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[Crawl] Maces?

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Anonymous
August 4, 2004 3:45:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

What's the best mace in the game? Which is best as a one-handed or
two-handed mace? What if an at least moderately useful shield is
available?

I've got

a +1,+2 great mace of holy wrath
a +0 orcish great mace
a +0,+1 orcish spiked flail
a +0,+3 orcish mace of draining

and a +1 buckler of protection. (I'm a Hill Orc btw.)

Problem:

There should be plenty of scrolls (in the long run) to enchant one
weapon up but I don't know which.

I'm not sure whether the orcish spiked flail is the best one-handed
weapon around.

I keep confusing the holy wrath and disruption weapons. Which one is
which concerning undead and demons? (I could hope to find the other,
I'm not that far into the game yet.) On the long run, something
against demons, would be useful. (As a Priest of Yredelemnul,
there's stuff against living
  • and undead creatures (if that
    works, anyway), but nothing against demons.)

    At the moment I carry

    a - an uncursed great mace (weapon)
    w - a +4,+4 mace of protection

    and am testing the great mace for plusses, otherwise the mace of
    protection goes along with the buckler. It's not unreasonable to
    expect a better shield to turn up eventually... If this particular
    HOPr survives better than his predecessors, anyway. (Which he does
    so far. Of course one of the previous ones ran into the obligatory
    invisible vampire servant again. This one, who's got a ring of see
    invisible, gets skeletal warriors, for example, and had them kill
    the single pesky vampire slave that was dropped so far. Damn rats
    and bats got on my nerves.)

  • Definitely fun in the Orcish Mines when a horde pops around the
    corner. :)  And then the faithful skeletal warrior turns all the dead
    orcs into zombies, which don't survive long but it's entertaining -
    as long as I don't want to eat them... (Oh, I just notice,
    mentioning that canibalism isn't an issue might be a good idea for
    the Guide.)

    --
    Tina the Brawler - a Follower of the Recently Norwegian Gearbox
  • More about : crawl maces

    Anonymous
    August 5, 2004 3:47:59 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    In article <MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_2712fc9c@fidonet.org>,
    Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
    >What's the best mace in the game?

    Depends what you want to do. If you want to have a happy rampage through
    Hell/Pandemonium/the Abyss etc, then

    > a +1,+2 great mace of holy wrath

    is the perfect weapon. However, if you're going to romp through
    Pandemonium, then you'll find quite a few enchant weapons scrolls there
    anyway, so it's probably not worth burning scrolls on early on.

    > a +0,+3 orcish mace of draining

    so I'd go for this in the interim.

    >I keep confusing the holy wrath and disruption weapons.

    Holy wrath does up to double damage to undead and up to 2.5 x damage to
    demons. Disruption does up to quintuple damage to undead, but only 66%
    of the time. For damage-multiplier weapons like these, especially
    against enemies with high AC, slow-but-damaging weapons are a big win
    over fast-but-light weapons. A well-enchanted great mace of holy wrath
    is about as good as it gets for demon-thwapping.

    > w - a +4,+4 mace of protection

    For fighter-types, I prefer offence over defence once your AC is
    sufficiently high. The extra damage of the draining will take out
    enemies faster and is a net win over the extra 1d5 damage reduction from
    the mace of protection, especially if your AC is already over 15ish.
    Weak critters already find it hard to hurt you, and the stone giants
    will hurt you just as much through 20AC as 15AC :) .

    --
    Mark Mackey
    The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
    Hints, tips and spoilers
    http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/
    Anonymous
    August 5, 2004 8:58:00 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> croaked:
    > Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:

    >> What's the best mace in the game?

    > Depends what you want to do. If you want to have a happy rampage
    > through Hell/Pandemonium/the Abyss etc, then

    Eek. :)  That SEEE is still parked because he wanted to go there and
    is scared... (Still don't know what to do with him. I need advice,
    knowledge, a plan, Help! <g>)

    >> a +1,+2 great mace of holy wrath

    > is the perfect weapon. However, if you're going to romp through
    > Pandemonium, then you'll find quite a few enchant weapons scrolls
    > there anyway, so it's probably not worth burning scrolls on early
    > on.

    That's good to know, if I ever go there voluntarily. :) 

    The idea was just that since I've got Yredelemnul abilities against
    undead and living creatures, I'd like something else against demons.

    >> a +0,+3 orcish mace of draining

    > so I'd go for this in the interim.

