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[Crawl] AC versus EV

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Anonymous
August 6, 2004 6:03:38 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Currently I could choose between AC: 12 EV: 12 and AC: 18 EV:6 or I
could wear what I guess is a randart armor (it's called "Webukuxkufu")
which would get me to AC: 17 EV: 7
I wonder whether there is a rule of thumb here...
I also could imagine that there's no general rule at all but rather
depends on class/race combo. My current char is a Dwarf Healer with a
large shield and a long sword of slicing, +0,+3 ring of slaying and +4
ring of protection. Any recommendation?

Rubinstein

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Anonymous
August 6, 2004 6:03:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:03:38 +0200, Rubinstein
<picommander@t-online.de> wrote:

>Currently I could choose between AC: 12 EV: 12 and AC: 18 EV:6 or I
>could wear what I guess is a randart armor (it's called "Webukuxkufu")
>which would get me to AC: 17 EV: 7
>I wonder whether there is a rule of thumb here...
>I also could imagine that there's no general rule at all but rather
>depends on class/race combo. My current char is a Dwarf Healer with a
>large shield and a long sword of slicing, +0,+3 ring of slaying and +4
>ring of protection. Any recommendation?

With a Dwarf Healer who had found a really nice sword? I'd go with AC,
use my Dwarven skill with armor and go the heavy armor and melee
route, with crossbow, wands, and rods for assistance as they see fit
to show up. Healers aren't really fighters or mages by nature, so the
luck of early equipment finds and your race should guide your choices.
Dwarves make good heavy fighters (who will then have plenty of chances
to heal themselves -- and keeping just the few best weapons still
leaves plenty to sacrifice).

Richard Daniel Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
August 6, 2004 10:01:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> buzzed:

I'm not too clueful on AC/EV, so this is just some thoughts that
might help make your own choice. Take it with a measure of doubt and
think whether it'd make sense in general or just in your situation,
ok? (Incase you don't get any more helpful replies...)

> Currently I could choose between AC: 12 EV: 12 and AC: 18 EV:6 or
> I could wear what I guess is a randart armor (it's called
> "Webukuxkufu") which would get me to AC: 17 EV: 7
> I wonder whether there is a rule of thumb here...

No other special properties that makes one over the other
preferable? Is any armour more cumbersome than another and might
prevent you from hitting stuff reliably? Does one of them weigh less
so you can carry more?

Otherwise, I'd wonder how much damage the meanies do wherever you
are at the moment. Is it much or ranged attacks and you would rather
try to evade it (more EV), or is it little and you don't mind them
hitting you but like to cut down on the damage, or do they have many
attacks and you'd just prefer to block some of the damage because
they get some hits past the EV anyway (more AC)?

I only found this to be a viable thought this current game, when
hydras were chasing me through the Swamp repeatedly, and I swapped
my (lighter but also some foo mail) armour for an orcish plate mail,
which made my EV rather bad (and was rather heavy) but served me
better against them, I think. (I went back to the Temple several
times to switch weapons to try for the best approach with those,
too, and ended up with a great orcish mace.)

> I also could imagine that there's no general rule at all but
> rather depends on class/race combo. My current char is a Dwarf
> Healer with a large shield and a long sword of slicing, +0,+3
> ring of slaying and +4 ring of protection. Any recommendation?

If I don't confuse what's what again with the plusses on the ring of
slaying, the +3 should help with accuracy, no? (Hmmm... It's
probably the other way round, again, so it helps with damage.)

About your sword...

Staves aren't too great on the fighting front, anyway. Have you
'v'iewed the sword and the quarterstaff you were wielding and
compared the damage they do? (Dam/Hit is +7/+6 versus +10/+3 going
by the descriptions in my old dumps, and that's without whatever the
'extra damage' from the slicing actually means.) Magical staves are
rather bad for fighting, too, basically just good to support magic
abilities, but not to whack things with.

If you like the way your sword works, you could hope for finding an
even bigger one later (great swords are neat but two-handed, and
there are also triple bladed swords, which I only find when I have
no use for them <g>), and then vorpalize it to slicing.

Slicing is a brand just like crushing and piercing and chopping; one
of the four that you can apply with just a scroll of vorpalize
weapon to your melee weapon. (Stuff like Flaming and Freezing needs
some spell as well as the scroll, as far as I've been told.) You
won't be able to chose the brand, it'll match the weapon, so an axe
will be 'of chopping', a mace 'of crushing', a spiked flail 'of
piercing'...

