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[Crawl] YACD -- newbie advice sought...

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Anonymous
August 10, 2004 9:12:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Hi all.

This is easily my best Crawl character ever. I've never even been past
Dlvl 6 until now, and have been reading the source trying to fake
experience. Anywho, I'd really just like some advice on what to do next. I
found the Lair pretty easy because of all the yummy food waiting to be
sliced up. Okawaru is also an incredibly good God, especially with the
haste ability. Although I would like to know the keyboard command for
sacrificing weapons and armour...I remember doing it before, but have now
forgotten how.

The reason for the duplication in jewellery: I'm just about to go down
some stairs and dump everything I don't think I'll need. The ring of
teleportation has been especially great, so I'll not be dropping it off.

I've been a little miffed about the abundance of awesome artifact weapons.
One spear which I stashed a few levels ago gave me +2 strength, +2 dex +2
damage protection from cold and was branded with holy wrath. Ahh well.
Unarmed combat seems to be doing nicely...

That's a good question. Can unarmed combat bring you through to the late
game?

Thanks all.

Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26 character file.

Prola the Black Belt (Minotaur)
(Level 12 Monk)

Play time: 03:49:12 Number of turns: 19001

Experience : 12/30924
Strength 19 Dexterity 21 Intelligence 9
Hit Points : 99 Magic Points : 7
AC : 11 Evasion : 14 Shield : 0
GP : 1402

You are in the Lair.
You worship Okawaru.
Okawaru is extremely pleased with you.
You are hungry.

Inventory:
Hand weapons
a - a +0 elven short sword
b - a +3,+2 blowgun
Missiles
c - 34 darts
d - 28 poisoned needles
e - 5 dwarven darts
g - 16 elven darts
s - 29 needles
v - 53 poisoned needles
y - 20 dwarven darts
A - 13 poisoned needles
B - 34 needles
G - 12 poisoned elven needles
I - 17 darts
Q - 10 darts
X - 26 darts
Armour
H - a +1 orcish cloak (worn)
N - a +1 pair of gloves of dexterity (worn)
A pair of gloves.
Armour rating: 1
Evasion modifier: +0
It increases the dexterity of its wearer (+3 to dexterity).
It weighs around 2.0 aum.
Z - a +2 robe of magic resistance (worn)
A cloth robe.
Armour rating: 1
Evasion modifier: +0
It increases its wearer's resistance to enchantments.
It weighs around 6.0 aum.
Magical devices
p - a wand of cold
u - a wand of flame
D - a wand of disintegration
O - a wand of paralysis
P - a wand of cold
Comestibles
j - 3 strawberries
q - 4 bread rations
S - 18 honeycombs
T - a royal jelly
U - a meat ration
Scrolls
h - 3 scrolls of remove curse
x - 2 scrolls of enchant weapon II
K - a scroll of blinking
M - 4 scrolls of teleportation
Jewellery
f - the ring "Biqczaa" (left hand)
This wonderful ring greatly increases the recuperative powers of its
wearer, but also considerably speeds his or her metabolism.
It affects your AC (+4).
It affects your strength (+2).
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+2).
It enhances your eyesight.
It weighs around 1.0 aum.
i - an amulet of warding
This amulet repels some of the attacks of creatures which have been
magically summoned.
It weighs around 1.0 aum.
k - a +3 ring of dexterity (right hand)
This ring increases or decreases the dexterity of its wearer, depending
on
the degree to which it has been enchanted.
It affects your dexterity (+3).
It weighs around 1.0 aum.
l - a ring of dexterity
This ring increases or decreases the dexterity of its wearer, depending
on
the degree to which it has been enchanted.
It weighs around 1.0 aum.
m - an amulet of inaccuracy
This amulet makes its wearer less accurate in hand combat.
It weighs around 1.0 aum.
n - an amulet of clarity
This amulet protects its wearer from some forms of mental confusion.
It weighs around 1.0 aum.
r - an amulet of clarity
This amulet protects its wearer from some forms of mental confusion.
It weighs around 1.0 aum.
C - an amulet of rage (around neck)
This amulet enables its wearer to attempt to enter a state of berserk
rage,
and increases their chance of successfully doing so. It also partially
protects the user from passing out when coming out of that rage.
It weighs around 1.0 aum.
F - a ring of protection from magic
This ring increases its wearer's resistance to hostile enchantments.
It weighs around 1.0 aum.
R - a ring of protection from cold
This ring provides protection from cold.
It weighs around 1.0 aum.
W - a ring of teleportation
This ring occasionally exerts its power to randomly translocate its
wearer
to another place, and can be deliberately activated for the same effect.
It weighs around 1.0 aum.
Y - a large granite ring
Potions
o - 5 potions of might
t - a potion of speed
w - a potion of levitation
E - 2 potions of heal wounds
J - 11 potions of healing
L - 2 potions of restore abilities


