[Announce] Dweller 0.6 released

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Version 0.6 of the cellphone roguelike Dweller has just been
released. Main changes/additions are the basics of a quest system with a
simple test quest and a new wilderness level above the dungeon.

Full release notes here:
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller

Get the new version here:
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jar
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jad

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
 
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Björn Bergström wrote:
> Version 0.6 of the cellphone roguelike Dweller has just been
> released. Main changes/additions are the basics of a quest system with a
> simple test quest and a new wilderness level above the dungeon.
>
> Full release notes here:
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller
>
> Get the new version here:
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jar
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jad

Lovin it, will try it soon...

Will keep previous version in case of problems... you may want to
consider keeping an old "Last Known Working/Stable For All Phones
Version" at some stage later on? I spose we are not out of beta yet
anyway though...

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <========= VOTE DO GOODER CAP. SET =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
 
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ABCGi wrote:
> Björn Bergström wrote:
>
>> Version 0.6 of the cellphone roguelike Dweller has just been
>> released. Main changes/additions are the basics of a quest system with a
>> simple test quest and a new wilderness level above the dungeon.
>>
>> Full release notes here:
>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller
>>
>> Get the new version here:
>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jar
>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jad
>
>
> Lovin it, will try it soon...
>
> Will keep previous version in case of problems... you may want to
> consider keeping an old "Last Known Working/Stable For All Phones
> Version" at some stage later on? I spose we are not out of beta yet
> anyway though...

I'm actually storing old version online (although well hidden).The old
version can be found here:

http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.613/Dweller.jar
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.622/Dweller.jar
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.828/Dweller.jar
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.829/Dweller.jar
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.905/Dweller.jar
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.910/Dweller.jar
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.912/Dweller.jar
http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.920/Dweller.jar

I'm afraid I don't have older versions as easily accessible as the ones
above. I'm actually not using CVS yet (I only take regular backups of my
work) but I plan on doing so as soon as possible. CVS makes version
handling so much easier...

Regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
 
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Björn Bergström wrote:
> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> Björn Bergström wrote:
>>
>>> Version 0.6 of the cellphone roguelike Dweller has just been
>>> released. Main changes/additions are the basics of a quest system with a
>>> simple test quest and a new wilderness level above the dungeon.
>>>
>>> Full release notes here:
>>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller
>>>
>>> Get the new version here:
>>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jar
>>> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/Dweller.jad
>>
>>
>>
>> Lovin it, will try it soon...
>>
>> Will keep previous version in case of problems... you may want to
>> consider keeping an old "Last Known Working/Stable For All Phones
>> Version" at some stage later on? I spose we are not out of beta yet
>> anyway though...
>
>
> I'm actually storing old version online (although well hidden).The old
> version can be found here:
>
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.613/Dweller.jar
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.622/Dweller.jar
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.828/Dweller.jar
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.829/Dweller.jar
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.905/Dweller.jar
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.910/Dweller.jar
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.912/Dweller.jar
> http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller/0.5.920/Dweller.jar
>
> I'm afraid I don't have older versions as easily accessible as the ones
> above. I'm actually not using CVS yet (I only take regular backups of my
> work) but I plan on doing so as soon as possible. CVS makes version
> handling so much easier...
>
> Regards,
> Björn Bergström
> roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
> dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]

Cool, I only ever need the last working version and I keep that backed
up in case the new one I install does not work.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
 
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Was it just plain madness? Or maybe ABCGi wrote the truth:
> Björn Bergström wrote:
>> ABCGi wrote:
>>> Björn Bergström wrote:
>> roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
>> dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
> Cool, I only ever need the last working version and I keep that backed
> up in case the new one I install does not work.

Did anyone manage to run Dweller on a Java-enabled Siemens? I'm wondering in
particular wether it would run on a SL45i...

regards,
Kornel Kisilewicz
 
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Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Was it just plain madness? Or maybe ABCGi wrote the truth:
>
>>Björn Bergström wrote:
>>
>>>ABCGi wrote:
>>>
>>>>Björn Bergström wrote:
>>>
>>>roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
>>>dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
>>
>>Cool, I only ever need the last working version and I keep that backed
>>up in case the new one I install does not work.
>
>
> Did anyone manage to run Dweller on a Java-enabled Siemens? I'm wondering in
> particular wether it would run on a SL45i...

