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forced to agree with fugger, amdmeltdown...

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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 1:43:10 AM

yes......they have a point. i used to get angry when i read about them going on about athlons burning up, but now i gotta agree with them. i didnt want to have to say this, but there are just SO many ppl who screw up. it was one post today that was just the last straw. important note: i still dont think athlons have a heat problem. oh no, its the stupid retarded morons that CANT CORRECTLY SEAT AN HSF ON A CPU!!! my god, what is wrong with you retards??? can you tie your shoes?? do have trouble remembering how to breathe??

anyway...i now agree with the intel morons that if you are a braindead loser, you are best off getting an intel because otherwise you will burn up your chip. im sorry but there are so many imbeciles here that just cant do it. however, i will not agree with them that athlons are incompatible and via sucks and intel is better blah blah blah....cos its not. if you have a semblance of intelligence, buy an amd and your wallet will love you for it. if you frequently have trouble making toast, go intel. you dumb bastard.

oh yeah, im not saying amd users are stupid. im saying everybodys stupid. so dont go getting offended just by that, get offended for a large range of things.

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: cape does not enable user to fly.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 2:18:58 AM

Mr.Man eh? Who the hell are you to call people stupid that can't install a processor. If you've never done it how are you supposed to know. I know surgeons with PhD's that get confused when they get a boot failure for having a floppy in their drive when they trun on their computer. Does that make them stupid? No it just means they aren't educated in computers. So I seriously think you need to refrain from cutting other people down just because they aren't a "computer geek" like you. Wow you can install a heatsink whoppity doopity you're my hero. I am very knowledgeable with computers and I never make fun of someone who doesn't know a thing about PC's. And by the way Intel does make better chips. Sure you might be able to tweak the hell out of an AMD system and get lucky with certain components, but for overall reliability, quality, and compatibility you can't beat Intel (they aren't the most powerful chip maker in the world for their stupid blue men commercials). Sure they're more expensive, but you get what you pay for. So grow up and play with your AMD's all you want, don't knock people that have no education in PC's. I'm sure they could call you a F%$^&% idiot when it come to other subjects.
February 22, 2001 2:28:36 AM

Mr Hack. You aren't going to last long here. This is a forum for computer inclined people. Let us think what we want about someone who can't use their floppy...
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Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 3:16:46 AM

mr hack, i didnt sit in this darkened room for the last 30 years, shunning women, sunlight and nutrition so that i couldnt hassle people that cant do things i can ok??

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: cape does not enable user to fly.
February 22, 2001 4:14:36 AM

i had a discussion about this the other day. I went to an astronomy club at my university. My wife got a bit upset when one of the faculty shunned her for being an anthopologist as if she was not good enough to be an astronomer. I was a caught in the middle since of course that person can think what they want, but at the same time little does he realize that she could be an astronomer if she wished, but she chooses not to. She was on that track at one point, but changed. But that person of course doesn't know that.

Sometimes it's not so much about stupidity. However, people will think what they want and most of the time we like to think that we are better than others. It's a sad part of human nature since it often leads to war.

I would like to think though that if a person does want to complain about computer illiterate people, this would be it. Just like an astronomy club was the place for that faculty member to put himself on top....
February 22, 2001 5:30:24 AM

Well said MR Hack. I agree with your post. Isn't the whole purpose of the forum to help newbies? BTW mr man, shut that rig down for a while and get some fresh air :smile: !

:tongue: <font color=green> I LOVE INTEL. It tastes like chicken </font color=green>
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 5:56:11 AM

I tend to agree with you for the most part but have to put in a little for the Morons out there. Not everyone comes out of the box knowing how to install a heatsink on their CPU correctly but then again that's why there are instructions and forums...........DAMB your right they are MORONS after all!

PS. Stop screwing your hand and get some real trim, it will do you good!

