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[Announce] Dweller 0.6 released

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Anonymous
September 24, 2004 8:56:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.announce,rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Version 0.6 of the cellphone roguelike Dweller has just been
released. Main changes/additions are the basics of a quest system with a
simple test quest and a new wilderness level above the dungeon.

Full release notes here:
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller

Get the new version here:
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jar
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jad

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 12:45:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström wrote:
> Version 0.6 of the cellphone roguelike Dweller has just been
> released. Main changes/additions are the basics of a quest system with a
> simple test quest and a new wilderness level above the dungeon.
>
> Full release notes here:
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller
>
> Get the new version here:
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jar
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jad

Lovin it, will try it soon...

Will keep previous version in case of problems... you may want to
consider keeping an old "Last Known Working/Stable For All Phones
Version" at some stage later on? I spose we are not out of beta yet
anyway though...

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <========= VOTE DO GOODER CAP. SET =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 12:45:35 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ABCGi wrote:
> Björn Bergström wrote:
>
>> Version 0.6 of the cellphone roguelike Dweller has just been
>> released. Main changes/additions are the basics of a quest system with a
>> simple test quest and a new wilderness level above the dungeon.
>>
>> Full release notes here:
>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller
>>
>> Get the new version here:
>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jar
>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jad
>
>
> Lovin it, will try it soon...
>
> Will keep previous version in case of problems... you may want to
> consider keeping an old "Last Known Working/Stable For All Phones
> Version" at some stage later on? I spose we are not out of beta yet
> anyway though...

I'm actually storing old version online (although well hidden).The old
version can be found here:

http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.613/Dweller...
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.622/Dweller...
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.828/Dweller...
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.829/Dweller...
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.905/Dweller...
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.910/Dweller...
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.912/Dweller...
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.920/Dweller...

I'm afraid I don't have older versions as easily accessible as the ones
above. I'm actually not using CVS yet (I only take regular backups of my
work) but I plan on doing so as soon as possible. CVS makes version
handling so much easier...

Regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Related resources
Anonymous
September 28, 2004 8:17:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström wrote:
> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> Björn Bergström wrote:
>>
>>> Version 0.6 of the cellphone roguelike Dweller has just been
>>> released. Main changes/additions are the basics of a quest system with a
>>> simple test quest and a new wilderness level above the dungeon.
>>>
>>> Full release notes here:
>>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller
>>>
>>> Get the new version here:
>>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jar
>>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jad
>>
>>
>>
>> Lovin it, will try it soon...
>>
>> Will keep previous version in case of problems... you may want to
>> consider keeping an old "Last Known Working/Stable For All Phones
>> Version" at some stage later on? I spose we are not out of beta yet
>> anyway though...
>
>
> I'm actually storing old version online (although well hidden).The old
> version can be found here:
>
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.613/Dweller...
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.622/Dweller...
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.828/Dweller...
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.829/Dweller...
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.905/Dweller...
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.910/Dweller...
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.912/Dweller...
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.920/Dweller...
>
> I'm afraid I don't have older versions as easily accessible as the ones
> above. I'm actually not using CVS yet (I only take regular backups of my
> work) but I plan on doing so as soon as possible. CVS makes version
> handling so much easier...
>
> Regards,
> Björn Bergström
> roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
> dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]

Cool, I only ever need the last working version and I keep that backed
up in case the new one I install does not work.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 2, 2004 6:54:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Was it just plain madness? Or maybe ABCGi wrote the truth:
> Björn Bergström wrote:
>> ABCGi wrote:
>>> Björn Bergström wrote:
>> roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
>> dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
> Cool, I only ever need the last working version and I keep that backed
> up in case the new one I install does not work.

Did anyone manage to run Dweller on a Java-enabled Siemens? I'm wondering in
particular wether it would run on a SL45i...

regards,
Kornel Kisilewicz
Anonymous
October 4, 2004 12:34:30 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Was it just plain madness? Or maybe ABCGi wrote the truth:
>
>>Björn Bergström wrote:
>>
>>>ABCGi wrote:
>>>
>>>>Björn Bergström wrote:
>>>
>>>roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
>>>dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
>>
>>Cool, I only ever need the last working version and I keep that backed
>>up in case the new one I install does not work.
>
>
> Did anyone manage to run Dweller on a Java-enabled Siemens? I'm wondering in
> particular wether it would run on a SL45i...

I have received reports of Dweller running on Siemens phones and I'm
pretty confident that the game will run on an SL45i. It all boils down
to JAR size limit and heap space. The current JAR size is about 45kb,
and most lowend/older phones have a 64kb limit. You will loose some of
the gameplay since the phone is monochrome, but it would definatley
still be playable. Please give it a try and let me know if it works.

> regards,
> Kornel Kisilewicz

Regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 6, 2004 6:31:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Uzytkownik "Björn Bergström" <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org>
napisal w wiadomosci news:2sc998F1irqlrU1@uni-berlin.de...
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> > Did anyone manage to run Dweller on a Java-enabled Siemens? I'm
wondering in
> > particular wether it would run on a SL45i...
>
> I have received reports of Dweller running on Siemens phones and I'm
> pretty confident that the game will run on an SL45i. It all boils down
> to JAR size limit and heap space. The current JAR size is about 45kb,
> and most lowend/older phones have a 64kb limit. You will loose some of
> the gameplay since the phone is monochrome, but it would definatley
> still be playable. Please give it a try and let me know if it works.

Unfortunately it doesn't :( . I got the "Out of heap memory!" message after a
few seconds of loading. I wonder if anything can be done about that. But I
doubt it :( .

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Anonymous
October 6, 2004 1:22:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Uzytkownik "Björn Bergström" <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org>
> napisal w wiadomosci news:2sc998F1irqlrU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
>>Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>>
>>>Did anyone manage to run Dweller on a Java-enabled Siemens? I'm
>
> wondering in
>
>>>particular wether it would run on a SL45i...
>>
>>I have received reports of Dweller running on Siemens phones and I'm
>>pretty confident that the game will run on an SL45i. It all boils down
>>to JAR size limit and heap space. The current JAR size is about 45kb,
>>and most lowend/older phones have a 64kb limit. You will loose some of
>>the gameplay since the phone is monochrome, but it would definatley
>>still be playable. Please give it a try and let me know if it works.
>
>
> Unfortunately it doesn't :( . I got the "Out of heap memory!" message after a
> few seconds of loading. I wonder if anything can be done about that. But I
> doubt it :( .