I have received reports of Dweller running on Siemens phones and I'm
pretty confident that the game will run on an SL45i. It all boils down
to JAR size limit and heap space. The current JAR size is about 45kb,
and most lowend/older phones have a 64kb limit. You will loose some of
the gameplay since the phone is monochrome, but it would definatley
still be playable. Please give it a try and let me know if it works.

> regards,
> Kornel Kisilewicz

Regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
 
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Uzytkownik "Björn Bergström" <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org>
napisal w wiadomosci news:2sc998F1irqlrU1@uni-berlin.de...
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> > Did anyone manage to run Dweller on a Java-enabled Siemens? I'm
wondering in
> > particular wether it would run on a SL45i...
>
> I have received reports of Dweller running on Siemens phones and I'm
> pretty confident that the game will run on an SL45i. It all boils down
> to JAR size limit and heap space. The current JAR size is about 45kb,
> and most lowend/older phones have a 64kb limit. You will loose some of
> the gameplay since the phone is monochrome, but it would definatley
> still be playable. Please give it a try and let me know if it works.

Unfortunately it doesn't :(. I got the "Out of heap memory!" message after a
few seconds of loading. I wonder if anything can be done about that. But I
doubt it :(.

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
 
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Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Uzytkownik "Björn Bergström" <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org>
> napisal w wiadomosci news:2sc998F1irqlrU1@uni-berlin.de...
>
>>Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>>
>>>Did anyone manage to run Dweller on a Java-enabled Siemens? I'm
>
> wondering in
>
>>>particular wether it would run on a SL45i...
>>
>>I have received reports of Dweller running on Siemens phones and I'm
>>pretty confident that the game will run on an SL45i. It all boils down
>>to JAR size limit and heap space. The current JAR size is about 45kb,
>>and most lowend/older phones have a 64kb limit. You will loose some of
>>the gameplay since the phone is monochrome, but it would definatley
>>still be playable. Please give it a try and let me know if it works.
>
>
> Unfortunately it doesn't :(. I got the "Out of heap memory!" message after a
> few seconds of loading. I wonder if anything can be done about that. But I
> doubt it :(.

I've seen figures of only 16kb of heap space memory for the SL45i.
Unfortunately Dweller takes a bit more than that at the moment. I have a
final trick that would reduce the memory footprint even more, but that
would make my code even less OO.

> regards,
> Kornel Kisielewicz

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
 
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Björn Bergström wrote:

>
> I've seen figures of only 16kb of heap space memory for the SL45i.
> Unfortunately Dweller takes a bit more than that at the moment. I have a
> final trick that would reduce the memory footprint even more, but that
> would make my code even less OO.

OO-ness is not a virtue in an environment with limited memory.
Virtual method tables can become expensive even though invisible.
Bear
 
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Ray Dillinger wrote:
> Björn Bergström wrote:
>
>>
>> I've seen figures of only 16kb of heap space memory for the SL45i.
>> Unfortunately Dweller takes a bit more than that at the moment. I have
>> a final trick that would reduce the memory footprint even more, but
>> that would make my code even less OO.
>
>
> OO-ness is not a virtue in an environment with limited memory.
> Virtual method tables can become expensive even though invisible.
> Bear
>

Correct. I have been forced to throw out more and more specialised
classes in favor of more general ones to reduce the number of classes in
the system. The change I was refering to was to remove the Cell class
(Map has 2D array of Cells) and put the Cell data and methods in Map
instead. This will ofcourse greatly reduce the amount of needed heap
memory since the overhead for each Cell instance is quite big.

Regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
 
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Björn Bergström wrote:
> Ray Dillinger wrote:
>
>> Björn Bergström wrote:
>>>
>>> I've seen figures of only 16kb of heap space memory for the SL45i.
>>> Unfortunately Dweller takes a bit more than that at the moment. I
>>> have a final trick that would reduce the memory footprint even more,
>>> but that would make my code even less OO.
>>
>> OO-ness is not a virtue in an environment with limited memory.
>> Virtual method tables can become expensive even though invisible.
>> Bear
>
> Correct. I have been forced to throw out more and more specialised
> classes in favor of more general ones to reduce the number of classes in
> the system. The change I was refering to was to remove the Cell class
> (Map has 2D array of Cells) and put the Cell data and methods in Map
> instead. This will ofcourse greatly reduce the amount of needed heap
> memory since the overhead for each Cell instance is quite big.

For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty good
and complete in 0.6

Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
start. Look around feature is cool.

Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
* Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
* Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
* Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away (intended?)
* Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
(nit pick)
* 2 Spike traps did not injure me?

A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but given
memory problems....

I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
 
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ABCGi wrote:
> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty good
> and complete in 0.6
>
> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
> start. Look around feature is cool.
>
> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away (intended?)
> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
> (nit pick)
> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?
>
> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but given
> memory problems....
>
> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.

* Monsters definitely either run away or won't chase/approach player (as
far down as level 4). Even after melee. Even Walking Dead monster...
* No message upon firing Wand of Poison (ie you poisoned the creature,
you hit, you missed etc). You do receive a "No more charges" once it
runs out.
* The version numbers on the web page for phones "Tested on:" is out of
date or does it show the first version the phone worked on? ie Nokia
6610 (v.0.4.531) - nit pick
* The Check Version nokia command from game menu comes back Invalid File
error - not important
* Using wand of healing on self does not heal and does not give any
message when a) just come down stairs OR b) first time wand is used OR
c) failed use of wand (should say "You stuff it up")

The no-HP recovery is great.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
 
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ABCGi wrote:
> Björn Bergström wrote:
>
>> Ray Dillinger wrote:
>>
>>> Björn Bergström wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've seen figures of only 16kb of heap space memory for the SL45i.
>>>> Unfortunately Dweller takes a bit more than that at the moment. I
>>>> have a final trick that would reduce the memory footprint even more,
>>>> but that would make my code even less OO.
>>>
>>>
>>> OO-ness is not a virtue in an environment with limited memory.
>>> Virtual method tables can become expensive even though invisible.
>>> Bear
>>
>>
>> Correct. I have been forced to throw out more and more specialised
>> classes in favor of more general ones to reduce the number of classes
>> in the system. The change I was refering to was to remove the Cell
>> class (Map has 2D array of Cells) and put the Cell data and methods in
>> Map instead. This will ofcourse greatly reduce the amount of needed
>> heap memory since the overhead for each Cell instance is quite big.
>
>
> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty good
> and complete in 0.6

I have a few thing that I'd like to add, but hopefully this won't
require much more memory and/or code.

> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
> start. Look around feature is cool.
>
> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.

There seems to be problems with GC on Nokia phones. Creature and Item
instances aren't reused, but rather recreated when a new (or the same)
level is created. This might cause memory fragmentation and perhaps slow
the game...

> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away (intended?)

I think I have made the AI to dumb and to much of a coward. If the
Player is to powerful, the AI defaults to flee. When the AI flees or
moves towards the player it doesn't make smart decisions when trying to
get past obstacles. I will improve this in the next version.

> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
> (nit pick)

Agreed that it should be the other way around. I'll see what I can do.

> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?

Sometimes you do not get any damage from a Spike trap if you're armour
protects you.

> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but given
> memory problems....

Yeah, it would be nice, but I do not think this will happen due to the
memory limitations.

> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.
>

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
 
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ABCGi wrote:
> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
>> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty
>> good and complete in 0.6
>>
>> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
>> start. Look around feature is cool.
>>
>> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
>> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
>> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
>> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
>> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away
>> (intended?)
>> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
>> (nit pick)
>> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?
>>
>> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but
>> given memory problems....
>>
>> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
>> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.
>
>
> * Monsters definitely either run away or won't chase/approach player (as
> far down as level 4). Even after melee. Even Walking Dead monster...
> * No message upon firing Wand of Poison (ie you poisoned the creature,
> you hit, you missed etc). You do receive a "No more charges" once it
> runs out.

Thanks. Added to my todo/bug list!

