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[DoomRL] Comments and suggestions

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January 13, 2005 3:45:10 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

For those who have no idea what I'm talking about:
http://chaos.magma-net.pl/doom/ Go play! :) 

First off, great work on the design. It captures the essence of the game
nicely, and you seem to be striving for a good balance with the Traits.

Some random suggestions:

Add more 'features' and 'terrain' to the early game. Columns to hide behind,
etc

Display modifications for Coward/Cautious/Aggressive tactics

Display the radius of the potential explosion for a Barrel when you target
it

Autotarget the nearest barrel if no enemy is in sight and you press f

Let +/- on the numpad and perhaps t (for target) swap nearby targets quickly

Some means of extended walk would be very nice - either a single key to
press, followed by a direction (w for walk?), or a modifier key to be held
(shift-dir) (or both).

Allow key remapping/customization in an ini/ingame

This one is quirky but - allow c(lose) door to also open a door, or add a
new key which (along with remappable keys) would allow a single button push
to toggle the state of a door (this is just pickiness, I like having all of
my command keys on the left side of the keyboard if at all possible).

I'll post more as they occur to me, need to go croak some more ;) 
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 1:32:59 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Marcus wrote:
> For those who have no idea what I'm talking about:
> http://chaos.magma-net.pl/doom/ Go play! :) 
>
> First off, great work on the design. It captures the essence of the
> game nicely, and you seem to be striving for a good balance with the
> Traits.

Thanks ;-)

> Some random suggestions:
>
> Add more 'features' and 'terrain' to the early game. Columns to hide
> behind, etc

Yeah, collumns are in the dev-plan.

> Display modifications for Coward/Cautious/Aggressive tactics

What do you mean by that?

> Display the radius of the potential explosion for a Barrel when you
> target it

This would be to easy ;-).

> Autotarget the nearest barrel if no enemy is in sight and you press f

Ok.

> Let +/- on the numpad and perhaps t (for target) swap nearby targets
> quickly

Try pressing [TAB] ;-)

> Some means of extended walk would be very nice - either a single key
> to press, followed by a direction (w for walk?), or a modifier key to
> be held (shift-dir) (or both).

Ok. Due to me using very very basic keypress routines this feature will get
delayed a little...

> Allow key remapping/customization in an ini/ingame

Ok.

> This one is quirky but - allow c(lose) door to also open a door, or
> add a new key which (along with remappable keys) would allow a single
> button push to toggle the state of a door (this is just pickiness, I
> like having all of my command keys on the left side of the keyboard
> if at all possible).

Ok, I'll consider that ;-)

> I'll post more as they occur to me, need to go croak some more ;) 

Thank you for the feedback ;-)

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
DoomRL ( http://chaos.magma-net.pl/doom/ )
January 13, 2005 1:33:00 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Marcus wrote:
>> Display modifications for Coward/Cautious/Aggressive tactics
>
> What do you mean by that?

Ah, I may be being dumb here (see your tab targeting comment), but I have
absolutely no idea what these tactics do for my character, positive or
negative - ie, display what they are affecting (oh, and there's a slight bug
with Berserk packs, they leave you in Aggressive, rather than reverting to
your last used tactic)

>> Display the radius of the potential explosion for a Barrel when you
>> target it
>
> This would be to easy ;-).

I view it as removing tedium - I can count out the number of squares for a
barrel explosion easily, why force the player to do something that isn't
necessary? It adds eyestrain and slows the game down *shrug*

>> Some means of extended walk would be very nice - either a single key
>> to press, followed by a direction (w for walk?), or a modifier key to
>> be held (shift-dir) (or both).
>
> Ok. Due to me using very very basic keypress routines this feature
> will get delayed a little...

Cool :)  It's a little annoying having to go 'step step step step step' in
hostile unexplored terrain, lest you wind up getting chewed up in melee due
to an overzealous rush.

>> I'll post more as they occur to me, need to go croak some more ;) 
>
> Thank you for the feedback ;-)
>
> regards,
> Kornel Kisielewicz
> DoomRL ( http://chaos.magma-net.pl/doom/ )

Crud... I knew I had some more! I need to actually *beat* the game first
though, since some of my suggestions may already be in the game farther
along.

Here's a few though

Do lava/acid/water have any effects on movement speed/defenses/etc? If not,
should they?

Purely aesthetic - having the entire non visible level in white is kind of
numbing after awhile, perhaps colorize it at least mildly? It's very nice to
be able to always see the sight range of your personal Doomguy, but the all
bland level outside of range is a little offputting.

Levers seem to be just a bad idea - there don't seem to be any positive
effects for the player, so why ever use them? Cheesing extra experience on a
level if you happen to get lucky with positioning of a monster spawning
lever seems to be about the only useful tactic I could find with them.

Sometimes the four early medkits in the first area are taken and used by the
first former humans - is this intentional? It can make the start harder for
some characters, easier for others, depending on what has occured when you
arrive.

The classic 'room full of monsters surprise' would be cute - place larger
health packs, suits of armor, ammo stashes weapons out in the open in a
room, then trigger a door/wall sliding open nearby when the player picks it
up. Perhaps save these till a bit later in the game, so the player can at
least get some experience before slamming into these (or severely limit
their size/scope early on - eg, opening door with a few former humans,
instead of a sliding wall with a full pack of lost souls and demons)..

This one is way out there in terms of implementation, but use of height was
always a key tactical advantage in Doom - perhaps you could model various
'heights' in the levels via a different square display. A minimal
implementation would be unrestricting terrain that simply gives some
benefits while up 'high', and perhaps an increased energy cost for
'climbing' up the slope. A far more complex implementation would be
potentially blocking 'height terrain' that monsters could not climb,
allowing the player to pepper melee critters from above. This would need a
revised level builder and some way for smarter monsters to discover a route
'up' to the player though, dunno. Perhaps simply obstructing terrain is
enough ;)  I'm just thinking of stuff that can make the potential firefights
and encounters with giant packs of demons more interesting as far as player
choices are concerned.
Related resources
January 13, 2005 1:33:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Yet another victory post? Yet another trip to hell? We need a new tag! ;) 

More comments/bugs/stuff follow character dump - Cyberdemon needs to be more
obnoxious, but I'm not sure how...

--------------------------------------------------------------
DoomRL (v.0.9.5 (beta)) roguelike post-mortem character dump
--------------------------------------------------------------

Doomguy, level 5 soldier, bleeded to death (think you've already seen this
bug)
on level 20 of the Phobos base.
He survived 62133 turns and scored 21598 points.
He found the Phobos Arena.
He stormed the Chained Court.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Statistics
Health 39/50 Experience 16376/5
ToHit +0 ToDmg Ranged +2 ToDmg Melee +2

--------------------------------------------------------------

Traits:
Tough as nails (Level 3) (overpowered I think, this adds flat 1 point
per level, in comparison with armor that bleeds down and never adds more
than 4?)
Son of a bitch (Level 2) (this is nice with the autofire weapons,
perhaps something should be added to increase the power of single shot
weapons?)

--------------------------------------------------------------

Equipment

[a] [ Armor ] red armor [1/4] (8%)
[ Weapon ] plasma rifle (1d8)x8 [16/40]
[c] [ Boots ] plasteel boots [8/8] (99%)

--------------------------------------------------------------

Inventory

[a] axe (1d6)
chainsaw (4d6)
[c] chaingun (1d6)x5 [50/50]
[d] rocket launcher (4d4) [0/1]
[e] power cell (x10)
[f] 10mm ammo (x100)
rocket (x10)
[h] rocket (x10)
10mm ammo (x100)
[j] 10mm ammo (x100)
[k] 10mm ammo (x49)
[l] rocket (x10)
[m] rocket (x7)
[n] large med-pack
[o] large med-pack
[p] large med-pack
[q] large med-pack
[r] plasteel boots [8/8] (100%)

--------------------------------------------------------------

Kills

52 former humans
28 former human seregants
26 former human capitans
32 imps
26 demons
20 lost souls
32 cacodemons
11 barons of hell
1 Cyberdemon

--------------------------------------------------------------

Inspecting yourself with look/fire at 201+ health shows you as 'almost dead'

Armor picked up when you have non on should perhaps autoequip?

Starting story scroll should turn off after you've seen it once (an option
in ini file maybe?)

l(ook) should perhaps target the nearest 'interesting' feature

If your inventory is full, you cannot remove armor

The double barrel ammo display is slightly cut off

XP display should perhaps show amount of xp to next level, counting down?