I've seen figures of only 16kb of heap space memory for the SL45i.
Unfortunately Dweller takes a bit more than that at the moment. I have a
final trick that would reduce the memory footprint even more, but that
would make my code even less OO.

> regards,
> Kornel Kisielewicz

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 6, 2004 7:30:56 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström wrote:

>
> I've seen figures of only 16kb of heap space memory for the SL45i.
> Unfortunately Dweller takes a bit more than that at the moment. I have a
> final trick that would reduce the memory footprint even more, but that
> would make my code even less OO.

OO-ness is not a virtue in an environment with limited memory.
Virtual method tables can become expensive even though invisible.
Bear
Anonymous
October 7, 2004 11:58:05 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Ray Dillinger wrote:
> Björn Bergström wrote:
>
>>
>> I've seen figures of only 16kb of heap space memory for the SL45i.
>> Unfortunately Dweller takes a bit more than that at the moment. I have
>> a final trick that would reduce the memory footprint even more, but
>> that would make my code even less OO.
>
>
> OO-ness is not a virtue in an environment with limited memory.
> Virtual method tables can become expensive even though invisible.
> Bear
>

Correct. I have been forced to throw out more and more specialised
classes in favor of more general ones to reduce the number of classes in
the system. The change I was refering to was to remove the Cell class
(Map has 2D array of Cells) and put the Cell data and methods in Map
instead. This will ofcourse greatly reduce the amount of needed heap
memory since the overhead for each Cell instance is quite big.

Regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 5:08:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström wrote:
> Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>> Björn Bergström wrote:
>>>
>>> I've seen figures of only 16kb of heap space memory for the SL45i.
>>> Unfortunately Dweller takes a bit more than that at the moment. I
>>> have a final trick that would reduce the memory footprint even more,
>>> but that would make my code even less OO.
>>
>> OO-ness is not a virtue in an environment with limited memory.
>> Virtual method tables can become expensive even though invisible.
>> Bear
>
> Correct. I have been forced to throw out more and more specialised
> classes in favor of more general ones to reduce the number of classes in
> the system. The change I was refering to was to remove the Cell class
> (Map has 2D array of Cells) and put the Cell data and methods in Map
> instead. This will ofcourse greatly reduce the amount of needed heap
> memory since the overhead for each Cell instance is quite big.

For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty good
and complete in 0.6

Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
start. Look around feature is cool.

Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
* Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
* Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
* Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away (intended?)
* Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
(nit pick)
* 2 Spike traps did not injure me?

A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but given
memory problems....

I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 5:26:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ABCGi wrote:
> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty good
> and complete in 0.6
>
> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
> start. Look around feature is cool.
>
> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away (intended?)
> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
> (nit pick)
> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?
>
> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but given
> memory problems....
>
> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.

* Monsters definitely either run away or won't chase/approach player (as
far down as level 4). Even after melee. Even Walking Dead monster...
* No message upon firing Wand of Poison (ie you poisoned the creature,
you hit, you missed etc). You do receive a "No more charges" once it
runs out.
* The version numbers on the web page for phones "Tested on:" is out of
date or does it show the first version the phone worked on? ie Nokia
6610 (v.0.4.531) - nit pick
* The Check Version nokia command from game menu comes back Invalid File
error - not important
* Using wand of healing on self does not heal and does not give any
message when a) just come down stairs OR b) first time wand is used OR
c) failed use of wand (should say "You stuff it up")

The no-HP recovery is great.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 3:58:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ABCGi wrote:
> Björn Bergström wrote:
>
>> Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>
>>> Björn Bergström wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've seen figures of only 16kb of heap space memory for the SL45i.
>>>> Unfortunately Dweller takes a bit more than that at the moment. I
>>>> have a final trick that would reduce the memory footprint even more,
>>>> but that would make my code even less OO.
>>>
>>>
>>> OO-ness is not a virtue in an environment with limited memory.
>>> Virtual method tables can become expensive even though invisible.
>>> Bear
>>
>>
>> Correct. I have been forced to throw out more and more specialised
>> classes in favor of more general ones to reduce the number of classes
>> in the system. The change I was refering to was to remove the Cell
>> class (Map has 2D array of Cells) and put the Cell data and methods in
>> Map instead. This will ofcourse greatly reduce the amount of needed
>> heap memory since the overhead for each Cell instance is quite big.
>
>
> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty good
> and complete in 0.6

I have a few thing that I'd like to add, but hopefully this won't
require much more memory and/or code.

> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
> start. Look around feature is cool.
>
> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.

There seems to be problems with GC on Nokia phones. Creature and Item
instances aren't reused, but rather recreated when a new (or the same)
level is created. This might cause memory fragmentation and perhaps slow
the game...

> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away (intended?)

I think I have made the AI to dumb and to much of a coward. If the
Player is to powerful, the AI defaults to flee. When the AI flees or
moves towards the player it doesn't make smart decisions when trying to
get past obstacles. I will improve this in the next version.

> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
> (nit pick)

Agreed that it should be the other way around. I'll see what I can do.

> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?

Sometimes you do not get any damage from a Spike trap if you're armour
protects you.

> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but given
> memory problems....

Yeah, it would be nice, but I do not think this will happen due to the
memory limitations.

> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.
>

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 4:52:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ABCGi wrote:
> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
>> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty
>> good and complete in 0.6
>>
>> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
>> start. Look around feature is cool.
>>
>> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
>> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
>> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
>> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
>> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away
>> (intended?)
>> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
>> (nit pick)
>> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?
>>
>> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but
>> given memory problems....
>>
>> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
>> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.
>
>
> * Monsters definitely either run away or won't chase/approach player (as
> far down as level 4). Even after melee. Even Walking Dead monster...
> * No message upon firing Wand of Poison (ie you poisoned the creature,
> you hit, you missed etc). You do receive a "No more charges" once it
> runs out.

Thanks. Added to my todo/bug list!

> * The version numbers on the web page for phones "Tested on:" is out of
> date or does it show the first version the phone worked on? ie Nokia
> 6610 (v.0.4.531) - nit pick

Oh, forgot to update that. I'll do that the next time a version is released.

> * The Check Version nokia command from game menu comes back Invalid File
> error - not important

As you said, not important. Still, I will give it a quick look.

> * Using wand of healing on self does not heal and does not give any
> message when a) just come down stairs OR b) first time wand is used OR
> c) failed use of wand (should say "You stuff it up")
>
> The no-HP recovery is great.

Yeah, I think it is much better. It adds an interesting strategic dimension.