    I tried it. I had big difficulties in the Swamp and was trying to
    find a weapon that was actually of some use against the hydras and
    swamp dragons, whenever I didn't have to wield some silly sword as
    the only source of poison resistance - got a swamp dragon armour
    now, though. I took this one back home again and tried the next one.
    The orcish great mace went best, so I enchanted that for now (hoping
    for another vorpalize scroll - the first was wasted as usual). Since
    I found a rod of destruction (Ice, but nice, still) in the first
    level of the Snake Pit, a shield would be cumbersome anyway...

    >> I keep confusing the holy wrath and disruption weapons.

    > Holy wrath does up to double damage to undead and up to 2.5 x
    > damage to demons. Disruption does up to quintuple damage to
    > undead, but only 66% of the time.

    Thanks. (Now how to remember that... Hmmm... Maybe because it
    disrupts the already half-decayed tissue and bones of zombies and
    skeletons.)

    > For damage-multiplier weapons like these, especially against
    > enemies with high AC, slow-but-damaging weapons are a big win over
    > fast-but-light weapons.

    What good are shields then, if the best option is a two-handed
    weapon? Non-Fighters might have some other way to block missiles,
    but Fighters at best have a rod, if they took the time to train
    Evocations and found/aquired the relevant one...

    Or the other way round. What kind of character is best of with the
    biggest one-handed weapon and a shield? A hunter?

    > A well-enchanted great mace of holy wrath is about as good as it
    > gets for demon-thwapping.

    How does it compare to a <race-fitting> great mace of crushing? That
    does double damage, too, no? (So Holy Wrath is 0.5 of the base
    damage more against demons, right?)

    >> w - a +4,+4 mace of protection

    > For fighter-types, I prefer offence over defence once your AC is
    > sufficiently high.

    It wasn't. Another problem... A plain +2 orcish plate mail turned
    out better than some other +0 artifact mail. :) 

    > The extra damage of the draining will take out enemies faster and
    > is a net win over the extra 1d5 damage reduction from the mace of
    > protection, especially if your AC is already over 15ish.

    My EV is still only about half my AC (though that's 21/10 at the
    moment, it was more like 14/8 without that mace at that point).

    > Weak critters already find it hard to hurt you, and the stone
    > giants will hurt you just as much through 20AC as 15AC :) .

    Just as much? I still don't find them all that bad. :) 

    Thanks! Btw, you reminded me of some stuff that should go into the
    Guide as well. :) 

    --
    Tina the Hoplite - a Believer of the Reclusive Noiseless Guide
    Related resources
    Anonymous
    August 6, 2004 12:57:49 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in
    news:FAi*xqirq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk:

    > In article <MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_2712fc9c@fidonet.org>,
    > Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
    >>What's the best mace in the game?
    >
    > Depends what you want to do. If you want to have a happy rampage through
    > Hell/Pandemonium/the Abyss etc, then
    >
    >> a +1,+2 great mace of holy wrath
    >
    > is the perfect weapon. However, if you're going to romp through
    > Pandemonium, then you'll find quite a few enchant weapons scrolls there
    > anyway, so it's probably not worth burning scrolls on early on.
    >
    Sword of slicing was better. Or rather equal (if it would be simillary
    enchanted). One of biggest problems in P that I had were 3 Executioners.
    Survived only by burning several scrolls of blinking and teleportation, then
    jumped into the closest portal with just one Executioner behind the back.

    >> a +0,+3 orcish mace of draining
    >
    > so I'd go for this in the interim.
    >
    Lich touch is better.

    >>I keep confusing the holy wrath and disruption weapons.
    >
    Easiest cure is to be hit by one, then you'd remmember well. ~_^




    --
    Kizutsuite 'ta ano hi kara
    Anonymous
    August 6, 2004 5:26:00 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Raghar <notfor@mail.com> bellowed:
    > Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote
    >>Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:

    >>> a +0,+3 orcish mace of draining
    >>
    >> so I'd go for this in the interim.
    >>
    > Lich touch is better.

    How's a Hill Orc Priest supposed to do that?

    >>> I keep confusing the holy wrath and disruption weapons.
    >>
    > Easiest cure is to be hit by one, then you'd remmember well. ~_^

    If you're not an undead or a demon, what good does that do?

    (Btw, what's that data garbage doing at the end of your line? Some
    problem with your software?)