> * The version numbers on the web page for phones "Tested on:" is out of
> date or does it show the first version the phone worked on? ie Nokia
> 6610 (v.0.4.531) - nit pick

Oh, forgot to update that. I'll do that the next time a version is released.

> * The Check Version nokia command from game menu comes back Invalid File
> error - not important

As you said, not important. Still, I will give it a quick look.

> * Using wand of healing on self does not heal and does not give any
> message when a) just come down stairs OR b) first time wand is used OR
> c) failed use of wand (should say "You stuff it up")
>
> The no-HP recovery is great.

Yeah, I think it is much better. It adds an interesting strategic dimension.

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
 
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ABCGi wrote:
> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
>> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty
>> good and complete in 0.6
>>
>> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
>> start. Look around feature is cool.
>>
>> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
>> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
>> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
>> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
>> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away
>> (intended?)
>> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
>> (nit pick)
>> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?
>>
>> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but
>> given memory problems....
>>
>> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
>> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.
>
> * Monsters definitely either run away or won't chase/approach player (as
> far down as level 4). Even after melee. Even Walking Dead monster...
> * No message upon firing Wand of Poison (ie you poisoned the creature,
> you hit, you missed etc). You do receive a "No more charges" once it
> runs out.
> * The version numbers on the web page for phones "Tested on:" is out of
> date or does it show the first version the phone worked on? ie Nokia
> 6610 (v.0.4.531) - nit pick
> * The Check Version nokia command from game menu comes back Invalid File
> error - not important
> * Using wand of healing on self does not heal and does not give any
> message when a) just come down stairs OR b) first time wand is used OR
> c) failed use of wand (should say "You stuff it up")
>
> The no-HP recovery is great.

Just completed a full game (XP level 7), I play without saving/restoring
in order to keep response time high - therefore have to do long sittings :)

* Did not get message of final pain (from trap maybe), just went
straight to death screen so wasn't sure what killed me.

Suggestions;
* Resources permitting, a weapon speed feature would be good. It would
not necessarily have to be spelled out but could work like the usual RPG
sharp vs blunt weapon better against fleshy vs bony monsters.
In this case the faster vs slower weapons better against
smaller/faster/flying vs stronger/slower/bigger monsters. This small
addition would assist in differentiating the weapons and lead to a bit
of golf clubbing for difficult monsters, which is a good thing if not
over done.
Something along those lines perhaps.

* On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?

* Without memorized spells the Wizard path seems harder, however the
inventory limit favours the wizard nicely and item scumming is possible,
except of course with the bug where no monster chases me.

* A WALK command of some kind would be nice - continue in straight line
till hit something.

I love playing Ranger with the bow and arrow!

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
 
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ABCGi wrote:
> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> ABCGi wrote:
>>
>>> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
>>> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty
>>> good and complete in 0.6
>>>
[snip old comments]
>
> Just completed a full game (XP level 7), I play without saving/restoring
> in order to keep response time high - therefore have to do long sittings :)
>
> * Did not get message of final pain (from trap maybe), just went
> straight to death screen so wasn't sure what killed me.

This needs to be solved. I'll look into this.

> Suggestions;
> * Resources permitting, a weapon speed feature would be good. It would
> not necessarily have to be spelled out but could work like the usual RPG
> sharp vs blunt weapon better against fleshy vs bony monsters.
> In this case the faster vs slower weapons better against
> smaller/faster/flying vs stronger/slower/bigger monsters. This small
> addition would assist in differentiating the weapons and lead to a bit
> of golf clubbing for difficult monsters, which is a good thing if not
> over done.
> Something along those lines perhaps.

At the moment I only factor in attack and defense in combat. I'll see
what I can do with speed and weight as well.

> * On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
> XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?

Good point. I'll see what I can do.

> * Without memorized spells the Wizard path seems harder, however the
> inventory limit favours the wizard nicely and item scumming is possible,
> except of course with the bug where no monster chases me.

This is one of my top priorities. To make the wizard's life easier I
think I'll add the possibility to memorize spells from scrolls/books.

> * A WALK command of some kind would be nice - continue in straight line
> till hit something.
>
> I love playing Ranger with the bow and arrow!