Boots should drain faster, and more 'useful' items should be located out in
lava/acid later, guarded by monsters (eg, no random
Supercharges/invulns/berserks, these should always be guarded by packs,
placed out in hostile terrain, etc)

Perhaps there should never be more than one Map Terminal per level?

Perhaps add blue/yellow/red keycards? Autopickup, only stay for level,
unlock caches of armor/weapons/powerups/monsters?

You can't switch to the CS if you drop your axe

Supercharge will lower your health to 200 if you are above 200

Health should perhaps cap at 200

Health should probably automatically bleed down to 100 if above (largely to
increase the difficulty later)

Obvious - add next two episodes :D 

More special levels!

More monster packs! Instead of a few monsters in a room, have dedicated
swarms of lost souls, giant packs of former humans, clusters of Cacodemons,
mobs of Demons, pairs and trios of Barons

Good fun, I like it a lot :) 
Anonymous
January 13, 2005 8:23:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Marcus wrote:
> More comments/bugs/stuff follow character dump - Cyberdemon needs to
> be more obnoxious, but I'm not sure how...

He's a wimp now. It will change in the next release -- he will have red
armor ;-), meaning that chainguns and plasma will be totaly inefective.
Reload time will rise reducing the effectiveness of other weapons.

> --------------------------------------------------------------
> DoomRL (v.0.9.5 (beta)) roguelike post-mortem character dump
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Doomguy, level 5 soldier, bleeded to death (think you've already seen
> this bug)

Yes ;-). And I hope I already killed it in version 0.9.6.

> on level 20 of the Phobos base.
> He survived 62133 turns and scored 21598 points.
> He found the Phobos Arena.
> He stormed the Chained Court.

Just two special levels? You must have missed Hell's Armory, and the Halls
of Carnage.

> Traits:
> Tough as nails (Level 3) (overpowered I think, this adds flat 1
> point per level, in comparison with armor that bleeds down and never
> adds more than 4?)

Maybe. The game needs a lot of tweaking yet.

> Son of a bitch (Level 2) (this is nice with the autofire weapons,
> perhaps something should be added to increase the power of single shot
> weapons?)

Adding armour to monsters will reduce that bonus :-/

> Inspecting yourself with look/fire at 201+ health shows you as
> 'almost dead'

Already fixed for 096.

> Armor picked up when you have non on should perhaps autoequip?

And auto-waste a turn on wearing it? Some people might not like it.

> Starting story scroll should turn off after you've seen it once (an
> option in ini file maybe?)

Yes. When I add the ini file it will be.

> l(ook) should perhaps target the nearest 'interesting' feature

Hmm, true.

> If your inventory is full, you cannot remove armor

But pressing a letter when in 'i' mode of the desired armour will switch
them.

> The double barrel ammo display is slightly cut off

Yes :-(

> XP display should perhaps show amount of xp to next level, counting
> down?

Fixed for 096 -- it will display percentage of experience to next level.

> Perhaps there should never be more than one Map Terminal per level?

They will be rarer in the next release.

> Perhaps add blue/yellow/red keycards? Autopickup, only stay for level,
> unlock caches of armor/weapons/powerups/monsters?

I thought about it and found a use for them ;-). That will have to wait
though.

> You can't switch to the CS if you drop your axe

You can 'w'ear it I know, the Quick Key code is buggy -- but unfortunately
it's also scary, and I don't know when I'll gather the courage to touch it
;-).

> Supercharge will lower your health to 200 if you are above 200
> Health should perhaps cap at 200
> Health should probably automatically bleed down to 100 if above
> (largely to increase the difficulty later)

These all are fixed for 096 -- Health degrades to 100.

> Obvious - add next two episodes :D 

:-D

> More special levels!

Will be ;-). I'm thinking of a Doom style overland map :D 

> Good fun, I like it a lot :) 

Thank you ;-),
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
January 13, 2005 8:23:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Marcus wrote:
>> He survived 62133 turns and scored 21598 points.
>> He found the Phobos Arena.
>> He stormed the Chained Court.
>
> Just two special levels? You must have missed Hell's Armory, and the
> Halls of Carnage.

Ah, I saw the early ones, but it's basically suicide to go in there that
soon, so I just skipped them (think the marines on the starting level took
the medkits, and I didn't find any on the first floor or two, which
frequently occurs, so I bypassed them).

>> Armor picked up when you have non on should perhaps autoequip?
>
> And auto-waste a turn on wearing it? Some people might not like it.

Indeed - perhaps give a free turn and autopickup/equip the very first time
you step on a new weapon or armor piece? Just seemed sort of Doomish and
natural that I'd automatically slip into my first suit of armor/grab a new
gun (only the first time though, auto pickup with time consumed would
definitely be annoying/dangerous later)

>> If your inventory is full, you cannot remove armor
>
> But pressing a letter when in 'i' mode of the desired armour will
> switch them.

Ah, didn't know that - perhaps print a suitable message when attempting to
remove armor with a full inventory? Or change the mechanic slightly, so that
selecting a piece of armor/weapon from the 'e' screen pops up a list of
suitable replacements? That would skirt the issue and feel pretty
comfortable
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 11:50:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Marcus wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>> Marcus wrote:
>>> Armor picked up when you have non on should perhaps autoequip?
>>
>> And auto-waste a turn on wearing it? Some people might not like it.
>
> Indeed - perhaps give a free turn and autopickup/equip the very first
> time you step on a new weapon or armor piece? Just seemed sort of
> Doomish and natural that I'd automatically slip into my first suit of
> armor/grab a new gun (only the first time though, auto pickup with
> time consumed would definitely be annoying/dangerous later)

I don't know. I think I'll keep it as it is.

>>> If your inventory is full, you cannot remove armor
>>
>> But pressing a letter when in 'i' mode of the desired armour will
>> switch them.
>
> Ah, didn't know that - perhaps print a suitable message when
> attempting to remove armor with a full inventory? Or change the
> mechanic slightly, so that selecting a piece of armor/weapon from the
> 'e' screen pops up a list of suitable replacements? That would skirt
> the issue and feel pretty comfortable

Hmm, maybe -- that's nice. But on the other hand it would work only with
backpack full.

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 12:04:07 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Marcus wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>> Marcus wrote:
>>> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>>>> Marcus wrote:
>>>>> Display modifications for Coward/Cautious/Aggressive tactics
>> It's something you have to test for youself. I few hints though --
>> agressive lowes your defence and increases melee damage. Coward
>> increases running speed.
>
> This is purely personal preference, but I've never liked obfuscation
> as a method of design - if the players care enough, they will
> experiment and share the information, or hack the game itself to
> uncover the information.

That would be nice if players would start writing Spoilers and Tatic
guidesfor DoomRL I would be honoured :-D

>>> (oh, and
>>> there's a slight bug with Berserk packs, they leave you in
>>> Aggressive, rather than reverting to your last used tactic)
>>
>> It's meant to be like that :->
>
> Really? Seems like an odd quirk.

You're still under the ruch of the recent breserk until you notice it and
take time to calm down.

>>>>> Display the radius of the potential explosion for a Barrel when
>>>>> you target it
>> The damage is random anyway ;-).
>
> The damage, or the area affected?

Damage.

>>> Do lava/acid/water have any effects on movement speed/defenses/etc?
>>> If not, should they?
>>
>> Just damage. Or also maybe they should affect movement speed. They
>> didn't slow you down in the original Doom, though.
>
> True, just trying to think of some other effects, that would make the
> terrain more of a feature.

Very good idea.

> Perhaps increased damage from 'flame'
> attacks while on lava, decreased damage from same on water.

Water will have a use when I introduce the last weapon for DoomRL...

> I'd like to see some levels later in the game that forced you to
> fight on 'unpleasant' terrain, as long as there were a few guaranteed
> equipment drops to help deal with them (fixed levels would work well
> for this, it'd be cool to have a few fixed layout levels leading up
> to the end, plus scattered throughout the complex - not just
> alternate routes).

Hmm, maybe I'll use that idea for extended map generation.

>>> Levers seem to be just a bad idea - there don't seem to be any
>>> positive effects for the player, so why ever use them?
>>
>> There are positive effects, and there will be more.
>
> I'll reserve judgement till I see the updates, but I'm not inclined
> to play roulette in any roguelike game where death is permanent. If
> there is even a slightly good chance of a negative effect, I'll
> probably just avoid the feature entirely.

Some of the special level doors will only appear if you pull a certain
lever. Also sometimes levers will make ammo fall from the celing ;-)

> Alternately, having the levers play with the level layout in a manner
> that would allow you to control encounters with swarms of enemies
> would be pretty interesting.

