Athlon C, DDR, Alienware and My Hatred of Mankind

[tfbww]

Oh good GOD. OK, we debated once upon a time the merits of my purchase (search for "lamer" if you really care to read). I bought a system w/ Athlon-C 1.2GHz 266FSB & 256MB DDRRAM from Alienware for about $2500. That was a month ago. I called today wondering where the f my computer was. It turns out that they had significant problems w/ the DDR chipsets' stability. They originally were marketing the ALI Magik but reportedly tested all the current DDR mobos. Anyhow, THEY HAVE DISCONTINUED THE LINE! As well as ANY 266FSB Athlons (they do have 200's). SOBs. So, they proposed "upgrading" me to a P4 1.3GHz for free (w/ 256 PC800 RDRAM) or they will split the difference on a P4 1.5GHz (I would have to up ~$150). Furthermore, they would expedite the system (5-7 days).

I would guess that the problem w/ the DDR system was in overclocking since no one (site-wise) has seemed to have any problem w/ the inherent stability of the DDR chipsets. Let me tell you, though, this doesn't bode well for AMD. Although the fact that they discontinued the 266FSB Athlons could be the center of concern and doesn't bode well either.

So, does anyone think I should actually go the route of the P4 1.5GHz or should I just "downgrade" to an Athlon SDR system and upgrade later on?

Lastly, this shows the pluses and minuses of OEMs. They make sure sh1t works but there's a delay associated with it.

Can I tell you how p1ssed off at AMD I am right now? They had my money and this is how it works out. (My lord, I'm starting to sound like Fugger...)

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Nature abhors a moron. -- HL Mencken

 

[slvr_phoenix]

Please forgive me if you can hear the laughing all the way from Wisconsin. I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing at AMD.

Here is AMD's crowning achivement: The 266MHZ DDR SDRAM system. The system that will blow the P4 out of the water. The system that shows just how good AMD really is.

Really, I am trying to stop laughing. It's just too funny.

I wouldn't go with the P4 though. It's a hacked-up piece of questionable value. If it were a Northwood, it'd be a completely different story. But it isn't.

So I'd suggest either demanding a refund and getting a new system when all of the new .13micron chips hit the market, or go with the some other Athlon solution and demand some money back with it, since obviously those parts won't be worth as much as the system you ordered in the first place would be.

Heck, if it were me, I'd just get a refund and wait for better latest-and-greatest.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.

 

[FUGGER]

OMG!! heh just what we need more ammo =P

Good thing they didnt ship you a POS AMD lemon, im sure that would have pissed you off 10x more.

Go with the P3 1Ghz and geforce3, save yourself a grand. Its all in the video card and Geforce3 is about 30 days away.

P4 is about to change and current model is not the one you want, even tho it does perform well. but .13 version will be alot better.

Avoid AMD

 

[beans]

tbfww -

Really sorry to hear that. You wouldn't believe how close I came to doing the same thing.

And, I don't know what I'd do at this point, given the options you listed.

I'm not sure this was AMD's fault, though - who was it had your money? Seems to me getting it back and starting over should be an option considered.


By the way, what got discontinued? Alienware's line, or the AMD 266FSB CPU's?


beans



<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by beans on 03/02/01 04:00 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[tfbww]

I can't say that AMD itself discontinued the C, in fact the 200FSB seems alive (I won't say "well"). Alienware definitely discontinued the Athlon C 266FSB, as well as any AMD DDR system. I'd be interested to know if anyone got a DDR system from Micron and how it runs. It could just be that alienware, because they overclock their systems, couldn't get it to work up to their standard.

Here's the deal on getting a new computer. I can't wait much longer. My P2/333 w/ TNT (non-Ultra) is VERY long in the tooth. UT runs like a dog, even friggin' Gamespy takes about 5 minutes to write out to my HD. I've been chomping at the bit. Right now, I'm thinking I'll go w/ a 1.2 Gig Athlon 200FSB, 256MB PC133 RAM, Ultra card, yadda^3 and save the $500. I don't think the P4 is a good purchase right now. What blasts my balls is that I was waiting specifically for the system I bought. This is SO disappointing.