Mike

If I know one thing it's that I don't know [-peep-]!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 6:10:28 AM

Last here long? Do you think I really care if I last here long? I have a very good life with a very good career. I am just a fanatic of computers. I go into these forums to see what other people are sayin about PC's. Isn't that why you come here? Don't you come here to find out more about PC's? So just because the level of information that you don't know isn't quite to the level that someone else doesn't know doesn't mean they are inferior. It shouldn't matter to come here whether or not you are looking for ways to choose your first computer, or if you are looking to learn all of the protocols of an Oracle server. The only thing I don't think will last here long is belittling others for their lack of knowledge. Remember "Someone out there will always know more than you do, does that make you stupid?"
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 8:13:02 AM

actually hack, i didnt mean being stupid as in screwing something up. hell ive screwed a lot of really simple stuff up in my life. for instance, the time i was trying to install the usb drivers on my board, but it just wouldnt work, i couldnt think of anything else to do, so i ejected the cd and voila! theres the problem...i had the cd for another motherboard in there....oops :) .

but putting on a heatsink?? theres only one possible way you can do it....how can you stuff that up??? i dont get it....there is NO POSSIBLE WAY YOU CAN GET THAT WRONG

<sigh>

oh and by the way, I WAS [-peep-] KIDDING about being in a darkened room and stuff.....you ppl are so straight up

LEGAL DISCLAIMER: cape does not enable user to fly.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 11:58:13 AM

I hear you Hack, I hate the fact that when you go to forums someone always (whether or not its directed to you personally) has something to say about 'lasting'??? Who really cares, a lot of people come here to learn....because they dont know...Shoot we are on the internet, there must be millions of forums...we just haven't found them.

And to those that just get an erection to down talk someone, just remember there was a time when you didn't know much on computers either...it might have been 2, 5, 10, 25 years ago but we all are newbies to something @ 1 time in our lives. And as an AMD fan to you Intel kats realize ppl will listen to you more when your attitude isn't so damn negative, because I might go with an AMD but you guys do make some damn good points on Intel sometimes.

:hat
February 22, 2001 12:28:05 PM

Hey Hack, it's blatantly obvious that you're a lot more intelligent than mr_man. And you're exactly right.

Now, I have actually seen people that make dogs look intelligent call themselves computer experts. And in those cases, they're obviously dumb and deserving any and all degrading comments we can think of. :) 

But there is also a large difference between ignorance and stupidity. Just because a person doesn't know something, doesn't mean that they don't have the potential to learn. Ignorance is an easily solvable situation. Stupidity however is unfixable. So obvioiusly mr_man has no clue what he's saying when he's calling so many people stupid.

And, I'd just like to add for general edification that there are numerous reasons other than just the simplicity of installation for going with an Intel chip system. (I really should just write up a list in Notepad or something so I can copy and paste it every time this comes up.)

Reasons for going with Intel over AMD:
* easy to set up
* doesn't require patches and driver updates to get up and running
* multi-processor support
* RDRAM support (yes, it's expensive, but it does outperform in some areas)
* SSE2 support
* Intel's devotion to providing quality products
* Thermal protection

Reasons for going with AMD over Intel:
* Stronger DDR SDRAM support
* Less expensive

So depending on a customer's needs, they should choose the system which is best for them. NEITHER system is better than the other for ALL users.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 12:37:52 PM

I see your point.. So people who don't know how to put HSF on they f*cking AMD CPU-s, automaticly lower themselfs to MY lever - Intel. So sad... I feel sorry for you, try to find some gasolin and lighten yourself up! You and your pointless messages makes me wanna cry. Because AMD is unable to protect theyr CPU-s it does not mean that Intel user's can't install fan on processors.
Flame in peace brother! ..and get yourself a life.

<i> And they said schizophrenia is annoying?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 12:52:41 PM

Just wanna say, nice to hear some intelligent talk over a while!
In my opinion, there is two(three?) major options in CPU-world: Intel and AMD (and Alpha; RISK?). I hate to hear Intel is good for nothing and Intel users are lowest lifeforms on IT world etc..
Sometimes is good to compare, but this place reminds me of gindergarden sometimes.

<i> And they said schizophrenia is annoying?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 12:53:08 PM

I feel a few crucial things have been left out of the list...