You have 18 experience left.

Skills:
+ Level 8 Fighting
+ Level 1 Maces & Flails
+ Level 13 Darts
+ Level 6 Throwing
+ Level 1 Armour
+ Level 9 Dodging
+ Level 2 Stealth
+ Level 3 Traps & Doors
+ Level 13 Unarmed Combat
+ Level 1 Invocations
+ Level 1 Evocations


You have 11 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.


--
Glen
L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Anonymous
August 10, 2004 9:12:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au> wrote in message news:<4118754a@dnews.tpgi.com.au>...
> Hi all.

Hi Glen!

> This is easily my best Crawl character ever. I've never even been past
> Dlvl 6 until now, and have been reading the source trying to fake
> experience. Anywho, I'd really just like some advice on what to do next. I
> found the Lair pretty easy because of all the yummy food waiting to be
> sliced up. Okawaru is also an incredibly good God, especially with the
> Although I would like to know the keyboard command for
> sacrificing weapons and armour.

I'm still a newbie also, but I've been past Dlvl 6.
You sacrfice stuff by dropping it on an alter of Okawaru, then
praying.

In general, this is the order I do things:
- go down to dungeon level 9-10
- Lair, if I have poison resistance
- Orcish Mines, Snake Pit, Elvish Halls
(That's as far as I've made it...)

> Can unarmed combat bring you through to the late game?

Most definitely. You can do a LOT of damage with unarmed attacks. Your
skill level is added to your damage, and you will get multiple attacks
per round.
Remember to not wear heavy armor or wield a shield, though, as both
with seriously degrade your armed attack ability.

> Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26 character file.
>
> Prola the Black Belt (Minotaur)
> (Level 12 Monk)
>
> Inventory:
> Hand weapons
> a - a +0 elven short sword
> b - a +3,+2 blowgun
> Missiles
Wow! Dump a bunch of your darts/needles. Darts are next to useless
past Dlvl 5 and I've found that 20 needles is about all I've needed to
carry at once.

> Jewellery
> f - the ring "Biqczaa" (left hand)
Nice! I want one for my current character!!

> k - a +3 ring of dexterity (right hand)
I'd dump this one. It's good for a low level character, but now your
Dex is good enough, and +3 isn't going to provide a significant
improvement to AC, dodge or attack potential.

> m - an amulet of inaccuracy
why are you carrying this?

> F - a ring of protection from magic
> R - a ring of protection from cold
> W - a ring of teleportation
Any of these are a better choice than the +3 Dex ring.

> Skills:

Turn off: Darts, Throwing, Traps & Maces.
There is very little value in putting experience into these skills for
this character. I would have turned off Darts & Throwing at level 5
(at the latest).
It is up to you whether you want to turn off Stealth. Minotaurs gain
stealth very slowly - it is unlikely that the skill level will ever be
high enough for it to be usefull.