    --
    Tina the Invulnerable - the Favourite Plaything of the Ritually Notorious Gem
    Anonymous
    August 6, 2004 5:31:11 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    "Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote in message
    news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_272b3418@fidonet.org...
    > Raghar <notfor@mail.com> bellowed:
    > > Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote
    > >>Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
    >
    > >>> a +0,+3 orcish mace of draining
    > >>
    > >> so I'd go for this in the interim.
    > >>
    > > Lich touch is better.
    >
    > How's a Hill Orc Priest supposed to do that?
    >
    > >>> I keep confusing the holy wrath and disruption weapons.
    > >>
    > > Easiest cure is to be hit by one, then you'd remmember well. ~_^
    >
    > If you're not an undead or a demon, what good does that do?
    >
    > (Btw, what's that data garbage doing at the end of your line? Some
    > problem with your software?)
    >

    Just in case you're not joking, that's an emoticon. Think vertical.


    --
    Glen
    L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
    W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
    Anonymous
    August 6, 2004 5:31:12 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:31:11 +1000, "Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au>
    wrote:

    >"Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote in message
    >news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_272b3418@fidonet.org...
    >> Raghar <notfor@mail.com> bellowed:


    >> > Easiest cure is to be hit by one, then you'd remmember well. ~_^

    >> (Btw, what's that data garbage doing at the end of your line? Some
    >> problem with your software?)

    > Just in case you're not joking, that's an emoticon.

    He's lost an eye?

    Richard Daniel Henry
    danhenry@inreach.com
    Anonymous
    August 6, 2004 5:31:12 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Glen Wheeler <gew75@uow.edu.au> screeched:
    > "Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote
    >> Raghar <notfor@mail.com> bellowed:

    >>> Easiest cure is to be hit by one, then you'd remmember well.
    >>> ~_^
    >>
    >> If you're not an undead or a demon, what good does that do?
    >>
    >> (Btw, what's that data garbage doing at the end of your line?
    >> Some problem with your software?)

    > Just in case you're not joking, that's an emoticon. Think
    > vertical.

    Eh? Whatever this is supposed to be, it is not the common language,
    which is smileys. Just like English is the common language, and
    Polish would be only understandable to some.

    I'd appreciate it if you supply a translation when you are using
    other languages than the common one, unless you don't care whether
    the meaning of what you say is lost.

    --
    Tina the Hacker - a Believer of the Relentless National Glimmer
    Anonymous
    August 6, 2004 5:31:13 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
    >Glen Wheeler <gew75@uow.edu.au> screeched:
    >> Just in case you're not joking, that's an emoticon. Think
    >> vertical.
    >
    >Eh? Whatever this is supposed to be, it is not the common language,
    >which is smileys. Just like English is the common language, and
    >Polish would be only understandable to some.

    In some online communities, sideways smileys are rare and the ^_^
    format of emoticons is the norm. (I believe ^_^ and its ilk are
    particularly popular among anime fans.)

    Off the top of my head:

    ^_^ happy
    >_< scowling
    ^^; sad (the ';' is supposed to be tears)
    O.O startled (big staring shocked eyes)

    m.
    --
    Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
    Anonymous
    August 6, 2004 8:33:00 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> bellowed:
    > Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
    >> Glen Wheeler <gew75@uow.edu.au> screeched:

    >>> Just in case you're not joking, that's an emoticon. Think
    >>> vertical.
    >>
    >> Eh? Whatever this is supposed to be, it is not the common
    >> language, which is smileys. Just like English is the common
    >> language, and Polish would be only understandable to some.

    > In some online communities, sideways smileys are rare and the ^_^
    > format of emoticons is the norm. (I believe ^_^ and its ilk are
    > particularly popular among anime fans.)

    See? It's some foreign language that might be fine on its native
    ground but is useless here. We talk English here for a reason,
    instead of demanding that everyone else learns the others' native
    languages.

    --
    Tina the Firebug - a Follower of the Rudimentary Normal Gorge
    Anonymous
    August 6, 2004 8:59:39 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    "R. Dan Henry" <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote in message
    news:o r76h05rf5tro90on27ao7758290o2kfp1@4ax.com...
    > On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:31:11 +1000, "Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >"Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote in message
    > >news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_272b3418@fidonet.org...
    > >> Raghar <notfor@mail.com> bellowed:
    >
    >
    > >> > Easiest cure is to be hit by one, then you'd remmember well. ~_^
    >
    > >> (Btw, what's that data garbage doing at the end of your line? Some
    > >> problem with your software?)
    >
    > > Just in case you're not joking, that's an emoticon.
    >
    > He's lost an eye?
    >

    I believe that's meant to be a wink...
    ...although with Raghar, you can never be sure ;) .