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 8:45:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ABCGi wrote:
> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
>> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty
>> good and complete in 0.6
>>
>> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
>> start. Look around feature is cool.
>>
>> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
>> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
>> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
>> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
>> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away
>> (intended?)
>> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
>> (nit pick)
>> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?
>>
>> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but
>> given memory problems....
>>
>> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
>> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.
>
> * Monsters definitely either run away or won't chase/approach player (as
> far down as level 4). Even after melee. Even Walking Dead monster...
> * No message upon firing Wand of Poison (ie you poisoned the creature,
> you hit, you missed etc). You do receive a "No more charges" once it
> runs out.
> * The version numbers on the web page for phones "Tested on:" is out of
> date or does it show the first version the phone worked on? ie Nokia
> 6610 (v.0.4.531) - nit pick
> * The Check Version nokia command from game menu comes back Invalid File
> error - not important
> * Using wand of healing on self does not heal and does not give any
> message when a) just come down stairs OR b) first time wand is used OR
> c) failed use of wand (should say "You stuff it up")
>
> The no-HP recovery is great.

Just completed a full game (XP level 7), I play without saving/restoring
in order to keep response time high - therefore have to do long sittings :) 

* Did not get message of final pain (from trap maybe), just went
straight to death screen so wasn't sure what killed me.

Suggestions;
* Resources permitting, a weapon speed feature would be good. It would
not necessarily have to be spelled out but could work like the usual RPG
sharp vs blunt weapon better against fleshy vs bony monsters.
In this case the faster vs slower weapons better against
smaller/faster/flying vs stronger/slower/bigger monsters. This small
addition would assist in differentiating the weapons and lead to a bit
of golf clubbing for difficult monsters, which is a good thing if not
over done.
Something along those lines perhaps.

* On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?

* Without memorized spells the Wizard path seems harder, however the
inventory limit favours the wizard nicely and item scumming is possible,
except of course with the bug where no monster chases me.

* A WALK command of some kind would be nice - continue in straight line
till hit something.

I love playing Ranger with the bow and arrow!

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 8:45:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ABCGi wrote:
> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> ABCGi wrote:
>>
>>> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
>>> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty
>>> good and complete in 0.6
>>>
[snip old comments]
>
> Just completed a full game (XP level 7), I play without saving/restoring
> in order to keep response time high - therefore have to do long sittings :) 
>
> * Did not get message of final pain (from trap maybe), just went
> straight to death screen so wasn't sure what killed me.

This needs to be solved. I'll look into this.

> Suggestions;
> * Resources permitting, a weapon speed feature would be good. It would
> not necessarily have to be spelled out but could work like the usual RPG
> sharp vs blunt weapon better against fleshy vs bony monsters.
> In this case the faster vs slower weapons better against
> smaller/faster/flying vs stronger/slower/bigger monsters. This small
> addition would assist in differentiating the weapons and lead to a bit
> of golf clubbing for difficult monsters, which is a good thing if not
> over done.
> Something along those lines perhaps.

At the moment I only factor in attack and defense in combat. I'll see
what I can do with speed and weight as well.

> * On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
> XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?

Good point. I'll see what I can do.

> * Without memorized spells the Wizard path seems harder, however the
> inventory limit favours the wizard nicely and item scumming is possible,
> except of course with the bug where no monster chases me.

This is one of my top priorities. To make the wizard's life easier I
think I'll add the possibility to memorize spells from scrolls/books.

> * A WALK command of some kind would be nice - continue in straight line
> till hit something.
>
> I love playing Ranger with the bow and arrow!

To make it even more fun to play I will try to squeeze in an autotarget
or remember last target function too.

Thanks for all your valuable input! I have added everuthing to my TODO
list and I'll go through them as soon as I have a chance to work on
Dweller again.

Best regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 8:45:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ABCGi <abcgi@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4166378d$0$59392$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>...
>
> * On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
> XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?

One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
always the next level up. (Requiring more exp for later levels is
effected by reducing the exp reward for killing monsters
proportionally)
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 8:45:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jeff Lait wrote:
> ABCGi <abcgi@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4166378d$0$59392$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>...
>
>>* On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
>>XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?
>
>
> One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
> number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
> always the next level up. (Requiring more exp for later levels is
> effected by reducing the exp reward for killing monsters
> proportionally)

Isn't that harder for the player to understand? Then you can never be
sure of how many xp you will gain by slaying a specific type of monster.

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 8:45:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

<bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote:
>Jeff Lait wrote:
>>One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
>>number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
>>always the next level up.
[and reduce the XP awards for beasties]
>Isn't that harder for the player to understand? Then you can never be
>sure of how many xp you will gain by slaying a specific type of monster.

Angband both reduces the XP award _and_ has levels require increasing
amounts, which strikes me as the worst approach; but players seem to deal.

I'd prefer flat awards and increasing requirements, but with an option to
display XP as a percentage of the requirement.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Anonymous
October 8, 2004 10:20:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote in message news:<2snmfdF1mi444U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> Jeff Lait wrote:
> > ABCGi <abcgi@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4166378d$0$59392$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>...
> >
> >>* On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
> >>XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?
> >
> >
> > One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
> > number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
> > always the next level up. (Requiring more exp for later levels is
> > effected by reducing the exp reward for killing monsters
> > proportionally)
>
> Isn't that harder for the player to understand? Then you can never be
> sure of how many xp you will gain by slaying a specific type of monster.

How's that different than not being sure of how many exp you need to
get to the next level? And why is it important to know the exact XP a
grid bug gives you? So long as it gives XP, players will figure it
out.

Knowing the exact number of exp I get from monster Y is often less
useful than knowing how close I am to the next level. Given limitted
display space, it is the latter I'd focus on. As matter of fact, I
see any advantage to the player knowing a fixed xp/monster ratio.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
Anonymous
October 9, 2004 2:10:33 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström wrote:

> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> Björn Bergström wrote:
>>
*SNIP*
>>
>> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
>> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty
>> good and complete in 0.6
>
> I have a few thing that I'd like to add, but hopefully this won't
> require much more memory and/or code.
>
>> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
>> start. Look around feature is cool.
>>
>> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
>> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
>> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
>
> There seems to be problems with GC on Nokia phones. Creature and Item
> instances aren't reused, but rather recreated when a new (or the same)
> level is created. This might cause memory fragmentation and perhaps slow
> the game...

There have been versions of your game where the response time is great,
ie no noticeable delay.

>> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
>> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away
>> (intended?)
>
> I think I have made the AI to dumb and to much of a coward. If the
> Player is to powerful, the AI defaults to flee. When the AI flees or
> moves towards the player it doesn't make smart decisions when trying to
> get past obstacles. I will improve this in the next version.
>
>> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
>> (nit pick)
>
> Agreed that it should be the other way around. I'll see what I can do.
>
>> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?
>
> Sometimes you do not get any damage from a Spike trap if you're armour
> protects you.

Ah, perhaps a message "Your armour protects you" or some such?

>> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but
>> given memory problems....
>
> Yeah, it would be nice, but I do not think this will happen due to the
> memory limitations.

Fair enough, it wouldn't add much to the actual gameplay anyway.

>> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
>> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 9, 2004 2:18:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström wrote:

> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> ABCGi wrote:
>>
>>> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
>>> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty
>>> good and complete in 0.6
>>>
>>> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
>>> start. Look around feature is cool.
>>>
>>> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
>>> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
>>> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
>>> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
>>> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away
>>> (intended?)
>>> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
>>> (nit pick)
>>> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?
>>>
>>> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but
>>> given memory problems....
>>>
>>> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
>>> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.
>>
>> * Monsters definitely either run away or won't chase/approach player
>> (as far down as level 4). Even after melee. Even Walking Dead monster...
>> * No message upon firing Wand of Poison (ie you poisoned the creature,
>> you hit, you missed etc). You do receive a "No more charges" once it
>> runs out.
>
> Thanks. Added to my todo/bug list!
>
>> * The version numbers on the web page for phones "Tested on:" is out
>> of date or does it show the first version the phone worked on? ie
>> Nokia 6610 (v.0.4.531) - nit pick
>
> Oh, forgot to update that. I'll do that the next time a version is
> released.
>
>> * The Check Version nokia command from game menu comes back Invalid
>> File error - not important
>
> As you said, not important. Still, I will give it a quick look.
>
>> * Using wand of healing on self does not heal and does not give any
>> message when a) just come down stairs OR b) first time wand is used OR
>> c) failed use of wand (should say "You stuff it up")
>>
>> The no-HP recovery is great.
>
> Yeah, I think it is much better. It adds an interesting strategic
> dimension.

I had a great time in a cafe today with 3 hit points left trying to
avoid the stationary monsters looking for a healing potion, but I
stepped on a trap (I think).

* After you fix the AI, I would add/change one monster type that always
guards doors/doorways and never chases the PC. For this monster the PC
needs to melee, run past, use arrows or magic, or avoid going through
the door. A situation which often comes up when you have low hit points.

* Perhaps one other type that almost always runs away and is fast,
requiring range weapons or a strategic approach to corner. Perhaps give
the monster a missile weapon to be really nasty? So that if you take a
break from chasing it or it gets a step ahead of you if fires (ie avoids
melee distance first, then if 2 squares away will shoot). This would be
a good type of monster to make the ranger and wizard more valuable, and
the walking slow tank less so.

I have not got too deep on this version yet so forgive me if I ask for
anything that is already there.

Dweller is getting better and better, thanks a lot!

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 9, 2004 2:18:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ABCGi wrote:
> Björn Bergström wrote:
>
>> ABCGi wrote:
>>
>>> ABCGi wrote:
>>>
[snip suggestions]
>
> I had a great time in a cafe today with 3 hit points left trying to
> avoid the stationary monsters looking for a healing potion, but I
> stepped on a trap (I think).
>
> * After you fix the AI, I would add/change one monster type that always
> guards doors/doorways and never chases the PC. For this monster the PC
> needs to melee, run past, use arrows or magic, or avoid going through
> the door. A situation which often comes up when you have low hit points.
>
> * Perhaps one other type that almost always runs away and is fast,
> requiring range weapons or a strategic approach to corner. Perhaps give
> the monster a missile weapon to be really nasty? So that if you take a
> break from chasing it or it gets a step ahead of you if fires (ie avoids
> melee distance first, then if 2 squares away will shoot). This would be
> a good type of monster to make the ranger and wizard more valuable, and
> the walking slow tank less so.

I will give the AI an overhaul and use some of the suggestions in Ray
Dillinger's AI articles. The AI's described above shouldn't be that hard
to implement.

> I have not got too deep on this version yet so forgive me if I ask for
> anything that is already there.

I try to play it myself when going to and from work, and I find the game
too hard at the moment. The Goblin King will be encountered too deep and
the monsters are too hard. I think I'll have to compact the dungeon a
bit depthwise and add some more healing potions/scrolls/wands (once I
get them to work properly). Perhaps also fountains of healing or
similar. Balancing the game is one of the hardest things. The problem
with balance is that you constantly have to rebalance the game when you
add new items and monsters or make changes in the underlying game
logic... well, I guess it is always an interative process.

> Dweller is getting better and better, thanks a lot!
>

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 11, 2004 12:39:18 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jeff Lait wrote:
> Björn Bergström <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote in message news:<2snmfdF1mi444U1@uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>Jeff Lait wrote:
>>
>>>ABCGi <abcgi@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4166378d$0$59392$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>...
>>>
>>>
>>>>* On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
>>>>XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?
>>>
>>>
>>>One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
>>>number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
>>>always the next level up. (Requiring more exp for later levels is
>>>effected by reducing the exp reward for killing monsters
>>>proportionally)
>>
>>Isn't that harder for the player to understand? Then you can never be
>>sure of how many xp you will gain by slaying a specific type of monster.
>
>
> How's that different than not being sure of how many exp you need to
> get to the next level? And why is it important to know the exact XP a
> grid bug gives you? So long as it gives XP, players will figure it
> out.
>
> Knowing the exact number of exp I get from monster Y is often less
> useful than knowing how close I am to the next level. Given limitted
> display space, it is the latter I'd focus on. As matter of fact, I
> see any advantage to the player knowing a fixed xp/monster ratio.

You're right, this has it's advantages as well. I guess this is a matter
of taste. I will leave this unaltered in Dweller for now (there are more
urgent things to improve).

Regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 12, 2004 5:07:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström wrote:

> Jeff Lait wrote:
>
>> Björn Bergström <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote in
>> message news:<2snmfdF1mi444U1@uni-berlin.de>...
>>
>>> Jeff Lait wrote:
>>>
>>>> ABCGi <abcgi@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:<4166378d$0$59392$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>...
>>>>
>>>>> * On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the
>>>>> current XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?
>>>>
>>>> One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
>>>> number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
>>>> always the next level up. (Requiring more exp for later levels is
>>>> effected by reducing the exp reward for killing monsters
>>>> proportionally)
>>>
>>> Isn't that harder for the player to understand? Then you can never be
>>> sure of how many xp you will gain by slaying a specific type of monster.
>>
>> How's that different than not being sure of how many exp you need to
>> get to the next level? And why is it important to know the exact XP a
>> grid bug gives you? So long as it gives XP, players will figure it
>> out.
>>
>> Knowing the exact number of exp I get from monster Y is often less
>> useful than knowing how close I am to the next level. Given limitted
>> display space, it is the latter I'd focus on. As matter of fact, I
>> see any advantage to the player knowing a fixed xp/monster ratio.
>
> You're right, this has it's advantages as well. I guess this is a matter
> of taste. I will leave this unaltered in Dweller for now (there are more
> urgent things to improve).

It's the same in some roguelikes where the XP for an easy monster
steadily gets lower the higher your level. Both ways seem to work ok, as
you say, a matter of taste - but you do have room on the display for the
required amount of XP as well as the current.

* I love the DD idea posted elsewhere about having the XP gained of next
level percentage shown! Character screen - Level 7/457 (78%), ie 78% of
next level, much more useful than showing (586) and leaving the player
try to estimate the % left

* I would like to see a thing in brackets that shows the damage made on
a monster (-3hp) as this information is gleanable anyway by using look.

* You could include (10xp) on the death message as well if you like.

The hp or xp could be left off for space.

* Perhaps also on the character screen the very original "base" score
for Att Def etc so 15/12 (10) indicating that the player has added 2
Attack points during level ups from the start of the game and has a
weapon/rage that adds to +3.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 12, 2004 5:08:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström wrote:
> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> Björn Bergström wrote:
>>
>>> ABCGi wrote:
>>>
>>>> ABCGi wrote:
>>>>
> [snip suggestions]
>
>> I had a great time in a cafe today with 3 hit points left trying to
>> avoid the stationary monsters looking for a healing potion, but I
>> stepped on a trap (I think).
>>
>> * After you fix the AI, I would add/change one monster type that
>> always guards doors/doorways and never chases the PC. For this monster
>> the PC needs to melee, run past, use arrows or magic, or avoid going
>> through the door. A situation which often comes up when you have low
>> hit points.
>>
>> * Perhaps one other type that almost always runs away and is fast,
>> requiring range weapons or a strategic approach to corner. Perhaps
>> give the monster a missile weapon to be really nasty? So that if you
>> take a break from chasing it or it gets a step ahead of you if fires
>> (ie avoids melee distance first, then if 2 squares away will shoot).
>> This would be a good type of monster to make the ranger and wizard
>> more valuable, and the walking slow tank less so.
>
> I will give the AI an overhaul and use some of the suggestions in Ray
> Dillinger's AI articles. The AI's described above shouldn't be that hard
> to implement.

MONSTER CHASE BUG
One important point about the monster AI bug where they don't chase -
when I start a new game with monsters on the screen at the very start
they behave properly and chase me. Every other generated monster that I
come across does not chase. I'd say the bug lies somewhere there.

>> I have not got too deep on this version yet so forgive me if I ask for
>> anything that is already there.
>
> I try to play it myself when going to and from work, and I find the game
> too hard at the moment. The Goblin King will be encountered too deep and
> the monsters are too hard. I think I'll have to compact the dungeon a
> bit depthwise and add some more healing potions/scrolls/wands (once I
> get them to work properly). Perhaps also fountains of healing or
> similar. Balancing the game is one of the hardest things. The problem
> with balance is that you constantly have to rebalance the game when you
> add new items and monsters or make changes in the underlying game
> logic... well, I guess it is always an interative process.

DON'T DUMB AI THOUGH
Ok but don't make AI dumber to make it easier, unless of course the
monster is meant to be dumb. I would favour making the PC more powerful
at later levels as a balancer. A great way to do this is with specific
class awards ala ADOM. Some ideas, take or leave;

CLASS REWARDS/ABILITIES

* The Wizard: should start with an automatic fire attack, launched
through the bow and arrow target sequence. He/She should not be able to
use bow and arrow? Then on level up this automatic attack increases in
power. However the automatic magic use is always +1 higher than using
the equivalent scroll - so using scrolls is preferable first?

* The Wizard: due to his skill should have a chance on not destroying
the scroll upon use? This could increase as s/he goes up levels? This
might make an interesting balance between a) do I use scroll or b) do I
use automatic cast. I assume the higher the MP the higher the damage etc?

* The Ranger: as leveling up increasing chance of arrows not destroyed
on use. At certain level fires two arrows (or +1 more arrows than
current speed) instead of one and can use 2 weapons at same time.

POSSIBLE BUG: I was playing ranger and adding speed, he seemed to upon
moving quickly be firing two arrows (ie two attacks came up) but only
one arrow was used up from quiver.

* The Warrior: at certain levels increased chance of ENORMOUS STRIKE
which does double damage, at later levels a DEATH STRIKE increased
chance of a fatal attack to any non-boss monster.

CLASS DIFFICULTY COMPARISON
The Wizard seems to need the most help which is why I've given him/her
more, but starting the wizard with a wand would probably help too. The
Ranger, whilst s/he has arrows seems to be the most powerful character
but they may just be because no monster chase me!

>> Dweller is getting better and better, thanks a lot!

SIMPLE CLASS REWARDS
I think something simple, that is different to each class, that
increases per level up would be a nice distinguishing touch for each
class. To then add an increasing special ability (but something simple)
at say level 3/6/9/12 etc (ala ADOM) would be a nice bonus too, but you
may have practical limits.

XP SCUMMING
I've played several more full games and only managed about dungeon depth
4 (call it dungeon depth not dungeon level to save confusion?) and xp
level 7. However I will point out, difficulty wise, it is possible to
return to the easier levels indefinitely and scum up xp levels. When the
game balance is better I would recommend not allowing xp gained from a
dungeon depth = xp level - 3 or some such formula.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 12, 2004 6:41:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Hi,

I've been playing Dweller 0.6 on a couple of phones and been greatly
enjoying it.

> * I love the DD idea posted elsewhere about having the XP gained of next
> level percentage shown! Character screen - Level 7/457 (78%), ie 78% of
> next level, much more useful than showing (586) and leaving the player
> try to estimate the % left
>
> * I would like to see a thing in brackets that shows the damage made on
> a monster (-3hp) as this information is gleanable anyway by using look.
>
> * You could include (10xp) on the death message as well if you like.

I think all the above are very good ideas.