> + Level 8 Fighting
> + Level 1 Maces & Flails
> + Level 13 Darts
> + Level 6 Throwing
> + Level 1 Armour
> + Level 9 Dodging
> + Level 2 Stealth
> + Level 3 Traps & Doors
> + Level 13 Unarmed Combat
> + Level 1 Invocations
> + Level 1 Evocations
Anonymous
August 11, 2004 4:38:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:41:50 GMT, "Jeremey Wilson" wrote:

>> Experience : 12/30924
>> Strength 19 Dexterity 21 Intelligence 9
>> Hit Points : 99 Magic Points : 7
>> AC : 11 Evasion : 14 Shield : 0
>
>Minotaurs do well with armor, and I don't think too well with dodging. And
>your AC is really low. You might want to try on some not-too-heavy armor
>(a ring mail or scale mail, say) until you can find an (ice)dragon armor,
>and get your skill up a bit. It doesn't really affect unarmed combat
>_that_ much.

It only makes you 2,5 times slower if your skill otherwise gets you to
to 0,4 speed.
At the moment his attacks take 0,6, that'd make him 66% slower.

>> Comestibles
>> j - 3 strawberries
>
>Oh, just eat them! They're wasting a letter!

I hope you weren't serious. These are a godsend when you are
pillarhopping.
Related resources
Anonymous
August 11, 2004 7:07:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Lauri Vallo" <lava@kolumbus.fi> wrote in message
news:411968bf.32891193@News.Individual.NET...
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:41:50 GMT, "Jeremey Wilson" wrote:
>
> >> Experience : 12/30924
> >> Strength 19 Dexterity 21 Intelligence 9
> >> Hit Points : 99 Magic Points : 7
> >> AC : 11 Evasion : 14 Shield : 0
> >
> >Minotaurs do well with armor, and I don't think too well with dodging.
And
> >your AC is really low. You might want to try on some not-too-heavy
armor
> >(a ring mail or scale mail, say) until you can find an (ice)dragon
armor,
> >and get your skill up a bit. It doesn't really affect unarmed combat
> >_that_ much.
>
> It only makes you 2,5 times slower if your skill otherwise gets you to
> to 0,4 speed.
> At the moment his attacks take 0,6, that'd make him 66% slower.

Until he gets his armor skill up. Which won't take long, since he's a
minotaur. You'd wear a robe the entire game?

> >> Comestibles
> >> j - 3 strawberries
> >
> >Oh, just eat them! They're wasting a letter!
>
> I hope you weren't serious. These are a godsend when you are
> pillarhopping.

I don't think I've ever been starving and pillarhopping at the same time.
But if you're planning on it, definitely keep the strawberries.

--
Jeremey
Anonymous
August 12, 2004 12:01:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:07:29 GMT, "Jeremey Wilson" wrote:

>"Lauri Vallo" <lava@kolumbus.fi> wrote in message
>news:411968bf.32891193@News.Individual.NET...
>> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:41:50 GMT, "Jeremey Wilson" wrote:
>>
>> >> Experience : 12/30924
>> >> Strength 19 Dexterity 21 Intelligence 9
>> >> Hit Points : 99 Magic Points : 7
>> >> AC : 11 Evasion : 14 Shield : 0
>> >
>> >Minotaurs do well with armor, and I don't think too well with dodging.
>And
>> >your AC is really low. You might want to try on some not-too-heavy
>armor
>> >(a ring mail or scale mail, say) until you can find an (ice)dragon
>armor,
>> >and get your skill up a bit. It doesn't really affect unarmed combat
>> >_that_ much.
>>
>> It only makes you 2,5 times slower if your skill otherwise gets you to
>> to 0,4 speed.
>> At the moment his attacks take 0,6, that'd make him 66% slower.
>
>Until he gets his armor skill up. Which won't take long, since he's a
>minotaur. You'd wear a robe the entire game?

Since he started out that way, I wouldn't go changing. Armour skill
builds up slowly and the jumpy attack speeds never totally fade away.
I haven't a strong opinion which is better.
Anonymous
August 12, 2004 10:36:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

lava@kolumbus.fi (Lauri Vallo) wrote in message news:<411a677f.4978848@News.Individual.NET>...
> On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 15:07:29 GMT, "Jeremey Wilson" wrote:
>
> >"Lauri Vallo" <lava@kolumbus.fi> wrote in message
> >news:411968bf.32891193@News.Individual.NET...
> >> On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:41:50 GMT, "Jeremey Wilson" wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Experience : 12/30924
> >> >> Strength 19 Dexterity 21 Intelligence 9
> >> >> Hit Points : 99 Magic Points : 7
> >> >> AC : 11 Evasion : 14 Shield : 0
> >> >
> >> >Minotaurs do well with armor, and I don't think too well with dodging.

