[crawl] skill switches

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In the early stages of the game, playing a MuNe, is it worth turning off
Necromancy advancement so that only Spellcasting is getting significant
amounts of experience? (MuNe start with Spellcasting 1, Necromancy 4)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html

 

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Martin Read wrote:

> In the early stages of the game, playing a MuNe, is it worth turning off
> Necromancy advancement so that only Spellcasting is getting significant
> amounts of experience? (MuNe start with Spellcasting 1, Necromancy 4)

It is advantageous in that Spellcasting is cheaper at the beginning of the game
than at any other time. (Cheapest until level 5, and then gradually more
exensive for about 10 levels after that, until it reaches the "normal" level.
It is also advantageous in that low skills are cheaper to raise than high
skills, and your spellcasting is currently lower than your Necromancy.

It is disadvantageous in that Spellcasting doesn't "kill things" directly; it
gives you more spell points, more spell slots, and some power and some
reduction to fail rate (1/4 the effect of the actual spell skills involved
IIRC), but that's it. Its effect is powerful but indirect, and you might say
that if there's nothing to channel it through, you can die of overstressing
Spellcasting.

Conjurer types hardly suffer from this disadvantage, because their attack
skills are already high and will continue to go up as they train their
spellcasting (skills that are turned off still have a 1/4 chance of getting
trained).

Mage-fighters get by with it OK.

Fighter-mages run into trouble with it real fast.

My recommendation: Try pushing Spellcasting up to 8 before turning other stuff
on, and if you find you're dying too much with this approach, just try pushing
Spellcasting up to 4 instead.

What I actually do: go for 8 usually, and 12 some of the time. Die a lot.

Erik

 

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"Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
>What I actually do: go for 8 usually, and 12 some of the time. Die a lot.

I do the last bit anyway

Most recent blatant screwings-over by the RNG:

* Open door... to find a room full of orcs, including priest and wizard,
who immediately notice me; scrolls of teleportation are unknown, so I
have no usable bailout.
* Go down stairs. Ogre standing immediately adjacent to stairs who
immediately notices me. I get a mace in the face for 26 damage as I
try to escape.

Overall, the biggest thing that kills my necromancers is things like
jackals, geckos, and cockroaches - tough enough to eat a pain spell or
three (and often to shrug off dagger blows), fast enough to catch a
normal-speed player. Oh, and the fact that Pain is a really *cruddy*
spell; it damages the caster *and* the monsters get a saving throw.

(The number of times I've had a giant gecko resist three Pains in a row
isn't even remotely funny.)
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html

 

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Martin Read wrote:

> "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
> > What I actually do: go for 8 usually, and 12 some of the time. Die a lot.
>
> I do the last bit anyway
>
> Most recent blatant screwings-over by the RNG:
>
> * Open door... to find a room full of orcs, including priest and wizard,
> who immediately notice me; scrolls of teleportation are unknown, so I
> have no usable bailout.

If you're at orc-room depth, you're at the sort of depth where you should
already have gone through the scroll dance.

Here's my scroll dance; feel free to adapt and change things that seem too
dangerous/impractical to you.

1. Try to get up a decent supply of scroll *types* (five is good; a few more is
recommended if your intended melee weapon can't be used for butchering and/or
will be needed for dealing damage).
2. OK, get a wield-testin'. Our aim here is to get something cursed, because we
don't really want to waste any Remove Curse goodness. Still, stick to the
relevant weapon/armor types for your character. Weapons go first, because there
are three scroll types that can uncurse them (2 are a shame to waste, but
they're pretty much gonna be wasted if you read-ID them anyway, since you'll
rarely find something worth applying them to early).
3. Try to hold out as long as you can and get some more cursed stuff on yo
body. Your actual survival is, of course, more important than this. Still, it's
good to get as much as possible out of each ?oRC (this always applies).
4. Get a weak, non-undead, non-demonic monster into LOS. Once you've identified
scrolls of fear, you don't need to do this anymore.
5. Make sure you have something with unknown curse status on ya. (For
?oDetectCurse.)
5. Get ?oRC identified.