Beware of hydras with anything that can cut heads off, though... (I
wonder why all those heads don't get into each other's way. ;)  )

--
Tina the Boxer - a High Priest of the Ranting Needy Guide
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Anonymous
August 6, 2004 7:00:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Tina Hall wrote:
> Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> buzzed:
>
>> Currently I could choose between AC: 12 EV: 12 and AC: 18 EV:6 or I
>> could wear what I guess is a randart armor (it's called
>> "Webukuxkufu") which would get me to AC: 17 EV: 7 I wonder whether
>> there is a rule of thumb here...
>
> No other special properties that makes one over the other
> preferable? Is any armour more cumbersome than another and might
> prevent you from hitting stuff reliably? Does one of them weigh less
> so you can carry more?

AC is directly bound to weight here: the most heavy variant is a +2
dwarven banded mail, 50 aum. Next to this the +3 chain mail
"Webukuxkufu" with 45 aum. The light weight is +2 orcish leather armour.
What I yet don't know: does the 'dwarven' mail has any particular
advantage for a dwarven PC? Or does "Webukuxkufu", which sounds like a
randart, have any advantage over 'ordinary' armour (In other games I
would start thinking about 'undestructable' or 'corrosion resistant',
but Crawl maybe completely different here)? From the ingame description
it doesn't have any specialties.

> Otherwise, I'd wonder how much damage the meanies do wherever you
> are at the moment. Is it much or ranged attacks and you would rather
> try to evade it (more EV), or is it little and you don't mind them
> hitting you but like to cut down on the damage, or do they have many
> attacks and you'd just prefer to block some of the damage because
> they get some hits past the EV anyway (more AC)?

I can't get subtle here cause this is "newbie stepping into unknown
territory". Dlvl 9 might be pretty shallow in your eyes, but for me it's
the first time and I don't expect more than another silly death quite
soon...
For a first test I grap my sword of slicing (which is a nobrainer
meanwhile, it's just too good), Webukuxkufu (a weight compromise), a
large shield (I'm curious about the attack penalty) and my dwarven
crossbow (only 11 bolts for now, unless I can't find more I'll mostly
use an orcish blowgun with 57 poisoned needles).

Rubinstein
Anonymous
August 6, 2004 7:18:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R Dan Henry wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Aug 2004 02:03:38 +0200, Rubinstein
><picommander@t-online.de> wrote:
>
>> Currently I could choose between AC: 12 EV: 12 and AC: 18 EV:6 or I
>> could wear what I guess is a randart armor (it's called
>> "Webukuxkufu") which would get me to AC: 17 EV: 7
>> [...]
>
> With a Dwarf Healer who had found a really nice sword? I'd go with AC,
> use my Dwarven skill with armor and go the heavy armor and melee
> route, with crossbow, wands, and rods for assistance as they see fit
> to show up.
> [...]

Thanks, that's mainly what I was guessing already. The rods still have
to be found, though. My best offensive wand is a wand of lightning. I
also have several wands of random effects and enslavement + 3 scrolls of
recharging. This particular game also is somewhat 'newbie-friendly':
I've found 3 food shops already, thus starvation shouldn't be a problem
and I don't have to hurry.

Thanks,
Rubinstein
Anonymous
August 6, 2004 7:54:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Rubinstein wrote:
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> buzzed:
>>
>> Otherwise, I'd wonder how much damage the meanies do wherever you
>> are at the moment.
>> [...]
>
> I can't get subtle here cause this is "newbie stepping into unknown
> territory". Dlvl 9 might be pretty shallow in your eyes, but for me
> it's the first time and I don't expect more than another silly death
> quite soon...

Oh well, at least I'm quite good in what I have to expect: slain by
Erolcha on dlvl 9. She got me down from 82 HP to 9 HP with one single
lightning bolt. I managed to poison her and then I survived further 4
rounds (with praying and healing, unfortunately I had no potions of heal
wounds), but I couldn't see any way to escape. She's just too fast,
running was no option. I probably could have escaped if I *immediately*
had read a scroll of teleport on first contact (instead of using my
blowgun), but that's just theoretical: playing thus cowardly leads to
nowhere (this way I never would learn to estimate the danger of certain
monsters).

Anyway, thanks everyone for help and suggestions! :-)
Rubinstein
Anonymous
August 6, 2004 9:42:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> bellowed:
> Tina Hall wrote:
>> Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> buzzed:

>>> Currently I could choose between AC: 12 EV: 12 and AC: 18 EV:6
>>> or I could wear what I guess is a randart armor (it's called
>>> "Webukuxkufu") which would get me to AC: 17 EV: 7 I wonder
>>> whether there is a rule of thumb here...
>>
>> No other special properties that makes one over the other
>> preferable? Is any armour more cumbersome than another and might
>> prevent you from hitting stuff reliably? Does one of them weigh
>> less so you can carry more?

> AC is directly bound to weight here:

Yes, that's normal, but one or the other might not be an issue for
your character.