Reasons for going with Intel or AMD:
* Easy to setup (though arguably an AMD system is just as easy if you know what you're doing)
* RDRAM support (if you actually want the benefits granted by RDRAM instead of SDRAM; remember, it's not that one's better than the other, they have their own strengths)
* Immediate dual processor support (however, AMD is bringing out their own dual processor support [hopefully sooner than later], we'll have to see how well it performs before we can judge it though)
* Immediate SSE2 support (however, SSE2 is not popularly used at this time; when it is, AMD's will have SSE2 as well)
* Thermal protection (we can all hope and pray that AMD will supply this with their next chips)
* Build their own chipsets to work with their processors (I feel this is very important; even if AMD proc's are better, Intel chipsets are better [i820, i810 and i840 excluded])
* Work with software developers to create optimizations for their chips (this makes all the difference in the world, just look at Quake 3)

Reasons to go with AMD over Intel:
* Immediate DDR SDRAM support (much like the RDRAM arguement, it depends on your needs more than anything)
* Less expensive
* Stronger FPU performance (if you really need the FPU, then AMD chips deliver more of it than their Intel counter-parts)
* Competition (it keeps the market moving quickly as AMD is Intel's only real competition now; Transmeta maybe...)

The bottom line is that Intel is an established brand. They market their name and, IMHO, really do mark up their price accordingly. The price difference is not justifiable in quality. Intel DOES, however, provide chipsets for their processors and I feel that makes a HUGE difference. Intel chipsets provide large advantages over AMD chipsets. I think that Intel has more experience here and it shows. I wish Intel would make chipsets for AMD's. :)  AMD's are good processors with 2nd party chipsets. The chipsets, IMO, are not up to par. I'll continue to buy chips to suit my needs. At this point, I need both an Intel system and an AMD system.

Charles
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 2:31:30 PM

Thank you Slvr and CGalyon for your open minded and unbiased posts. Although there are alot of intelligent ppl on this forum, there are those that cant convey there thoughts in such a mature manner, its ppl like you that make it nice to come here and learn a thing or two. Instead of wondering what a$$ is going to say something, intelligent, yet put it so negatively that sometimes you dont even want to be bothered.

Peace....

:hat
February 22, 2001 4:02:55 PM

I think it's extremely important to recognize that some people just want to say whatever makes them feel more important. Let them do it. Like I said above, or at least tried to imply, that's their thing. It doesn't have to be yours or mine, but if you haven't learned to deal with it yet, then what have you been doing?

If you know a lot about cars, is it wrong to laugh a bit when your friend can't change his oil? I sure don't take that personally. I could care less...but people do do it.

Same thing about people who don't know the difference between a keyboard and a disk drive. People find it "funny", but I could care less. My mother just started using a computer a month ago.

This is a forum and you can say whatever you want. But the truth is that a person who knows absolutely nothing about PC's generally doesn't show up in here. And if they are in here it generally means they want to know more.

On the same token this is where you will find people who have to put themselves on top. Just deal with it.
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 6:18:34 PM

Hey, it is possible for an inteligent person to put a heatsink on the wrong way-I did it once while talking to a customer because I got distracted. They have a groove on one side in case you did not remember. So if I can do it once because I wasn't paying attention, why couldn't a newbee do it because he did not know better?

Suicide is painless...........
February 22, 2001 7:17:03 PM

Your list is flawed.

First of all, RDRAM support is nothing to be bragging about. 2nd, AMD will have SMP in a month. 3rd, if Intel ever had a devotion to making quality products, they lost it. A long time ago.

The list is more like this:

Reasons for Going with Intel over AMD:
* Thermal Protection
* Almost zero incompatability problems


Reasons for going with AMD over Intel:
* DDR SDRAM Support
* Stellar price/performance ratio
* Superior FPU

-----------------
Satan Clara...... 'Nuff said.
February 22, 2001 7:52:23 PM

But there are a few flaws with your list too. You can't count products that don't exist yet. When they do exist, then we'll count them. Until then, the list stands.

And maybe you don't think RDRAM counts for sunning drek. I didn't used to. I doubt many people do. But it does have one major advantage that no one is looking at, especially in the P4.

Every time RDRAM gets faster, it's still printed using the same standards. The stick slots don't change. And the systems using RDRAM show significant improvements in overall speed as you put faster and faster RDRAM into them.

