[Crawl] White/brown stairs, still mysterious

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

I still wonder whether there is a functional difference between white
and brown stairs. Stairs in general sometimes behave more like magic
portals rather than common stairs (e.g. if you go down and take the same
'stairs' up again, you don't necessarily end on the stairs where you
come from). This behavior can be found on brown as on white stairs as
well.
So if there is a difference at all between brown and white stairs, it
obviously has nothing to do with their connectivity (what I thought at
first after being missguided by some older postings).

Rubinstein

 

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bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 11:14:59 PM bork 1/18/2005 bork bork:

> I still wonder whether there is a functional difference between white
> and brown stairs. Stairs in general sometimes behave more like magic
> portals rather than common stairs (e.g. if you go down and take the same
> 'stairs' up again, you don't necessarily end on the stairs where you
> come from). This behavior can be found on brown as on white stairs as
> well.
> So if there is a difference at all between brown and white stairs, it
> obviously has nothing to do with their connectivity (what I thought at
> first after being missguided by some older postings).
>
> Rubinstein

Ooh, Crawl posts! Crawl posts! Finally a chance to strike back against the
DoomRL invasion!

My experience is that it really does relate to connectivity. It's a shame I'm
not on Linux; otherwise I'd ask you for a sample save file where two white
stairs are not connected to each other. The only exceptions I can think of,
in my experience and understanding, are:

- if a brown stair takes you to a white stair, the white stair will take you
back to its connected white stair, so in this case a white stair is not
taking you back to the stairs you came down/up.
- if a yellow stair (a branch exit) takes you to a white stair and you go
back down that white stair, you may not end up on the same yellow stair
(branches have 3 exits, but only one also serves as the entrance).

And of course, one stair's position on a level has nothing to do with its
"partner's" position on the level to which it connects.

But a trip into white stairs behaving like a trip into a magic portal? I
really haven't seen that! I really am convinced that yes, the difference
between browns stairs and white stairs *is* in connectivity.

Erik

 

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Rubinstein wrote:
> I still wonder whether there is a functional difference between white
> and brown stairs.

Every dungeon level (excluding the bottom level of branches) has
excactly 3 pairs of white stairs (denoted by {}, () and [] in the map
file) and an indefinite number of brown (denoted by <>) ones. Each white
stair is connected to the same-type white stair on the next level while
every brown stair is connected to a random (at time of creation) white
stair.

> Stairs in general sometimes behave more like magic
> portals rather than common stairs (e.g. if you go down and take the same
> 'stairs' up again, you don't necessarily end on the stairs where you
> come from). This behavior can be found on brown as on white stairs as
> well.

I never had this behaviour on white stairs.

Lars

 

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On 19 Jan 2005 09:55:31 GMT, "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:

>Ooh, Crawl posts! Crawl posts! Finally a chance to strike back against the
>DoomRL invasion!

Try DoomRL, it's fun!

R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:57:40 +0100, Lars Kecke
<kecke@physik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:

>Rubinstein wrote:
>> I still wonder whether there is a functional difference between white
>> and brown stairs.
>
>Every dungeon level (excluding the bottom level of branches) has
>excactly 3 pairs of white stairs (denoted by {}, () and [] in the map
>file) and an indefinite number of brown (denoted by <>) ones. Each white
>stair is connected to the same-type white stair on the next level while
>every brown stair is connected to a random (at time of creation) white
>stair.

That is certainly the way it is *supposed* to work. However, there is
a history of reports that it does not always do so going back at least
the couple of years I've been paying attention to Crawl.

>> Stairs in general sometimes behave more like magic
>> portals rather than common stairs (e.g. if you go down and take the same
>> 'stairs' up again, you don't necessarily end on the stairs where you
>> come from). This behavior can be found on brown as on white stairs as
>> well.
>
>I never had this behaviour on white stairs.

It has, however, been reported fairly regularly, despite being
something that 90% of the time, at least, would go unnoticed. Unlike,
say, being dumped in the -1 level of the Orc Mines or likewise
escaping the Abyss inappropriately -- something that gets reported
about as often as the stair thing.