> +2 dwarven banded mail, 50 aum. Next to this the +3 chain mail
> "Webukuxkufu" with 45 aum. The light weight is +2 orcish leather
> armour.

I had assumed that they were all proper armour (leather armour is
light armour that'll train Dodging), so if you want to focus on
Armour instead of Dodging and Stealth, that kicks out one of the
three. (Dwarves are better with Armour than the other two, though
they're not outrageously bad with Dodging.)

> What I yet don't know: does the 'dwarven' mail has any
> particular advantage for a dwarven PC?

Why not compare (wearing) two of the same mails (like two banded
mails), one dwarven, one not dwarven? I think I've seen a better AC
with orcish stuff for my orc.

> Or does "Webukuxkufu", which sounds like a randart, have any
> advantage over 'ordinary' armour (In other games I would start
> thinking about 'undestructable' or 'corrosion resistant', but
> Crawl maybe completely different here)? From the ingame
> description it doesn't have any specialties.

Artifacts (any, random ones and the just as randomly appearing fixed
ones) are indeed corrosion resistant (I haven't seen anything in
Crawl that can destroy worn armour. No idea whether jellies for
example could eat artifacts that are lying around on the ground...).
The drawback is that they are also enchantment resistant. The +/-
stay as they are.

>> Otherwise, I'd wonder how much damage the meanies do wherever
>> you are at the moment. Is it much or ranged attacks and you
>> would rather try to evade it (more EV), or is it little and you
>> don't mind them hitting you but like to cut down on the damage,
>> or do they have many attacks and you'd just prefer to block some
>> of the damage because they get some hits past the EV anyway
>> (more AC)?

> I can't get subtle here cause this is "newbie stepping into
> unknown territory". Dlvl 9 might be pretty shallow in your eyes,
> but for me it's the first time and I don't expect more than
> another silly death quite soon...

Oh, don't be so pessimistic. :)  Dlvl: 9. Hmmm... First that comes to
mind are Ogres, (various) orcs and centaurs, but you've probably
already met them before. <checking dumps for monsters killed on D:9>

What might be new is wyverns, big kobolds, manticores, giant
beetles, giant frogs, hippogriffs, yaks, slime creatures, giant
brown frogs, and maybe a troll, who all do good damage but are
usually ok if you are careful and can fight them one on one. Just
don't underestimate them; spellcasters for example should stay their
distance to these. Also, some might have some (not too bad and
pretty obvious) trick up their sleeves (how spoiled do you want to
be?) and some of them come in hordes. Be careful, and pay attention
to what they do (and be prepared to flee when you don't like what
they do), and you should get used to them quite nicely.

A cyclopes (even bigger meany) would be a little OOD but not
impossible.

Rarer are scorpions and giant centipedes (I think both can poison
you, but not sure on the latter). More killer bees are to be
expected, of course. :) 

What you might also find is shadows, necrophages and hungry ghosts.
I don't quite know what shadows do, the other two have special
attacks.

Yellow wasps (not too common but possible) are dangerous because
they can paralyze you (you need poison resistance to prevent that).

Last but not least, unseen horrors are at home at around that level,
as is Erolcha.

> For a first test I grap my sword of slicing (which is a nobrainer
> meanwhile, it's just too good), Webukuxkufu (a weight
> compromise), a large shield (I'm curious about the attack
> penalty)

A shield is useful against missile attacks, the larger the better.

> and my dwarven crossbow (only 11 bolts for now, unless I
> can't find more I'll mostly use an orcish blowgun with 57
> poisoned needles).

I had around 1500 bolts lying around the dungeon when my TrBe left.
Are you disarming traps to get the bolts out of them? (Training
Traps&Doors up to 8 or so will help prevent you stepping onto Zot
traps later, because it often warns you of the trap when you want to
make the move...)

--
Tina the Swordfighter - a Believer of the Resourceful Naive Glimmer
Anonymous
August 6, 2004 9:45:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> growled:
> Rubinstein wrote:

>> I can't get subtle here cause this is "newbie stepping into
>> unknown territory". Dlvl 9 might be pretty shallow in your eyes,
>> but for me it's the first time and I don't expect more than
>> another silly death quite soon...

> Oh well, at least I'm quite good in what I have to expect: slain
> by Erolcha on dlvl 9.

Sorry. Well, I hope the previous message will still help somewhat
the next time.

> [...] I probably could have escaped if I *immediately* had read a
> scroll of teleport on first contact (instead of using my blowgun),
> but that's just theoretical: playing thus cowardly leads to
> nowhere (this way I never would learn to estimate the danger of
> certain monsters).

:)  Yep. But next time you know better.

--
Tina the Englaciator - a Follower of the Reflective Number Glitter
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