As for the pro-Intel folk, I don't blame you one bit for laughing. Feel free to say "I told you so." As someone said (Fugger?), I am VERY happy that Alienware didn't send me a POS DDR system that was unstable and not to their spec. I think it speaks volumes for them, especially considering they knew how ticked off people like me would be.

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Nature abhors a moron. -- HL Mencken

 

[beans]

tfbww -

I agree on the POS DDR concept.

However, I would have been more impressed had they called you when they knew there was going to be a problem, rather than wait for you to call them. I suspect that had payment been due at time of shipment, they would have been motivated to do so.

And, overclock??!? My impression was that you bought an Athlon "C" to be run at 266, AMD specs. If they were planning to overclock a "B", and it wouldn't work, that's not AMD's fault.


But, now what? I think if you're making your living with this computer, that's one thing. If you're playing games, let the disappointment subside, then move on.


beans

 

[Nikko]

Go with a Falcon Northwest machine. I don't know if they have the "C" Athlons in stock but all of their machines are built using the A7M266 and PC2100.
<A HREF="http://www.falcon-nw.com" target="_new">http://www.falcon-nw.com</A>

 

[dhlucke]

Lets make one thing crystal clear:

Did AMD discontinue the processor or could alienware just not supply you the hardware?

Is there any hardware problem?



"I think I brained my damage"

 

[Zenthar]

You mean that for once the problem, isn't in a VIA chipset ... wow, I'm still under shock LOL

 

[ksoth]

AMD did not discontinue any of their 266 mHz FSB products. They have just been slightly (hehe) delayed and may be a little buggy (not anything more than what Intel has done, mind you intelophiles). Pricewatch still lists 4 seperate Athlons at 266 mHz FSB, at 1.0, 1.1, 1.13, 1.2 gHz. I think Alienware just discontinued taking orders for the DDR systems until all the kinks are worked out.

 

[tfbww]

Alienware has discontinued their AthlonC/DDR system. Nor are they using the C in a KT133A setup. So if they have any of the C's on hand, they aren't and won't be selling them anytime soon from the sound of it. There is some sort of hdwr problem, I just can't tell if its in the C or the DDR mobo's since I don't work there. I can only tell you what I heard.

And yes, I will get over this experience. BUT AMD has ticked me off. Wasn't it NOVEMBER when they announced DDR systems? And here we are in MARCH with nothing that a very reputable OEM will sell. It's like getting bad service in a restaurant. You're ticked off for a day or two and then it subsides but you sure as hell don't go back there.

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Nature abhors a moron. -- HL Mencken

 

[beans]

tfbww -

Seems to me your OEM sold you something in February that THEY didn't have in March.

To be fair, if we're going to give them credit for not shipping you a POS DDR system, then AMD is due the same for not shipping POS Athlon-C's just to make a promised date.

I really hate to keep beating this drum, because I know you're ticked. I've been there and I don't want to make it worse for you. But, the problem in your face right now is whether or not to continue with your current OEM. I hope you will consider that decision with a clear mind.


The passage of time always seems to give us better computers for less money. I hope that's the way it works out for you.


beans

 

[dhlucke]

where is their any information on faulty c athlons or bad ddr motherboards? I know some of the ddr boards don't perform all that great, but from what I gather this sounds more like alienware not being able to fill their orders.

"I think I brained my damage"

 

[tfbww]

Ugh. I'll say this slowly this time. They had the parts (the processors AND the mobos AND the DDRRAM) but could not get the stability they desired. I DON'T WORK THERE so I can't tell you what that means. They have a pretty damn good reputation so my first instinct is that aren't trying to screw the consumer. I don't know what other "information" I can give you other than that they gave me a $100+ discount on a different system. Not the act of someone who is just building them slowly. AND they pulled the systems off of their site. Micron, the only other DDR sys I know of, doesn't even sell the C's.

Second, there is a lot of proof that something went wrong, not just from one OEM. How long ago did they announce the C's? When did/will they become available? How long ago were DDR systems for AMDs announced? How many OEMs are selling them? These delays DO point to something.

Are you one of those anti-OEM zealots or just an anti-Intel zealot that doesn't want to paint a bad AMD story? Trust me, I was all for AMD until this incident. Price to performance only counts if I can GET a system.