R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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Erik Piper wrote:
> bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 11:14:59 PM bork 1/18/2005 bork bork:
>
>> [functional difference between white and brown stairs?]
>> [...]
>> So if there is a difference at all between brown and white stairs, it
>> obviously has nothing to do with their connectivity (what I thought
>> at first after being missguided by some older postings).
>
> Ooh, Crawl posts! Crawl posts! Finally a chance to strike back against
> the DoomRL invasion!

Yes, all those spamming from the DoomRL people just means one: WAR!
C'mon Erik, you not even 'may' spam r.g.r.m with Crawl post, now you
*must*! ;-)

> My experience is that it really does relate to connectivity. It's a
> shame I'm not on Linux; otherwise I'd ask you for a sample save file
> where two white stairs are not connected to each other.

So I wasn't misguided by some older postings? But what else? Something
wrong with my compilation? The reason for my posting was exactly this
situation:
3 *white* (no doubt, I double checked) stairs, call them A, B, and C.
A and B were downstairs on the same level while C were upstairs on the
level below. Now A leads to C, but going upstairs on C leads to B. This
didn't seem to happen by chance, I tried this 3 times (because I
couldn't believe at first) with always the same result.

If it happens again (I'm sure it will) and this behavior is considered a
bug, anyone out there who wants to check my (Linux) save file?

Rubinstein

 

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bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 3:06:58 PM bork 1/19/2005 bork bork:

> Erik Piper wrote:

[...]

> > Ooh, Crawl posts! Crawl posts! Finally a chance to strike back against
> > the DoomRL invasion!
>
> Yes, all those spamming from the DoomRL people just means one: WAR!
> C'mon Erik, you not even 'may' spam r.g.r.m with Crawl post, now you
> *must*! ;-)

I'm all spammed out today: see http://roguebasin.swiki.net/17.



Check back tomorrow!

Erik

 

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bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 3:06:58 PM bork 1/19/2005 bork bork:

> Erik Piper wrote:

> So I wasn't misguided by some older postings? But what else? Something
> wrong with my compilation? The reason for my posting was exactly this
> situation:
> 3 white (no doubt, I double checked) stairs, call them A, B, and C.
> A and B were downstairs on the same level while C were upstairs on the
> level below. Now A leads to C, but going upstairs on C leads to B. This
> didn't seem to happen by chance, I tried this 3 times (because I
> couldn't believe at first) with always the same result.
>
> If it happens again (I'm sure it will) and this behavior is considered a
> bug, anyone out there who wants to check my (Linux) save file?
>
> Rubinstein

Hmmm... I just checked the source (my first time source diving EVER!) and it
seems that what the other guy wrote is spot on.

From maps.cc:

"
>< - extra stairs - you can leave level by these but will never be placed
on them from another level
}{ - stairs 82/86 - You must be able to reach these from each other
)( - stairs 83/87
][ - stairs 84/88
"

So if this isn't happening, it's a bug.

Erik

 

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Erik Piper wrote:
> bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 3:06:58 PM bork 1/19/2005 bork bork:
>
>> Erik Piper wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> 3 white (no doubt, I double checked) stairs, call them A, B, and C.
>> A and B were downstairs on the same level while C were upstairs on
>> the level below. Now A leads to C, but going upstairs on C leads to
>> B. This didn't seem to happen by chance, I tried this 3 times
>> (because I couldn't believe at first) with always the same result.
>>
>> If it happens again (I'm sure it will) and this behavior is
>> considered a bug, anyone out there who wants to check my (Linux) save
>> file?
>> [...]
>
> Hmmm... I just checked the source (my first time source diving EVER!)

Really? And it didn't bite you? ;-)

> and it seems that what the other guy wrote is spot on.
>
> From maps.cc:
>
> >< - extra stairs - you can leave level by these but will never be
> placed on them from another level

I think those are the brown stairs...

> }{ - stairs 82/86 - You must be able to reach these from each other

and these the white ones.

> )( - stairs 83/87
> ][ - stairs 84/88

but what's about them?

> So if this isn't happening, it's a bug.

Ok, that are just comments, though. If there's actually something wrong
with the code, those lines wouldn't reveal it. But I guess you just
tried to show how it's meant to be...