Actually, Minotaurs learn armor and dodge equally well. You may have
been thinking about Stealth, which they are not good at.

> >> >your AC is really low. You might want to try on some not-too-heavy
> armor until you can find an (ice)dragon armor,
> >> >and get your skill up a bit. It doesn't really affect unarmed combat
> >> >_that_ much.
> >>
> >> It only makes you 2,5 times slower if your skill otherwise gets you to
> >> to 0,4 speed.
> >> At the moment his attacks take 0,6, that'd make him 66% slower.
> >
> >Until he gets his armor skill up. Which won't take long, since he's a
> >minotaur. You'd wear a robe the entire game?

Heavy armor does affect unarmed combat _that_ much:
The probabilities get a bit tricky to explain, but if you have zero
armor skill, 50% of the time your attack speed is reduced to 1.0, no
matter what Unarmed Skill you have. Once you have Armor skill there
is a chance each turn that your armor still gets in the way. For
example, Scale Mail AC7 EV-2 will cause a (worst case) drop in attack
speed 1/3 of the time until his armor skill is >2. At a skill of 3 it
gets in the way 1/3*66% = 22% of the time. At skill 15 it still gets
in the way 1/3*20% = 7% of the time! (the average case would be 50%,
33% and 10%)
(I may have misinterpreted this calculation, because it appears that
if you wear Platemail with an EV-5, the results would be:
Armor Skill < 6 = 1/6 = 16% of the time (on average, 25%)
Armor Skill = 15 = 1/6*66% = 11% of the time (on average, 16%)

Anyway...

Going with Evasion instead of AC is a viable strategy. With a good
EV you can dodge 2/3 of attacks, and with a robe and +2 armor all
around, a Minotaur can have AC12. With any of the better Light Armor
this can go up to approx AC20.

-Dalton
Anonymous
August 12, 2004 7:34:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Dalton Wudrich" <dalton_wudrich@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:73c2de9e.0408120536.1732e852@posting.google.com...
> lava@kolumbus.fi (Lauri Vallo) wrote in message
news:<411a677f.4978848@News.Individual.NET>...
> Actually, Minotaurs learn armor and dodge equally well. You may have
> been thinking about Stealth, which they are not good at.

My mistake. I should have checked.

> Heavy armor does affect unarmed combat _that_ much:
> The probabilities get a bit tricky to explain, but if you have zero
> armor skill, 50% of the time your attack speed is reduced to 1.0, no
> matter what Unarmed Skill you have. Once you have Armor skill there
> is a chance each turn that your armor still gets in the way. For
> example, Scale Mail AC7 EV-2 will cause a (worst case) drop in attack
> speed 1/3 of the time until his armor skill is >2.
At a skill of 3 it
> gets in the way 1/3*66% = 22% of the time. At skill 15 it still gets
> in the way 1/3*20% = 7% of the time! (the average case would be 50%,
> 33% and 10%)

I"m pretty sure most of that is wrong in detail, but the principle's right.
Having the armor get in the way of an attack 7% of the time (!) doesn't
seem like a big deal to me. I'm sure Lauri or yourself is soon going to
explain why it is, though.

> Going with Evasion instead of AC is a viable strategy.

I disagree.

With a good
> EV you can dodge 2/3 of attacks,

Yeah, if the 2/3 of attacks you're dodging are goblins and your EV is 40,
which his almost assuredly won't be.

and with a robe and +2 armor all
> around, a Minotaur can have AC12. With any of the better Light Armor
> this can go up to approx AC20.

Your unarmed combat is affected by your armor's evasion penalty, not its
weight. The only body armors that don't affect unarmed combat are robes,
animal skins, and steam dragon armors.

The benefits of heavy armor far outweigh the loss, at unarmed 18 and armor
10, of one attack every 50 ticks.

