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[Crawl] Making a Beginner's Guide, some questions...

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Anonymous
August 3, 2004 8:11:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

First batch of survey questions, just answer with what you think is
the best way, or even what you think others might suggest. Some
comments on the question in brackets.

- What is the easiest role/race combo...

... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
before dying?
(TrBe?)

... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
don't die?
(DeSu?)

What makes them so good for that?
(Many Hp / Horrible Things?)

- What monsters to look out for?
(I'm decidedly bad at judging monsters' difficulty, only having any
idea about the stuff I meet at the current point in the current
game, and sometimes not even then.)

- What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other OOD
monster) on DL:1?

- How to prevent starvation?

- What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
monster hits the player with it? (What are all the various effects
from wielding/unwielding them?)

- What are the different mummy curse effects? (Only normal mummies,
a player that gets to see the tougher critters doesn't need a
Beginner's Guide.)

- Does a corpse vanish when it's dissected while praying to
Elyvilon?

I need a direct link to the binaries of Darshan's patched version,
and the patches themselves, to insert that somewhere in the
Beginner's Guide.

General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like to
write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a lot do do
all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some stuff).

So, what do you have to say, in up to 100 words, for a newbie
(general stuff that one should know, specifics only if they're
vital, see weapon of distortion question above), about one of these?

Brands, artifacts, spells, a race, a role, an especially good/bad
combination, identify, shops, whatever else you like (see below for
more).

Last but not least; do you want to be mentioned in the credits? (No
answer to this will be taken to mean 'I don't care.'.) I ask this
because I don't want to go into the credits (never do with these
sort of things; whoever suffers from this stuff can blame someone
else <g>).

What I've got so far (to give you some idea of what's needed):

How to get going in Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26.

About this document
(aka "What's this thing here?")
[Something to print out and fold into a plane.]

General
aka "I'm dying all the time!"
[Crawl isn't fair, dying is normal.]

Character
"Ok, how can I imrove my chances to survive the RNG's attacks?"
[Chose your character with some idea of what fits your style. List
of race and role info is planned.]

Sight-seeing
"What kind of character will help me to see a bit more of the
dungeon?"
[nothing yet]
Winning
"What kind of character will be best on the long run (with the
endgame in mind)?"
[nothing yet]

Gods
"What can I expect from my god?"
[Brief summary of the early and important parts, still worked on.]

Praying
[You might get gifts, can sacrifice this way, actions are in the
name of the god.]

Strategy
"I still end up dead even with this nifty character, what now?"

[These initial points are a summary that gets elaborated below.]

Think first. - [...]

If in doubt, run away. - [...]

Look at what faces you. - [?]

Use what you've got. - [...]

Find out what you've got. - [?]

Fleeing/Terrain
"So how do I flee? The Crawl.Txt mentions the 'pillar dance'..."

Pillar Dance
[Explained in detail.]

Corridors
[Their value.]

Traps
[Use them to your advantage.]

Monsters
"What monsters should I better not try to fight in the first
place?"
[mostly nothing yet, something on mummies, and "use 'x' to find out
what that monster is"]

Player Ghosts (Bones files)
"Hey, I know that guy!"
[what to know about ghosts]

Inventory
"None of this helps; I still end up dead. Isn't there a way to get
away _fast_?"
["Look at your inventory...", unidentified stuff]

Identify
[how and when to test stuff...]

Brands
[nothing yet]

Artifacts
[nothing yet]

Spells
[nothing yet]

[Some random notes on what still needs to be mentioned... burdened,
friends, "Don't lean on keys.", autopickup, old messages, stashes,
shops, separate caves (how to get out), random stairs, food,
branches, Temple, Orcish Mines, Lair.]

[Mention of Darshan's patch, don't know whether to put that at the
top or the bottom, I'd prefer it at the top. :)  ]

Anything else?

--
Tina the Architect - an Initiate of the Reflective Nibbling Gearbox
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 8:11:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 04:11:00 GMT+1, Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall)
wrote:

>First batch of survey questions, just answer with what you think is
>the best way, or even what you think others might suggest. Some
>comments on the question in brackets.
>
> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>
> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>before dying?
>(TrBe?)

Yes, trolls have a good survival early on. Spriggans do, too, if you
run away a lot. Centaurs are a good blend of speed and durability, but
the difficulty of feeding one makes them a poor choice for a newbie.
Minotaur and dwarven fighting classes also would be a good
recommendation.

> ... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
>don't die?
>(DeSu?)

No idea. Well, anyone has a good chance as long as they don't die. Not
dying is really the big trick.

> - What monsters to look out for?

Anything in packs early. Bats: get some darts to throw at them.
Snakes: fast, poisonous. Orcs: just plain orcs can be a nuisance, but
the special orcs are some of the meanest things normally encountered
in the early game. Never underestimate an orcish priest! Any monster
you don't recognize may well be out of depth. Your player ghosts will
have powers they didn't have while alive.

> - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other OOD
>monster) on DL:1?

Get to stairs while it hasn't managed to get next to you. Take the
stairs. Come back much later. Use a scroll of blinking if you have one
and need to.

> - How to prevent starvation?

Eat!

>So, what do you have to say, in up to 100 words, for a newbie
>(general stuff that one should know, specifics only if they're
>vital, see weapon of distortion question above), about one of these?

>Brands, artifacts, spells, a race, a role, an especially good/bad
>combination, identify, shops, whatever else you like (see below for
>more).

Beginners should not try to play ghouls. I suggest trying various
combinations until finding one you like, then stay with it for a few
dozen games to try to learn just that play style. Different races and
classes (well, sets of skills focused on) do play differently.

>Anything else?

Basics of armor and weapon selection. Something about magic and
especially what are good early spells and what types of magic work
well together or with what other skills.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 9:06:12 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote in news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=
40fidonet_2712e88b@fidonet.org:

> First batch of survey questions, just answer with what you think is
> the best way, or even what you think others might suggest. Some
> comments on the question in brackets.
>
> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>
> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
> before dying?
> (TrBe?)

Yes, making sure to eat anything possible, manage Trog well, berserk at
the right times, only fight barehanded, and know when to run.

I actually think that DeCj is a better beginner combo -- teaches good
skills (keeping your distance, killing things from afar whenever
possible). For fighter types, a Hill Orc Fighter with an axe (can't
remember the abbreviation) might be a good choice (fast levels, good
combat skills, not the same food issues as with a TrBe).

> ... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
> don't die?
> (DeSu?)

Umm. I don't know the answer to this one. :-( My SEIE/monk did fine until
he died of stupidity (mine)

> - What monsters to look out for?
> (I'm decidedly bad at judging monsters' difficulty, only having any
> idea about the stuff I meet at the current point in the current
> game, and sometimes not even then.)

Early game? Snakes, giant ants, orc priests and wizards, ogres, Sigmund.

> - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other OOD
> monster) on DL:1?

Run away and decend.

> - How to prevent starvation?

Carry chunks.

> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
> monster hits the player with it? (What are all the various effects
> from wielding/unwielding them?)

Advanced topic, I think.

> - What are the different mummy curse effects? (Only normal mummies,
> a player that gets to see the tougher critters doesn't need a
> Beginner's Guide.)

The rule for the Beginner's Guide should be "run away". Same for other
slow but tough monsters (e.g., "w" and "W" -- hey, political commentary
in Crawl).

[snip]
> General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like to
> write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a lot do do
> all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some stuff).

Combat strategy: selecting when and where to fight is essential to
survive in a role that emphasizes combat. Never take enemies out in the
open, even when they are weak. Always retreat to corridors so you can
take creatures on one by one, and don't be afraid to run upstairs or
downstairs. Remember that monsters will follow you, so decide to run away
earlier rather than later.

> Last but not least; do you want to be mentioned in the credits? (No
> answer to this will be taken to mean 'I don't care.'.) I ask this
> because I don't want to go into the credits (never do with these
> sort of things; whoever suffers from this stuff can blame someone
> else <g>).

Personally, I think your name should go as the lead author, and you
should mention whoever contributes substantive ideas.

> Winning
> "What kind of character will be best on the long run (with the
> endgame in mind)?"
> [nothing yet]

Not really a beginning topic.
[snip]

> Player Ghosts (Bones files)
> "Hey, I know that guy!"
> [what to know about ghosts]

Hearse
Arien
Related resources
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 9:06:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 05:06:12 GMT, Arien Malec
<arien_malec@yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote:

>Early game? Snakes, giant ants, orc priests and wizards, ogres, Sigmund.

Ooh, Sigmund. I forgot him. Giant ants don't give me that much trouble
and they're yummy, so I like them. Snakes wouldn't be so bad if it
weren't for the poison. Ogres aren't fast and can't hit at a distance
and don't come in packs, so they're pretty easy to stay away from and
killing them isn't too hard if you have a poison ranged attacked (or
sticky flame!).

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 11:00:21 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina_Hall wrote:

I'm still mostly a newbie, though I've played >200 games, I've yet to
have a character reach level 20, or explore branches beyond the Mines,
Halls, Lair & Snake Pit. (The Slime Pit killed one of my best
characters to date, in mere seconds... :-(

Here's the resources I use to help off-set my newbieness:

These are all rather Spoily...though not enough for me, it seems. I
had to download the source and look up some stuff, to satisfy my
curiosity. :-)

Loonie's Crawl page: http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/defense.php
AADC page: http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/
A good monster spoiler, plus other goodies:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/lava/crawl/index.html
Erwan's huge spoiler archive:
http://www.eleves.ens.fr/home/grasland/crawl/index.html


> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
Crawl.txt suggests a Fighter. This is as good a suggestion as any.

> - What monsters to look out for?
- Anything you haven't seen before.
- Anything at all, if not at full hitpoints.
- Early game: anything that poisons, plus gnolls & orcs
- Level 10'ish: Elves, anything that you don't have a resistance to.

> - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other OOD
> monster) on DL:1?
Hit "Q" then "Y", and try again!

> - How to prevent starvation?
Eat chunks whenever possible.
You'll learn fast enough which are bad to eat. On the early levels
don't eat kobolds.

> General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like to
> write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a lot do do
> all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some stuff).