To make it even more fun to play I will try to squeeze in an autotarget
or remember last target function too.

Thanks for all your valuable input! I have added everuthing to my TODO
list and I'll go through them as soon as I have a chance to work on
Dweller again.

Best regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
 
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ABCGi <abcgi@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4166378d$0$59392$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>...
>
> * On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
> XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?

One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
always the next level up. (Requiring more exp for later levels is
effected by reducing the exp reward for killing monsters
proportionally)
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
 
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Jeff Lait wrote:
> ABCGi <abcgi@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4166378d$0$59392$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>...
>
>>* On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
>>XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?
>
>
> One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
> number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
> always the next level up. (Requiring more exp for later levels is
> effected by reducing the exp reward for killing monsters
> proportionally)

Isn't that harder for the player to understand? Then you can never be
sure of how many xp you will gain by slaying a specific type of monster.

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
 
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<bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote:
>Jeff Lait wrote:
>>One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
>>number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
>>always the next level up.
[and reduce the XP awards for beasties]
>Isn't that harder for the player to understand? Then you can never be
>sure of how many xp you will gain by slaying a specific type of monster.

Angband both reduces the XP award _and_ has levels require increasing
amounts, which strikes me as the worst approach; but players seem to deal.

I'd prefer flat awards and increasing requirements, but with an option to
display XP as a percentage of the requirement.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
 
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Björn Bergström <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote in message news:<2snmfdF1mi444U1@uni-berlin.de>...
> Jeff Lait wrote:
> > ABCGi <abcgi@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4166378d$0$59392$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>...
> >
> >>* On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
> >>XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?
> >
> >
> > One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
> > number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
> > always the next level up. (Requiring more exp for later levels is
> > effected by reducing the exp reward for killing monsters
> > proportionally)
>
> Isn't that harder for the player to understand? Then you can never be
> sure of how many xp you will gain by slaying a specific type of monster.

How's that different than not being sure of how many exp you need to
get to the next level? And why is it important to know the exact XP a
grid bug gives you? So long as it gives XP, players will figure it
out.

Knowing the exact number of exp I get from monster Y is often less
useful than knowing how close I am to the next level. Given limitted
display space, it is the latter I'd focus on. As matter of fact, I
see any advantage to the player knowing a fixed xp/monster ratio.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
 
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Björn Bergström wrote:

> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> Björn Bergström wrote:
>>
*SNIP*
>>
>> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
>> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty
>> good and complete in 0.6
>
> I have a few thing that I'd like to add, but hopefully this won't
> require much more memory and/or code.
>
>> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
>> start. Look around feature is cool.
>>
>> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
>> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
>> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
>
> There seems to be problems with GC on Nokia phones. Creature and Item
> instances aren't reused, but rather recreated when a new (or the same)
> level is created. This might cause memory fragmentation and perhaps slow
> the game...

There have been versions of your game where the response time is great,
ie no noticeable delay.

>> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
>> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away
>> (intended?)
>
> I think I have made the AI to dumb and to much of a coward. If the
> Player is to powerful, the AI defaults to flee. When the AI flees or
> moves towards the player it doesn't make smart decisions when trying to
> get past obstacles. I will improve this in the next version.
>
>> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
>> (nit pick)
>
> Agreed that it should be the other way around. I'll see what I can do.
>
>> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?
>
> Sometimes you do not get any damage from a Spike trap if you're armour
> protects you.

Ah, perhaps a message "Your armour protects you" or some such?

>> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but
>> given memory problems....
>
> Yeah, it would be nice, but I do not think this will happen due to the
> memory limitations.

Fair enough, it wouldn't add much to the actual gameplay anyway.

>> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
>> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
 
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Björn Bergström wrote:

> ABCGi wrote:
>
>> ABCGi wrote:
>>
>>> For a mobile phone game there are plenty of features in 0.6 - sounds
>>> like you may have to limit further new features? Game feels pretty
>>> good and complete in 0.6
>>>
>>> Love the forest level with no items with the "Kill the Goblin King"
>>> start. Look around feature is cool.
>>>
>>> Version 0.6 27/9/2004 on Nokia 6610
>>> * Response time is slightly noticeable on a brand new game on Nokia
>>> 6610. Seems slower after loading a game.
>>> * Monsters in forest and first level will not chase an archer
>>> * Monsters on first level will not chase warrior, some run away
>>> (intended?)
>>> * Level up increase choice occurs before You Go Up To Level X message
>>> (nit pick)
>>> * 2 Spike traps did not injure me?
>>>
>>> A little shop to sell junk and buy great stuff might be nice, but
>>> given memory problems....
>>>
>>> I'll let you know anything else I notice... the response time becomes
>>> annoying after a while, when you want to play fast.
>>
>> * Monsters definitely either run away or won't chase/approach player
>> (as far down as level 4). Even after melee. Even Walking Dead monster...
>> * No message upon firing Wand of Poison (ie you poisoned the creature,
>> you hit, you missed etc). You do receive a "No more charges" once it
>> runs out.
>
> Thanks. Added to my todo/bug list!
>
>> * The version numbers on the web page for phones "Tested on:" is out
>> of date or does it show the first version the phone worked on? ie
>> Nokia 6610 (v.0.4.531) - nit pick
>
> Oh, forgot to update that. I'll do that the next time a version is
> released.
>
>> * The Check Version nokia command from game menu comes back Invalid
>> File error - not important
>
> As you said, not important. Still, I will give it a quick look.
>
>> * Using wand of healing on self does not heal and does not give any
>> message when a) just come down stairs OR b) first time wand is used OR
>> c) failed use of wand (should say "You stuff it up")
>>
>> The no-HP recovery is great.
>
> Yeah, I think it is much better. It adds an interesting strategic
> dimension.

I had a great time in a cafe today with 3 hit points left trying to
avoid the stationary monsters looking for a healing potion, but I
stepped on a trap (I think).

* After you fix the AI, I would add/change one monster type that always
guards doors/doorways and never chases the PC. For this monster the PC
needs to melee, run past, use arrows or magic, or avoid going through
the door. A situation which often comes up when you have low hit points.

* Perhaps one other type that almost always runs away and is fast,
requiring range weapons or a strategic approach to corner. Perhaps give
the monster a missile weapon to be really nasty? So that if you take a
break from chasing it or it gets a step ahead of you if fires (ie avoids
melee distance first, then if 2 squares away will shoot). This would be
a good type of monster to make the ranger and wizard more valuable, and
the walking slow tank less so.

I have not got too deep on this version yet so forgive me if I ask for
anything that is already there.

Dweller is getting better and better, thanks a lot!

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
 
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ABCGi wrote:
> Björn Bergström wrote:
>
>> ABCGi wrote:
>>
>>> ABCGi wrote:
>>>
[snip suggestions]
>
> I had a great time in a cafe today with 3 hit points left trying to
> avoid the stationary monsters looking for a healing potion, but I
> stepped on a trap (I think).
>
> * After you fix the AI, I would add/change one monster type that always
> guards doors/doorways and never chases the PC. For this monster the PC
> needs to melee, run past, use arrows or magic, or avoid going through
> the door. A situation which often comes up when you have low hit points.
>
> * Perhaps one other type that almost always runs away and is fast,
> requiring range weapons or a strategic approach to corner. Perhaps give
> the monster a missile weapon to be really nasty? So that if you take a
> break from chasing it or it gets a step ahead of you if fires (ie avoids
> melee distance first, then if 2 squares away will shoot). This would be
> a good type of monster to make the ranger and wizard more valuable, and
> the walking slow tank less so.

I will give the AI an overhaul and use some of the suggestions in Ray
Dillinger's AI articles. The AI's described above shouldn't be that hard
to implement.

> I have not got too deep on this version yet so forgive me if I ask for
> anything that is already there.

I try to play it myself when going to and from work, and I find the game
too hard at the moment. The Goblin King will be encountered too deep and
the monsters are too hard. I think I'll have to compact the dungeon a
bit depthwise and add some more healing potions/scrolls/wands (once I
get them to work properly). Perhaps also fountains of healing or
similar. Balancing the game is one of the hardest things. The problem
with balance is that you constantly have to rebalance the game when you
add new items and monsters or make changes in the underlying game
logic... well, I guess it is always an interative process.