I'll stop posting about it, though, because the guy's probably either won
or died by now.

--
Jeremey
Anonymous
August 13, 2004 11:38:29 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Jeremey Wilson" <noaddressgiven@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<t6MSc.6638$Ow6.648699@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com>...
> "Dalton Wudrich" <dalton_wudrich@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:73c2de9e.0408120536.1732e852@posting.google.com...
> > lava@kolumbus.fi (Lauri Vallo) wrote in message
> news:<411a677f.4978848@News.Individual.NET>...
> DW> Heavy armor does affect unarmed combat _that_ much:
> > The probabilities get a bit tricky to explain, but if you have zero
> > armor skill, 50% of the time your attack speed is reduced to 1.0, no
> > matter what Unarmed Skill you have. Once you have Armor skill there
> > is a chance each turn that your armor still gets in the way. For
> > example, Scale Mail AC7 EV-2 will cause a (worst case) drop in attack
> > speed 1/3 of the time until his armor skill is >2.
> At a skill of 3 it
> > gets in the way 1/3*66% = 22% of the time. At skill 15 it still gets
> > in the way 1/3*20% = 7% of the time! (the average case would be 50%,
> > 33% and 10%)
>
> I"m pretty sure most of that is wrong in detail, but the principle's right.
> Having the armor get in the way of an attack 7% of the time (!) doesn't
> seem like a big deal to me. I'm sure Lauri or yourself is soon going to
> explain why it is, though.

I'm definitely not an expert, so let's see what the source has to say.
(What I wrote was my interpretation of info from Looney's web page.)

<Dalton starts reading fight.cc and stuff.cc>
<time passes>
<more time passes>
<Dalton looks up some functions on Google & runs some examples to
verify functionality>
<done!>

Unless someone that has run Crawl in wizard mode and verified this, or
understands the code in great detail corrects me, the description I
provided is correct.

Here's what I found.
>> is my comments. Everything else is code snippets.

// Unarmed speed
if (you.burden_state == BS_UNENCUMBERED
&& one_chance_in(heavy_armour + 1))
{
weapon_speed2 = 10 - you.skills[SK_UNARMED_COMBAT] / 3;
}
>> The speed improvement is only applied if heavy_armour doesn't get
in the way.
>> What is heavy_armour? See below.

// heavy armour modifiers for shield borne
if (bearing_shield)

>> Based on your Shield skill, there is a chance that heavy_armour is
increased by 1.

// heavy armour modifiers for PARM_EVASION
if (you.equip[EQ_BODY_ARMOUR] != -1)
if (ev_pen < 0 && random2(you.skills[SK_ARMOUR]) < abs( ev_pen
))
heavy_armour += random2( abs(ev_pen) );

>> Looking at the implementation of random2() it looks like it returns
a random number between 0 and (value-1). This means that armor with an
EV of -1 will not increase heavy_armour.
>> Summary (assuming truncation of the remainder of division of INTs)
>> Any armor with an EV penalty worse than 0 can increase heavy_armour
by up to 1 less than the EV penalty. (armor with EV-1 will not
increase heavy_armour)
>> Just read one_chance_in() and it confirms my understanding of
random2().

if (!ur_armed)
heavy_armour *= (coinflip() ? 3 : 2);

>> If unarmed, heavy_armour is multiplied by either 3 or 2.
>> Which makes the next evaluation bad for unarmed warriors with armor
with EV of -2 or worse.

// Extra unarmed attacks
if (you.burden_state == BS_UNENCUMBERED
&& random2(20) < you.skills[SK_UNARMED_COMBAT]
&& random2(1 + heavy_armour) < 2)
{
can_do_unarmed_combat = true;
}

>> This "&& random2(1 + heavy_armour) < 2)" means that if you have a
heavy_armour value > 2 or 3 it become increasingly unlikely you will
get extra unarmed attacks; and because heavy_armour was multiplied by
either 2 or 3 just before this evaluation, any armor with EV -2 or
worse will have a chance of preventing extra attacks.
Though the impact to attack speed gets better with higher EV
penalties. (which is screwy)

>>End code analysis>>

> > Going with Evasion instead of AC is a viable strategy.
>
> I disagree.
>
> With a good
> > EV you can dodge 2/3 of attacks,
>
> Yeah, if the 2/3 of attacks you're dodging are goblins and your EV is 40,
> which his almost assuredly won't be.