The game is designed so that you WILL die if you ever get
'comfortable' with a character. 5 minutes after you think that a level
has no challeges for your character, you WILL have Yet Another Stupid
Death. My first 5+ promising characters died because of
overconfidence. Some examples: taking on too many 'easy' monsters with
no escape plan, accidently wielding the wrong weapon when fighting a
dangerous monster, not checking how many HP you have before going to
the next level and not checking your equiped armor after trying on new
goodies.

Other tips:
Try playing one of each of these:
- Fighter Human or Dwarven
- Wizard: Human or Elven
- Assassin: Halfling or Spriggan
- Monk: Minotaur or Human

They have different playing styles that teach you different aspects
of the game. With a fighter you get to see how effective armor is. The
wizard shows you the pro/cons of being a spellcaster. The assassin
teaches the use of poison, stealth and how to run away. The monk
demonstrates the value of dodging and evasion instead of armor.
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 11:30:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:

> - What is the easiest role/race combo...

> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>before dying?
>(TrBe?)

I would suggest hunters. They usually survive at least until running out
of ammo :)  Ammo can be collected from traps to some extent.

> ... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
>don't die?
>(DeSu?)

Fire elementalists rock, in my opinion.

> What makes them so good for that?
>(Many Hp / Horrible Things?)

Ability to kill things from afar / Fire storm.

> - What monsters to look out for?

All of them, at the beginning :) 

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 11:33:08 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 05:06:12 GMT, Arien Malec
<arien_malec@yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote:

>Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote in news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=
>40fidonet_2712e88b@fidonet.org:

>> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
>> monster hits the player with it? (What are all the various effects
>> from wielding/unwielding them?)
>
>Advanced topic, I think.

I agree. Most games I never live to see a weapon of distortion and
when I do, it is pretty unusual to have been hit with it first (and
then survived to take it away, especially).

>> - What are the different mummy curse effects? (Only normal mummies,
>> a player that gets to see the tougher critters doesn't need a
>> Beginner's Guide.)
>
>The rule for the Beginner's Guide should be "run away". Same for other
>slow but tough monsters (e.g., "w" and "W" -- hey, political commentary
>in Crawl).

The difference being that actually killing a mummy isn't so good.
Other monsters one might usually run away from can be taken down
sometimes if one has a lucky find. Newbies need to know killing a
mummy can be bad, they don't need a list of effects.

>Combat strategy: selecting when and where to fight is essential to
>survive in a role that emphasizes combat. Never take enemies out in the
>open, even when they are weak. Always retreat to corridors so you can
>take creatures on one by one, and don't be afraid to run upstairs or
>downstairs. Remember that monsters will follow you, so decide to run away
>earlier rather than later.

Note that player ghosts *won't* follow you up/down stairs. That little
tip could save quite a few lives.

>> Winning
>> "What kind of character will be best on the long run (with the
>> endgame in mind)?"
>> [nothing yet]
>
>Not really a beginning topic.
>[snip]

But a beginner question. And I actually think my answer is right on:
Any character that survives. I guess one should mention that
specialization is the way to go in order to get a character powerful
enough to handle the late game.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 3:53:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Arien Malec wrote:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote in news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=
> 40fidonet_2712e88b@fidonet.org:
>

>> - What monsters to look out for?
>>(I'm decidedly bad at judging monsters' difficulty, only having any
>>idea about the stuff I meet at the current point in the current
>>game, and sometimes not even then.)
>
>
> Early game? Snakes, giant ants, orc priests and wizards, ogres, Sigmund.

Orc warriors, jellies (look harmless, hit hard). Ants, Ogres and Orc
wizards are quite easy IMHO, especially if you bring your blowgun with you.

>> - How to prevent starvation?
>
>
> Carry chunks.

Hunt for food until weak; possibly go down one level to find fresh food.
If starving, retreat and eat rations. If you're a troll|ogre|cobold, eat
every fresh monster until full. My last starved characters were Centaurs
and TrBe, so starvation was never much of an issiue.

>> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
>>monster hits the player with it?

'space bends|warps horribly around you' for the extra damage.
Banishment, blink and teleport go without further notice. Also watch out
for the 'explosion of sparks' electric weapons (+10+d15 if wielded by a
monster).


>> - What are the different mummy curse effects? (Only normal mummies,
>>a player that gets to see the tougher critters doesn't need a
>>Beginner's Guide.)

it's curse_an_item(); curses weapons/rings/amulets/armour or turns a
stack of your potions into potions of decay.


Lars
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 5:10:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On 3 Aug 04 07:30:32 GMT, jkuusist@cc.hut.fi (Jukka Kuusisto) wrote:

>Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:
>
>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>
>> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>>before dying?
>>(TrBe?)
>
>I would suggest hunters. They usually survive at least until running out
>of ammo :)  Ammo can be collected from traps to some extent.

Ammo is heavy and missiles can get hard to come by. Most races good at
shooting aren't very sturdy. I would suggest newbies wanting to play
hunters try a centaur, so they can run away a lot, if only to create a
distance between themselves and their targets. The problem then is
food, but at least this isn't a spell-casting centaur.

>Fire elementalists rock, in my opinion.

Fire elementists are a good beginner spell-caster. Very
straight-forward way to get into Crawl magic.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 6:07:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jukka Kuusisto <jkuusist@cc.hut.fi> screamed:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:

>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...

>> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>> before dying?
>> (TrBe?)

> I would suggest hunters. They usually survive at least until
> running out of ammo :)  Ammo can be collected from traps to some
> extent.

What race? My Gnome Hunters were dead faster than you could say
'Gnome Hunter'. Others didn'f fare much better

>> ... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
>> don't die?
>> (DeSu?)

> Fire elementalists rock, in my opinion.

What race? My Dwarven Fire Elementalist (the one that didn't get
killed by a bug in an older version) didn't get far, either.

That's what I meant by unlucky combinations (when someone plays
random characters). Some races fit certain roles better than
others...

>> - What monsters to look out for?

> All of them, at the beginning :) 

Well... There are some that need more looking out for than others.
<g>

Thanks. :) 

--
Tina the Portalist - an Initiate of the Ruinous Nonaligned Grievance
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 6:09:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> screamed:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:

>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>>
>> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>> before dying?
>> (TrBe?)

> Yes, trolls have a good survival early on. Spriggans do, too, if
> you run away a lot.

As a Stalker, for example?

> Centaurs are a good blend of speed and durability, but the
> difficulty of feeding one makes them a poor choice for a newbie.

What role is best for a Centaur? (Mine all had food problems, too.)

> Minotaur and dwarven fighting classes also would be a good
> recommendation.

Fighting classes is Fighter, Gladiator, what else?

Ah, another question. What roles and races are far more difficult
than others? (I'd list quite a lot here, starting with Reaver and
Kenku.)

>> ... with respect to have a good chance at the endgame if you
>> don't die?
>> (DeSu?)

> No idea. Well, anyone has a good chance as long as they don't
> die. Not dying is really the big trick.

In my experience, the bigger spellcasters have a much easier life
later on.

For me, that's especially Summoning + Earth Magic, the Summoner just
has better survival methods early on than the Earth Elementalist.
Hiding in a Tomb of Doroklohe while Horrible Things pound on the
monsters must be just about the safest way to get through the
endgame. :)  The only problem is that this way you don't learn how
tough the monsters are.

>> - What monsters to look out for?

> Anything in packs early. Bats: get some darts to throw at them.
> Snakes: fast, poisonous. Orcs: just plain orcs can be a nuisance,
> but the special orcs are some of the meanest things normally
> encountered in the early game. Never underestimate an orcish
> priest! Any monster you don't recognize may well be out of depth.

This sounds as if it wants to be transplanted into the Guide as is.
:)  (The snipped bits below, too.)

> Your player ghosts will have powers they didn't have while alive.

Yes, that's mentioned in the 'Ghosts' section but ghosts might be
better pointed out here, too.

[...]

>> - How to prevent starvation?

> Eat!

<g>
Well, apart from the obvious. :) 

[...]

>> Anything else?

> Basics of armor and weapon selection. Something about magic and
> especially what are good early spells and what types of magic
> work well together or with what other skills.

Ah, right.

Thanks! :) 

--
Tina the Poisoner - a Believer of the Regrettable Nosy Grinder
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 6:09:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:09:00 GMT+1, Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall)
wrote:

>R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> screamed:
>> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
>
>>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>>>
>>> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>>> before dying?
>>> (TrBe?)
>
>> Yes, trolls have a good survival early on. Spriggans do, too, if
>> you run away a lot.
>
>As a Stalker, for example?

Anything. As long as you run away a lot. The classes vary in long-term
viability, I guess, but for living long enough to get a look around as
a beginning player, it's the running speed that matters. (Also, IIRC,
they have small appetites and avoid some of the food issue which can
be difficult when learning the basics.) Stalker is actually a good
beginner class because you can learn about spells, stabbing, stealth,
running the heck away, and poisoning then running. Not the best of
classes, but a viable mix of important things to learn.

>> Centaurs are a good blend of speed and durability, but the
>> difficulty of feeding one makes them a poor choice for a newbie.
>
>What role is best for a Centaur? (Mine all had food problems, too.)

As I say, I wouldn't recommend a centaur to a newbie, unless maybe
they wanted to play a hunter. Centaurs can shoot, don't die too
easily, and can run faster than most monsters, making the whole
missile weapon thing a little more practical than for most races.

>> Minotaur and dwarven fighting classes also would be a good
>> recommendation.
>
>Fighting classes is Fighter, Gladiator, what else?

Monks. Minotaur monk is a pretty tough customer.

>Ah, another question. What roles and races are far more difficult
>than others? (I'd list quite a lot here, starting with Reaver and
>Kenku.)

Kenku look good on paper, but I haven't had a lot of luck with them,
either. Reaver is just a bad idea. If you do magic and fighting, you
want magic that does support stuff to complement your fighting skill,
not compete with it for killing monsters. You're just double spending
on killing monsters with a Reaver. At least a Stalker's direct attack
poison saves you a blowgun and they get other spells quickly, like
Sure Blade, which *adds to* Short Blade effectiveness rather than
competing with it.