This one is good!

>>> Sometimes the four early medkits in the first area are taken and
>>> used by the first former humans - is this intentional? It can make
>>> the start harder for some characters, easier for others, depending
>>> on what has occured when you arrive.
>>
>> Randomness is cute ;-). And life is full of surprises :D 
>
> Indeed, but I figured the starting area was to get you on your feet,
> since you have no guaranteed source of armor/health past the start.
> Not a huge issue, just seems odd.

Maybe I'll put two of those before the entrance.

> One other thought - the game definitely doesn't need piles of
> randomized equipment, but a few modifcations to gear might be
> interesting. If weapons had a random attribute (increasingly likely
> as you descend), you could give the player some meaningful choices on
> what to carry, since inventory space is limited. Boots that negate
> water movement penalty, armor that decreases a certain class of
> attack (ballistic, physical, flame, likelihood of bleeding, radsuit),

Hmm....

> and weapons that have a single special attribute (faster reload,
> higher ammo capacity, higher damage, longer range, larger explosion,
> wider arc, faster fire rate, and so on) would all be interesting. Do
> you want the Plasma Rifle with an 80 clip capacity, or the one with
> an extra point of damage per bolt, or the one that fires an extra
> bolt?

Maybe weapon upgrades? You can only mount one of them in one weapon...

> You could play with the ratio of ammo generation to monster ratio,
> forcing tough decisions in some places.

This will be made.

> I realize this might be adding a touch more complexity than you are
> interested in (and it does stray from canon a bit, such as it is),
> but it would add more meaningful, interesting choices on what to
> carry as you descend into the pits of hell :) 

Yes, I fully agree ;-).

> More options and
> tactics, while keeping the game fast paced and the decisions simple
> but difficult seems well in character with what you have going so far.

I just have to keep eye not to reduce the pace of the game, for as for now
it feels realy good...

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
January 14, 2005 12:56:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Marcus wrote:
>> This is purely personal preference, but I've never liked obfuscation
>> as a method of design - if the players care enough, they will
>> experiment and share the information, or hack the game itself to
>> uncover the information.
>
> That would be nice if players would start writing Spoilers and Tatic
> guidesfor DoomRL I would be honoured :-D

Stranger things have happened :D 

>>>> (oh, and
>>>> there's a slight bug with Berserk packs, they leave you in
>>>> Aggressive, rather than reverting to your last used tactic)
>>>
>>> It's meant to be like that :->
>>
>> Really? Seems like an odd quirk.
>
> You're still under the ruch of the recent breserk until you notice it
> and take time to calm down.

Dunno, it's not something I ever forgot to change, just seemed like a
needless key press

>> Ah, didn't know that - perhaps print a suitable message when
>> attempting to remove armor with a full inventory? Or change the
>> mechanic slightly, so that selecting a piece of armor/weapon from the
>> 'e' screen pops up a list of suitable replacements? That would skirt
>> the issue and feel pretty comfortable
>
> Hmm, maybe -- that's nice. But on the other hand it would work only
> with backpack full.

Why not have it work that way always? If you select a weapon/armor slot, and
you have another usable item in inventory, it just displays a list of
possible swaps/equips (rather than once to deequip, once to equip).

>>>>>> Display the radius of the potential explosion for a Barrel when
>>>>>> you target it
>>> The damage is random anyway ;-).
>>
>> The damage, or the area affected?
>
> Damage.

Then why not display the area when the targeting cursor is over the barrel?
;) 

>> I'll reserve judgement till I see the updates, but I'm not inclined
>> to play roulette in any roguelike game where death is permanent. If
>> there is even a slightly good chance of a negative effect, I'll
>> probably just avoid the feature entirely.
>
> Some of the special level doors will only appear if you pull a certain
> lever. Also sometimes levers will make ammo fall from the celing ;-)

If levers were considerably more 'controlled', I'd find them much more
interesting. Eg, first off implement monster swarms + secret monster rooms +
almost *always* have good powerups in monster rooms, then usually have
levers either a) access a monster swarm b) a secret room c) change tactical
terrain, and levers would be cool and useful. Oh, and you might want to
rename them to buttons or something similar, to match Doom a bit more
closely :) 

>> and weapons that have a single special attribute (faster reload,
>> higher ammo capacity, higher damage, longer range, larger explosion,
>> wider arc, faster fire rate, and so on) would all be interesting. Do
>> you want the Plasma Rifle with an 80 clip capacity, or the one with
>> an extra point of damage per bolt, or the one that fires an extra
>> bolt?
>
> Maybe weapon upgrades? You can only mount one of them in one weapon...

My thought was definitely only *one* 'upgrade' per weapon type. Also,
certain weapon upgrades would only show up on certain weapons. I don't know
about carryable upgrades, it seems that it would just add yet another item
lying around on the floor, plus it would make it a bit too easy to modify
exactly the weapon your character can most use. If weapons start getting
generated with single attributes later in the game (particularly weapons
located behind secret doors that are opened by levers and full of monsters,
or out on lava islands guarded by five barons...), you'd have real incentive
to use all levers/buttons, explore levels fully, etc, BUT, you wouldn't
always get the 'perfect' weapon. You'd get an extended clip pistol, an
overcharged plasma rifle, a longer range chaingun, a scoped shotgun, and so
on. Basically giving you real reason to always trip levers/buttons, explore
lava/acid, and find secret doors/walls.

>> More options and
>> tactics, while keeping the game fast paced and the decisions simple
>> but difficult seems well in character with what you have going so
>> far.
>
> I just have to keep eye not to reduce the pace of the game, for as
> for now it feels realy good...

I think, carefully implemented, most of these should just add to the depth,
without changing the pacing. Most of them are fairly high level decisions
(do I go for the secret caches or not? do I trip the buttons or not? do I
explore and fight for that custom weapon or not?), and there shouldn't be a
lot of 'inventory fiddling', even with special weapons/armor floating
around. You'd just be constantly forced to pick and choose what you need. I
like the tight inventory constraints, and special items would make that
aspect of the game even more challenging (and thus interesting).
January 14, 2005 4:03:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Marcus .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> For those who have no idea what I'm talking about:
> http://chaos.magma-net.pl/doom/ Go play! :) 
>
Here are some of my impressions after one evening with this:


Nice features:

1) Climate is ok and bloody.

2) Reality in guns handling.

3) Monsters need to reload guns too, their


Requests:

1) There is very little use from collecting pistols and others. Requests:
weapon break down, explode, command to take out ammo and throw duplicate
weapon away, add upgrade modifications like silencer, scope, extended
magazine etc.

2) Too short equipment list, making player do annoying things like
decisions what ammo is the least valuable, or doing stashes of things
wanted to pickup before leaving the area. I guess equipment two times
bigger doesn't hurt. Another solution: stash all the ammo together and use
weight based limitation rather than number of items limitation. This is
much better as eliminates need to search how many groups of 10mm ammo
character have.

3) Equipment and powerups of known location should be seen on map after
leaving area.

4) in the traits screen it'd be nice to add description of traits with
current effect. Also describe better the health and toHit traits - it is
unclear what is the base value and how it works. The same for berserk - I
guess it doubles the melee damage apart from healing up to 100%?

5) Add 'wait one turn' command (or until monster shows itself\makes move).

6) Inventory sorting, add subcategories (weapons, armour, ammo,
miscellaneous)

7) Monster should have more initiative, usually they just wonder and wait
to be killed. Crawl monster statuses are exemplary here. Monsters react to
sound? In doom monsters attacked all the time AFAIR.

8) Melee fight is useless as most monsters shoot and there is not enough
bonus to using even chainsaw. Berserk is too short as well as invur...foo
also ;-)

9) Longer blink on tiles where shotgun hits. What is the mechanic of
(double) shotgun fire?

10) Leveling is very rare, it could be 2 times more frequent it would
compensate with more active and not deaf monsters I guess.

11) Healing things are very messy.

12) Powerups are very similar to each other in graphics.

13) In chained foo special level it should be impossible to change weapon
from chainsaw. Also a lot more walls to hide from shooters and jump
suddenly on them cutting into meat.

14) In my feeling levels are too open, it is also easy to break walls that
eliminates strategy related to wall hiding.

15) Rockets don't explode on walls? Eliminates very nice strategy of
shooting the walls and catching monsters in blasts.

16) Double pistols could be very interesting (Unreal Tournament patent) -
doubles damage would make "Son of a gun" trait not a dead one perhaps.
Right now pistol is useless comparing to chaingun for example.