But with SDRAM systems, to get significant system speed boosts you have to go from single-rate to DDR. And that requires an all new motherboard to do. Talk about a pain in the hiney, and a costly means of improvement. And it'll get worse because the next speed increase in SDRAM is more than likely going to come from a quad-rate method. And that'll once again require a new motherboard.

Plus, if you compare the high-end DDR SDRAM that you can actually trust to work right in your system to RDRAM (which I have yet to hear of a complaint about a faulty stick from) the prices are pretty darn similar.

So all considered, if I were shopping for a new system today, I would actually give RDRAM a serious consideration because a system using it in the future is going to be a lot more upgradable and see a considerable performance improvement from that upgrade.

But then I wouldn't buy a new system today because I'm waiting to see what the next gen chip battles are going to be like. I have no problems with waiting another year to upgrade.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
February 22, 2001 8:19:28 PM

My opinions:

Very first of all, if someone installs a HSF wrong and THEN come here to see why their system isn’t working, they are dumb as a box of rocks in my book. If you haven’t ever built a PC, don’t you think you should do the research BEFORE you fry your CPU? That is what I feel the purpose of these forums is. If you do make a mistake and put the CPU on wrong even after you knew what you were doing, then you should know the consequences of your actions.
Second, Slvr Phoenix, you cannot obviously see that any one person is smarter than another by their posts. Intelligence doesn’t relate only to computers.
Third Phoenix, I have two AMD systems that I have probably installed a total of 10-15 different times with everything from 95 to 2000 Advanced Server, and I installed about 10 systems back when they were running about 200-300 MHz and I worked in a computer store. I have NEVER downloaded any patches of any kind. Is this a new thing to the Athlons?
Finally, Phoenix (again), Multiprocessor support isn’t really an advantage of a chip. First of all, you need NT or 2K to utilize them both , and then you need to spend extra on a MoBo to have 2 slots, and the only time you NEED it is in specialized applications that maybe account for 1% (probably .01%) of PC sales. I can see why AMD wasn’t in a rush to get into that market. If they spent more on R&D to develop more Dual CPU systems, then the chip prices would be higher.

That’s my feelings. I really hope that they totally offend someone and they come back with a post that just rips me a new a$$hole, because the people that take these posts too seriously provide me with endless hours of entertainment.


What's a signature? Oh, those words that show up after all my comments? I don't need one of those!
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 9:55:21 PM

RDRAM does deserve some credit. Though it certainly seems impractical for the majority of consumers, RDRAM lends itself well to some massive memory transfers. Whenever an application needs to transmit a large chunk of data (can't qualify the statement with a specific amount; I don't remember what amount it picks up on), RDRAM is king. For the majority of applications (which tend to transmit 256K or less at a time), SDRAM is still a bit better (and more affordable).

Can't really comment much on the Intel slam. With the exception of i815EP, Intel hasn't put out a decent chipset in quite a while. The P4 doesn't help their cause much as it's the first less than relevant CPU to hit the market. :/  Who knows, maybe in a few months (ok, maybe 8 months+) the P4, if it's still around, will be an excellent performer? ;)  I really do hope Intel starts putting out some awesome chips again. Stagnation is the worst thing for the market!

Charles
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 22, 2001 9:59:28 PM

SDRAM from 66MHz to 100MHz to 133MHz were all pretty significant performance improvements. Of course, those entailed changes in the FSB which led to larger improvements... Still, I think you can see my point. However, with the ever increasing demands of software, I think RDRAM will become a better RAM to use.

Charles
February 22, 2001 10:17:10 PM

I read it's very possible that the heatsink doesn't touch die well. Or that they choose a improper heatsinkfan or thermalpaste, or that they damage a capacity by accident, or that they damage even cpu, or that they got a bad powersupply or a motherboard or a case. They try it and it' s not always successful at first. They try again and get better, I guess.
February 23, 2001 2:49:50 AM