>>> - What monsters to look out for?
>
>> Anything in packs early. Bats: get some darts to throw at them.
>> Snakes: fast, poisonous. Orcs: just plain orcs can be a nuisance,
>> but the special orcs are some of the meanest things normally
>> encountered in the early game. Never underestimate an orcish
>> priest! Any monster you don't recognize may well be out of depth.
>
>This sounds as if it wants to be transplanted into the Guide as is.
>:)  (The snipped bits below, too.)

I forgot about Sigmund. In fact, probably about the first ten uniques
should get a brief mention. (Beyond that, you're no longer a beginner
if you're meeting them at a depth you have a chance of survival.)

>>> - How to prevent starvation?
>
>> Eat!
>
><g>
>Well, apart from the obvious. :) 

Don't eat rotten food. Unless you can [list circumstances that allow
eating rotten food]. Eat nice meats like rats, bats, etc. in
preference to ickier meats like orc or gnoll. Unless you resist
poison, don't eat poisoned meat. Snakes are venomous, but not
poisonous: it is bad if they bite you, but are quite good eating.
That's "Snakes", not anything with snake in its name -- a word about
higher snake types would be in order. I don't know how many of those
are edible.

Cache food. I like to use the ET as a storage area, myself. Keep
enough on hand to avoid starvation, without being weighed down. If you
*have* to eat with danger nearby, eat something quick, not a ration.

Maybe mention the "eat bread last in case I get vegetarianism"
strategy.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 6:20:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Arien Malec <arien_malec@yahoo.com.REMOVE> screamed:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote

>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>>
>> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>> before dying?
>> (TrBe?)

[...]
> I actually think that DeCj is a better beginner combo -- teaches
> good skills (keeping your distance, killing things from afar
> whenever possible).

What strategy has them survive, though? Mine all got killed... (The
problem is also that you don't have a fixed spellbook, so you don't
always have the same strategy; imps for example are resistant to
either ice or fire, can never remember).

I'll add that; maybe someone else's playing style fits them better
than mine. :) 

[...]

>> - How to prevent starvation?

> Carry chunks.

And eat them first...? I just remember some questions here about
starvation from new players, but wasn't sure what they were told...

>> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
>> monster hits the player with it? (What are all the various
>> effects from wielding/unwielding them?)

> Advanced topic, I think.

It's vital, I think, because it can happen early and kill the
character, so they need to know the risk. Minimizing it by not test
wielding all and every weapon, but just those that are useful to you
or look particularly interesting, should be mentioned. Then, which
weapon not to test-wield when you found out what it is by someone
else hitting you with it. (I'll also mention that some people think
weapons of distortion are the best thing since sliced bread. :)  )

>> - What are the different mummy curse effects? (Only normal
>> mummies, a player that gets to see the tougher critters doesn't
>> need a Beginner's Guide.)

> The rule for the Beginner's Guide should be "run away". Same for
> other slow but tough monsters (e.g., "w" and "W"

Telling them why not to kill a mummy themselves might help believing
it. :) 

> -- hey, political commentary in Crawl).

I had to think about that to guess what it might mean. <g>

> [snip]
>> General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like
>> to write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a
>> lot do do all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some
>> stuff).

> Combat strategy: selecting when and where to fight is essential
> to survive in a role that emphasizes combat. Never take enemies
> out in the open, even when they are weak.

A single monster? Or a horde?

> Always retreat to corridors so you can take creatures on one by
> one, and don't be afraid to run upstairs or downstairs. [...]

I forgot up/downstairs. That's sometimes handy to get rid of surplus
monsters (when the other end of the stairs has only one square
adjacent to you).

>> Last but not least; do you want to be mentioned in the credits?
>> (No answer to this will be taken to mean 'I don't care.'.) I ask
>> this because I don't want to go into the credits (never do with
>> these sort of things; whoever suffers from this stuff can blame
>> someone else <g>).

> Personally, I think your name should go as the lead author,

I don't want that.

(And that's something only I have any say in. :p  )

> and you should mention whoever contributes substantive ideas.

If they want to be mentioned, then they have the opportunity to
answer 'Yes' here. No answer will result in this being done
according to my whim alone. (Not the best way.)

>> Winning
>> "What kind of character will be best on the long run (with
>> the endgame in mind)?"
>> [nothing yet]

> Not really a beginning topic.

Doesn't matter. Some players like to have a plan, and don't just
survive half the game and then get killed because the character has
nothing to offer for later. (Like Stalkers get difficult later
on...)

Usually the stuff I put into spoilers (and here in the Guide, too,
to some extend) are the kind of answers I would have liked to get
when asking certain questions when I was new to the game. This is
one of them. :) 

People don't all have the same goal, and for example being told
"doesn't matter at the moment" isn't helpful.

>> Player Ghosts (Bones files)
>> "Hey, I know that guy!"
>> [what to know about ghosts]

> Hearse

True. Do you have a direct link for that?

Thanks! :) 

--
Tina the Spear-Bearer - a High Priest of the Rearing Number Guardian
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 6:20:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 14:20:00 GMT+1, Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall)
wrote:

>It's vital, I think, because it can happen early and kill the
>character, so they need to know the risk. Minimizing it by not test
>wielding all and every weapon, but just those that are useful to you
>or look particularly interesting, should be mentioned. Then, which
>weapon not to test-wield when you found out what it is by someone
>else hitting you with it. (I'll also mention that some people think
>weapons of distortion are the best thing since sliced bread. :)  )

Actually, the important thing for a beginner to be told about weapons
of distortion is to *not unwield* one once you have wielded it. (Not
until able to survive the possible side effects, that is.)

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 7:56:20 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote in message
news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_2712e88b@fidonet.org...
> First batch of survey questions, just answer with what you think is
> the best way, or even what you think others might suggest. Some
> comments on the question in brackets.

I'll second most of what was said elsewhere in the thread.

> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>
> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
> before dying?
> (TrBe?)

I'd say SpSt, but this is probably a matter of play style. Demonspawn
fighters can be very good early if your first mutation is a good one.

> - What monsters to look out for?
> (I'm decidedly bad at judging monsters' difficulty, only having any
> idea about the stuff I meet at the current point in the current
> game, and sometimes not even then.)

Ogres, killer bees, and orc priests were my biggest problem as a newbie.
Now it's probably gnolls, which often appear on DL1.

Oh, and a kobold with a dagger of draining.

> - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other OOD
> monster) on DL:1?

Poison needles are lying all over the place. Even without a blowgun, you
don't have to throw many to get a big OOD monster (ogres usually, but the
occasional troll, too) pretty sick. Stings serve the same purpose, if
you're a stalker or venom mage. Otherwise, go downstairs.

> - How to prevent starvation?

Don't cast high-level spells when you don't need to and you can't do it for
free.

Rage also makes you pretty hungry, and I don't think you get a message.


> Monsters
> "What monsters should I better not try to fight in the first
> place?"
> [mostly nothing yet, something on mummies, and "use 'x' to find out
> what that monster is"]

Something about Jellies, too.

> Identify
> [how and when to test stuff...]

Maybe a note that stat loss (from a troll trying on an un-IDed ring of
intelligence, say, or drinking an un-IDed potion of degeneration) can kill
you.

>
> [Some random notes on what still needs to be mentioned... burdened,
> friends, "Don't lean on keys.", autopickup, old messages, stashes,
> shops, separate caves (how to get out), random stairs, food,
> branches, Temple, Orcish Mines, Lair.]
>
> [Mention of Darshan's patch, don't know whether to put that at the
> top or the bottom, I'd prefer it at the top. :)  ]
>
> Anything else?

"Gross! I found a slimy shield! What should I do?"

[Items with unusual descriptions -- "heavily runed", "slimy", "brightly
glowing", and many more -- are artifacts. Artifacts are special items that
often have unusual powers, and sometimes terrible curses. The powerful
magic of artifacts is such that merely wielding an artifact weapon or
wearing artifact armor is enough to identify the item. You can examine an
artifact's powers by using the [v]iew command.]

Also, stepping in deep water kills you unless you're levitating/flying or a
merfolk. I think the same goes for lava.

--
Jeremey
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 7:56:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 15:56:20 GMT, "Jeremey Wilson"
<noaddressgiven@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Maybe a note that stat loss (from a troll trying on an un-IDed ring of
>intelligence, say, or drinking an un-IDed potion of degeneration) can kill
>you.

And that if you have stat loss from being sick, don't worry too much:
it'll heal on its own. That can keep newbies from wasting potions
fixing a one-point drain on a stat they don't need the point on in the
first place.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 9:41:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:

>Jukka Kuusisto <jkuusist@cc.hut.fi> screamed:
>> I would suggest hunters. They usually survive at least until
>> running out of ammo :)  Ammo can be collected from traps to some
>> extent.

>What race? My Gnome Hunters were dead faster than you could say
>'Gnome Hunter'. Others didn'f fare much better

I've won with a mountain dwarf hunter. They get a crossbow,
which does good damage. Bolts are harder to find than arrows
in the early game, though.

>> Fire elementalists rock, in my opinion.

>What race? My Dwarven Fire Elementalist (the one that didn't get
>killed by a bug in an older version) didn't get far, either.

My first victory was with a hill orc fire elementalist. Hill
orcs aren't great spellcasters, but they are buff and gain
experience levels fast.

>That's what I meant by unlucky combinations (when someone plays
>random characters). Some races fit certain roles better than
>others...

I enjoy trying every possible combination, but maybe I'm just
weird. So far I've played with all combinations but human thief,
hunter, transmuter and warper and demonspawn fighter.

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 9:41:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On 3 Aug 04 17:41:49 GMT, jkuusist@cc.hut.fi (Jukka Kuusisto) wrote:

>I enjoy trying every possible combination, but maybe I'm just
>weird. So far I've played with all combinations but human thief,
>hunter, transmuter and warper and demonspawn fighter.

I'm playing through ten games with each combination and recording
results. Then I'll take the ones that do well and try with just those
to get a winner, if I don't get one during the trail process. I'll
share results when I'm done, although with a one-player sample size,
it won't be very meaningful. If others tried the same experiment, some
empirical data on race-class difficulty with some meaning could be
had.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 9:41:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:10:34 -0700, R. Dan Henry
<danhenry@inreach.com> wrote:

>I'm playing through ten games with each combination and recording
>results.