You are right, I should not have put the best case information in my
reply.
A reasonable expectation is to dodge 15% - 25% of attacks. (unless you
DO manage to get an EV > 30. :-)

> Your unarmed combat is affected by your armor's evasion penalty, not its
> weight. The only body armors that don't affect unarmed combat are robes,
> animal skins, and steam dragon armors.

Small miscommunication here. When I refered to Light Armor, I meant
armor with an EV of -1 or better. (The categories of Light and Heavy
armor are used in most webpages I've seen.) As we can see from the
analysis above, Light Armor can be worn and still fight at 100%
effectiveness with Unarmed Combat. (Though I'm not sure how Elven
armors would be treated...)

-Dalton
Anonymous
August 13, 2004 4:32:02 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Jeremey Wilson" <noaddressgiven@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:t6MSc.6638$Ow6.648699@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Dalton Wudrich" <dalton_wudrich@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:73c2de9e.0408120536.1732e852@posting.google.com...
> > lava@kolumbus.fi (Lauri Vallo) wrote in message
> news:<411a677f.4978848@News.Individual.NET>...
> > Actually, Minotaurs learn armor and dodge equally well. You may have
> > been thinking about Stealth, which they are not good at.
>
> My mistake. I should have checked.
>

Hmm. Well, I think I'll disable stealth then...

> > Heavy armor does affect unarmed combat _that_ much:
> > The probabilities get a bit tricky to explain, but if you have zero
> > armor skill, 50% of the time your attack speed is reduced to 1.0, no
> > matter what Unarmed Skill you have. Once you have Armor skill there
> > is a chance each turn that your armor still gets in the way. For
> > example, Scale Mail AC7 EV-2 will cause a (worst case) drop in attack
> > speed 1/3 of the time until his armor skill is >2.
> At a skill of 3 it
> > gets in the way 1/3*66% = 22% of the time. At skill 15 it still gets
> > in the way 1/3*20% = 7% of the time! (the average case would be 50%,
> > 33% and 10%)
>
> I"m pretty sure most of that is wrong in detail, but the principle's
right.
> Having the armor get in the way of an attack 7% of the time (!) doesn't
> seem like a big deal to me. I'm sure Lauri or yourself is soon going to
> explain why it is, though.
>

7% is worth me ditching the light stuff, but I've trained dodging quite a
bit already...

> > Going with Evasion instead of AC is a viable strategy.
>
> I disagree.
>

Has anyone won with Evasion over AC?

> With a good
> > EV you can dodge 2/3 of attacks,
>
> Yeah, if the 2/3 of attacks you're dodging are goblins and your EV is 40,
> which his almost assuredly won't be.
>

I don't understand this argument. Who has an EV of 40? Is that what you
need to dodge 2/3 of attacks? Alot of critters are missing me already.

> and with a robe and +2 armor all
> > around, a Minotaur can have AC12. With any of the better Light Armor
> > this can go up to approx AC20.
>
> Your unarmed combat is affected by your armor's evasion penalty, not its
> weight. The only body armors that don't affect unarmed combat are robes,
> animal skins, and steam dragon armors.
>

So leather armour affects HTH...hrm. Maybe I should train up armour. I
haven't found any decent animal skins.

> The benefits of heavy armor far outweigh the loss, at unarmed 18 and armor
> 10, of one attack every 50 ticks.
>

I am at a loss. What is the penalty like for scale mail, or medium armour
of some denotation?

> I'll stop posting about it, though, because the guy's probably either won
> or died by now.
>

Actually, I am observing this discussion with great interest. I don't
really know what to do now, so am leaving the character in stasis until this
comes to a head.

Thanks to all who have helped me!