17) I've got a feeling that plasma gun is too weak comparing to chaingun.



Questions:
1) What is the relation between character sight range (modified by Cateye
or not) and monster seeing range?

2) I suppose -20% per level to reload time for example is applied at each
level separately (so 100%, 80%, 64%, 52.8%, 42.24% and so on)?

3) Isn't it faster to take another loaded shotgun from inventory than
reload the shotgun currently wielded? Is double barrel shotgun reloading
slower than one barrelled? What are the exact time values for reloading of
weapons?

4) I don't think berserk with all in red is a good idea, there is no
indication of view range and game is full of red things, acid and lava are
not visible when berserk.

5) Boots doesn't contribute to damage reduction from normal damage, except
lava/acid walking, I assume?

6) What amount of experience is required for the next levels? What function
it follows?


Bugs and inconsequences:

1) Very annoying something that summons a hundred of hell barons, claiming
that player entered cheat code (phew) when simply pressed 'd'. You are
happy not being close enough to be strangled for this "feature" (260%
health, all weapons, unbeatable munchkin at DL 16)

2) Diagonally character is able to aim over it's sighting range. Aiming is
strange, sometimes although the line is partly red it works perfectly and
hits the monster that shouldn't be hit according to the trajectory shown.

3) Double shotgun and plasma rifle descriptions too long, no place for ammo
(place the level no. just after the name of level Phobos Base lvl 8)?

4) Add another key bind to double shotgun, or make it activate before
single shotgun, now character loses time to change them.

5) Impossible to change to chainsaw when not having axe. The same with
shotguns.

6) Should take by preference the most loaded weapon when pressed weapon
shortcut key.

7) Effects of barrel explosion update the map beyond viewing range.

8) Supercharge Globe reduces health to 200% when above. Large Healing Globe
adds some, up to 128 - not very intuitive.

9) Walls are "blooded" from two sides, when should be only from one. ;-)

10) 260% (256+4) health is shown as "almost dead" :-)


--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl
January 14, 2005 4:21:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> This is purely personal preference, but I've never liked obfuscation
>> as a method of design - if the players care enough, they will
>> experiment and share the information, or hack the game itself to
>> uncover the information.
> That would be nice if players would start writing Spoilers and Tatic
> guidesfor DoomRL I would be honoured :-D

:-) For this you need to reveal some things and increase the mechanics
complexity. I've got a feeling that with present mechanics game is too
long, there is not a lot of action\strategy around. With current complexity
of game 8-10 levels should be enough, I didn't notice any new things after.


>> Perhaps increased damage from 'flame'
>> attacks while on lava, decreased damage from same on water.
> Water will have a use when I introduce the last weapon for DoomRL...

Let me guess: SharkGun ? ;-P


>> I'll reserve judgement till I see the updates, but I'm not inclined
>> to play roulette in any roguelike game where death is permanent. If
>> there is even a slightly good chance of a negative effect, I'll
>> probably just avoid the feature entirely.
> Some of the special level doors will only appear if you pull a certain
> lever. Also sometimes levers will make ammo fall from the celing ;-)

Didn't noticed any of these effects and I'm discouraged to pull levers
also, as it gives only pain (lava, crushing the walls) while ammo is not a
problem in this game. Hiding entrances behind powerups (accident as I
think) and need to pull levers to obtain a special level is not good IMO.


>> and weapons that have a single special attribute (faster reload,
>> higher ammo capacity, higher damage, longer range, larger explosion,
>> wider arc, faster fire rate, and so on) would all be interesting. Do
>> you want the Plasma Rifle with an 80 clip capacity, or the one with
>> an extra point of damage per bolt, or the one that fires an extra
>> bolt?
> Maybe weapon upgrades? You can only mount one of them in one weapon...

This would add sense to having multiple weapons of the same type but with
different upgrades. I like this idea in connection with increased
inventory.


>> More options and
>> tactics, while keeping the game fast paced and the decisions simple
>> but difficult seems well in character with what you have going so far.
>
> I just have to keep eye not to reduce the pace of the game, for as for now
> it feels realy good..

Having experience with Crawl - DoomRL is rather peaceful - if you don't
move you are not threatened (except Hell Arena maybe), monsters are not
bloodthirsty and attack rarely if you are not close. From such title I
expect danger in the first place, when the character is at edge, lacks
ammo, weapons break down and such. If you played Serious Sam - I think it
could be nice to have atmosphere like this.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 5:11:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie wrote:
> Marcus .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>> For those who have no idea what I'm talking about:
>> http://chaos.magma-net.pl/doom/ Go play! :) 
>>
> Here are some of my impressions after one evening with this:
>
>
> Nice features:
>
> 1) Climate is ok and bloody.

:-)

> 2) Reality in guns handling.
> 3) Monsters need to reload guns too, their

Cause there is no difference between handling the monsters and player.

> 1) There is very little use from collecting pistols and others.
> Requests: weapon break down, explode, command to take out ammo and
> throw duplicate weapon away,

I just like all that junk lying around. As for take out ammo -- this is a
thing that needs to be done deliberately, or else 10mm ammo couldn't be any
problem at all (all those pistols and chainguns lying around...)

> add upgrade modifications like silencer,
> scope, extended magazine etc.

Yes, this is a pointed out RFE that I'm going to take into account :-D

> 2) Too short equipment list, making player do annoying things like
> decisions what ammo is the least valuable, or doing stashes of things
> wanted to pickup before leaving the area.

This is a tactical decision ;-). It makes you make strategic choices of
inventory management, just like in Angband.

> I guess equipment two times
> bigger doesn't hurt. Another solution: stash all the ammo together
> and use weight based limitation rather than number of items
> limitation. This is much better as eliminates need to search how many
> groups of 10mm ammo character have.

I may show the total of ammo for the wielded weapon on the screen.

> 3) Equipment and powerups of known location should be seen on map
> after leaving area.

This will be hard to implement -- what to do if a monster picks up given
equipment?

> 4) in the traits screen it'd be nice to add description of traits with
> current effect.

??

> Also describe better the health and toHit traits - it
> is unclear what is the base value and how it works.

Ok.

> The same for
> berserk - I guess it doubles the melee damage apart from healing up
> to 100%?

It also makes you a little faster, adds toHit in melee, and reduces damage
taken.

> 5) Add 'wait one turn' command (or until monster shows itself\makes
> move).

Is in unreleased 096 already.

> 6) Inventory sorting, add subcategories (weapons, armour, ammo,
> miscellaneous)

They are sorted, aren't they? Hmm, or maybe not...

> 8) Melee fight is useless as most monsters shoot and there is not
> enough bonus to using even chainsaw. Berserk is too short

Well, I know a few people who say that Breserk +Chainsaw is way to powerful,
and others who say that melee at all is too powerful, so I take your comment
as a good sign of balance ;-).

> 9) Longer blink on tiles where shotgun hits. What is the mechanic of
> (double) shotgun fire?

Fires a cone -- everything in the cone is hit. Damage degrades over
distance.
Double shotgun = double damage.

> 12) Powerups are very similar to each other in graphics.

? They're supposed to be -- it's a powerup char after all?

> 13) In chained foo special level it should be impossible to change
> weapon from chainsaw. Also a lot more walls to hide from shooters and
> jump suddenly on them cutting into meat.

Notice that you may charge them without bothering about their puny shots --
this shows the power of Breserk+Chainsaw.

> 14) In my feeling levels are too open,

??

> it is also easy to break walls
> that eliminates strategy related to wall hiding.

??

> 15) Rockets don't explode on walls? Eliminates very nice strategy of
> shooting the walls and catching monsters in blasts.

It's fixed in 096.

> 16) Double pistols could be very interesting (Unreal Tournament
> patent) - doubles damage would make "Son of a gun" trait not a dead
> one perhaps. Right now pistol is useless comparing to chaingun for
> example.

Will be fixed ;-).

> 17) I've got a feeling that plasma gun is too weak comparing to
> chaingun.

Most people noted that plasmagun is overpowered! It will change tough, with
the introduction of monster armour in 096.

> Questions:
> 1) What is the relation between character sight range (modified by
> Cateye or not) and monster seeing range?

None. ;) 

> 2) I suppose -20% per level to reload time for example is applied at
> each level separately (so 100%, 80%, 64%, 52.8%, 42.24% and so on)?

Uuuh, I don't remember, would have to dive into the sources. But I think
it's 100%, 80%, 60% ...