Straight up [-peep-], I come to this bitch to learn about computers. Not to be insulted by some bitch ass little man thinking just cuz someone I know how to fuckin overclock a fuckin cpu..I am stupid. Implying someone that uses intel chips is somehow inferior to someone using an AMD chip is well....bullshit. AMD makes a decent chip for a nice price, but intel makes a decent chip too. It may cost a bit more, but they are extremely reliable and will do anything a fuckin AMD chip will do.
I don't understand why some AMD users feel they are special for using an AMD chip. I wear fuckin adidas shoes...so I don't go around fuckin arguing with people that wear nikes. Mine were cheaper...and I can run faster hahahaha. What the [-peep-] does that prove. If using a certain CPU brand is the only thing you got going for ya..then you might consider killing yourself. A cpu does not define who you are. ALSO I wonder why all these people take such pride in using AMD chips... WHY?? What has AMD done for you? Did the CEO shake your hand when you bought it?? Did they send you a fruit basket?? Did they give you a gift certificate to mcdonalds?? NO..you gave them money they gave you a chip. Stop taking so much pride in something that doesn't give a [-peep-] about you.
That hack benjamin is one smart [-peep-]. I'd like to meet that guy. he sounds fresh as hell.
February 23, 2001 3:04:54 AM

You wear adidas??? You bastard!!!!

:) 
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 23, 2001 8:21:19 AM

Calm Calm Calm , everything is OK
If you read alot of the posts in this forum(not just in this thread) then you will see that there is only a small group of ppl that want to suck either Intel or AMD off... thay are as bad as each other....
my fastet PC is currently AMD but I can't tell you what my next one will be until I asses what is out there at the time...

Anyway go get yourself a beer and calm down :) 

M

UK Prices are <font color=red>toooooooooo</font color=red> high , keep competition going to bring em down :smile:
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 23, 2001 8:26:22 AM

Correct me If I am wrong but the big disadvantage that RDRam has is latency , which makes it good for some things but not so good for others. I would like to see some bench mark results with a P4 with RD Ram V P4 with DDR SDRam....

M

UK Prices are <font color=red>toooooooooo</font color=red> high , keep competition going to bring em down :smile:
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 23, 2001 12:49:54 PM

Yeah, that's pretty much the story with RDRAM. Additionally though is it's data transfer capability, which is much higher than SDRAM. That, in turn, is the reason for it to be good for some things and not good for others (as you said). I too would like to see a P4 DDR SDRAM and P4 RDRAM compared to each other. I think Intel is making a DDR SDRAM chipset for P4 and I think they're allowing Via to make one too (or something like that). Can't remember the details, but basically your wish will be granted soon enough.

Charles
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 23, 2001 1:01:21 PM

Actually I kinda have to Disagree with you on that one. Unless RDRAM intends to become faster than pc800 anytime soon, its going to get throughly smashed by QDR sdram, which is already in development. While I admit that RDRAM can become better than any other memory type in certain almost extreme circumstances, the real world numbers for the most part dont cut it. But hey , I could be wrong, and we could see it smash DDR sdram when the new P4 chipsets come out. I kinda doubt it, but well just have to see.

<i>Nascar racing is one of the few sports where spectators routinely die</i>
February 23, 2001 3:13:59 PM

Actually, I seem to remember hearing about RDRAM working on a 1GHz frequency, which would increase bandwidth greatly over PC800. I also thought I heard something about them already working on a quad-rate method, and that actually this had been in development before quad-rate SDRAM. It was in some article ranting about how SDRAM can only copy RDRAM for bandwidth improvements.

Of course, the problem with these vague memories is that I have no idea if the articles were on the web or in a magazine or what, not to mention where to find them to give exact quotes or anything.

But basically, the only thing really holding back RDRAM is the fact that no one really wants to produce memory with that licence because no one believes that RDRAM will catch on. But since the P4 has appeared, that's been changing. And soon we'll see technological advances for RDRAM as often (if not more often) than SDRAM... At least that's what I'd expect to see happening.

They're both good memory types. Ideally though, the best memory would be a less hot RDRAM with a lower latency. Until we see that, which memory you should use really depends on what you'd be using it for.

I absolutely hate the Rambus tactic in these litigations, and I moderately despise the company for that. But, I do think RDRAM has more potential for growth than SDRAM.

But then, I also think that both memory types will eventually be replaced anyway. But that'll probably be at least another 5 to 10 years off. :) 

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
February 23, 2001 4:13:57 PM

I 'd first like to say that if someone goes to install a heat sink and messes it up and then comes to this board to find out what went wrong, it makes perfect sense.