> Dweller is getting better and better, thanks a lot!
>

--
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
 
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Jeff Lait wrote:
> Björn Bergström <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote in message news:<2snmfdF1mi444U1@uni-berlin.de>...
>
>>Jeff Lait wrote:
>>
>>>ABCGi <abcgi@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<4166378d$0$59392$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>...
>>>
>>>
>>>>* On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the current
>>>>XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?
>>>
>>>
>>>One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
>>>number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
>>>always the next level up. (Requiring more exp for later levels is
>>>effected by reducing the exp reward for killing monsters
>>>proportionally)
>>
>>Isn't that harder for the player to understand? Then you can never be
>>sure of how many xp you will gain by slaying a specific type of monster.
>
>
> How's that different than not being sure of how many exp you need to
> get to the next level? And why is it important to know the exact XP a
> grid bug gives you? So long as it gives XP, players will figure it
> out.
>
> Knowing the exact number of exp I get from monster Y is often less
> useful than knowing how close I am to the next level. Given limitted
> display space, it is the latter I'd focus on. As matter of fact, I
> see any advantage to the player knowing a fixed xp/monster ratio.

You're right, this has it's advantages as well. I guess this is a matter
of taste. I will leave this unaltered in Dweller for now (there are more
urgent things to improve).

Regards,
Björn Bergström
roguelike development [http://roguelikedevelopment.org]
dweller - cellphone roguelike [http://roguelikedevelopment.org/dweller]
 
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Björn Bergström wrote:

> Jeff Lait wrote:
>
>> Björn Bergström <bjorn.bergstrom@roguelikedevelopment.org> wrote in
>> message news:<2snmfdF1mi444U1@uni-berlin.de>...
>>
>>> Jeff Lait wrote:
>>>
>>>> ABCGi <abcgi@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:<4166378d$0$59392$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>...
>>>>
>>>>> * On character screen show "Level 7/456" - add the 456 for the
>>>>> current XP, possible 7/456/500 to show next level up?
>>>>
>>>> One thing I'd suggest from POWDER is to make every level the same
>>>> number of experience. Then you can just have 7/456, where 1000 is
>>>> always the next level up. (Requiring more exp for later levels is
>>>> effected by reducing the exp reward for killing monsters
>>>> proportionally)
>>>
>>> Isn't that harder for the player to understand? Then you can never be
>>> sure of how many xp you will gain by slaying a specific type of monster.
>>
>> How's that different than not being sure of how many exp you need to
>> get to the next level? And why is it important to know the exact XP a
>> grid bug gives you? So long as it gives XP, players will figure it
>> out.
>>
>> Knowing the exact number of exp I get from monster Y is often less
>> useful than knowing how close I am to the next level. Given limitted
>> display space, it is the latter I'd focus on. As matter of fact, I
>> see any advantage to the player knowing a fixed xp/monster ratio.
>
> You're right, this has it's advantages as well. I guess this is a matter
> of taste. I will leave this unaltered in Dweller for now (there are more
> urgent things to improve).

It's the same in some roguelikes where the XP for an easy monster
steadily gets lower the higher your level. Both ways seem to work ok, as
you say, a matter of taste - but you do have room on the display for the
required amount of XP as well as the current.

* I love the DD idea posted elsewhere about having the XP gained of next
level percentage shown! Character screen - Level 7/457 (78%), ie 78% of
next level, much more useful than showing (586) and leaving the player
try to estimate the % left

* I would like to see a thing in brackets that shows the damage made on
a monster (-3hp) as this information is gleanable anyway by using look.

* You could include (10xp) on the death message as well if you like.

The hp or xp could be left off for space.

* Perhaps also on the character screen the very original "base" score
for Att Def etc so 15/12 (10) indicating that the player has added 2
Attack points during level ups from the start of the game and has a
weapon/rage that adds to +3.

--
ABCGi - Atomic ______________________
<===> Bacterial Genetic |---------------------||
Chemical Infantrymen <=========== http://abcgi.fly.to =-+-=>
|---------------------|'
 

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