> 3) Isn't it faster to take another loaded shotgun from inventory than
> reload the shotgun currently wielded?

Yes. And in 096 the effect will be even more visible. This isn't so
important as in the case of rocket launchers though.

> Is double barrel shotgun
> reloading slower than one barrelled?

No. Come to think of it, it will be.

> What are the exact time values
> for reloading of weapons?

1.2 of average move as for the 095 release. This will increase to 195 in
096. Also in the future the reload times will be varied depending on the
weapon -- 1.5 for pistol, 1.2 for shotgun, 1.6 for dshotgun, 3.0 for
chaingun and plasmagun, and 2.0 for rocket launcher. This will make carrying
another instance of the weapon sometimes tacticaly useful (if you can't hide
to reload).

> 4) I don't think berserk with all in red is a good idea, there is no
> indication of view range and game is full of red things, acid and
> lava are not visible when berserk.

Your perception is quite bad when bloodlust catches your soul!

> 5) Boots doesn't contribute to damage reduction from normal damage,
> except lava/acid walking, I assume?

Yes.

> 6) What amount of experience is required for the next levels? What
> function it follows?

In 096 it will have percentage indicators so it will be all clear.

> Bugs and inconsequences:
>
> 1) Very annoying something that summons a hundred of hell barons,
> claiming that player entered cheat code (phew) when simply pressed
> 'd'. You are happy not being close enough to be strangled for this
> "feature" (260% health, all weapons, unbeatable munchkin at DL 16)

Uhh. You tapped in iddqd accidentaly ;-). Hmm, as it happend the second time
accidentaly, then I'll make a confirmation message beforehand.

> 2) Diagonally character is able to aim over it's sighting range.
> Aiming is strange, sometimes although the line is partly red it works
> perfectly and hits the monster that shouldn't be hit according to the
> trajectory shown.

I'll fix that somewhere in the future.

> 3) Double shotgun and plasma rifle descriptions too long, no place
> for ammo (place the level no. just after the name of level Phobos
> Base lvl 8)?

hmm. ok.

> 4) Add another key bind to double shotgun, or make it activate before
> single shotgun, now character loses time to change them.

Yes, I'll see to that.

> 5) Impossible to change to chainsaw when not having axe. The same with
> shotguns.

Yes, I know -- its one of the most reported bugs.

> 6) Should take by preference the most loaded weapon when pressed
> weapon shortcut key.

It doesn't?

> 7) Effects of barrel explosion update the map beyond viewing range.

?

> 8) Supercharge Globe reduces health to 200% when above. Large Healing
> Globe adds some, up to 128 - not very intuitive.

Second most reported bug -- this one's fixed in 096 -- also in 096 HP over
100% degrades over time.

> 9) Walls are "blooded" from two sides, when should be only from one.
> ;-)

Well :-)

> 10) 260% (256+4) health is shown as "almost dead" :-)

Third most reported bug :-D. Fixed in 096 ;-).

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 5:14:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>>> This is purely personal preference, but I've never liked obfuscation
>>> as a method of design - if the players care enough, they will
>>> experiment and share the information, or hack the game itself to
>>> uncover the information.
>> That would be nice if players would start writing Spoilers and Tatic
>> guidesfor DoomRL I would be honoured :-D
>
> :-) For this you need to reveal some things and increase the mechanics
> complexity. I've got a feeling that with present mechanics game is too
> long, there is not a lot of action\strategy around. With current
> complexity of game 8-10 levels should be enough, I didn't notice any
> new things after.

Oh don't worry I'll see to raising the complexity ;-).

>>> Perhaps increased damage from 'flame'
>>> attacks while on lava, decreased damage from same on water.
>> Water will have a use when I introduce the last weapon for DoomRL...
>
> Let me guess: SharkGun ? ;-P

No, lighting gun ;-).

>> Some of the special level doors will only appear if you pull a
>> certain lever. Also sometimes levers will make ammo fall from the
>> celing ;-)
>
> Didn't noticed any of these effects and I'm discouraged to pull levers
> also, as it gives only pain (lava, crushing the walls) while ammo is
> not a problem in this game.

Plasma and rockets too? Well, It will be ;-)

>> Maybe weapon upgrades? You can only mount one of them in one
>> weapon...
>
> This would add sense to having multiple weapons of the same type but
> with different upgrades. I like this idea in connection with increased
> inventory.

No increased inventory ;-).

>> I just have to keep eye not to reduce the pace of the game, for as
>> for now it feels realy good..
>
> Having experience with Crawl - DoomRL is rather peaceful - if you
> don't move you are not threatened (except Hell Arena maybe), monsters
> are not bloodthirsty and attack rarely if you are not close. From
> such title I expect danger in the first place, when the character is
> at edge, lacks ammo, weapons break down and such.

I'll see to that, I promise ;-)
Hey, it was intended as a test side project not a game ;-)

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 5:27:58 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote in
news:cs8gbs$s1$1@inews.gazeta.pl:
> Loonie wrote:
>> 1) There is very little use from collecting pistols and others.
>> Requests: weapon break down, explode, command to take out ammo and
>> throw duplicate weapon away,
>
> I just like all that junk lying around. As for take out ammo -- this
> is a thing that needs to be done deliberately, or else 10mm ammo
> couldn't be any problem at all (all those pistols and chainguns lying
> around...)

I think that's what people _are_ asking for. Not that they automaticlly
get ammo out of guns they already have one of, but that they can get ammo
out of guns at all. As far as I can tell, there's no way to unload a loaded
weapon in the game, unless you count "shooting until it's empty".
January 14, 2005 6:35:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> 2) Reality in guns handling.
>> 3) Monsters need to reload guns too, their
> Cause there is no difference between handling the monsters and player.

Nice, especially when they will take powerups. ;-)


>> 2) Too short equipment list, making player do annoying things like
>> decisions what ammo is the least valuable, or doing stashes of things
>> wanted to pickup before leaving the area.
> This is a tactical decision ;-). It makes you make strategic choices of
> inventory management, just like in Angband.

This is stressing for me, I consider myself as a insane perfectionist and I
don't like inventory strategy. Anyway it's not realistic if you can carry 7
weapons 200 kg of ammo and so on. Why bother the player with unhappy
decisions? The situation could be ameliorated by dropping axe and one
barrelled shotgun, but not much. Inventory strategy is not interesting,
IMVHO game *should* offer more strategy opportunities connected to
gameplay: fighting, character development. Inventory strategy is not
interesting at all to me - if I've found a thing I want to have possibility
of using it.


>> I guess equipment two times
>> bigger doesn't hurt. Another solution: stash all the ammo together
>> and use weight based limitation rather than number of items
>> limitation. This is much better as eliminates need to search how many
>> groups of 10mm ammo character have.
> I may show the total of ammo for the wielded weapon on the screen.

I don't like the idea of multiple ammo slots in inventory.


>> 3) Equipment and powerups of known location should be seen on map
>> after leaving area.
> This will be hard to implement -- what to do if a monster picks up given
> equipment?

According to Crawl for example - they disappear when they are in character
viewing range. On the other hand - it is nice to know "where is the darned
health globe that I've left for after?". For implementation: it could be
treated as walls I guess.


>> 4) in the traits screen it'd be nice to add description of traits with
>> current effect.
> ??

After pressing 'e' player has equipment and traits mentioned but not
descripted and explained.


>> 6) Inventory sorting, add subcategories (weapons, armour, ammo,
>> miscellaneous)
> They are sorted, aren't they? Hmm, or maybe not...

:-)


>> 8) Melee fight is useless as most monsters shoot and there is not
>> enough bonus to using even chainsaw. Berserk is too short
> Well, I know a few people who say that Breserk +Chainsaw is way to powerful,
> and others who say that melee at all is too powerful, so I take your comment
> as a good sign of balance ;-).

Well I can shot a guy in one\two turns with chaingun or plasma, why run to
him for eight turns when he fires at me and activate other monsters that
are near him? Powerful - maybe I didn't tried a lot as berzerk is not long
enough to catch up monsters (except if it prolonged when killing) and
chainsaw damage is equal to plain shotgun 4d4 AFAIR. Maybe it's better for
tougher monsters after.


>> 9) Longer blink on tiles where shotgun hits. What is the mechanic of
>> (double) shotgun fire?
>
> Fires a cone -- everything in the cone is hit. Damage degrades over
> distance.
> Double shotgun = double damage.

Nice.


>> 12) Powerups are very similar to each other in graphics.
>
> ? They're supposed to be -- it's a powerup char after all?