    --
    Glen
    L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
    W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
    Anonymous
    August 6, 2004 9:28:38 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    In article <MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_272328ae@fidonet.org>,
    Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
    >Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> croaked:
    >
    >> For damage-multiplier weapons like these, especially against
    >> enemies with high AC, slow-but-damaging weapons are a big win over
    >> fast-but-light weapons.
    >
    >What good are shields then, if the best option is a two-handed
    >weapon?

    I'm not saying that you _have_ to use a two-handed weapon here. The
    point is more that damage-multiplier brands work better on high-damage
    weapons. At the extremes, a great mace of electrocution and a knife of
    slicing are equally useless :) . If you want to use a shield, then there
    are quite a few high-damage one-handed maces around...

    >> A well-enchanted great mace of holy wrath is about as good as it
    >> gets for demon-thwapping.
    >
    >How does it compare to a <race-fitting> great mace of crushing? That
    >does double damage, too, no?

    No. Crushing (and other 'vorpal' enchantments) do up to 50% more damage.
    The damage bonus for the holy wrath mace against demons is 3 times
    greater than the crushing mace.
    >
    >> For fighter-types, I prefer offence over defence once your AC is
    >> sufficiently high.
    >
    >My EV is still only about half my AC (though that's 21/10 at the
    >moment, it was more like 14/8 without that mace at that point).

    14/8 is perfectly acceptable in the mid-game, and the difference between
    14 and 19 (from the protection weapon) is starting to become
    insignificant.

    --
    Mark Mackey
    The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
    Hints, tips and spoilers
    http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/
    Anonymous
    August 6, 2004 9:37:40 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    In article <Xns953CE998C203DRaghar@195.250.128.45>,
    Raghar <notfor@mail.com> wrote:
    >Sword of slicing was better. Or rather equal (if it would be simillary
    >enchanted).

    I doubt it.

    Long sword of slicing: speed 14, damage 10, + up to 50% bonus damage
    Great mace of holy wrath: speed 18, damage 18, + up to 150% bonus
    damage.

    At best, with no other bonuses, the long sword does a max of 15 damage
    per 14 time ticks. The mace does a max of 45 damage per 18 time ticks.
    The difference will be even larger once skill, enchantments etc are
    factored in, due to the higher brand bonus of the mace. I know which one
    I'd choose, provided that your skill is high enough to get over the 'to
    hit' penalty :) . A double or triple sword of holy wrath is about the
    only thing that's better than the mace, and they're going to be much
    harder to find.

    --
    Mark Mackey
    The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
    Hints, tips and spoilers
    http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/
    Anonymous
    August 7, 2004 2:05:00 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> barked:
    > Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@kruemel.org> wrote:
    >> Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> croaked:

    >>> For damage-multiplier weapons like these, especially against
    >>> enemies with high AC, slow-but-damaging weapons are a big win
    >>> over fast-but-light weapons.
    >>
    >> What good are shields then, if the best option is a two-handed
    >> weapon?

    > I'm not saying that you _have_ to use a two-handed weapon here.

    Didn't think you were. It was just a question that came to mind.

    > The point is more that damage-multiplier brands work better on
    > high-damage weapons. At the extremes, a great mace of
    > electrocution and a knife of slicing are equally useless :) .

    Well, I bet a number of chefs would like a knife of slicing. :) 

    For some reason, 'great mace of electrocution' has my mind wander to
    trams... Every time. Would have to be a pretty big giant who swings
    them around, though, and then they'd lose their connection to the
    power lines...

    > If you want to use a shield, then there are quite a few high
    > -damage one-handed maces around...

    Which one is the best? (Spiked flail? Or is there something better?)

    >>> A well-enchanted great mace of holy wrath is about as good as
    >>> it gets for demon-thwapping.
    >>
    >> How does it compare to a <race-fitting> great mace of crushing?
    >> That does double damage, too, no?

    > No. Crushing (and other 'vorpal' enchantments) do up to 50% more
    > damage.

    Wonder where I got the idea, now. :)  (Wishful thinking?)

    > The damage bonus for the holy wrath mace against demons is 3 times
    > greater than the crushing mace.

    Is it worth dragging around just incase you meet a demon, though? Is
    it good enough as the main weapon (fighting normal critters) without
    going anywhere fancy, to have something especially good against the
    mere possibility of demons? (Carrying two great maces is a little
    heavy...)