Note: This is taking awhile. It would take even longer for a better
player, who would have more characters survive for longer.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 10:25:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> screamed:
> Arien Malec <arien_malec@yahoo.com.REMOVE> wrote:
>> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote

>>> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
>>> monster hits the player with it? (What are all the various
>>> effects from wielding/unwielding them?)
>>
>> Advanced topic, I think.

> I agree. Most games I never live to see a weapon of distortion
> and when I do, it is pretty unusual to have been hit with it
> first (and then survived to take it away, especially).

I got bad effects from quite a few weapons of distortion early on.
And when I get hit with it, I'd like to know what on earth happened.
This could be life-saving and does no harm to be added... (How many
hitpoints does the weapon steal when you wield it? I've got some
feeling of 'about 50', but am not sure. Adding that will give it
some proportion, because 'a lot' doesn't say much when you don't yet
know what 'a lot' is.)

> [...] Newbies need to know killing a mummy can be bad, they don't
> need a list of effects.

This kind of general information is what actually annoys me when
I've asked a straight question. "Bad? Well, you might think
different things bad than I." In the end the information is not
really all that helpful. Knowing what it does, on the other hand,
someone might chose to drop their healing potions and kill the
bugger anyway.

> Note that player ghosts *won't* follow you up/down stairs. That
> little tip could save quite a few lives.

I've got that in already. :) 

>>> Winning
>>> "What kind of character will be best on the long run (with
>>> the endgame in mind)?"
>>> [nothing yet]
>>
>> Not really a beginning topic.

> But a beginner question. And I actually think my answer is right
> on: Any character that survives.

:)  That doesn't really help, and actually isn't quite true. Some
guys are easier early on but have a hard life in the endgame. Like
characters with zombies (Necromancers or Yredelemnul worshippers) go
relatively smoothly for quite some time, but in the end all your
zombies drop dead faster than you can yell at them to pound on the
orb guadians, and you're on your own.

> I guess one should mention that specialization is the way to go in
> order to get a character powerful enough to handle the late game.

Yep. I don't think I'd have remembered that.

--
Tina the Infuser - an Initiate of the Recently Notorious Greek
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 10:25:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Tue, 3 Aug 2004 18:25:00 GMT+1, Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall)
wrote:

>
>:)  That doesn't really help, and actually isn't quite true. Some
>guys are easier early on but have a hard life in the endgame. Like
>characters with zombies (Necromancers or Yredelemnul worshippers) go
>relatively smoothly for quite some time, but in the end all your
>zombies drop dead faster than you can yell at them to pound on the
>orb guadians, and you're on your own.

Really? I've never found undead hordes very useful in the early game,
either. They seem less effective than the more easily renewed mammal
pals of a summoner.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 3, 2004 10:42:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Dalton Wudrich <dalton_wudrich@hotmail.com> croaked:
> Tina_Hall wrote:

> I'm still mostly a newbie, though I've played >200 games,

Hey, you could be half-way to winning with that. (My 400th character
actually escaped with the Orb. :)  )

> I've yet to have a character reach level 20, or explore branches
> beyond the Mines, Halls, Lair & Snake Pit. (The Slime Pit killed
> one of my best characters to date, in mere seconds... :-(

Yes, good point. The Slime Pits are not to be visited unawares. That
needs to be mentioned among the branches, because the Lair itself
isn't too far into the game.

> Here's the resources I use to help off-set my newbieness:
[web pages]

Can't look at them to see what they have to say (no internet
access).

>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
> Crawl.txt suggests a Fighter. This is as good a suggestion as
> any.

That's the early game, and doesn't seem to fit Crawl as a general
rule as much as it is valid for other roguelikes.

>> - What monsters to look out for?
> - Anything you haven't seen before.
> - Anything at all, if not at full hitpoints.
> - Early game: anything that poisons, plus gnolls & orcs

Some people might not know what poisons you...

> - Level 10'ish: Elves, anything that you don't have a resistance
> to.

Which might not be clear just from looking at the monster. :) 

>> - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other
>> OOD monster) on DL:1?
> Hit "Q" then "Y", and try again!

Eh? If you're going to die, you might as well try to get away
instead, the 'how' is the point of the question.

>> General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like
>> to write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a
>> lot do do all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some
>> stuff).

> The game is designed so that you WILL die if you ever get
> 'comfortable' with a character.

Hmmm... Not really. Rather, those that still are somewhat
uncomfortable (as in lacking important things) tend to die... The
difference is knowing that you lack something, I think.

> 5 minutes after you think that a level has no challeges for your
> character, you WILL have Yet Another Stupid Death.

Or not. ;P

> My first 5+ promising characters died because of overconfidence.

Overconfidence is bad, but it's a different thing I think. You think
your character is better than he is instead of actually knowing what
your character can do (and thus be comfortable with him).

> Some examples: taking on too many 'easy' monsters with no escape
> plan, accidently wielding the wrong weapon when fighting a
> dangerous monster, not checking how many HP you have before going
> to the next level and not checking your equiped armor after trying
> on new goodies.

That isn't even overconfidence, but just not paying attention in my
case. <g> (I do that often enough... One game I sat there munching
on some chunks without looking at the screen, and some monster crept
up and started whacking me.)

> Other tips:
> Try playing one of each of these:
> - Fighter Human or Dwarven
> - Wizard: Human or Elven
> - Assassin: Halfling or Spriggan
> - Monk: Minotaur or Human
[...]

That's what the question on the role/race combo was aimed at. :) 

Thanks. :) 

--
Tina the Backstabber - an Elder of the Residual Nasty Gargoyle
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 12:23:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote in
news:5tjvg0d2g2urq8cng8k0im9beak66ps5iv@4ax.com:

> Fire elementists are a good beginner spell-caster. Very
> straight-forward way to get into Crawl magic.

The only disadvantage is that you have to get close to the beasties until
you gain a level (or two, depending on what race you play). That's why I
think Cj is a better beginning type.

Arien
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 2:24:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jukka Kuusisto <jkuusist@cc.hut.fi> roared:
> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:
>> Jukka Kuusisto <jkuusist@cc.hut.fi> screamed:

>>> I would suggest hunters. They usually survive at least until
>>> running out of ammo :)  Ammo can be collected from traps to some
>>> extent.

>> What race? My Gnome Hunters were dead faster than you could say
>> 'Gnome Hunter'. Others didn'f fare much better

> I've won with a mountain dwarf hunter. They get a crossbow,
> which does good damage. Bolts are harder to find than arrows
> in the early game, though.

Oddly, while Hill Dwarf (they're not that different from Mountain
Dwarves, though I've got two of them, too) Hunter seemed a nifty
combination, mine all died. Checking of what, they seemed to have
had particular bad luck, though... .

>>> Fire elementalists rock, in my opinion.

>> What race? My Dwarven Fire Elementalist (the one that didn't get
>> killed by a bug in an older version) didn't get far, either.

> My first victory was with a hill orc fire elementalist. Hill
> orcs aren't great spellcasters, but they are buff and gain
> experience levels fast.

Maybe the Hill Orc survived even as a spellcaster because you
hack&slash monsters even with spellcasters? (Proper spellcasters
like Deep Elves don't survive that easily, if at all...)

Aren't you the guy that plays every combination once and then the
next one or something like that? (Sorry, am bad with names.)

In that case it could be more coincidence that it happened to be a
Fire Elementalist...

I'll add it, though. It's an option for someone who wants to be a
mage but acts as a fighter. :) 

>> That's what I meant by unlucky combinations (when someone plays
>> random characters). Some races fit certain roles better than
>> others...

> I enjoy trying every possible combination, but maybe I'm just
> weird. So far I've played with all combinations but human thief,
> hunter, transmuter and warper and demonspawn fighter.

Why not them?

--
Tina the Veteran - a Follower of the Representative Noble Grin
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 2:27:09 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> writes:

>I'm playing through ten games with each combination and recording
>results. Then I'll take the ones that do well and try with just those
>to get a winner, if I don't get one during the trail process.

I've won 5 times so far in the first round of combinations.
I've only played one game with each combination. When I've
finished this first round, I'll do the opposite of what you
described: I'll start with the combinations that were the
worst :) 

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 2:32:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:

>Maybe the Hill Orc survived even as a spellcaster because you
>hack&slash monsters even with spellcasters? (Proper spellcasters
>like Deep Elves don't survive that easily, if at all...)

I would say it was fighter-mage type of playing. I did cast
a lot of spells, too. But practising melee fighting is good
for spellcasters too, to get some more hit points. And to
deal with the fire resistant critters until you get some
other attack spells.

>Aren't you the guy that plays every combination once and then the
>next one or something like that? (Sorry, am bad with names.)

Yes.

>In that case it could be more coincidence that it happened to be a
>Fire Elementalist...

May be. But I would say that my fire elementalists in general
survive better than most other classes.

>I'll add it, though. It's an option for someone who wants to be a
>mage but acts as a fighter. :) 

I sincerely recommend some melee fighting for all spellcasters...

>> I enjoy trying every possible combination, but maybe I'm just
>> weird. So far I've played with all combinations but human thief,
>> hunter, transmuter and warper and demonspawn fighter.

>Why not them?

Because my current game with a demonspawn hunter has not ended
yet :)  I will play with those combinations after this game (which
will surely end soon now that I mentioned it here).

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 2:47:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Lars Kecke <kecke@physik.uni-freiburg.de> screeched:
> Arien Malec wrote:
>> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote in

>>> - What monsters to look out for?
>>> (I'm decidedly bad at judging monsters' difficulty, only having
>>> any idea about the stuff I meet at the current point in the
>>> current game, and sometimes not even then.)
>>
>> Early game? Snakes, giant ants, orc priests and wizards, ogres,
>> Sigmund.

> Orc warriors, jellies (look harmless, hit hard).

True, and jellies also steal plusses, no?

> Ants, Ogres and Orc wizards are quite easy IMHO, especially if you
> bring your blowgun with you.

Not everyone has one, and it also depends on when you meet them.

I find ants quite scary early on. They poison, don't they? They're
as bad as snakes, which are very bad news on D:1 to a lot of my
characters. (The others are bad anyway.)