Well, you don't have enough choice anyway in fact using ASCII.


>> 13) In chained foo special level it should be impossible to change
>> weapon from chainsaw. Also a lot more walls to hide from shooters and
>> jump suddenly on them cutting into meat.
> Notice that you may charge them without bothering about their puny shots --
> this shows the power of Breserk+Chainsaw.

For me it's more intuitive to shot them down in the open.


>> 14) In my feeling levels are too open,
> ??

Too little walls or obstacles.


>> it is also easy to break walls
>> that eliminates strategy related to wall hiding.
> ??

Example: shot rocket, hide behind wall, reload, come back, repeat.


>> 17) I've got a feeling that plasma gun is too weak comparing to
>> chaingun.
> Most people noted that plasmagun is overpowered! It will change tough, with
> the introduction of monster armour in 096.

Looking at numbers: you are right. Apparently I don't use plasma on weak
monsters. :-)


>> Questions:
>> 1) What is the relation between character sight range (modified by
>> Cateye or not) and monster seeing range?
> None. ;) 

Then how they know who hits them when they don't see character? They cannot
also shot unseen target as accurately as seen. Unless they see without
limitations, in which case they should attack character at once (supposing
they are really hell monsters).


>> 2) I suppose -20% per level to reload time for example is applied at
>> each level separately (so 100%, 80%, 64%, 52.8%, 42.24% and so on)?
>
> Uuuh, I don't remember, would have to dive into the sources. But I think
> it's 100%, 80%, 60% ...

.... 40%, 20%, 0%, -20% ? ;->


>> 3) Isn't it faster to take another loaded shotgun from inventory than
>> reload the shotgun currently wielded?
> Yes. And in 096 the effect will be even more visible. This isn't so
> important as in the case of rocket launchers though.

This is very bad for gameplay IMO, as the optimal strategy is to carry a
lot of loaded guns and change, that will explode with small inventory. And
is boring, unless quick key change automatically to a loaded gun (of the
same type).


>> 4) I don't think berserk with all in red is a good idea, there is no
>> indication of view range and game is full of red things, acid and
>> lava are not visible when berserk.
> Your perception is quite bad when bloodlust catches your soul!

Come to think about it - yes, but there may be exception for viewing range
IMO.


>> Bugs and inconsequences:
>>
>> 1) Very annoying something that summons a hundred of hell barons,
>> claiming that player entered cheat code (phew) when simply pressed
>> 'd'. You are happy not being close enough to be strangled for this
>> "feature" (260% health, all weapons, unbeatable munchkin at DL 16)
> Uhh. You tapped in iddqd accidentaly ;-). Hmm, as it happend the second time
> accidentaly, then I'll make a confirmation message beforehand.

I did it two times in four games, and I don't remember myself using 'q'
anyway, so I guess your code may be buggy with that.


>> 6) Should take by preference the most loaded weapon when pressed
>> weapon shortcut key.
> It doesn't?

Don't think so, I remember having five pistols in this some fully loaded
and changing to some 3/6. Not sure though.


>> 7) Effects of barrel explosion update the map beyond viewing range.
> ?

If barrel crushed down wall that is beyond viewing range of character, map
is immediately updated, however it is impossible to predict the effect
(anyway it's intuitively suspicious). That occurs independently of having
computer map of level.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl
January 14, 2005 6:42:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> Didn't noticed any of these effects and I'm discouraged to pull levers
>> also, as it gives only pain (lava, crushing the walls) while ammo is
>> not a problem in this game.
> Plasma and rockets too? Well, It will be ;-)

Rockets - no problem, plasma - finally yes, but it mostly comes from lack
of possibility of getting ammo from gun, so I walked with four loaded
plasmaguns found and have to shot them out to drop it. Another inventory
problem. :-\


> No increased inventory ;-).

I guess you played Adom a lot? ;->


>> Having experience with Crawl - DoomRL is rather peaceful - if you
>> don't move you are not threatened (except Hell Arena maybe), monsters
>> are not bloodthirsty and attack rarely if you are not close. From
>> such title I expect danger in the first place, when the character is
>> at edge, lacks ammo, weapons break down and such.
> I'll see to that, I promise ;-)
> Hey, it was intended as a test side project not a game ;-)

Well, too bad then ;-)

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl
Anonymous
January 15, 2005 10:34:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Zereth wrote:

>"Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote in
>news:cs8gbs$s1$1@inews.gazeta.pl:
>
>
>>Loonie wrote:
>>
>>
>>>1) There is very little use from collecting pistols and others.
>>>Requests: weapon break down, explode, command to take out ammo and
>>>throw duplicate weapon away,
>>>
>>>
>>I just like all that junk lying around. As for take out ammo -- this
>>is a thing that needs to be done deliberately, or else 10mm ammo
>>couldn't be any problem at all (all those pistols and chainguns lying
>>around...)
>>
>>
>
>I think that's what people _are_ asking for. Not that they automaticlly
>get ammo out of guns they already have one of, but that they can get ammo
>out of guns at all. As far as I can tell, there's no way to unload a loaded
>weapon in the game, unless you count "shooting until it's empty".
>
This kind of irks me too. It's especially annoying with plasma rifles, as I
seem to find them much more often than power cells. I'm fairly sure that in
the original Doom, picking up a weapon you already had would still give you
some ammunition for it; perhaps this could be implented here as well. :) 
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 2:23:50 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:45:10 -0500, "Marcus" <akf@afdslkj.com> wrote:

>Display the radius of the potential explosion for a Barrel when you target
>it

No way! That would reduce the number of YASDs.

R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 4:37:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 15:35:44 +0100, Loonie <loonie2@tlen.pl> wrote:

>>> 7) Effects of barrel explosion update the map beyond viewing range.
>> ?
>
>If barrel crushed down wall that is beyond viewing range of character, map
>is immediately updated, however it is impossible to predict the effect
>(anyway it's intuitively suspicious). That occurs independently of having
>computer map of level.

Uh, the explosion super-illuminates the area? You hear the wall fall?

R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 8:51:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>> Didn't noticed any of these effects and I'm discouraged to pull
>>> levers also, as it gives only pain (lava, crushing the walls) while
>>> ammo is not a problem in this game.
>> Plasma and rockets too? Well, It will be ;-)
>
> Rockets - no problem, plasma - finally yes, but it mostly comes from
> lack of possibility of getting ammo from gun, so I walked with four
> loaded plasmaguns found and have to shot them out to drop it. Another
> inventory problem. :-\

Ok, I'll see if I can provide a Unload button. How would you like it to
function?

>> No increased inventory ;-).
>
> I guess you played Adom a lot? ;->

I did ;-). But that will not be the case ;-).

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 8:53:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

>> Hmm, maybe -- that's nice. But on the other hand it would work only
>> with backpack full.
>
> Why not have it work that way always? If you select a weapon/armor
> slot, and you have another usable item in inventory, it just displays
> a list of possible swaps/equips (rather than once to deequip, once to
> equip).

Because sometimes you just want to deequip :-).

> If levers were considerably more 'controlled', I'd find them much more
> interesting. Eg, first off implement monster swarms + secret monster
> rooms + almost *always* have good powerups in monster rooms, then
> usually have levers either a) access a monster swarm b) a secret room
> c) change tactical terrain, and levers would be cool and useful. Oh,
> and you might want to rename them to buttons or something similar, to
> match Doom a bit more closely :) 

Ok, but that'll have to wait for the level generation overhaul.

>> Maybe weapon upgrades? You can only mount one of them in one
>> weapon...
>
> My thought was definitely only *one* 'upgrade' per weapon type.

It will be so ;-).

> use. If weapons start getting generated with single attributes later
> in the game (particularly weapons located behind secret doors that
> are opened by levers and full of monsters, or out on lava islands
> guarded by five barons...), you'd have real incentive to use all
> levers/buttons, explore levels fully, etc, BUT, you wouldn't always
> get the 'perfect' weapon. You'd get an extended clip pistol, an
> overcharged plasma rifle, a longer range chaingun, a scoped shotgun,

This last one seems silly ;-).

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
January 16, 2005 8:53:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>>> Hmm, maybe -- that's nice. But on the other hand it would work only
>>> with backpack full.
>>
>> Why not have it work that way always? If you select a weapon/armor
>> slot, and you have another usable item in inventory, it just displays
>> a list of possible swaps/equips (rather than once to deequip, once to
>> equip).
>
> Because sometimes you just want to deequip :-).