I also guess those symbols above are only used in the code cause I never
saw any other stairs then '><' (white, brown, yellow and red if I didn't
forgot one color). Only 'real' portals (e.g. to hell, pandemonium) have
other symbols here.

At last I should add that the described odd behavior in my original post
is pretty rare. Usually my stairs behave as they should. But *if* this
happenes, it could easily be missed, as you usually don't remember all
connections and also don't go down and up again immediately (though
that's what I usually do when exploring a new level, mainly to get an
early knowledge of retreat points *before* exploring the next level).

Rubinstein

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

In article <csmcgk$n8g$04$1@news.t-online.com>,
Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote:
// Erik Piper wrote:
// > }{ - stairs 82/86 - You must be able to reach these from each other
//
// and these the white ones.
//
// > )( - stairs 83/87
// > ][ - stairs 84/88
//
// but what's about them?

Those are the other white stone stairs. There are three pairs of them
that are matched one to one across levels. Any additional stairs are
brown rock stairs (aka ladders)... they don't expect to match up across
levels and thus end up hunting for an exit point in the right direction.

Sometimes, however, only 2 stairs actually get generated on the destination
level... in which case using stair #3 to get to that level has to hunt for
an exit point. Note that the elevator (the >< stairway that often runs
several levels), is made out of the first pair of stairs... and so it is
quite safe (that's also why it runs across levels).

// I also guess those symbols above are only used in the code cause I never
// saw any other stairs then '><' (white, brown, yellow and red if I didn't
// forgot one color). Only 'real' portals (e.g. to hell, pandemonium) have
// other symbols here.

You're looking at the vault specification code... it's very different.

Brent Ross

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On 19 Jan 2005 09:55:31 GMT, "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
>
>
>>Ooh, Crawl posts! Crawl posts! Finally a chance to strike back against the
>>DoomRL invasion!
>
>
> Try DoomRL, it's fun!

DOS only, right? Even if I wanted, I couldn't (Linux only).
And, from those DoomRL spammings during the last days I suppose it's
just another one of those community-driven, idea-exploding roguelikes.
No, thanks...

Rubinstein

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

In article <csmirg$1hv$04$1@news.t-online.com>,
Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote:
// R. Dan Henry wrote:
// >
// > Try DoomRL, it's fun!
//
// DOS only, right? Even if I wanted, I couldn't (Linux only).

That's pretty much what's kept me from trying it.

Has anybody tried it under DOSEmu?

Brent Ross

PS Maybe we need a call for rec.games.roguelike.doomrl?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Brent Ross wrote:

> Note that the elevator (the >< stairway that often runs
> several levels)

So that's no coincidence! Interesting! I've begun to notice it quite often
(especially in the branches), and I guess it only makes sense that it's no
coincidence since I've seen it several times... any memories of the decision to
include elevators? Or does that date back to the programming of Linley himself?

Erik

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry wrote:

> On 19 Jan 2005 09:55:31 GMT, "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
>
> > Ooh, Crawl posts! Crawl posts! Finally a chance to strike back against the
> > DoomRL invasion!
>
> Try DoomRL, it's fun!
>
> R. Dan Henry
> danhenry@inreach.com

I did. It is. In above text, procedure was:

insert_in_cheek(tongue)

Erik

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Brent Ross wrote:

> PS Maybe we need a call for rec.games.roguelike.doomrl?

My recollections of the threads from Crawl's heyday early in the century is
that it wasn't bloody likely even for Crawl. My recollections from a boom
period for "[ToME]" posts in r.g.r.angband is similar. Almost certainly a
wasted effort that will involve a flamewar and maybe a really bad day for a few
people whose day can be spoiled by a Usenet flamewar.

"People whose day can be spoiled by a [monitor shining angry words that
allegedly were written allegedly by people whom they have in any case never
met]"... MAN, 21st-century humanity is weird. ;-)

Erik

 

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Brent Ross wrote:
> In article <csmcgk$n8g$04$1@news.t-online.com>,
> Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote:
> // Erik Piper wrote:
> // > }{ - stairs 82/86 - You must be able to reach these from each
> // > other
> //
> // and these the white ones.
> //
> // > )( - stairs 83/87
> // > ][ - stairs 84/88
> //
> // but what's about them?
>
> Those are the other white stone stairs.
> [...]
>
> Sometimes, however, only 2 stairs actually get generated on the
> destination level... in which case using stair #3 to get to that level
> has to hunt for an exit point.