You now have a lot more freedom. You've probably identified Teleportation by
this point. You've probably idenitified ID too. If you happened to get more ID
goodness than you really wanted, use this priority (after jewelry, which is
obvious):

* Low-count scrolls.
* Unknown wands.
* Potions.
* Wands with unknown charge counts.
* "Marked," usable weapons/armor.
* Cursed randarts.
* Everything else, I guess.

(Some of the stuff above applies more for excess ID later on than during the
scroll dance, but whatever.)

If you don't ID Detect Curse, ID, or Teleportation during the dance, keep in
mind that these 3 piles will tend to be the biggest.

There are a couple of funny special cases later on (like trying to not wield an
ego weapon in case you get vorpalize weapon, not to wield a randart in case you
get foo weapon, etc.), but I think the above is enough complication for
starters.

Always drink-ID potions, by the way, always. Until you reach typical !oMutation
depth, in which case it's up to you.

--

With Orc rooms, you can sometimes set up situations analogous to this one:

##############
....@o.........
#####o########
#o#
#o#
#p#
#p#
## ##

Here, the evil 1-2 punch priest team is in "you can't see me, I can't see you"
mode (they seem to have taken lessons from Douglas Adams); only the "o"'s can
see you.

Also: don't forget your opening salvo of poison spit. And in general, against
things that you want to have in LOS as little as possible: don't forget your
poison spit. It works while you're out of LOS of that artillery...

And don't forget that while your pitiful skeletons may not be much good for
killing things, they can block up corridors while you head off for some good
old fashioned stair scumming.

> * Go down stairs. Ogre standing immediately adjacent to stairs who
> immediately notices me. I get a mace in the face for 26 damage as I
> try to escape.

Not much to say here.

> Overall, the biggest thing that kills my necromancers is things like
> jackals, geckos, and cockroaches - tough enough to eat a pain spell or
> three (and often to shrug off dagger blows), fast enough to catch a
> normal-speed player.

Poison spit, corridors.

> Oh, and the fact that Pain is a really cruddy
> spell; it damages the caster and the monsters get a saving throw.

As you get more HP, the damage to the caster becomes a joke. However, by that
time the number of undead/demonic opponents grows (except for the Lair
system... my Kenku Death Knight cleared the Snake Pit, for example, using
Pain/Vampiric Drain almost exclusively).

Erik

 

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"Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:
>Martin Read wrote:
>> Overall, the biggest thing that kills my necromancers is things like
>> jackals, geckos, and cockroaches - tough enough to eat a pain spell or
>> three (and often to shrug off dagger blows), fast enough to catch a
>> normal-speed player.
>
>Poison spit, corridors.

I'm playing mummies, not nagas.

Maybe I should change But mummies are just too shiny.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html

 

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On 14 Feb 2005 00:20:50 GMT, "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote:

>Always drink-ID potions, by the way, always. Until you reach typical !oMutation
>depth, in which case it's up to you.

I use spare IDs on small potion stacks because I hate to waste cure
mutation. Of course, other things can have priority, but I'd rather
scroll-ID potions than the number of charges in a wand most of the
time. I also try to test potions when "safe" but down hit points,
poisoned or sick (common enough from chunks), and preferable down a
stat point or two so that (a) healing potions aren't wasted and (b) if
I get bad-status potions they'll just stack the stuff that gets fixed
when I try the potion of healing, which is usually (nearly) the
biggest stack.

I also prefer to clear a level, pop down stairs to an unexplored or
nearly unexplored level before read-testing because of three scrolls:

1. Teleport: You can go back up to the cleared level before it kicks
in, so this is almost as safe as reading on the cleared level.

2. Magic Mapping: The level is mostly unseen, so it isn't wasted.

3. Forgetfulness or whatever Crawl calls the forget map scroll:
Nothing to forget. Ha!

Of course, in any emergency, scrolls get use-tested in whatever the
situation is, like anything else.