>>> - How to prevent starvation?
>>
>> Carry chunks.

> Hunt for food until weak; possibly go down one level to find
> fresh food. If starving, retreat and eat rations. If you're a
> troll|ogre|cobold, eat every fresh monster until full. My last
> starved characters were Centaurs and TrBe, so starvation was
> never much of an issiue.

I've only had three starved characters; 1 CeHu on D:2, 1 SpWr on D:1
(but he had been teleported into a corner that he didn't find the
way out of, though there should have been a secret door I think, it
just was quite some convoluted corridor, and I didn't find any
secret door), and a OMEE on D:5.

The question only appeared because I remember some people
complaining about food problems, so I thought it should be added. :) 

>>> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
>>> monster hits the player with it?

> 'space bends|warps horribly around you' for the extra damage.
> Banishment, blink and teleport go without further notice.

Thanks. :)  How much damage is that? Is that the same effects when
wielding it?

> Also watch out for the 'explosion of sparks' electric weapons
> (+10+d15 if wielded by a monster).

Ah, yes. They're bad.

>>> - What are the different mummy curse effects? (Only normal
>>> mummies, a player that gets to see the tougher critters doesn't
>>> need a Beginner's Guide.)

> it's curse_an_item(); curses weapons/rings/amulets/armour or
> turns a stack of your potions into potions of decay.

Thanks. :)  Is that any potion, or just beneficial ones, or just
healing/heal wounds?

--
Tina the Caller - a Believer of the Rheumatic Nonplussed Greek
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 2:53:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jeremey Wilson <noaddressgiven@yahoo.com> moaned:
> "Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote

>> - What is the easiest role/race combo...
>>
>> ... with respect to actually seeing something of the dungeon
>> before dying?
>> (TrBe?)

> I'd say SpSt, but this is probably a matter of play style.

Not necessarily. Poison is useful early on. It's just a problem
later when some monsters are resistant to it, though a lot still
aren't.

> Demonspawn fighters can be very good early if your first mutation
> is a good one.

Aren't they all supposed to be good? ;) 

>> - What monsters to look out for?
>> (I'm decidedly bad at judging monsters' difficulty, only having
>> any idea about the stuff I meet at the current point in the
>> current game, and sometimes not even then.)

> Ogres, killer bees, and orc priests were my biggest problem as a
> newbie. Now it's probably gnolls, which often appear on DL1.

Yep, that sounds very familiar.

> Oh, and a kobold with a dagger of draining.

I think that could be adjusted to 'a kobold with a dagger of foo',
they all tend to be bad. :)  Or are daggers of draining more common
(or weapons of draining in general)?

>> - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other
>> OOD monster) on DL:1?

> Poison needles are lying all over the place. Even without a
> blowgun, you don't have to throw many to get a big OOD monster

True. I used to throw them, too, but forgot about it after I decided
that I don't want to waste Exp on that when I don't need it later.
:) 

> (ogres usually, but the occasional troll, too) pretty sick. [...]

Trolls heal up again, though.

>> - How to prevent starvation?

> Don't cast high-level spells when you don't need to and you can't
> do it for free.

What was the formula and the hunger cost again? (Without knowing
what 'free' and what 'high-level' is, this info won't do a newbie
any good.)

> Rage also makes you pretty hungry, and I don't think you get a
> message.

I should be able to remember this, that TrBe is not too long ago
(though he berserked only once after taking off the amulet of resist
slowing), I think there was a message.

>> Identify
>> [how and when to test stuff...]

> Maybe a note that stat loss (from a troll trying on an un-IDed
> ring of intelligence, say, or drinking an un-IDed potion of
> degeneration) can kill you.

You're right. What's the max loss of a potion of degeneration? (Or
should I just mention something like 'even a troll is better off
with an Int of at least 8 to evade deaths by stat loss' and hope
that number will cover all this stuff? The stuff being mentioned
anyway, but a newbie would need some guideline of where the
dangerous line is.)

>> Anything else?

> "Gross! I found a slimy shield! What should I do?"

:)  I'll add something on artifacts after the brands, as a
subcategory of identify.

> [...] The powerful magic of artifacts is such that merely wielding
> an artifact weapon or wearing artifact armor is enough to identify
> the item. You can examine an artifact's powers by using the
> [v]iew command.]

:)  That sounds as if it's an in-game text (a bit flowery for a
Guide).

> Also, stepping in deep water kills you unless you're
> levitating/flying or a merfolk. I think the same goes for lava.

True. I don't think merfolk can swim in lava, though. :) 

Thanks. :) 

--
Tina the Chopper - the Favourite Plaything of the Reborn Napping Groan
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 2:53:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:

>What was the formula and the hunger cost again? (Without knowing
>what 'free' and what 'high-level' is, this info won't do a newbie
>any good.)

From <URL:http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/spellhunger.shtml&gt;:

Casting spells increases your hunger. The amount of hunger the spell
causes depends on its level:

Spell Level Amount of Hunger
1 50
2 95
3 160
4 250
5 350
6 550
7 700
8 860
9 1000

From this base cost, subtract the product of your Spellcasting skill and
your Intelligence. So, a mage with Spellcasting 10 and Int 20 can cast a
level 3 spell for free, and a level 4 spell causes 50 units of hunger (250
- 10*20). For reference, a meat ration gives 5000 units of nutrition.

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 4:43:32 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On 3 Aug 04 22:32:02 GMT, jkuusist@cc.hut.fi (Jukka Kuusisto) wrote:

>May be. But I would say that my fire elementalists in general
>survive better than most other classes.

Of all the mage types, FEs have been the best for me, as well. And
Hill Orc is a good race. Reasonably good with fire magic, but not
frail like elves. The extra hit points right at the beginning, when
your magic lacks range, make a real difference in surviving long
enough to get cool spells like Sticky Flame.

>I sincerely recommend some melee fighting for all spellcasters...

Sure beats using all your spell power wiping out a bunch of rats and
bats and facing the gnolls that suddenly showed up with... a fistful
of darts.

>Because my current game with a demonspawn hunter has not ended
>yet :) 

What god(s) do you prefer with hunters? One of the reasons I feel
missile weapons aren't a good focus in Crawl is none of the gods
really feels right for shooter types. Haste is useful, but those who
grant it give might as well, which is melee oriented. I'd like to see
an archery god, who gives out shooters and ammunition, grants hasting
and some other power that works for shooters (maybe protection from
the missiles of others?), likes killing in his name and sacrifices of
corpses, maybe dislikes directly damaging magic (which competes with
missiles) when praying. It would make a good replacement for one of
Zin and the Shining One, the purity twins, who seem too alike to
justify keeping both when one playing style lacks a god altogether.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 12:46:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote in message news:<jcaug0h4h9hp7s4r51m1cndohr2jcb1jf9@4ax.com>...
> Ogres aren't fast and can't hit at a distance
> and don't come in packs, so they're pretty easy to stay away from and
> killing them isn't too hard if you have a poison ranged attacked (or
> sticky flame!).

Not sure if this is typical, but I was worried when an ogre ran
through my summoned column of flame, in a doorway or corridor, I was 3
spaces behind it but he cooked before he got to me. Are ogres always
that stupid? the spoilers say they've normal intelligence, I thought.
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 1:01:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

They're not necessarily easy to advance/win with, but ghoul fighters
(only class available) have fairly simple dynamics, as far as I can
tell.

1. turn off short blades skill immediately or shortly after advancing
to level2- -especially if "wielding your blade is awkward"
2. hack/slash, run (crawl). keep chunks until they rot or eat one if
you need HP's and a tough monster is >2 spaces away. if you've got
rotted chunks, you can wait for HP's to fill just like other
characters; rotting can be resolved by eating the rotted chunks.
3. consider getting a club, or weapon better for the strong; or
alternatively, work on unarmed combat on weak monsters (ghouls learn
Un Comb better than avg)
3. get armor.
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 7:27:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall wrote:
> Lars Kecke <kecke@physik.uni-freiburg.de> screeched:
>
>>Arien Malec wrote:
>>
>>>Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote in

>>>>- What monsters to look out for?
>>>
>
>>Orc warriors, jellies (look harmless, hit hard).
>
> True, and jellies also steal plusses, no?

To-dam plusses and armour plusses. After a jelly encounter you can even
have armour with a negative total AC like a -2 cloak. Dwarven stuff
resists 90% of the time.

> I find ants quite scary early on. They poison, don't they?

They do.

>> 'space bends|warps horribly around you' for the extra damage.
>
> Thanks. :)  How much damage is that? Is that the same effects when
> wielding it?

+1+(2d7)/2 and +3+(2d24)/2 resp.
On wielding/unwielding you get a level 9 translocation miscast effect
that can do up to 15+(2d29)/2 damage, banish you, conterminate you or
summon vortices.


>>it's curse_an_item(); curses weapons/rings/amulets/armour or
>>turns a stack of your potions into potions of decay.
>
> Thanks. :)  Is that any potion, or just beneficial ones, or just
> healing/heal wounds?

If I read the code correctly it's any potion that is not decay to begin
with.

Lars
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 9:47:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote in message
news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_2712fc84@fidonet.org...
> Jeremey Wilson <noaddressgiven@yahoo.com> moaned:
> > "Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote
> > Demonspawn fighters can be very good early if your first mutation
> > is a good one.
>
> Aren't they all supposed to be good? ;) 

I think so. I've never quite figured out why "You can travel at will to,
but not from, Pandemonium" is supposed to help.

Anyway, getting good scales or the +5 evasion field mutation early on can
get you pretty far. Sense surroundings, on the other hand, won't kill any
orc priests.

> >> - What monsters to look out for?
>> > Oh, and a kobold with a dagger of draining.
>
> I think that could be adjusted to 'a kobold with a dagger of foo',
> they all tend to be bad. :)  Or are daggers of draining more common
> (or weapons of draining in general)?

I have no idea. Now that I think about it, it seems like it, though. I
see lots of draining and venom, and go whole games without seeing
electrocution or distortion anything. But usually once I find a nice big
weapon I'll just enchant it myself, so I don't bother going through
everything I find on the floor.

Draining is an instadeath on XP level 1, though, and you don't even get an
"Ouch! That really hurt!" message.