--
Glen
L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Anonymous
August 13, 2004 7:52:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Glen Wheeler" <gew75@uow.edu.au> wrote in message
news:411c281e$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> 7% is worth me ditching the light stuff, but I've trained dodging quite
a
> bit already...

I think if you switched to armor with an evasion penalty of 2, you'd be
forgoing one point of your dodging evasion. I think. I don't have a way
to check right now, and I confuse myself very easily.

> > > Going with Evasion instead of AC is a viable strategy.
> >
> > I disagree.
> >
>
> Has anyone won with Evasion over AC?

Oh, certainly; I have, in fact (but not with a fighter). I was being
hyperbolic. It's much tougher for a fighter to win with evasion than with
armor, IMO. With a dragon armor and Armor Skill 17, you're guaranteed to
block 50% of all damage.

Loonie has the relevant spoiler, if you don't want to hunt through the
source: http://www.crawl.iconrate.net/defense.php

Most tough monsters have hit dice in the 15-20 range; if you get your
evasion plus 1/3 dexterity up to 35 (which seems like the far end of
reasonable once you've maxed out your dodging skill, unless you find really
nice artifacts) you'll dodge about half of those attacks.

I'd rather get hit 6 times in a row for ten damage each time, than go
miss-miss-miss-60 damage-miss-miss, myself, because there's always that 1/8
chance that a stone giant is going to hit you three times in a row.

> I don't understand this argument. Who has an EV of 40? Is that what
you
> need to dodge 2/3 of attacks? Alot of critters are missing me already.

40 EV is the max, and I think it's what Dalton was using to figure 2/3 of
attacks would miss.

> So leather armour affects HTH...hrm. Maybe I should train up armour.
I
> haven't found any decent animal skins.

Don't trust me, apparently. Dalton says one thing, Loonie says another. I
can't handle that sort of source diving.

> > The benefits of heavy armor far outweigh the loss, at unarmed 18 and
armor
> > 10, of one attack every 50 ticks.
>
> I am at a loss. What is the penalty like for scale mail, or medium
armour
> of some denotation?

It looks to me like once you've gotten your unarmed to 18, a scale mail
should at armor skill 10 slow your attack speed by about 25%. Right off
the bat, though, if you switch to heavy armor it'll slow your attack speed
from where it's at now (60, IIRC) to 100. Such is the cost of learning
armor skill.


> > I'll stop posting about it, though, because the guy's probably either
won
> > or died by now.
> >
>
> Actually, I am observing this discussion with great interest. I don't
> really know what to do now, so am leaving the character in stasis until
this
> comes to a head.

I just got killed by hell knights in the Snake Pit. So watch out for them.

--
Jeremey
Anonymous
August 16, 2004 11:18:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

> > Has anyone won with Evasion over AC?

> I'd rather get hit 6 times in a row for ten damage each time, than go
> miss-miss-miss-60 damage-miss-miss, myself, because there's always that 1/8
> chance that a stone giant is going to hit you three times in a row.

It may be irrelevent at this point, but I put together a spreadsheet
comparing a AC-based fighter vs a EV-based fighter.

The results show that 'on average' a EV-based fighter has the same
survivability as an AC-based fighter. The difference (as pointed out
above) is whether you want to risk getting hit HARD infrequently, or
take less damage more often.

For those that are still reading...
I compared generic characters with armor/dodge skills of 5, 10, 20,
27, +2 cloak, gloves, helm, boots and either a +3 robe or +3 plate
mail against monsters of HD 5, 10, 20 and 20 that inflict 5, 20, 30 or
40 damage.
AC-based characters had a dex of 9, 12, 15, 15; EV-based characters
had a dex of 15, 18, 21, 26.
Then I calculated (based on their skills & armor) how often they would
dodge attacks and how much damage reduction they would have.
The average damage taken (assuming a large sample, not just 3-5
attacks...):
AC-Based: 0, 4, 7, 9
EV-Based: 0, 3, 7, 5

Note, that last number is a bit misleading. The EV-based character
will be getting hit rather infrequently, but taking >30 damage when
they are hit!
!