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Nature abhors a moron. -- HL Mencken

 

[Guest]

I don't understand why you would purchase a system from Alienware. Yes, it is cool to be able to customize a box as much as Alienware lets you. However, waiting a MONTH for it to show up is simply ridiculous. If your box costs $2000 when you buy it, a month later (when you can actually use it) it is worth $1800. I was thinking of going with Alienware, but just before I submitted my order I saw how long it would take - no thanks!

Why not get an AMD system from Micron? You can have it in a week or two at the max.

 

[phsstpok]

Tfbww, that's a real bummer. I was routing for you and looking forward to hearing about your great experiences with what sounded like my dream system.

Have you decided what you are going to do?

This is what I would probably do. (This is not advice just what I believe my thinking would be in your situation). I would now be leary of vendors advertising similar systems and would like to hear of personal experiences of other individuals before purchasing such a system. I might say to myself that 133 mhz, DDR systems are just not mature enough and turn to a more proven system, most likely a 1.2 ghz Athlon with a KT133a mobo. I might also say Geforce3 is coming very soon but I can't wait and buy just a usable graphics card for now and reserve my money for the GF3 later. I think I would also like to go with a local computer store, someplace where I can drop off my computer should I have problems. (I prefer depot service to on-site service simply because I would rather not wait at home all day for someone to arrive).

Such a system would be priced in the $1500-$1900 range depending on the trimmings. I would simply sit back and enjoy my purchase until I decided to upgrade again.

Good luck with what you decide.


<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by phsstpok on 03/03/01 09:52 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[tfbww]

I would have thought the same thing until a friend of mine decided to rebuild his system. He used reputable dealers, like mwave, and when all was said and done, it took him over a month to get the parts together. He had things like a pre-fried mobo, the wrong HD, etc.

And as for anything dropping $200 in one month... that's a bit extreme. $100 I can see, maybe. Let's put it this way, nothing on Alienware has dropped $200 in the past month.

So, again, it depends on what you value most. Myself, I value my personal time more than the money I make (i.e. I work my ass off and make decent cash to enjoy my days off all the more). I had enough over the past month to do that it wasn't a big deal (trips, business, etc.). Now it's irritating.

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Nature abhors a moron. -- HL Mencken

 

[Guest]

Your points are well taken. Good luck in whatever you decide to do!

 

[Guest]

AMD has not 'discontinued' the C Althlons. I've seen no mention of absolutely ANY problems with the CPU istelf on any of the myriad of reviews I've read. DDR is another story. Asus has appearantly had problems with it's DDR mobo and discontinued it, although that still maybe in the rumor stage. The ALi chipset has had some stability probs though (The Asus board uses the AMD 760 chipset.)

Frighteningly enough everyone is hoping that the slowly upcoming Via chipset will finaly realize the performance of DDR. As far as the wait for DDR, can you think of any new tech rollout that has been on time and bug free? It will take time, but I think that DDR is going to be the new standard by the end of the year.


The glass isn't half empty, it isn't half full. There just isn't enough in it.

 

[tfbww]

DDR may be a standard 10 months from now, as you say, but it is having some serious growing pains now. The point of this thread wasn't to predict the RDRAM vs. QUADRAM vs. DDRRAM battle. It was to say that DDR doesn't seem cut it today in any way, shape, or form.

I do NOT accept the "everyone else deos it" argument and frankly don't know why anyone would. I don't buy it for Clinton pardons and I don't buy it now. They didn't announce that it was going to "be available in Q1;" they said it was available in Q4 and, by extension, now. It "is" available but it most certainly isn't.

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Nature abhors a moron. -- HL Mencken

 

[FUGGER]

Here you go, the link to Asus forums.

Look at "10 most read posts"

Notice how all 10 posts are A7V and DDR chipset related 10 of 10. perfect score!

Enjoy your DDR chipset AMD, AHAHHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, ha whew almost fell out of my chair.

 

[Guest]

Did someone forget their meds this morning?

Sarcasm maybe the recourse of a weak mind,
but it can be funny as hell.