> > [...] The powerful magic of artifacts is such that merely wielding
> > an artifact weapon or wearing artifact armor is enough to identify
> > the item. You can examine an artifact's powers by using the
> > [v]iew command.]
>
> :)  That sounds as if it's an in-game text (a bit flowery for a
> Guide).

Hey, write it however you want. I was just trying to be as unspoily as
possible.

--
Jeremey
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 9:48:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> barked:
> jkuusist@cc.hut.fi (Jukka Kuusisto) wrote:

>> May be. But I would say that my fire elementalists in general
>> survive better than most other classes.

> Of all the mage types, FEs have been the best for me, as well.
> And Hill Orc is a good race. Reasonably good with fire magic, but
> not frail like elves. The extra hit points right at the
> beginning, when your magic lacks range, make a real difference in
> surviving long enough to get cool spells like Sticky Flame.

Makes sense, but what about later in the game? Hill Orcs are good
with armour and bad with Dodging, which is what spellcasters are
better of with.

>> I sincerely recommend some melee fighting for all spellcasters...

> Sure beats using all your spell power wiping out a bunch of rats
> and bats and facing the gnolls that suddenly showed up with... a
> fistful of darts.

:)  I fight small stuff, too, to train Fighting for more hitpoints,
but fighting itself shouldn't be the way to go against big monsters
for a spellcaster, or else you'd end up with a fighter-mage which is
more difficult than a specialized character... Training Short Blades
(or anything else for that matter) is not really the way to go for a
spellcaster, IMO.

At best you'd end up with a Fighter with some supportive spells, and
not really a Fire Elementalist (I'm thinking of the Big Bad spells
like Firestorm being hardly available in the end, if you fight too
much melee).

>> Because my current game with a demonspawn hunter has not ended
>> yet :) 

> What god(s) do you prefer with hunters? One of the reasons I feel
> missile weapons aren't a good focus in Crawl is none of the gods
> really feels right for shooter types. [...] I'd like to see an
> archery god,

"AOL!" I have the same problem with Assassins and Thieves, who might
like this god, too.

> who gives out shooters and ammunition, grants hasting and some
> other power that works for shooters (maybe protection from the
> missiles of others?),

Sounds good.

> likes killing in his name and sacrifices of corpses,

Another that eats your food? ;)  Maybe he only likes killing animals?
(There are plenty of yak, frogs and stuff around.) Wouldn't fit a
Thief/Assassin, then, though.

> maybe dislikes directly damaging magic (which competes with
> missiles) when praying.

I don't see the reason for this. Wouldn't then 'damaging archers' be
more in his mind? Maybe he should like damaging magic because it
competes. He could be opposed to using rods (which so far is an
option for everyone), and when he grants deflect missiles at some
mid to late point, one of the most useful things that can be done
with a rod is covered.

> It would make a good replacement for one of Zin and the
> Shining One, the purity twins, who seem too alike to justify
> keeping both when one playing style lacks a god altogether.

At first I'd thought "What god could be replaced, though?", but I
agree here. If Zin is removed (or gets at least one of the Shining
One's abilities moved to him), a priest would be finally able to
Smite, which is why I keep confusing the two; NPC orc priests smite,
but no player priest can do that because none of their gods give the
ability.

The Shining Zin. Heh.

There was war among the gods!

Zin and The Shining One had for a long time grudingly tolerated the
gods of Death and Chaos, sitting at the fireplace, lamenting the
unholy practices and decadent lifestyles of of their darker
collegues. Elyvilon nodded wisely, horrified at the thought that so
many of her brothers reveled in bloodshed and vicious battle.

Off in a corner, Sif Muna looked up from her Tome of Ancient Magic
(by Sif Muna) and commented "Let the kids have some fun, they'll
grow up eventually.", unheard because of the noise in the next room.

In the next room, Nemelex Xobeh was performing card tricks, with
slight difficulties because Xom kept eating the cards he was
supposed to put back into the deck after chosing one, and Makhleb
amused himself by setting entire decks of cards on fire, or bursting
them into sparks showering the room, which Xom promptly turned into
butterflies.

Off to the side, Kikubaqudgha and Vehumet were discussing and
demonstrating the values of Necromancy versus Conjuration, with
Yredelemnul intently listening but not really comprehending even the
basics of spellcasting, so he threw in the occasional comment on the
value of zombies versus summoned critters, earning odd looks from
Vehumet and an indulgent smile and a pat from Kikubaqudgha.

Trog had stomped off into the kitchen, appaled at the magic, Okawaru
had followed, not because he agreed but to keep his brother company,
and it had gotten a little too noisy even for him. So they missed
the war. Even gods aren't safe from the irony of the Resident
Neanderthal Goblin.

It all began when a confused butterfly barely evaded a sizzling bolt
of fire from Vehumet, fled into the next room and landed on Zin's
shoulder. At the same moment, Yredelemnul had finally lost his
patience with the way the others treated him and demonstrated his
ability to draw the lifeforce out of all living creatures,
determined to get his point across. The poor butterly dissolved into
egg-yolk that slowly flowed down Zin's bright, white robe.

"That's it!" The Shining One roared, leaping out of his chair and
storming the next room with his sword drawn, Zin on his heels.
Elyvilon only watched them, startled and with apprehension.

Mayhem ensued, two against six are rather doomed odds, and they are
all gods, after all. Only moments later Zin and The Shining One came
limping back weakened and wounded beyond recovery, even beyond
Elyvilon's powers to restore.

Sif Muna looked up in surprize "What have they done now? Children!",
but got up and worked together with Elyvilon on the only option left
to them; merging what was left of Zin and The Shining One into one
whole god.

The Shining Zin was born.

Please send applications to take up the now vacant place of twelveth
god to your local Rummaging Nightly Goat.

The Shining Zin of Law
$ small chance of getting fed when starving
# may protect you from harm
* repel the undead (protective aura)
* minor healing
* smite your foes (more damage to undead)
* utter a Holy Word (damages undead)
* summon a divine warrior (a daeva)
+ killing undead creatures and demons [pray]
+ sacrificing corpses and valuable items at an altar
+ not doing the things he dislikes
- slaying holy beings, attacking friends, and the death of your
friends [any time]
- using unholy items and magics, using necromancy [any time]
- unchivalric attacks on sleeping or unaware opponents, and the use
of poison (only for paladins) [any time]

Would be the starting god of Priests and Paladins. That would be
better symmetry with Yredelemnul being the starting god of Priests
and Death Knights, too, because Death Knights can have Necromancy
instead. A Paladin could alternately also start with Elyvilon, and
the unchivalric disliked stuff moved to her.

--
Tina the Caller - the Champion of the Rudimentary Negotiating Gargoyle
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 9:48:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:48:00 GMT+1, Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall)
wrote:

> - using unholy items and magics, using necromancy [any time]

Which reminds me: what items and magics are "unholy" other than
necromancy spells and, I suppose, draining weapons?

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 10:39:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> writes:

>What god(s) do you prefer with hunters?

Okawaru, for the gifts, mostly. I also like might because my
hunters also do melee fighting. Elyvilon is another good
choice, in my opinion.

>I'd like to see an archery god,[...]

That's a great idea. I wouldn't mind if it was just added
to the game without replacing any existing god.

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto
Anonymous
August 4, 2004 10:52:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) writes:

>Makes sense, but what about later in the game? Hill Orcs are good
>with armour and bad with Dodging, which is what spellcasters are
>better of with.

I tend to wear the heaviest armour that I'm comfortable with,
meaning I can cast my spells well enough in it. As the armour
and spell skills go up, I can wear heavier armour.

>At best you'd end up with a Fighter with some supportive spells, and
>not really a Fire Elementalist (I'm thinking of the Big Bad spells
>like Firestorm being hardly available in the end, if you fight too
>much melee).

Well, I could cast Firestorm with my HOFE well enough.

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto
Anonymous
August 5, 2004 1:43:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"R. Dan Henry" <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote in message
news:nesvg0tps3vq4rddlvo7fe58nsb8msmou4@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 03 Aug 2004 13:10:34 -0700, R. Dan Henry
> <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote:
>
> >I'm playing through ten games with each combination and recording
> >results.
>
> Note: This is taking awhile. It would take even longer for a better
> player, who would have more characters survive for longer.
>

I am reasonably shoddy at Crawl. Would you like to share the combos and I
will join you in collecting this (personal) data?

I too think it would be interesting.

--
Glen
L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Anonymous
August 5, 2004 2:13:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, R. Dan Henry wrote:
>On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:48:00 GMT+1, Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall)
>wrote:
>
>> - using unholy items and magics, using necromancy [any time]
>
>Which reminds me: what items and magics are "unholy" other than
>necromancy spells and, I suppose, draining weapons?

Well, The Shining One was most unhappy at the use of a "Call Imp" spell
from a rod of demonology.

--
Erik I. Bolsø | email: <knan at mo.himolde.no>
The UNIX philosophy basically involves giving you enough rope to
hang yourself. And then a couple of feet more, just to be sure.
Anonymous
August 8, 2004 5:32:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

You ll have to forgive me if I am mistaken, but since I am myself a
beginner, I thought I would answer some stuff I have already figured
out on my own :) 

> >> - How to prevent starvation?
>
> > Carry chunks.
>

As soon as you are hungry, it seems that you can eat a lot of stuff
you d fin disgusting otherwise. So killing something _quick_ seems a
good idea.
I was expecting to die of starvation quickly with my Minotaur, given
how hard ADOM was with Trolls, but it seems Crawl isnt so harsh.

> >> - What's the message that a weapon of distortion gives when a
> >> monster hits the player with it? (What are all the various
> >> effects from wielding/unwielding them?)
>
> > Advanced topic, I think.
>
> It's vital, I think, because it can happen early and kill the
> character, so they need to know the risk. Minimizing it by not test
> wielding all and every weapon, but just those that are useful to you
> or look particularly interesting, should be mentioned. Then, which
> weapon not to test-wield when you found out what it is by someone
> else hitting you with it. (I'll also mention that some people think
> weapons of distortion are the best thing since sliced bread. :)  )
>

Oh no, please DO mention weapons that would be dangerous to my
character.
I would really have liked to know what a Distruption Staff was before
I decided to wield. It was the best weapon I had so far (I use Maces),
so I thought why not. Next thing I know, I am in the Abyss. I am
confused, disoriented, and gangbanged by a bunch of imps... oh what a
was to die.