Most people, I'm sure, would assume that the instructions that come with the heat sink would be sufficient explanation for installing the heat sink. Then when they find out something went wrong, they come on line to find better instructions and what went wrong. It makes perfect sense to me and has nothing to do with stupidity. **shrug**

Ideally, yes, people should research stuff fully before they go and do it themselves. But also ideally the instructions that come with the hardware SHOULD be sufficient for the task at hand. Since we live in a less than ideal world, sometimes the results are also less than ideal. Such is life. Intelligence is the ability to learn from those kind of situations and not repeat them a second time. But to make a mistake the first time through is just life. This is one of the reasons I really think AMD chips should come with thermal protection. Humans make mistakes.

And, for your information I can very well tell how intelligent one person is compared to another by their posts. Grammer and vocabulary themselves are excellent indications of intelligence. There are also numerous other things to pick up on, especially during debates.

As for patches and driver updates frequently needed with AMD systems, yes, it is something with newer systems. 99.99% of the problems that you need these updates for are with the VIA chipset motherboards that until recently Athlons practically required because no one else was making a chipset for them. Because of this, the vast majority of AMD systems in use today will have probably had at least one driver update before they'll work flawslessly. I however still have a system that even with the latest VIA patches continues to have bugs. I think that the main reason for that is that VIA has yet to fully support Windows 2000. But either way, it is a VERY common occurance when purchasing a system with a VIA motherboard to do a driver update just to make your system stable. And since it's VERY common to use a VIA chipset motherboard with an AMD system, that means MOST AMD systems will require a driver update to run with any semblance of stability.

As for your statement about multiple-processor support not being an advantage of a chip, you need to wake up to the real world. For YOU perhaps it isn't important. But there are countless people who NEED such support. I'd like to see someone run a high-end graphics platform on a single processor. Ha!

My list was not to say that EVERYONE NEEDS those things. It was to list the various reasons why someone would need one chip instead of the other. And yes, that list is constantly changing as AMD and Intel both produce new products.

And for the general public: I know I left out FPU performance as a reason to go with AMD. But I've found a lot of cases where people will look towards an Alpha instead of a T-Bird when they want FPU performance. So I wasn't too sure that it was really a valid point because I haven't heard of many cases where someone actually chooses an AMD chip over an Intel chip for it's FPU abilities. But yes, AMD chips do definately have better a better FPU than Intel chips. (Especially when compared to the current P4.)

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
February 23, 2001 5:06:05 PM

In the K6 days, a big reason choosing the Celeron over the K6-2 family was that Celerons had better FPU performance. The Alphas are much more expensive than althlon based PCs, aren't they?
February 23, 2001 6:03:30 PM

Alpha is alot more expensive.

Compaq alphaserver start out @ $5,000 for base model, expect $6,000 +


Alpha is doing some wierd stuff lately. chipsets are changing constantly

Current UP1200 (alphaserver) has tsunami chipset with intel network.
older UP1100 has mixed AMD 751 north, and ALI south, with intel network. (not popular choice, avoid)
UP1500 rumored EV6, AMD 761 chipset, under development. past due by 2 months now.
Samsung is also working on i850 version, QDR us a possibile avenue for alpha. but time will tell when NDA is lifted.

Samsung makes the UP mobo's

http://samsungelectronics.com/semiconductors/alpha_cpu/...

www.priceatch.com
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
February 23, 2001 6:14:39 PM

You Intelphiles are all insane. *Anyone* who can't install a HSF on a chip has no business installing any sort of chip in their PC, Intel, AMD, Cyrix or whatever. It's not exactly difficult to get right, after all?

1. Pull up lever
2. Put chip in socket, push down lever
3. Put heatsink on the top, put clips around socket
4. Put fan on heatsink
5. Attach power
6. Turn on PC

If this assembly happens to be at 10 degrees from the vertical, then you got it wrong. :) 

(You may have to ignore my signature for this debate)

~ I'm not AMD biased, I just think their chips are better ~
February 23, 2001 6:22:33 PM

Oh definately Alphas are more expensive.