Some other things I've thought of/noticed:

1) the look around feature is really good, but could it also display
the text description of the critter you're looking at? Doesn't
actually affect the mechanics, but at first it is pretty hard to
remember if a wolf is yellow 'c' or an orange 'c'... (or whatever they
are!)

2) traps can be very awkward. In one game I kept detecting them; I had
a very high magic score, does this help? In other games I only found
them by stepping on them, and since you don't regenerate HP this makes
them pretty dangerous :-(

3) if you do find a trap, there doesn't seem to be a way to disable
them. Useful if you find one in a corridor and there is no way past
it.

4) I love the level generation. For a "mini-rogue" this is really
good, especially the wilderness top level. I also think the general
dungeon creation is very good, but then maybe I've been playing too
much rogue/hack and get impressed by anything that isn't nine boxes
and some corridors! I've also had one level that was just a corridor
forming a ring - very cool! (I couldn't find a down stairs on this
btw, so had to go back up and come down to another level - is that
intentional?)

5) The Bad News. I keep losing games, and I don't just mean getting
clubbed to death. I've tried the game on an Sony Ericsson S700 and a
P900 and on both it just sometimes locks up. I have to quit the Java
VM and when I restart it ignores trying to load the save game or in
one case it locked up every time I tried to load; I assume the save
files are getting corrupted but I'm not actually saving when it hangs
so maybe not. I don't mind too much at the moment; it's clearly in
development and it's new enough that just playing for 10 minutes or
the first few levels is interesting. Hopefully this will improve as
the game develops.

6) The difficuly level is odd compared to other roguelikes I've
played. Because your HP doesn't recover on its own, merely surviving
individual fights isn't the problem. On the other hand, the first game
I played, I didn't realise I had to equip my armour, weapon etc and I
still killed every creature in the first level! Also the number of
items in the second level (first proper dungeon) is very high. Is it
an abandoned warehouse? :-) I think you typically find one of most of
the non-magical items in this level alone. Might be better to reduce
the number of items so you have to go down several more levels before
you become fully equipped... One of the things I like about roguelikes
is the randomness, and not knowing when you're going to get item x or
y.

7) Any chance you can make the number of hit points restored by each
potion or scroll somewhat larger? Following from my previous point,
I'd prefer that to making more potions available. I also like the
previously suggested idea of having fountains too. That would be
great, but since they'd be so useful, probably best if they were
uncommon.

That's all. I've prattled on long enough.
The only other I'd say, is that I've really enjoyed playing it so far,
so thanks for the effort.

Best regards
Roberto/.
Anonymous
October 12, 2004 8:11:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

BUG
Got down to Dungeon Depth 5, and got crash trying to go down to Dungeon
Depth 6. Saved only once on depth 5, had lots of items, ranger xp level
8. Get same crash upon reloading game and trying again. Perhaps saving
chewed up too much memory or depth 6 plus PC took too much memory?
Perhaps pre check for index out of bounds?

Application error: java/lang/ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException

OTHER STUFF/SUGGESTIONS

* You do say "Dungeon depth" so please excuse my earlier report.

* Poison does not seem to be a very effective weapon against monsters? I
guess it takes the edge off them, do they become weaker over time?

* A spell/scroll/wand/attack that immobilises for a time would be good,
the idea being you stun your enemy, switch to your big slow damaging
weapon and chop them up before they recover. Or stand off and use
arrows. This could be interesting with multiple monsters, stun one to go
yourself time with another.

* A higher armour opponent (like ADOM) that requires the bigger more
brutally damaging weapons (his armour absorbs your strike) ? My point
with these last two is that I tend to use the speedier weapons/armour -
there does not seem to be enough balance in favour of using the big
heavy weapons?

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 12, 2004 8:11:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ABCGi wrote:
> BUG
> Got down to Dungeon Depth 5, and got crash trying to go down to Dungeon
> Depth 6. Saved only once on depth 5, had lots of items, ranger xp level
> 8. Get same crash upon reloading game and trying again. Perhaps saving
> chewed up too much memory or depth 6 plus PC took too much memory?
> Perhaps pre check for index out of bounds?
>
> Application error: java/lang/ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException

Whoops! Not a very nice one. I'll have a look at what might cause this.

I'm actually planning to scrap yet another OO part of the game (Map
contains array of Cells in favor of Map contains array of bytes). This
will reduce codesize and memory footprint. I also found some interesting
optimization tricks that might speed things up:

* synchronized methods are the slowest, since an object lock has to be
obtained
* interface methods are the next slowest
* instance methods are in the middle
* final methods are faster
* static methods are fastest
* the fastest method calls are those to final static methods.

I wasn't really aware of this and I hope it might improve speed a little
bit.

> OTHER STUFF/SUGGESTIONS
>
> * You do say "Dungeon depth" so please excuse my earlier report.

Sure :-)

> * Poison does not seem to be a very effective weapon against monsters? I
> guess it takes the edge off them, do they become weaker over time?

Poison makes the creature weaker but it doesn't affect them over time.
At the moment there is no system implemented for timelimited effects.
All effects in the game are instant or permanent.

> * A spell/scroll/wand/attack that immobilises for a time would be good,
> the idea being you stun your enemy, switch to your big slow damaging
> weapon and chop them up before they recover. Or stand off and use
> arrows. This could be interesting with multiple monsters, stun one to go
> yourself time with another.
>
> * A higher armour opponent (like ADOM) that requires the bigger more
> brutally damaging weapons (his armour absorbs your strike) ? My point
> with these last two is that I tend to use the speedier weapons/armour -
> there does not seem to be enough balance in favour of using the big
> heavy weapons?

Thank you for all your input. I have added all of this to my TODO/Ideas
list. Hopefully I will get a chance to implement some of it soon.

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 13, 2004 2:44:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström wrote:
> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> BUG
>> Got down to Dungeon Depth 5, and got crash trying to go down to
>> Dungeon Depth 6. Saved only once on depth 5, had lots of items, ranger
>> xp level 8. Get same crash upon reloading game and trying again.
>> Perhaps saving chewed up too much memory or depth 6 plus PC took too
>> much memory? Perhaps pre check for index out of bounds?
>>
>> Application error: java/lang/ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException
>
> Whoops! Not a very nice one. I'll have a look at what might cause this.

I will try to get that low again without saving and let you know if it
still occurs.

> I'm actually planning to scrap yet another OO part of the game (Map
> contains array of Cells in favor of Map contains array of bytes). This
> will reduce codesize and memory footprint. I also found some interesting
> optimization tricks that might speed things up:
>
> * synchronized methods are the slowest, since an object lock has to be
> obtained
> * interface methods are the next slowest
> * instance methods are in the middle
> * final methods are faster
> * static methods are fastest
> * the fastest method calls are those to final static methods.