Also could someone explain what the colours mean when you have a
weapon ?
I have cyan, brown, and even a red weapon.
Or the glows ? (well, it's pretty obvious, but still).
And what the heck does a Hammer of Retribution do ?
my sword of draining is explained, my staff of distruption too, but
who is being Retributed by my hammer ?

> > [snip]
> >> General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like
> >> to write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a
> >> lot do do all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some
> >> stuff).
>

I am much too newbie to write anything, but I d really like one or two
things :

- can anyone explain how to acquire magic abilities when you start
with a character that doesnt have that much ? (Say, my MiCK, who has
two useless spellbooks)

- How to please your God. So far I only worship Makhleb, who is pretty
easily pleased. But people who have a favourite could describe him/her
?

- So far, I have figured out one good strategy that cull out the weak
characters rather quickly and get quite a lot of knowledge quickly.
Simply put, carry everything you can on you for a level or two.
When you have a good amount of scrolls/potions (say, a dozen of each),
find a nice spot, read EVERY scroll you have, drink every potion,
starting with the ones you have in duplicate.
So far, every time I had a scroll of curse weapon, I had also the
remove curse scrolls, and potions of healing being common, if by
mistake I took poison I could heal quickly enough.
Of course, I am playing a Minotaur, so I am not sure how this would
fare against a weaker creature.
And you can get really unlucky like my current MiCK who drank a potion
of degeneration

BTW, can you gain perks with mutations, or only flaws ? Because among
all the flaws the potion gave me, it increased my Intelligence, and I
am unsure if that's the potion or not. It s listed as a mutation,
though, so I am tempted to drink my _second_ potion

> > Combat strategy: selecting when and where to fight is essential
> > to survive in a role that emphasizes combat. Never take enemies
> > out in the open, even when they are weak.
>

Mmmh, writing a startegy guide on fighting should always start with
what character you are playing.
I am pretty sure if I play a halfling I wont try to fight barehanded,
whereas with my minotaur, I have had a few moments where I did it as a
challenge (I would love to know if this make a difference in the eyes
of Makhleb)

> A single monster? Or a horde?
>
> > Always retreat to corridors so you can take creatures on one by
> > one, and don't be afraid to run upstairs or downstairs. [...]
>

That 's a classic from DnD, if you are outnumbered, a corridor is the
only place to fight.

Never fight a monster in the open, even if he is alone, even if he is
weak, because if it takes you more than one blow, you could suddenly
see OTHER monsters coming in, and if you are too slow, then you are in
trouble.
In other words, NEVER let them flank you, or circle you. Even if they
are not here ... yet :) 

> I forgot up/downstairs. That's sometimes handy to get rid of surplus
> monsters (when the other end of the stairs has only one square
> adjacent to you).

Yes, that was a rather nice surprise to see only one monster follow me
up the stairs. Gave me a chance to take them one by one.


It would be nice if people who have a favourite race/class combo that
they have found works could describe how they play it.
Personally, I usually play barbarian types, as they are rather
appropriate for the type of game. But if someone explained to me how
to properly play a magician, I d love to give it a try...

----------
genken
Anonymous
August 8, 2004 5:39:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Oh yes, could you also explain what the story is for patches and
versions of the game ?
I have only found one version, 4.0.0 26, but I keep hearing about
patches and other things here on the group.
For instance, what's the travel patch ?

I am sure that would be useful to a beginner like me.

Oh, and maybe when you are writing the guide, try to explain acronyms,
or expand them the first time you use them. I understand how to decode
the 4 letters race/class ones, but if it's, say, the title of a
paragraph, I think it would be nice to explain.
Also what the heck is an OOD monster ? :p 

--------
genken
Anonymous
August 8, 2004 7:32:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On 8 Aug 2004 13:32:33 -0700, ahw@mindless.com (Genken) wrote:

>I would really have liked to know what a Distruption Staff was before
>I decided to wield. It was the best weapon I had so far (I use Maces),

A staff is not a mace.

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 9, 2004 5:38:37 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote in message news:<jcadh09gk2p2r911o77p47mgk6q050tdds@4ax.com>...
> On 8 Aug 2004 13:32:33 -0700, ahw@mindless.com (Genken) wrote:
>
> >I would really have liked to know what a Distruption Staff was before
> >I decided to wield. It was the best weapon I had so far (I use Maces),
>
> A staff is not a mace.
>

Ah yes, that too <g>
Which reminds me to ask. What's the influence of skill on using
weapons.
For instance, in the above example,
the staff is noted 7,+6 in the description, but I have only skill 1 in
Staves,
, whereas the Hammer of Redistribution is noted 7,+2, but I have skill
8

So how do I choose which is best ? And I d really like to know what
the damn Hammer does, 'cause the only hint I get is, once in a while
after I hit something : "you are wielding the Hammer of
Redistribution"...
Anonymous
August 9, 2004 4:28:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Genken wrote:
> R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote in message news:<jcadh09gk2p2r911o77p47mgk6q050tdds@4ax.com>...



> Ah yes, that too <g>
> Which reminds me to ask. What's the influence of skill on using
> weapons.

It's threefold. First you get 10% bonus to the weapon's speed for every
two levels of skill, second you get a bonus of d(skill+1) and
d(fighting+1) to-hit,
third your damage gets multiplied by (25+d(skill+1))/25 (round down)and
(30+d(fighting+1)/30 (round down).


> For instance, in the above example,
> the staff is noted 7,+6 in the description, but I have only skill 1 in
> Staves,

so it's up to 7*(27/25)+6=13 @ speed 12, not counting strength, dex and
fighting skill.


> , whereas the Hammer of Redistribution is noted 7,+2, but I have skill
> 8

7*(34/25)+2=11 @ speed 9

> So how do I choose which is best ? And I d really like to know what
> the damn Hammer does, 'cause the only hint I get is, once in a while
> after I hit something : "you are wielding the Hammer of
> Redistribution"...

So it does nothing (but better check with 'v'). Sometimes the only
property of randarts is that they are resistant to corrosion and further
enchantments.

Lars
Anonymous
August 9, 2004 6:06:47 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

> Also what the heck is an OOD monster ? :p 
>
> --------
> genken

OOD-Out of Depth, I imagine; e.g. a dragon at level 1 or somesuch.
Anonymous
August 10, 2004 12:41:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Genken" <ahw@mindless.com> wrote in message
news:4f79df0e.0408090038.20790d2@posting.google.com...
> R. Dan Henry <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote in message
news:<jcadh09gk2p2r911o77p47mgk6q050tdds@4ax.com>...
> > On 8 Aug 2004 13:32:33 -0700, ahw@mindless.com (Genken) wrote:
> >
> > >I would really have liked to know what a Distruption Staff was before
> > >I decided to wield. It was the best weapon I had so far (I use Maces),
> >
> > A staff is not a mace.
> >
>
> Ah yes, that too <g>
> Which reminds me to ask. What's the influence of skill on using
> weapons.
> For instance, in the above example,
> the staff is noted 7,+6 in the description, but I have only skill 1 in
> Staves,
> , whereas the Hammer of Redistribution is noted 7,+2, but I have skill
> 8
>
> So how do I choose which is best ? And I d really like to know what
> the damn Hammer does, 'cause the only hint I get is, once in a while
> after I hit something : "you are wielding the Hammer of
> Redistribution"...

Press v then the inventory letter of the hammer...

--
Glen
L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Anonymous
August 10, 2004 3:07:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Lars Kecke <kecke@physik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote in message news:<411751D8.4040202@physik.uni-freiburg.de>...

> It's threefold. First you get 10% bonus to the weapon's speed for every
> two levels of skill, second you get a bonus of d(skill+1) and
> d(fighting+1) to-hit,
> third your damage gets multiplied by (25+d(skill+1))/25 (round down)and
> (30+d(fighting+1)/30 (round down).

THANK YOU.
Yes, I am shouting, but this was much more helpful, and in the spirit
of what I wanted to know. I think even a beginner at Crawl would know
how to use the help file and read the readme.txt

>
> So it does nothing (but better check with 'v'). Sometimes the only
> property of randarts is that they are resistant to corrosion and further
> enchantments.
>
> Lars

Yeah, actually, it's called the hammer "of Equitable Redistribution".
And in the travel patched version I just got its name changes to
hammer "of Reason".
I guess you must be right.
I was just hoping someone would tell me what the colour of the weapon
meant (it shows up as red when I wield it, whereas my normal weapons
are cyan)

anyway, back to more Crawling ! This idea of a Beginner's guide would
_really_ be a Godsend

------------
genken
Anonymous
August 11, 2004 11:15:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

dalton_wudrich@hotmail.com (Dalton Wudrich) wrote in message news:<73c2de9e.0408030600.8649a2d@posting.google.com>...
> Tina_Hall wrote:
> > - What is the best strategy to escape from an Ogre (or other OOD
> > monster) on DL:1?
> Hit "Q" then "Y", and try again!

Ok, here is a more serious response:

This doesn't just apply to DL:1. The solution can be applied any time
in the game where you are facing a monster (or monsters) that have a
good chance of killing you with 1-2 hits, and you have very little
chance of killing them first.

