rather risky IMO, as BTW you have swamp drakes that poison, confuse and
occasional hydras.


> Afair I've read of people completing the Snake Pit without poison
> resistance, even.

Much is possible if you're buffed enough (i.e. trolls healing rate
neutralizes HP loss from mild poisoning).


>> I go to Swamp after Snake Pit and Elven Halls.
> !? Elven Halls, especially the bottom, is a lot more dangerous than
> the Swamp, so that seems rather unwise. You might as well say that
> you do the Vaults before the Lair.

You exagerrate, Lair is the nicest place in the game, easier at
beggining than Orkish Caves IMO. Vaults are heavy, esspecially you need
life protection to walk off more experienced than you went in.
Elven Halls is not very dangerous if you don't engage too many monsters
at once, hide from summoners and escape from major demons. However I agreee
with you, i guess it's just me who was too lazy to go back through all the
Orkish levels (low bow to Darshan for interlevel travel patch When it's
getting too hard it happens that I go back.


> The Snake Pit requires poison resistance far more than the Swamp,
> and I'd only do it first when I have poison resistance because I
> don't like the cumbersome environment of the Swamp.

Cumbersome without levitation you meant. ;>


>> There is not much interesting stuff except the rune (however I
>> found Golden Dragon Armour of the King once there .
> It has a rune, some random items, possibly shops, and could provide
> you with a heavy armour that isn't too heavy, relatively early,
> before half the game is over.

Yeah, Dragon Armour is the second worthy thing, but shops are rarer than in
other places (recently found only one in whole Swamp).It's not easy to get
it IMO however.


> To sum up, you don't explain _why_ a troll should end up with
> Evasion 16 when he plans to wear heavy armour instead, and there's a
> possiblity to aquire a not too weighty heavy armour with a useful
> property (poison resistance) to train with fairly early in the game.

Yes, you have some point with Dragon Armour and some point with Troll's
evasion, but I'm don't agree in all aspects.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.iconrate.net