*bonk self* Ah yes. You could put a 'non' option in the list. What do you
wish to equip? a) Chaingun b) Plasma Rifle b) Rocket Launcher -) Nothing

>> use. If weapons start getting generated with single attributes later
>> in the game (particularly weapons located behind secret doors that
>> are opened by levers and full of monsters, or out on lava islands
>> guarded by five barons...), you'd have real incentive to use all
>> levers/buttons, explore levels fully, etc, BUT, you wouldn't always
>> get the 'perfect' weapon. You'd get an extended clip pistol, an
>> overcharged plasma rifle, a longer range chaingun, a scoped shotgun,
>
> This last one seems silly ;-).

Ah indeed. Sabot shells then ;)  Long range concentrated slugs, surprisingly
accurate in shotguns.
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 8:54:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:45:10 -0500, "Marcus" <akf@afdslkj.com> wrote:
>
>> Display the radius of the potential explosion for a Barrel when you
>> target it
>
> No way! That would reduce the number of YASDs.

:-D

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 8:59:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>>> 2) Reality in guns handling.
>>> 3) Monsters need to reload guns too, their
>> Cause there is no difference between handling the monsters and
>> player.
>
> Nice, especially when they will take powerups. ;-)

Oh, that would be Overkill, I wouldn't allow that :-)

>> This is a tactical decision ;-). It makes you make strategic choices
>> of inventory management, just like in Angband.
>
> This is stressing for me, I consider myself as a insane perfectionist
> and I don't like inventory strategy. Anyway it's not realistic if you
> can carry 7 weapons 200 kg of ammo and so on. Why bother the player
> with unhappy decisions? The situation could be ameliorated by
> dropping axe and one barrelled shotgun, but not much. Inventory
> strategy is not interesting, IMVHO game *should* offer more strategy
> opportunities connected to gameplay: fighting, character development.
> Inventory strategy is not interesting at all to me - if I've found a
> thing I want to have possibility of using it.


Many people like or even love invetory strategy. So for now on I will leave
it as it is.

>>> 4) in the traits screen it'd be nice to add description of traits
>>> with current effect.
>> ??
>
> After pressing 'e' player has equipment and traits mentioned but not
> descripted and explained.

Hmm. Ok.

>>> 8) Melee fight is useless as most monsters shoot and there is not
>>> enough bonus to using even chainsaw. Berserk is too short
>> Well, I know a few people who say that Breserk +Chainsaw is way to
>> powerful, and others who say that melee at all is too powerful, so I
>> take your comment as a good sign of balance ;-).
>
> Well I can shot a guy in one\two turns with chaingun or plasma, why
> run to him for eight turns when he fires at me and activate other
> monsters that are near him?

Because you wont be able to shoot him with plasma/chaingun in 1/2 turns
anymore ;-)

> Powerful - maybe I didn't tried a lot as
> berzerk is not long enough to catch up monsters (except if it
> prolonged when killing) and chainsaw damage is equal to plain shotgun
> 4d4 AFAIR.

No. Chainsaw is 4d6 (+50% for breserk!)

>>> 14) In my feeling levels are too open,
>> ??
>
> Too little walls or obstacles.

Will have to wait for the level generation overhaul.

>>> 2) I suppose -20% per level to reload time for example is applied at
>>> each level separately (so 100%, 80%, 64%, 52.8%, 42.24% and so on)?
>>
>> Uuuh, I don't remember, would have to dive into the sources. But I
>> think it's 100%, 80%, 60% ...
>
> ... 40%, 20%, 0%, -20% ? ;->

You didn't notice the Level 3 cap on most Traits, did you? ;-)

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Anonymous
January 16, 2005 9:21:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Zereth wrote:
> "Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote in
> news:cs8gbs$s1$1@inews.gazeta.pl:
>> Loonie wrote:
>>> 1) There is very little use from collecting pistols and others.
>>> Requests: weapon break down, explode, command to take out ammo and
>>> throw duplicate weapon away,
>>
>> I just like all that junk lying around. As for take out ammo -- this
>> is a thing that needs to be done deliberately, or else 10mm ammo
>> couldn't be any problem at all (all those pistols and chainguns lying
>> around...)
>
> I think that's what people _are_ asking for. Not that they
> automaticlly get ammo out of guns they already have one of, but that
> they can get ammo out of guns at all. As far as I can tell, there's
> no way to unload a loaded weapon in the game, unless you count
> "shooting until it's empty".

Yeah, ok.
regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
January 17, 2005 3:57:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> Ok, I'll see if I can provide a Unload button. How would you like it to
> function?

Would surely add to playability IMO.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 3:57:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Marcus wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>> This last one seems silly ;-).
>
> Ah indeed. Sabot shells then ;)  Long range concentrated slugs,
> surprisingly accurate in shotguns.

This would provide a lot of problems though - with reload, with shells and
the like ;-(

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
January 17, 2005 4:38:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Marcus wrote:
>> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>>> This last one seems silly ;-).
>>
>> Ah indeed. Sabot shells then ;)  Long range concentrated slugs,
>> surprisingly accurate in shotguns.
>
> This would provide a lot of problems though - with reload, with
> shells and the like ;-(
>
> regards,
> Kornel Kisielewicz

Oh forget extra ammo :)  You could completely cheat - the 'Sabot' shotgun
automatically uses regular shells as sabot shells.

Speaking of shotguns, I really wish you hadn't added the Assault Shotgun
:(  It completely obviates the original.

One possibility, if you want to distinguish the Shotgun from the Double
would be to give the Shotgun 8 shots before it needs to be 'reloaded'. I
realize this strays from 'canon' slightly, but less so than the Assault
Shotgun imo. The justification here being that while playing Doom, you
always used the Shotgun against more numerous, slightly weaker opponents,
due to the rapid recocking time.
This would feel somewhat more similar to the game.

Another possibility would be having the reload integrated into the firing
rate, so that reload Traits etc still modify it, but it functionally has no
reloading at all. You just keep shooting - which is exactly what you did in
the game ;) 

Thoughts?
January 17, 2005 9:00:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>> Cause there is no difference between handling the monsters and
>>> player.
>> Nice, especially when they will take powerups. ;-)
> Oh, that would be Overkill, I wouldn't allow that :-)

Why not, the solution then is to run away (however in your game there is
not much space to run :-)


> Many people like or even love invetory strategy. So for now on I will leave
> it as it is.

As you like. With unload it will not be as bad anyway.


>> ... 40%, 20%, 0%, -20% ? ;->
> You didn't notice the Level 3 cap on most Traits, did you? ;-)

Nope. :-)

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl
Anonymous
January 17, 2005 10:19:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>
>>>> Cause there is no difference between handling the monsters and
>>>> player.
>>> Nice, especially when they will take powerups. ;-)
>> Oh, that would be Overkill, I wouldn't allow that :-)
>
> Why not, the solution then is to run away (however in your game there
> is not much space to run :-)

OMG it's a Hellbaron on Invulnerability!

>> Many people like or even love invetory strategy. So for now on I
>> will leave it as it is.
>
> As you like. With unload it will not be as bad anyway.

Ho do you like the Unload interface?

>>> ... 40%, 20%, 0%, -20% ? ;->
>> You didn't notice the Level 3 cap on most Traits, did you? ;-)
>
> Nope. :-)

See :-D

regards,
Kornel Kisielewic
January 17, 2005 10:19:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Loonie wrote:
>> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>
>> As you like. With unload it will not be as bad anyway.
>
> How do you like the Unload interface?

Hate it :(  Appreciate the function though :)  Any chance you could allow
'U'nload to work on the gun *in your square*? Less inventory fiddling for
the same effect - particularly annoying when your inventory is full atm.
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 1:34:45 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Marcus wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>> Marcus wrote:
>>> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>>>> This last one seems silly ;-).
>>>
>>> Ah indeed. Sabot shells then ;)  Long range concentrated slugs,
>>> surprisingly accurate in shotguns.
>>
>> This would provide a lot of problems though - with reload, with
>> shells and the like ;-(
>>
>> regards,
>> Kornel Kisielewicz
>
> Oh forget extra ammo :)  You could completely cheat - the 'Sabot'
> shotgun automatically uses regular shells as sabot shells.
>
> Speaking of shotguns, I really wish you hadn't added the Assault
> Shotgun :(  It completely obviates the original.

Isnpt that the way you wanted shotguns to work??