Hey nice list, I've saved for looking up later, might even put it up on
the CodeMonkey site.

> I wasn't really aware of this and I hope it might improve speed a little
> bit.
>
>> OTHER STUFF/SUGGESTIONS
>>
>> * You do say "Dungeon depth" so please excuse my earlier report.
>
> Sure :-)
>
>> * Poison does not seem to be a very effective weapon against monsters?
>> I guess it takes the edge off them, do they become weaker over time?
>
> Poison makes the creature weaker but it doesn't affect them over time.
> At the moment there is no system implemented for timelimited effects.
> All effects in the game are instant or permanent.

Well it does not make them very weak, it only seems to take a few points
off. Under those circumstances with monsters chasing me I think I would
be very unlike to choose poison tactically, mayhap on success it should
halve the monsters current scores but do no damage? As opposed to fire
that does damage but does not effect scores.

>> * A spell/scroll/wand/attack that immobilises for a time would be
>> good, the idea being you stun your enemy, switch to your big slow
>> damaging weapon and chop them up before they recover. Or stand off and
>> use arrows. This could be interesting with multiple monsters, stun one
>> to go yourself time with another.
>>
>> * A higher armour opponent (like ADOM) that requires the bigger more
>> brutally damaging weapons (his armour absorbs your strike) ? My point
>> with these last two is that I tend to use the speedier weapons/armour
>> - there does not seem to be enough balance in favour of using the big
>> heavy weapons?
>
> Thank you for all your input. I have added all of this to my TODO/Ideas
> list. Hopefully I will get a chance to implement some of it soon.

Your welcome, thanks for the game. I like the really slow undead, just
watched "Dawn of the Dead" - inspired - however zombies were quite fast
in that film! I also found that, unlike many RL's, I had to start using
all my scrolls and wands as a Ranger to keep going deeper rather than
just hording them and dying with lots of unused stuff.

Final (you wish!) Suggestions/Ideas - take or leave;

* Breakable weapons/armour - rare but there to add a little spice, makes
the teleport more useful too.

* A teleporting monster. Teleports in and out of battle every few turns.

* An invisible monster, until it attacks you or you accidentally move
into it and attack it.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 13, 2004 7:48:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Ok I think I'm done testing 0.6, the monsters not chasing is becoming a
bit dull, I'll wait to the next release when hopefully these three
important bugs are fixed in Nokia 6610 (if only these three are fixed
the game will be great!);

* Monsters will chase me - I had some monsters chase me on dungeon depth
5 straight after coming down stairs but that's it. Troll once got really
hurt and seemed to start coming after me too. Almost all monsters either
stand still or run away (probably a combination of two bugs).

* No application errors round depth 6 - I got to depth 6 without saving
in one game and died no problem, then had application error in another
game without saving going down stairs to depth 6. So intermittent bug
going down stairs round about depth 6.

* Increasingly slow response time the further into game - particularly
after saving and a bit after selecting New Game from menu, due to heap
memory problems?

OTHER BUGS

* You take off armour or ring or amulet and current hit points (when
damaged already) go down by 1, they then go up by one when you put it
back on?

* I put on a speed ring +1 and all of a sudden my Ranger was firing two
shots instead of one for every enemy, even though speed total was only
11. Sometimes three shots. Still only using one ammo from quiver.

* Can use shield with 2 handed weapons.

FINAL IDEAS

* Instead of having fire missile at self damage PC (which I by accident
did and killed myself with 8 hit points left!!!) have it fire at last
known target, or closest target, or else say no closest target.

* A missile firing monster and/or a monster with a polearm that can
reach two squares. Perhaps PC can use such a polearm too?

* A pet (to use heal on) resources permitting (low priority).

NOTES

Loved the cave troll, killed him with fire arrows. An Orc Berserker
killed me on depth 6, he was backed up by a Wraith! I was out of arrows
so had to go hand to hand.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 14, 2004 4:41:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ABCGi wrote:
> Ok I think I'm done testing 0.6, the monsters not chasing is becoming a
> bit dull, I'll wait to the next release when hopefully these three
> important bugs are fixed in Nokia 6610 (if only these three are fixed
> the game will be great!);
>
[snip ideas, bugs, other issues]
>

Thank you once more! I have a huge list of things to do and I'm really
looking forward to the next codingsession (when I find time for it :-/).
I've got lots of feedback from other players as well and I'm really
motivated at the moment.

Regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 14, 2004 6:28:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote in message news:<2t73heF1s3c3nU1@uni-berlin.de>...
> ABCGi wrote:
> > Ok I think I'm done testing 0.6, the monsters not chasing is becoming a
> > bit dull, I'll wait to the next release when hopefully these three
> > important bugs are fixed in Nokia 6610 (if only these three are fixed
> > the game will be great!);
> >
> [snip ideas, bugs, other issues]
> >
>
> Thank you once more! I have a huge list of things to do and I'm really
> looking forward to the next codingsession (when I find time for it :-/).
> I've got lots of feedback from other players as well and I'm really
> motivated at the moment.

Good! I'm looking forward to the next version :-)

A couple more things to add to your bug list:

1) Sometimes when picking up an item, going to the inventory screen
shows it as already equipped. Things usually go wrong with this. For
instance, if this happens with a metal helm, then the PC will be
wearing the helm and an existing cap or whatever.

2) I've seen the double-arrow issue a lot: seems to happen when my PC
gets ring or amulet of speed. Is this intentional or a bug?

3) Nitpicking: I like the "fumbles" and similar messages but they
apply to all monsters. I don't think a jelly should fumble...

On a happier note, I had a great suprise in my last game. Standing
next to some jellies and suddenly my character was cloned and the
clone starting attacking me! I almost dropped my phone :-) Nice
feature!

Regards
Roberto/.
Anonymous
October 15, 2004 5:06:21 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Roberto Nerici wrote:
> Björn Bergström <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote in message news:<2t73heF1s3c3nU1@uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>ABCGi wrote:
>>
>>>Ok I think I'm done testing 0.6, the monsters not chasing is becoming a
>>>bit dull, I'll wait to the next release when hopefully these three
>>>important bugs are fixed in Nokia 6610 (if only these three are fixed
>>>the game will be great!);
>>>
>>
>> [snip ideas, bugs, other issues]
>>
>>Thank you once more! I have a huge list of things to do and I'm really
>>looking forward to the next codingsession (when I find time for it :-/).
>>I've got lots of feedback from other players as well and I'm really
>>motivated at the moment.
>
>
> Good! I'm looking forward to the next version :-)
>
> A couple more things to add to your bug list:
>
> 1) Sometimes when picking up an item, going to the inventory screen
> shows it as already equipped. Things usually go wrong with this. For
> instance, if this happens with a metal helm, then the PC will be
> wearing the helm and an existing cap or whatever.