Your options get narrowed down very fast, depending on whether you are
faster than the monster or not:
1) You are faster:
1a) Find out how much faster you are. Determine if it is: "stepback,
hit, stepback, hit, repeat..." or is it "back, back, back, hit,
repeat..." or something else, then slowly wear them down.
1b) Run away to the nearest safe "up" stairs, rest then go back down
and try again. (on the first level, this isn't an option)
1c) Run away, down stairs. Keep Crawling. Then come back when you
are stronger. >-)

2) You are the same speed:
2a) Pillar dance.
2b) Make yourself faster! Or them slower.
If it worked, see option 1).
Some ways to get faster: potion of speed, Flying, Swiftness spell.
Make them slower: wand of Slowing, wand of Paralysis, wand of
Confusion
2c) Lose them in traffic:
It works like this, run away (with the monster following you)
until you find another monster. Do NOT run in corridors! Run in open
spaces. With any luck, this second monster can't kill you with one
hit...otherwise you are in bigger trouble - oops! It works better if
you are facing a couple of monsters, one real-nasty and the others
'easy'. This way you know what you are dealing with, and not some
random monster.
Now the tricky part - you will likely have to risk getting hit
once. (preferably by the 'easy' monster)
Make your way toward a staircase. On the way there, you want to
switch which monster is beside you. This can happen when you go around
pillars (single square of rock), or in open spaces if you stop running
(attack, zap, fire, quaff, whatever) for one turn. Once you have the
desired monster (the easy one) beside you, go up the staircase, kill
it, rest, then go back for the nasty one. :-)
Experiment with this! I found it useful in the Mines to get a
normal orc beside me instead of a nasty Orc Warlord. Bats, snakes and
jackals are good traffic blockers, as they are faster than many nasty
monsters & get in the nasty monster's way; yet they are not
immediately lethal to most characters.
2d) Give them another target.
Use a wand of Enslavement on a nearby monster and get the other
monster to attack the nasty monster. The nasty monster will (sooner or
later) attack the Enslaved monster - allowing you to escape.
2e) Feint. (I'm not sure what to call this...)
This one requires that you risk getting hit. And works best if the
attacker is wielding a slow weapon such as a Halberd, Axe, Great Mace
or Great Sword. (Which means getting hit is a bad thing...oh well!)
You use your opponent's slow attack to make space between you and
them, then run away up the stairs!
Perform a very fast action such as switching weapons or attacking
with a weapon of "Speed". Step back. With some luck, you are still
alive and there is a space between you and the attacker. Run!
2f) Walk across a trap.
Some monsters will not follow you across a trap. The risk here is
obvious.

3) You are slower:
This is tough, particularly if you can not handle even one more hit.
Try options 2b, 2d, 2c and 2f.

Good Luck!
-Dalton
Anonymous
September 9, 2004 11:05:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Genken <ahw@mindless.com> shouted:

The thread has died down enough to dump it all into a file and sort
it into the guide, and I noticed some unread messages, thus the
answer is a little delayed.

>>>> - How to prevent starvation?
>>
>>> Carry chunks.
>>

> As soon as you are hungry, it seems that you can eat a lot of
> stuff you d fin disgusting otherwise.

Depends on your race, but most do have to be hungry to voluntarily
eat raw meat.

> So killing something _quick_ seems a good idea.

What do you mean by 'killing something _quick_'? Find a monster to
kill and eat?

> I was expecting to die of starvation quickly with my Minotaur,
> given how hard ADOM was with Trolls, but it seems Crawl isnt so
> harsh.

Try a centaur. ;) 

> Oh no, please DO mention weapons that would be dangerous to my
> character.

I will. :) 

> Also could someone explain what the colours mean when you have a
> weapon ?
> I have cyan, brown, and even a red weapon.

Material of the weapon, brown is wood, cyan is metal, and I could
only guess 'red'.

> Or the glows ? (well, it's pretty obvious, but still).

You mean a glowing weapon? It indicates some special enchanted
weapon. It might be cursed, and/or have negative enchantment, and/or
plusses, special brands, or even be an artifact.

> And what the heck does a Hammer of Retribution do ?

Press 'v' (for view) then chose the weapon. If it doesn't tell you
anthing special, then it just has an odd name without any extra
traits. It's also an artifact, that means it can't be further
enchanted or corroded.

> my sword of draining is explained, my staff of distruption too,
> but who is being Retributed by my hammer ?

<red blinking nonsense warning _warning_ warning _warning_>

Once upon a time Timidfoot, a dwarf from the lower regions of the
Deep Caves, was in love with Plumcheek, a lady dwarf with the cutest
beard in the entire mountain. Just as shy little Timidfood was
making some progress at enticing the lady to a date, Bigmuscle from
the Upper Caves came for a visit, and charmed naive Plumcheek with
his exotic ways and boisterous tales to come with him. Heartbroken
Timidfood pondered how to win her over, and then decided to create a
mighty weapon that'd teach the usurper.

He forged a stout hammer, but unfortunately didn't know enough magic
to make it as mighty as he'd hoped, just enough so the hammer knew
its purpose. He then packed his backpack for the trip to the Upper
Caves and began the ascend.

When he had almost arrived at his destination, he came upon wounded
and fleeing dwarves, and soon they swarmed up from his home regions
too, telling tales of masses of orcs and ogres and horrenduous
monsters driving the dwarves out of their homes, too many to fight
back successfully. Not long after, Timidfoot found himself battling
those creatures, but like his brethren he fell before the mighty
hordes.

All that was left behind was his hammer.

This also explains why there's all sorts of dwarvish stuff lying
around the dungeon, with never a dwarf in sight.

</nonsense>

Oh, you wanted to know what happened to Plumcheek and Bigmuscle?
Well, I guess you might have met Wayne on occasion, or will one
day... He had been scouting the dungeon for the invaders in the
disguise of Bigmuscle from <a different region>. Plumcheek escaped
and went to live with her distant kin in the hills, married, and
founded a dynasty of brave dwarves who still occasionally go into
their former home mountains to retrieve the long lost Orb.

>>> [snip]
>>>> General: Do any of you have any favorite topic that you'd like
>>>> to write a paragraph or two about? I notice that it's quite a
>>>> lot do do all on my own (and puzzling on how to phrase some
>>>> stuff).
>>

> I am much too newbie to write anything, but I d really like one
> or two things :

> - can anyone explain how to acquire magic abilities when you
> start with a character that doesnt have that much ? (Say, my
> MiCK, who has two useless spellbooks)

You probably don't have enough Int to make that worthwhile. Not
everything you find will be of use to you, spellbooks are among
these for fighters. Especially when later in the game the much
heavier armour you might wear will ruin any chance at spellcasting.
You could try for some low level spells, if you like, of course
(don't cast anything at a worse rate than 'fair').

Reading scrolls will eventually provide you with a spellcasting
skill of 1. From then on, only casting spells will exercise that.

> - How to please your God. So far I only worship Makhleb, who is
> pretty easily pleased. But people who have a favourite could
> describe him/her ?

I've posted some god spoiler a while ago, that has short
descriptions on what they do, and want from you. It all depends on
what you want, and the in-game description of a god can give you an
idea of what they want.

Makhleb will grant you some abilities to throw about random spells
(two different levels) and summon random demons (two different
levels of that, too). For a fighter, Okawaru seems a good idea; some
nice abilities (haste, heal, and might) and he drops some stuff
occasionally, to please him just pray before every battle, to make
sure everything you kill is in his name, and then dissect what you
don't want to eat, while still praying.

> - So far, I have figured out one good strategy that cull out the
> weak characters rather quickly and get quite a lot of knowledge
> quickly. Simply put, carry everything you can on you for a level
> or two. When you have a good amount of scrolls/potions (say, a
> dozen of each), find a nice spot, read EVERY scroll you have,
> drink every potion, starting with the ones you have in duplicate.

That's a good plan. I'd suggest that nice spot to be the upstairs of
the next level (before exploring), because of 'forgetfulness' and
'magic mapping', and you can go straight back upstairs after you
read a scroll of teleport, and then have the teleportation kick in
in familiar territory.

Apart from that, this is pretty much what I've already got in the
guide. :)  (It also mentiones only testing potions in an emergency,
to evade wasting a potion of cure mutation, as an option/alternate
strategy.)

> BTW, can you gain perks with mutations, or only flaws ?

You can get good as well as bad mutations.

> Because among all the flaws the potion gave me, it increased my
> Intelligence, and I am unsure if that's the potion or not. It s
> listed as a mutation, though, so I am tempted to drink my
> _second_ potion

There's a command ('\'? not sure, I've got a makro putting that on a
less inconvenient key) that'll list the items you know. If it
doesn't list 'potion of gain intelligence', then it is from the
potion of mutation. (Both is possible.)

>>> Combat strategy: selecting when and where to fight is essential
>>> to survive in a role that emphasizes combat. Never take enemies
>>> out in the open, even when they are weak.

> Mmmh, writing a startegy guide on fighting should always start
> with what character you are playing.

There are some general guidelines, though.

> I am pretty sure if I play a halfling I wont try to fight
> barehanded, whereas with my minotaur, I have had a few moments
> where I did it as a challenge (I would love to know if this make
> a difference in the eyes of Makhleb)

No, I doubt it'd make any difference for him how you kill the
monsters...

[...]
> In other words, NEVER let them flank you, or circle you. Even if
> they are not here ... yet :) 

That does depend on what kind of character you are. As a Summoner,
out in the open is better in a lot of cases, because then your
friends can surround (flank, circle) the monster. :) 

>> I forgot up/downstairs. That's sometimes handy to get rid of
>> surplus monsters (when the other end of the stairs has only one
>> square adjacent to you).

> Yes, that was a rather nice surprise to see only one monster
> follow me up the stairs. Gave me a chance to take them one by
> one.

You do know that the others come up the stairs, too, just end up
somewhere else on the level, yes?

> It would be nice if people who have a favourite race/class combo
> that they have found works could describe how they play it.

Anything that ends up casting Summon Horrible Things and Tomb of
Doroklohe. :) 

Race: Deep Elf or Sludge Elf
Role: Summoner or Earth Elementalist

Summoner is easier in the early game, just call in rats and bats
(around 4, you start with 6 mana as a Deep Elf), 'y'ell at them to
attack the monster, than shuffle away inconspiciously. :) 

Summoning bats and rats to block that ogre who'd otherwise flatten
your frail character (Deep Elf start with only 6 Hp, too), so you
can run away, is useful, as well.

> Personally, I usually play barbarian types, as they are rather
> appropriate for the type of game. But if someone explained to me
> how to properly play a magician, I d love to give it a try...

As a spellcaster, you need to stay at a distance from the monster,
throw things (whatever spell you've got) at them, and run away a
lot. That actually makes them easier, because you don't have to
close up while they might throw their things at you. :)  You just
have to keep in mind that 'running down the monster' is just about
the worst strategy you could employ.

--
Tina the Sensei - the Favourite Plaything of the Regal Nibbling Gal
!