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
January 18, 2005 1:34:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Marcus wrote:
>> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>>> Marcus wrote:
>>>> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>>>>> This last one seems silly ;-).
>>>>
>>>> Ah indeed. Sabot shells then ;)  Long range concentrated slugs,
>>>> surprisingly accurate in shotguns.
>>>
>>> This would provide a lot of problems though - with reload, with
>>> shells and the like ;-(
>>>
>>> regards,
>>> Kornel Kisielewicz
>>
>> Oh forget extra ammo :)  You could completely cheat - the 'Sabot'
>> shotgun automatically uses regular shells as sabot shells.
>>
>> Speaking of shotguns, I really wish you hadn't added the Assault
>> Shotgun :(  It completely obviates the original.
>
> Isnpt that the way you wanted shotguns to work??
>

To some extent, but why not stick with 'canon', and just play with the
functionality, so that the Shotgun retains its utility vs the Double Barrel
(better for masses of slightly weaker foes), rather than adding a completely
new weapon that obsoletes the existing Shotgun completely, and isn't
actually from Doom. Just my opinion of course :) 
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 1:36:27 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Marcus wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>> Loonie wrote:
>>> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>>
>>> As you like. With unload it will not be as bad anyway.
>>
>> How do you like the Unload interface?
>
> Hate it :(  Appreciate the function though :)  Any chance you could
> allow 'U'nload to work on the gun *in your square*? Less inventory
> fiddling for the same effect - particularly annoying when your
> inventory is full atm.

No ;-). I still think reaping existing guns for ammo should be reserved only
for BFGs and Plasmas, and this is what thi function is intended for. Do you
realy think you need more 10mm ammo? If so, then type "idkfa" in the game
;-).

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
January 18, 2005 1:36:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

>> Hate it :(  Appreciate the function though :)  Any chance you could
>> allow 'U'nload to work on the gun *in your square*? Less inventory
>> fiddling for the same effect - particularly annoying when your
>> inventory is full atm.
>
> No ;-). I still think reaping existing guns for ammo should be
> reserved only for BFGs and Plasmas, and this is what thi function is
> intended for. Do you realy think you need more 10mm ammo? If so, then
> type "idkfa" in the game ;-).
>
> regards,
> Kornel Kisielewicz

Surprisingly, sometimes yes. It gets pretty nasty deeper in the game now :) 
If you wanted to follow Doom, picking up a weapon would give you a 'base
load' of the ammo. As it is now, it is obviously more useful to unload
chainguns, plasma rifles (didn't find one at all last game! doh), and the
BFG. Pistols/Shotguns don't help much (though in Doom they'd give you a
'clip') each.

Regardless, it's just a micromanagement thing. If you *really* want to
restrict ammo to ONLY the found ammo (to allow you to control the rng
distribution %s more finely), that'd be fine, but if you don't mind allowing
weapons to be an extra source of ammo, please don't make it a user interface
issue for no reason :(  That's the thrust of my complaint. It takes a lot of
fiddling to unload, which could be solved by allowing you to strip ammo by
either a) picking up a weapon you already have, automatically unloading the
ammo into your inventory, and b) letting the U command work on an item on
the ground if one is present.
January 18, 2005 1:58:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>> Why not, the solution then is to run away (however in your game there
>> is not much space to run :-)
> OMG it's a Hellbaron on Invulnerability!

Charge.... eeee, I mean run man, ruuuuuuun!


>>> Many people like or even love invetory strategy. So for now on I
>>> will leave it as it is.
>> As you like. With unload it will not be as bad anyway.
> Ho do you like the Unload interface?

As I stated in other post it's not at all pleasant nor logical to use, and
seems to be very important feature as it triggered with capital 'U' so
requires a shift. ;-) Finally I used it not a lot of times as the plasma
rifles seem to be quite rare now, so I used it only several times,
especially when desperate with shotgun shells for a moment.

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 3:43:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Marcus wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>> Marcus wrote:
>>> Oh forget extra ammo :)  You could completely cheat - the 'Sabot'
>>> shotgun automatically uses regular shells as sabot shells.
>>>
>>> Speaking of shotguns, I really wish you hadn't added the Assault
>>> Shotgun :(  It completely obviates the original.
>>
>> Isnpt that the way you wanted shotguns to work??
>
> To some extent, but why not stick with 'canon', and just play with the
> functionality, so that the Shotgun retains its utility vs the Double
> Barrel (better for masses of slightly weaker foes), rather than
> adding a completely new weapon that obsoletes the existing Shotgun
> completely, and isn't actually from Doom. Just my opinion of course :) 

I may degrade assault shotgun a little, but it stays.

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 3:44:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Marcus wrote:
>>> Hate it :(  Appreciate the function though :)  Any chance you could
>>> allow 'U'nload to work on the gun *in your square*? Less inventory
>>> fiddling for the same effect - particularly annoying when your
>>> inventory is full atm.
>>
>> No ;-). I still think reaping existing guns for ammo should be
>> reserved only for BFGs and Plasmas, and this is what thi function is
>> intended for. Do you realy think you need more 10mm ammo? If so, then
>> type "idkfa" in the game ;-).
>>
>> regards,
>> Kornel Kisielewicz
>
> Surprisingly, sometimes yes. It gets pretty nasty deeper in the game
> now :)  If you wanted to follow Doom, picking up a weapon would give
> you a 'base load' of the ammo. As it is now, it is obviously more
> useful to unload chainguns, plasma rifles (didn't find one at all
> last game! doh), and the BFG. Pistols/Shotguns don't help much
> (though in Doom they'd give you a 'clip') each.

Urgh. It seems I will have to surrender a little bit. Let's say you will be
able to 'U'nload weapon unload weapons on ground, will that be ok?

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
January 18, 2005 3:44:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Marcus wrote:
>> Surprisingly, sometimes yes. It gets pretty nasty deeper in the game
>> now :)  If you wanted to follow Doom, picking up a weapon would give
>> you a 'base load' of the ammo. As it is now, it is obviously more
>> useful to unload chainguns, plasma rifles (didn't find one at all
>> last game! doh), and the BFG. Pistols/Shotguns don't help much
>> (though in Doom they'd give you a 'clip') each.
>
> Urgh. It seems I will have to surrender a little bit. Let's say you
> will be able to 'U'nload weapon unload weapons on ground, will that
> be ok?
>
> regards,
> Kornel Kisielewicz

Better, for sure :)  I'd prefer a key like 's', or remappable keys, and of
course the auto-stripping weapons that you already have with 'g', but that
might be a pain to code. At least it removes the fiddling with inventory to
strip a weapon, so yay! :) 
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 3:45:39 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>>> Many people like or even love invetory strategy. So for now on I
>>>> will leave it as it is.
>>> As you like. With unload it will not be as bad anyway.
>> Ho do you like the Unload interface?
>
> As I stated in other post it's not at all pleasant nor logical to
> use, and seems to be very important feature as it triggered with
> capital 'U' so requires a shift. ;-)

Propose a non-capital letter ;-).

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
January 18, 2005 3:45:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Loonie wrote:
>> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>>>> Many people like or even love invetory strategy. So for now on I
>>>>> will leave it as it is.
>>>> As you like. With unload it will not be as bad anyway.
>>> Ho do you like the Unload interface?
>>
>> As I stated in other post it's not at all pleasant nor logical to
>> use, and seems to be very important feature as it triggered with
>> capital 'U' so requires a shift. ;-)
>
> Propose a non-capital letter ;-).
>
> regards,
> Kornel Kisielewicz

Remappable keys? :D 

My favorite would be picking up a weapon you already have unloading the
weapon (that way it'd just be 'g' most of the time), but um, what's
available on the left side... *looks around*

s, for s(trip) weapon?
Anonymous
January 18, 2005 9:56:03 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Marcus wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>> Loonie wrote:
>>> Kornel Kisielewicz .-- .-. --- - . ---...
>>>>>> Many people like or even love invetory strategy. So for now on I
>>>>>> will leave it as it is.
>>>>> As you like. With unload it will not be as bad anyway.
>>>> Ho do you like the Unload interface?
>>>
>>> As I stated in other post it's not at all pleasant nor logical to
>>> use, and seems to be very important feature as it triggered with
>>> capital 'U' so requires a shift. ;-)
>>
>> Propose a non-capital letter ;-).
>>
>> regards,
>> Kornel Kisielewicz
>
> Remappable keys? :D 

Will be in the future.

> My favorite would be picking up a weapon you already have unloading
> the weapon (that way it'd just be 'g' most of the time),

Don't push it ;-). You know I did a compromise anyway ;-).

> but um,
> what's available on the left side... *looks around*
> s, for s(trip) weapon?

Hmm...

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz
!