    Since a few guys have gone through the Crypt without friends, I
    wonder how well my HOPr would do there (if he survives; he's not
    even seen the Vaults yet), maybe with that great mace of Holy Wrath.
    Bad idea?

    >>> For fighter-types, I prefer offence over defence once your AC
    >>> is sufficiently high.
    >>
    >> My EV is still only about half my AC (though that's 21/10 at the
    >> moment, it was more like 14/8 without that mace at that point).

    > 14/8 is perfectly acceptable in the mid-game,

    It wasn't! They chased me out of the Swamp more often than a hydra
    regrows heads! <g>

    > and the difference between 14 and 19 (from the protection weapon)
    > is starting to become insignificant.

    I don't know. I think AC and/or EV should grow along with the game.
    What's good enough in the early game won't be good enough later...

    --
    Tina the Vandal - a Believer of the Ruthless Noiseless Gorge
    Anonymous
    August 7, 2004 11:11:27 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    "Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au> wrote in news:41132c5c@dnews.tpgi.com.au:

    >
    > "R. Dan Henry" <danhenry@inreach.com> wrote in message
    > news:o r76h05rf5tro90on27ao7758290o2kfp1@4ax.com...
    >> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 13:31:11 +1000, "Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au>
    >> wrote:
    >> > Just in case you're not joking, that's an emoticon.
    >>
    >> He's lost an eye?
    >
    > I believe that's meant to be a wink...
    > ...although with Raghar, you can never be sure ;) .
    >
    What? When? How? O_O


    --
    Kizutsuite 'ta ano hi kara
    Anonymous
    August 8, 2004 12:16:49 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in news:4ig*
    1Zorq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk:

    > In article <Xns953CE998C203DRaghar@195.250.128.45>,
    > Raghar <notfor@mail.com> wrote:
    >>Sword of slicing was better. Or rather equal (if it would be simillary
    >>enchanted).
    >
    > I doubt it.
    >
    > Long sword of slicing: speed 14, damage 10, + up to 50% bonus damage
    > Great mace of holy wrath: speed 18, damage 18, + up to 150% bonus
    > damage.
    >
    > At best, with no other bonuses, the long sword does a max of 15 damage
    > per 14 time ticks. The mace does a max of 45 damage per 18 time ticks.
    > The difference will be even larger once skill, enchantments etc are
    > factored in, due to the higher brand bonus of the mace. I know which one
    > I'd choose, provided that your skill is high enough to get over the 'to
    > hit' penalty :) . A double or triple sword of holy wrath is about the
    > only thing that's better than the mace, and they're going to be much
    > harder to find.
    >

    So it's actually one hit per two turns. The longsword damage would be
    something like a 10+ 1+5 /14 = 80/7 per turn = 11 hp/turn
    The mace would be 18 + 1 + 13.5 /18 = 160/9 per turn = 17 hp/turn

    Now asume that you'd have some bonuses for speed. 4 for each weapon.
    long sword 160/10 = 16 hp/turn
    great mace 320/14 = 23 hp/turn

    with higher strength
    22 + 10 = 320/10 32 hp/turn
    30 + 22 = 520/14 37 hp/turn

    Are great maces twohanded? If they are, you can't apply that nice punch. So I
    would consider a great mace only if I'd have a gold dragon armor, or if
    enchantment of that mace would surpass enchantment on the sword by more than
    3.

    How are calculated weapons speed penalties for casting?

    --
    Kizutsuite 'ta ano hi kara
    Anonymous
    August 8, 2004 12:31:18 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote in news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=
    40fidonet_272b4267@fidonet.org:

    > Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> bellowed:
    >> Tina_Hall@kruemel.org (Tina Hall) wrote:
    >>> Glen Wheeler <gew75@uow.edu.au> screeched:
    >
    >>>> Just in case you're not joking, that's an emoticon. Think
    >>>> vertical.
    >>>
    >>> Eh? Whatever this is supposed to be, it is not the common
    >>> language, which is smileys. Just like English is the common
    >>> language, and Polish would be only understandable to some.
    >
    >> In some online communities, sideways smileys are rare and the ^_^
    >> format of emoticons is the norm. (I believe ^_^ and its ilk are
    >> particularly popular among anime fans.)
    >
    > See? It's some foreign language that might be fine on its native
    > ground but is useless here. We talk English here for a reason,
    > instead of demanding that everyone else learns the others' native
    > languages.
    >
    It's an evolution.
    ;-*) -> ;)  -> ~_^
    You know in some communities people, and other stuf, are tired of necessity
    to have theirs head in 90 degree angle, so they decided to use this and cure
    theirs hurting necks. ^_^



    --
    Kizutsuite 'ta ano hi kara
    Anonymous
    August 10, 2004 3:22:07 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    In article <Xns953EE2A251FCARaghar@195.250.128.45>,
    Raghar <notfor@mail.com> wrote:
    <snip most of the analysis>

    >Now asume that you'd have some bonuses for speed. 4 for each weapon.