Strange bug. I haven't had this reported before. So you actually see two
items of the same kind as equipped?

> 2) I've seen the double-arrow issue a lot: seems to happen when my PC
> gets ring or amulet of speed. Is this intentional or a bug?

I will try to replicate this bug. Can you confirm that it doesn't have
something to do with the bow (ie wielding a longbow vs shortbow).
Shooting an arrow with a longbow does extra damage. Perhaps that is the
source of the mixup?

> 3) Nitpicking: I like the "fumbles" and similar messages but they
> apply to all monsters. I don't think a jelly should fumble...
>
> On a happier note, I had a great suprise in my last game. Standing
> next to some jellies and suddenly my character was cloned and the
> clone starting attacking me! I almost dropped my phone :-) Nice
> feature!

Wow! Talk about emergent behaviour!!!!! This is one of the best things
that has happened since Dweller was released! I actually programmed the
jellies to clone *themselves*, not things in their surroundings. Perhaps
I'll keep this feature :-)

> Regards
> Roberto/.

Regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 15, 2004 10:46:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Roberto Nerici wrote:
> Björn Bergström <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote in message news:<2t73heF1s3c3nU1@uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>ABCGi wrote:
>>
>>>Ok I think I'm done testing 0.6, the monsters not chasing is becoming a
>>>bit dull, I'll wait to the next release when hopefully these three
>>>important bugs are fixed in Nokia 6610 (if only these three are fixed
>>>the game will be great!);
>>>
>>
>> [snip ideas, bugs, other issues]
>>
>>Thank you once more! I have a huge list of things to do and I'm really
>>looking forward to the next codingsession (when I find time for it :-/).
>>I've got lots of feedback from other players as well and I'm really
>>motivated at the moment.
>
> Good! I'm looking forward to the next version :-)

YAY!

> A couple more things to add to your bug list:
>
> 1) Sometimes when picking up an item, going to the inventory screen
> shows it as already equipped. Things usually go wrong with this. For
> instance, if this happens with a metal helm, then the PC will be
> wearing the helm and an existing cap or whatever.
>
> 2) I've seen the double-arrow issue a lot: seems to happen when my PC
> gets ring or amulet of speed. Is this intentional or a bug?
>
> 3) Nitpicking: I like the "fumbles" and similar messages but they
> apply to all monsters. I don't think a jelly should fumble...

Then also the Walking Dead should not "die" :) 

> On a happier note, I had a great suprise in my last game. Standing
> next to some jellies and suddenly my character was cloned and the
> clone starting attacking me! I almost dropped my phone :-) Nice
> feature!

heh. I attacked a jackal on the top wilderness level that was actually
standing inside the wall, which was revealed when it died!

I love the variety of tougher monsters now, the vampires, Vampire Lords,
Trolls, Wraiths are all pretty nasty around depth 6.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
Anonymous
October 15, 2004 10:46:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ABCGi wrote:
> Roberto Nerici wrote:
>
>> Björn Bergström <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote in
>> message news:<2t73heF1s3c3nU1@uni-berlin.de>...
>>
>>> ABCGi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ok I think I'm done testing 0.6, the monsters not chasing is
>>>> becoming a bit dull, I'll wait to the next release when hopefully
>>>> these three important bugs are fixed in Nokia 6610 (if only these
>>>> three are fixed the game will be great!);
>>>>
>>>
>>> [snip ideas, bugs, other issues]
>>>
>>> Thank you once more! I have a huge list of things to do and I'm
>>> really looking forward to the next codingsession (when I find time
>>> for it :-/). I've got lots of feedback from other players as well and
>>> I'm really motivated at the moment.
>>
>>
>> Good! I'm looking forward to the next version :-)
>
>
> YAY!
>
>> A couple more things to add to your bug list:
>>
>> 1) Sometimes when picking up an item, going to the inventory screen
>> shows it as already equipped. Things usually go wrong with this. For
>> instance, if this happens with a metal helm, then the PC will be
>> wearing the helm and an existing cap or whatever.
>>
>> 2) I've seen the double-arrow issue a lot: seems to happen when my PC
>> gets ring or amulet of speed. Is this intentional or a bug?
>>
>> 3) Nitpicking: I like the "fumbles" and similar messages but they
>> apply to all monsters. I don't think a jelly should fumble...
>
>
> Then also the Walking Dead should not "die" :) 

Right. Added to todo.

>> On a happier note, I had a great suprise in my last game. Standing
>> next to some jellies and suddenly my character was cloned and the
>> clone starting attacking me! I almost dropped my phone :-) Nice
>> feature!
>
>
> heh. I attacked a jackal on the top wilderness level that was actually
> standing inside the wall, which was revealed when it died!

Will be fixed in the next version.

> I love the variety of tougher monsters now, the vampires, Vampire Lords,
> Trolls, Wraiths are all pretty nasty around depth 6.

Yeah, they are pretty tough! I need to add even more variety, both in
terms of monsters and in items. I think my big todo list will solve this :-)

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
Anonymous
October 19, 2004 11:10:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development,rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Björn Bergström wrote:
> ABCGi wrote:

*SNIP*

>> heh. I attacked a jackal on the top wilderness level that was actually
>> standing inside the wall, which was revealed when it died!
>
> Will be fixed in the next version.

I've also had similar bits of wall inside the dungeon that I can walk
through.

>> I love the variety of tougher monsters now, the vampires, Vampire
>> Lords, Trolls, Wraiths are all pretty nasty around depth 6.
>
> Yeah, they are pretty tough! I need to add even more variety, both in
> terms of monsters and in items. I think my big todo list will solve this
> :-)

My deaths so far have been equally distributed between;
A) Tough monsters fought hand to hand cuz ran out of arrows.
B) Spike traps taking off my last couple of hit points while searching
desperately for health.
C) The bug monster - either loss of last hit point when switching
armour, or crash when climbing the stairs to level 6 or 7 (dropping all
items and equipment seems to help)

I find the monster and item variety quite rewarding at this stage. How
about a portal around half way through the adventure that requires the
PC to be naked to pass through (ie has to drop all items) - to add
interest back into item hunting midway through?

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
!