Thanks, that removes some of the mystery. As I understand it now, the
case I described is not really a bug (unless you consider the creation
of only 2 stairs a bug)?
Btw, so far I've never encountered one of the more serious bugs, where
the player is trapped on a '-1 level', knocking on wood...

Rubinstein

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

In article <358b26F4jd0feU1@individual.net>,
Erik Piper <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
// Brent Ross wrote:
//
// > Note that the elevator (the >< stairway that often runs
// > several levels)
//
// So that's no coincidence! Interesting! I've begun to notice it quite often
// (especially in the branches), and I guess it only makes sense that it's no
// coincidence since I've seen it several times... any memories of the decision to
// include elevators? Or does that date back to the programming of Linley himself?

It was done way back. From what I've gathered, it was done to try and
guarantee some level of connected stairways through spotty levels.

Brent Ross

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

In article <358c3gF4h4t7rU1@individual.net>,
Erik Piper <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
// Brent Ross wrote:
//
// > PS Maybe we need a call for rec.games.roguelike.doomrl?
//
// My recollections of the threads from Crawl's heyday early in the century is
// that it wasn't bloody likely even for Crawl.

That was the basis of that little joke. Crawl has pretty much had
someone call for creation of a Crawl group every few months since th rgr*
heirarchy was created... rgrm has been practically rgr.crawl. Right now,
it's practically rgr.doomrl... so I felt I should throw the bone back
for a change.

Brent Ross

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

bork bork bork Brent Ross bork 6:39:47 AM bork 1/20/2005 bork bork:

> In article <358b26F4jd0feU1@individual.net>,
> Erik Piper <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
> // Brent Ross wrote:
> //
> // > Note that the elevator (the >< stairway that often runs
> // > several levels)
> //
> // So that's no coincidence! Interesting! I've begun to notice it quite
> often // (especially in the branches), and I guess it only makes sense that
> it's no // coincidence since I've seen it several times... any memories of
> the decision to // include elevators? Or does that date back to the
> programming of Linley himself?
>
> It was done way back. From what I've gathered, it was done to try and
> guarantee some level of connected stairways through spotty levels.
>
> Brent Ross

Ooh! Ooh! I see it! I see it!

dungeon.cc:
// creating elevators
if (i == DNGN_STONE_STAIRS_DOWN_I
&& !player_in_branch( BRANCH_SLIME_PITS ))
{
grd[j + 1][k] = DNGN_STONE_STAIRS_UP_I;
}

if (grd[j][k - 1] == DNGN_ROCK_WALL)
grd[j][k - 1] = DNGN_FLOOR;
if (grd[j][k + 1] == DNGN_ROCK_WALL)
grd[j][k + 1] = DNGN_FLOOR;
if (grd[j - 1][k] == DNGN_ROCK_WALL)
grd[j - 1][k] = DNGN_FLOOR;
if (grd[j + 1][k] == DNGN_ROCK_WALL)
grd[j + 1][k] = DNGN_FLOOR;

So the elevators will always have a bit of clearance around them, it seems.
Any rationale behind that? Hmm... I see that the initial state for every
square in that period of dungeon creation seems to be solid rock.

"Spotty levels." Heh. They're even called that in the code. My HECr who
starved to death due to a brown/white trap in the Mines has a few words to
say with Linley about spotty levels...

What's the bit (found not only here but also 2 other times in dungeon.cc)
about not doing various things in the Slime Pits? Well, one instance is
obvious: it would be a bit silly to have Boris or Margery dancing about among
the acid blobs. But why wouldn't you want to have elevators in the Slime
Pits? Just to make them even more evil?

Erik

 

[Guest]

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bork bork bork Erik Piper bork 12:36:27 PM bork 1/20/2005 bork bork:

> [...] But why wouldn't you want to have elevators in the
> Slime Pits? Just to make them even more evil?
>
> Erik

No, Erik, it's because since there are no items to gather in the Pits, if
elevators existed, everyone would take them whenever they could, and then
what would be the point of all the dangers in the Pits?