    OK

    >with higher strength
    >22 + 10 = 320/10 32 hp/turn
    >30 + 22 = 520/14 37 hp/turn

    ....not sure where these numbers came from? Str makes very little
    difference to damage in armed combat: multiply base damage by
    (1+random(STR-11)/39), _before_ randomisation or plusses or anything
    else. A STR of 50 converts a long sword from a damage 10 weapon to a
    damage (10-20, avg 15) weapon, and hence is roughly equivalent to +2 or
    +3 damage enchantment. This is arguably broken.

    By my analysis, with STR 30, weapon skill 22, fighting 16, enchanted to
    +8, against an opponent with AC 12, (all of which are reasonable for a
    character in the late game, with the possible exception of STR 30...),
    the long sword of slicing has

    speed 7 (the minimum possible for a long sword)
    base damage 13ish (from STR), so
    average damage 1d13 * (1+11/25) (avg skill) * (1+8/30) (avg fighting)
    + 1d8 (weapon plus) - 1d12 (monster AC)
    bonus damage + up to 50% main damage
    => on average, each hit does 11ish damage + 3-4ish bonus damage.

    The grat mace of holy wrath at +8 against the same opponent does

    speed 7 (the minimum possible for a 2-handed weapon)
    base damage 21ish (from STR), so
    average damage 1d21 * (1+11/25) (avg skill) * (1+8/30) (fighting)
    + 1d8 (weapon plus) - 1d12 (monster AC)
    bonus damage + up to 150% main damage if opponent is a demon, or
    up to 100% of opponent is undead
    => on average, each hit does 18ish damage, +9 (undead) or +13 (demon)

    The mace is better than the sword even against normal critters. Of
    course, you have to add in unarmed attacks, relative 'to hit' value,
    shield AC etc against this, but if you're up against three Executioners
    I'd rather be doing 30-odd damage per 7 ticks than 15.

    One thing to add to this analysis is that any significant amount of
    monster AC adds greatly to the superiority of heavier thwaps less often.
    You can whittle an ogre to shreds in seconds with a quick blade of
    slicing (well, you could if weapon speeds weren't capped), but you'll
    never even scratch a skeletal dragon with it.

    >Are great maces twohanded?

    They are: note that means that you can get their speed down to 7 with a
    high weapon skill, which is the same as a long sword with max skill.
    That's an even further argument in favour of the mace.

    >How are calculated weapons speed penalties for casting?

    By the time you are waving around a great mace of holy wrath, minor
    spellcasting penalties are irrelevant :) .

    --
    Mark Mackey
    The Association for the Advancement of Dungeon Crawling
    Hints, tips and spoilers
    http://www.swallowtail.org/crawl/
    Anonymous
    August 11, 2004 12:25:12 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Mark Mackey <markm@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message news:<NDe*d5Frq@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>...

    > >Are great maces twohanded?
    >
    > They are: note that means that you can get their speed down to 7 with a
    > high weapon skill, which is the same as a long sword with max skill.
    > That's an even further argument in favour of the mace.

    How does one get to be able to wield a great mace, aside from being an ogre?
    I've had ghouls w/ strength 25 unable to do so (25 is pretty high, in my book).
    Anonymous
    August 11, 2004 9:41:20 PM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Jason Northrup wrote:


    > How does one get to be able to wield a great mace, aside from being an ogre?
    > I've had ghouls w/ strength 25 unable to do so (25 is pretty high, in my book).

    Are you sure you don't mean a giant (spiked) club? Those (in fact
    everything above 50 aum) can only be wielded by ogres and trolls. The
    only restriction in wielding great maces is that you must not be a
    kobold, halfling, spriggan or gnome.

    Lars
    Anonymous
    August 12, 2004 11:55:49 AM

    Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

    Lars Kecke <kecke@physik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote in message news:<411A3E20.7020904@physik.uni-freiburg.de>...

    > you don't mean a giant (spiked) club? Those (in fact
    > everything above 50 aum) can only be wielded by ogres and trolls.

    You're right; those are what I meant.
    !