R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com

 

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bork bork bork R. Dan Henry bork 8:49:11 AM bork 2/17/2005 bork bork:

> > Always drink-ID potions, by the way, always. Until you reach typical
> > !oMutation depth, in which case it's up to you.
>
> I use spare IDs on small potion stacks because I hate to waste cure
> mutation.

I used to be indiscriminate -- "always always" with no exceptions (I hate
trying to remember to scroll-ID potions when I usually don't). However,
considering the PC-destroying power of being mutated with no potions of cure
mutation, and the rarity of the potions, I've moved to a model where I
quaff-ID potions until unknown potion types become pretty rare, and then
start scroll-IDing. Considering that rare types also include things like
!oMutation, !oGain stat (not something you want to drink if you're iffy on
your mutation set and its future), etc., this works pretty well.

The thing about scroll-ID is that in the beginning of the game, there's only
so much of it, and the thing about delaying ID of consumables to conserve
them is that you can die of that (the most famous example is the case where
the two turns you spend fishing for Teleportation is what kills you, but
there are others).

> Of course, other things can have priority, but I'd rather
> scroll-ID potions than the number of charges in a wand most of the
> time.

With potions, I don't like to wait for extra scroll ID's, because by the time
the need to ID arrives enough times for a "blessed" scroll to pop up, you may
well run into an Orc Wizard, Elf foo, etc., who pegs the potion, which is the
same loss of a good potion as you were trying to avoid. If you need to scrimp
on scroll ID, it's too early to be scroll-IDing potions IMO. Wands,
meanwhile, can't be destroyed, and exact information on a wand can sometimes
save you NOW, or more often preserve a potion of heal wounds that later goes
on to save you when no other option is available... and if it were not to
have saved you, no number of !oCM would.

> I also try to test potions when "safe" but down hit points,
> poisoned or sick (common enough from chunks), and preferable down a
> stat point or two so that (a) healing potions aren't wasted

Basic healing potions are plentiful and weak. On the first few levels,
drinking a potion of poison at less than perfect health can be deadly
(depending on race/class of course). This risk is one of the few things that
ever makes me delay test-quaffing of potions. Restore abilities is rarer, but
I don't tend to be too bothered by minor stat drains... it'll come back,
y'know.

> and (b) if I get bad-status potions they'll just stack the stuff that gets
> fixed when I try the potion of healing, which is usually (nearly) the
> biggest stack.

Poison: move to a very quiet place, wait it out, quaff a healing potion when
at 1 HP. Poison with no !oHealing: rush around frantically searching for
potions, die to a rat. Sure, waiting for Poison to test the stack that should
be Healing might save a potion of healing. It might also mean an extra turn
of not knowing which potion to quaff in an emergency...

Degeneration: wait it out, unless it's something like -3 or -4 to a prime
stat.

Paralysis: wait it out.

Confusion/Slowing: wait it out.

Strong poison: too rare in early phases to mention; by the time it usually
turns up, I just quaff !oH if I'm not resistant.

Miasma: I'm scroll-IDing by this point, but if I screw up, then !oH.

Decay: I'm scroll-IDing by this point, and if I'm not, I swear up a storm.

Mutation: I may or may not be scroll-IDing by this point, and any number of
things may happen surrounding my use-IDing, including swearing up a storm
(unless I'm on the first couple of dungeon levels, in which case I just shrug
and Q Y... the slowdown of play with a crippling mutation is greater than the
time that would be saved by not starting over). If I find a somewhat late
un-ID'd potion, Im not ready to scroll-ID consumables, and I have an "oRM, I
wear it.

> I also prefer to clear a level, pop down stairs to an unexplored or
> nearly unexplored level before read-testing because of three scrolls:
>
> 1. Teleport: You can go back up to the cleared level before it kicks
> in, so this is almost as safe as reading on the cleared level.

I'd even say it's precisely as safe as reading it on a cleared level. Still,
I rarely have trouble with reading my ?oTel during the Big Scroll Dance that
follows after I find a cursed item to ID ?oRC, even if that means reading on
a partially uncleared level.