But those people who view FPU as a major deciding factor in purchasing a system are generally scientists or graphic artists. Because of that they tend to quite often have the funding for an expensive system.

I mean in the company I work for, we sell analytical x-ray devices for a minimum of around half a mil. So who cares about a couple grand saved by going with a T-Bird when you can get an Alpha? That's the view of a lot of our potential customers. Which is why I have an Alpha sitting on my desk along side a P3, so that I can make Alpha or x86 compiled executables.

At least in theory.

It'd help development in that respect a LOT if more companies like Matrox (of which we use their MIL camera/image grabbing software) were to more readily support the Alphas.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
February 23, 2001 6:27:47 PM

Yeah, except that when it takes so much force to clamp the darned heat sink down that you end up forcing it and then you hear that dreaded crunch and pray to every deity that ever existed that you just didn't crack off any of the chip.

Not that I've ever done this. :)  But then I'm content to keep the stock heat sink because I haven't had a system that I've ever even wanted to overclock yet.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
a b à CPUs
February 23, 2001 7:41:51 PM

Yeah, a big bad rumble of flaming posts, my favorite!

I just want to say that I moderately agree with Mr Man's opinion. I don't actualy think that people who can't fix a heatsink are dumb, but if they don't but still mess around with their PC they are rather "unwise" I guess. If you aren't that used to work with computers, would you bet your CPU and/or mobo on your own skill? Even right now, I personaly don't dare to overclock because I don't want to void my warranty and I don't have another 400$CND to put on another CPU. When I will be able to afford a new one I might try out and learn from my experiences.

"If you can't afford to loose you can't afford to win"
This is applicable in many situation.
February 23, 2001 7:54:59 PM

I don't know...

I mean I've seen incredibly skilled PC technicians make a mistake like dropping a screw driver or cracking off the corner of a chip while mounting a heat sink.

I think in many cases it's the more skilled people who are prone to makes mistakes because they're simply used to things going right and don't worry about things because they 'know what they're doing'. Where as the less-experienced people take things very slowly and make sure everything that they do is exactly according to instructions.

If I were to put together a new system, I'd definately overclock it. But I don't think I'd want to screw with any of my running systems. I only fix things when they're broke. :) 

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.
February 23, 2001 8:29:06 PM

Good arguement above Slvr_Phoenix. I still feel that the Dual CPU's are more of a niche market, but I fully understand that they will never go away. I work for UPS and we probably have 1000 work stations for each dual CPU machine. But it doesn't matter. I also understand what you meant by the skilled techs making mistakes, but those are mistakes or accidents, not doing something wrong. If I drop a screwdriver or put the HSF on wrong, it was an accident. If a newbie does it, it was probably done incorrectly. At the same time, if I make a mistake and fry a CPU, I will replace it and put it in myself. If someone does something wrong, they may give up on computers altogether, or worse yet get an OEM box. <shudders>. Also, many of the items that you can get at a great price come with little to no instructions. Yeah, the MoBo should tell you how to install the CPU/HSF, but if it doesn't? If you get a cheap HSF/CPU at a show, you will probably get NO documentation with it. Anyway, I digress. My points to offer to everyone:
1. Do a TON of research before you build your first system.
2. Don't listen to anyone here on the AMD/Intel or the NVidia/ATI debate. Talk with people close to you, or go with your gut feeling. None are perfect, but all can run really well.
3. When you decide to build your first system, have someone around who has done it before. Tiny details like a flipped FDD cable can be a big problem, but super easy to fix.
4. If you are building your very first system, you might not want to go with the Thunderbird 1.2 GHz, 512M RAM, and the GeForce Ultra. Start with a Celeron or a Duron with a GeForce2 MX or 32M Radeon. If you get that system working, the concepts will be the same for any system you build, and you can save hundreds of dollars if you do make any mistakes. The system will run most anything you throw at it with ease.

What's a signature? Oh, those words that show up after all my comments? I don't need one of those!
February 23, 2001 9:00:05 PM

Wow at least they tried to do it. I sure hope I don't screw my first one up and have to ask how to fix it.

Someday I will stop asking all the questions!
!