Erik

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

begin quoting Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de>:
>DOS only, right? Even if I wanted, I couldn't (Linux only).

It runs under DOSEMU...

>And, from those DoomRL spammings during the last days I suppose it's
>just another one of those community-driven, idea-exploding roguelikes.

It is also quite good fun; and Kornel does have the will to say "no" to
ideas he doesn't like from the community.
--
David Damerell <damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Thursday, January.

 

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In article <359jdqF4in79uU1@individual.net>,
Erik Piper <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
// But why wouldn't you want to have elevators in the Slime Pits? Just to
// make them even more evil?

They used to be allowed there. The fact that the levels were all spotty
and weren't particularly high on exploration desirability (acidic monsters
without equipment and the lack of floor items) typically lead to the PC
heading about 20 squares to get to the elevator on the first or second
floor and riding it quickly to the bottom. It essentially made all the
intermediate levels rather pointless.

The Lair and the Orc Mines also have spotty levels. However, the Lair
is only mostly spotty (which means that elevators tend to get broken),
and both encourage exploration and clearing of their levels (floor and
monster items).

Brent Ross

 

[Guest]

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Brent Ross wrote:
> In article <csmirg$1hv$04$1@news.t-online.com>,
> Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote:
> // R. Dan Henry wrote:
> // >
> // > Try DoomRL, it's fun!
> //
> // DOS only, right? Even if I wanted, I couldn't (Linux only).
>
> That's pretty much what's kept me from trying it.

Lousy excuse ;-). But I assume I can add you to the list of people voting
for a Linux version?

> Has anybody tried it under DOSEmu?

Didn't hear about any try. It works fine though under DOSBox (as reported by
Ilya Bely and a few others).

> Brent Ross
>
> PS Maybe we need a call for rec.games.roguelike.doomrl?

Or maybe finally a rec.games.roguelike.crawl ;-). With my works, I think
I'll wait for rec.games.roguelike.genrogue ;-).

regards,
Kornel Kisielewicz

 

[stan]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

R. Dan Henry wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:57:40 +0100, Lars Kecke
> <kecke@physik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
>
>>Rubinstein wrote:
>>> I still wonder whether there is a functional difference between white
>>> and brown stairs.
>>
>>Every dungeon level (excluding the bottom level of branches) has
>>excactly 3 pairs of white stairs (denoted by {}, () and [] in the map
>>file) and an indefinite number of brown (denoted by <>) ones. Each white
>>stair is connected to the same-type white stair on the next level while
>>every brown stair is connected to a random (at time of creation) white
>>stair.
>
> That is certainly the way it is *supposed* to work. However, there is
> a history of reports that it does not always do so going back at least
> the couple of years I've been paying attention to Crawl.
>
I /just/ had this happen to me with a new character. Dlvl 1, and there are 5
white (stone) staircases. Going down one then back up puts you in a
different place.

This is with 4.0.0beta26.

 

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stan wrote:
> R. Dan Henry wrote:
>
>
>>On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:57:40 +0100, Lars Kecke
>><kecke@physik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Rubinstein wrote:
>>>
>>>> I still wonder whether there is a functional difference between
>>>> white and brown stairs.
>>>
>>> Every dungeon level (excluding the bottom level of branches) has
>>> excactly 3 pairs of white stairs (denoted by {}, () and [] in the
>>> map file) and an indefinite number of brown (denoted by <>) ones.
>>> Each white stair is connected to the same-type white stair on the
>>> next level while every brown stair is connected to a random (at
>>> time of creation) white stair.
>>
>> That is certainly the way it is *supposed* to work. However, there
>> is a history of reports that it does not always do so going back at
>> least the couple of years I've been paying attention to Crawl.
>>
>
> I /just/ had this happen to me with a new character. Dlvl 1, and
> there are 5 white (stone) staircases. Going down one then back up
> puts you in a different place.

After the original post it still happened a few more times to me, so it
doesn't seem to be that rare at all.
Btw, according to your mail address, you must be a real spam-lover! *g*

Rubinstein