 

[gregorarch]

Seems to me that you picked exactly the wrong time to try and buy a system. We've got two new platforms, both fairly immature, both not yet ramped up to full production, with first-run parts only just making it into the stream. OF COURSE you're going to have these sorts of problems. That's the price of being an early adopter - you get to be the crash-text dummy.

If you actually do a bit of research (trying to avoid the obvious marketing hype) you'll find that it's well known that DDR systems are still teething, the chipsets may have problems and the "C" CPUs and PC2100 DDR modules are hard to get hold of. You'd have to be INSANE to buy one now. In two months time it may very well be a different story - are you really in that much of a hurry?

You have to realise that there's a big difference between "available" and "actaully available" - this isn't just an AMD trick, Intel does it too. They say the parts are "available" when they're shipping engineering samples to developers (OK thats an exaggeration, but not by much).

 

[tfbww]

I certainly understood the risks. I knew full well that I'd be flashing my BIOS a couple times soon and that performance wouldn't live up to its full potential. BUT, this OEM got the engineering samples to work fine and not the production (at least that is what I've been told, so take it with a grain of salt).

Most reviews did say there were small problems. But pretty much every review said that there were no showstoppers. From hardocp to thg, they all thought that the DDR boards were stable (although the effectiveness of the DDR varied by board).

The availability "trick" is something that is NOT acceptable. AMD fans SLAM Intel for the 1.13gig "availability trick," and rightly so, but they have to realize that their beloved AMD seems to have done something similar here. And, trust me, I'm pulling for AMD here (50% market share for each is my ideal scenario) to a point.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

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Nature abhors a moron. -- HL Mencken

 

[slvr_phoenix]

Okay, I actually emailed Alienware's sales department to ask them for more information about what's going on there. Here was their response:

----------
We had Engineering samples that worked great but as we were building systems we found out that they were not meeting our standards as far as the motherboards and the processor. We have had to much trouble with testing
DDR systems in production that we made the final decision to wait for a New Board to come out for DDR.


Thank you for your interest.
Sales@alienware.com
800-494-3382 Toll Free
305-259-4262 International
305-259-9874 Fax
----------

Maybe I should have directed the email to someone other than sales, as they responded with a lot of generality. Still, it seems pretty straight forward to me. They got engineering samples. The engineering samples performed well. So they started ramping up to deliver their DDR product. But the actual production hardware (their final statement leaves me to believe it was the motherboard specifically) wasn't the same quality as the engineering samples. It caused stability problems in the systems. Hence they had to cancel their line of DDR Athlon systems. And they didn't once mention overclocking. If it were just a matter of OCing, they'd have offered the product un-overclocked.

It sounds to me like the DDR motherboards are quirky at best. The engineering samples worked just peachy, but the production models don't. Obviously quality control isn't what it should be if it takes an OEM (and NOT the motherboard manufacturer) to figure this out.

So any site (such as THG) that reviewed a DDR system probably never ran into this insability because they were using engineering samples, not production models.

Is the fault ultimately AMD's? No one can say. Obviously the flaw is very new. It reminds me a lot of the MTH idiocy that Intel put people through.

In that, was the fault Intel's? No. The MTH worked. It was the memory bus on the motherboard itself that caused noise, killing the MTH. So really, it was the motherboard manfacturer's fault. But since the problem wasn't reproducable, all MTH's were open to recall because one couldn't determine if their system was vulnerable to the bug. And everyone blamed Intel for it. Maybe Intel should have made the MTH less sensitive to noise. Maybe the whole concept of the MTH was stupid. But the MTH itself worked. It was putting it on a poorly-designed motherboard that was the problem.

So is this AMD's fault? Chances are, no. But, chances are also high that AMD will get the blame for it because their product is the root that people associate to, just as Intel got the blame for the MTH problems.

Either way though, it remains pretty clear that if you want a T-Bird system with DDR SDRAM, you're going to have to wait if you want it to be stable. It sounds like this is true of both the 100 and 133MHz FSB systems.

And it only further proves why I think THG should do follow-up reviews on production models once they become available instead of testing engineering samples only and leaving us to hope that production models work as advertised.

- Sanity is purely based on point-of-view.