> 2. Magic Mapping: The level is mostly unseen, so it isn't wasted.

Any scroll of magic mapping spent on an easy-to-map level is wasted, which
means the first one will be wasted pretty much no matter what. That's life.

> 3. Forgetfulness or whatever Crawl calls the forget map scroll:
> Nothing to forget. Ha!

Reading it on a cleared level just means pressing Ctrl-O a few extra times...
the only danger is the low food-to-turns-spent ratio while you're doing this.

[...]

> R. Dan Henry

I sound awfully contrarian above... sorry for that.

The fact that there are different approaches and opinions on the ID game in
Crawl is nice, because it means that ID presents Interesting Choices.

- - - - -

To wrap up a few loose ends:

Never zap-test a wand on something that you wouldn't like to see hasted.

And a couple of interesting cases for non-consumables:

Never wear an un-ID'd amulet until you've ID'd "ofInaccuracy. Always try to
eat meat when not hungry before spending a scroll on an un-ID'd amulet (in
case it's an "otG). If you're not planning on using Evaporate, you can also
ID some other amulet types using bad potions, though I must say I never do
this. In any case, I find the brainstrain of only knowing something's type
"manually" to be taxing and only maintain this state of affairs when ID is
tight.

Always check your invocations list the moment you put on a cursed ring, so
you can find out if it's a =oTeleportation. If it's not, it can be worthwhile
to NOT assume it's a ring of hunger, that is, to immediately ID it; no point
in immediately reading a ?oRC if it turns out to be a cursed ring of slaying
+7,+7.

 

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"Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> writes:

>Never zap-test a wand on something that you wouldn't like to see hasted.

I'd say: Never zap-test a wand on something that you wouldn't like to
see changed into a dragon.

-Jukka
--
Jukka Kuusisto

 

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bork bork bork Jukka Kuusisto bork 1:55:14 PM bork 2/17/2005 bork bork:

> "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> writes:
>
> > Never zap-test a wand on something that you wouldn't like to see hasted.
>
> I'd say: Never zap-test a wand on something that you wouldn't like to
> see changed into a dragon.
>
> -Jukka

Oh dear, another day of me spamming r.g.r.m.

I've never found polymorphing turning stuff into vastly stronger stuff to be
a big problem, but knew nothing about the code to back up statement on the
matter. Here's (just) the core of what's going on when you zap a /oPoly at a
monster:

do
{
targetc = random2( NUM_MONSTERS ); // [ewp:] pick a random target
// monster out of all types

// valid targets are always base classes
targetc = mons_charclass( targetc );
// [ewp:] AFAICT, this is why elves and humans are such frequent
// polymorph results -- any result that leads to a human unique
// becomes a generic human instead, and any result that leads to a
// flavored elf becomes a generic elf instead

target_power = mons_power( targetc );
// [ewp:] how powerful is the thing we picked?

if (one_chance_in(100))
relax++;
// [ewp] on a blue moon, we'll widen the tolerance for the
// check up ahead. (It starts at "2".)


if (relax > 50)
return (simple_monster_message( monster, " shudders." ));
// [ewp] if we've been checking 'til the cows come home and we
// still can't find a valid target, then we give up and print
// "the foo shudders."

}
while (!valid_morph( monster, targetc )
// [ewp] valid_morph checks for a wide range of things involving
// sensibleness (can't morph things into themselves, into a
// different base type (e.g. into a demon, a jelly, etc. --
// called monster "holiness," presumably for historical reasons)
// and fairness (e.g. can't morph into a fish on dry land or into
// a 0-XP monster).

|| target_power < source_power - relax
// [ewp] is the monster too weak for the tolerance?
|| target_power > source_power + (relax * 3) / 2);
// [ewp] is the monster too strong for the tolerance?

So. Although you can perhaps get a dragon from polymorphing a hobgoblin,
you'll need a lot of bad luck to do so. You are, however, more likely to get
something stronger than to get something weaker.

Erik