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[crawl] YAVP

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Anonymous
February 27, 2005 6:42:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

My first!

And actually quite unexpected - I usually play magic users, but after
sending a lot of GEAE:s and MfTm:s to an early grave I started up a
MDHe. And finding an executioner's axe of flaming on level 8 or so
helped out immensely. That axe, plus decent armour from the beginning,
and Elyvilion's healing made sure that melee combat was very easy,
even if I found myself surrounded by a mob of baddies.

I cleared the Mines, the Lair, the Snake Pit, the Vaults, the Halls,
the Hive, the Crypt, the Hall of Blades. I even took a small peek into
Hell, but decided against it.

I only found one rod during the whole game, and that was a rod of
Demonology, which was worthless for a Healer. (Elyvilion does get
quite upset by demon summoning...) I only found one scroll of
acquirement during the whole game, and that scroll was promptly fried
by a bunch of deep elves that popped out from nowhere. And only that
scroll among the bunch of usual stuff like identify, remove/detect
curse and so on. The RNG does have a strange sense of humour.

The lack of ranged combat options made me have to run after fleeing
monsters quite a lot, and also ducking away from yaktaurs and the
like, but since the character was buff enough it was no real problem.

Zot was a lot less scary than I thought, but I only ran into 1 orb of
fire, 1 Killer Klown, and 3 or so electric golems. I suppose that's
unusually few.

All in all, a very nice game. Next I'll probably have a go with a
Transmuter or the SEEE I have parked.

Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26 character file.

Are you sure you want to leave the Dungeon?
You have escaped!

ivna the Axe Maniac (Mountain Dwarf)
(Level 26 Healer)
Experience : 26/1020828
Strength 28 Dexterity 16 Intelligence 11
Hit Points : 231 Magic Points : 38
AC : 44 Evasion : 15 Shield : 0
GP : 2215
// most of the gains went to strength. The AC meant that
// most monsters did little or no damage.

You are on level 1
You worship Elyvilon.
Elyvilon is exalted by your worship.
You are completely stuffed.

Inventory:
Hand weapons
a - a +8,+8 executioner's axe of flaming (weapon)
// found early at +1,+3. Made life a lot easier. Used it most
// for almost everything.

b - the +5,+4 spiked flail of the Weasel
It has been specially enchanted to freeze those struck by it,
causing extra
injury to most foes and up to double damage against particularly
susceptible opponents.
It insulates you from electricity.
It lets you turn invisible.
It lets you go berserk.
It lets you sense your surroundings.
// after Axes topped out at level 27 I began putting some experience
// into Maces & Flails. This was nice for the insulation, and served
// as a handy way to put experience into Evocations, thanks to
// the sense surroundings ability.

c - a +4,+5 spiked flail of holy wrath
d - a +2,+6 morningstar of distortion
// Two souvenirs. I used the Holy Wrath flail against undead quite
// a lot.

Armour
e - a +2 pair of boots (worn)
i - a +5 storm dragon armour (worn)
// replaced an ice dragon armour, which in turn replaced a plate mail
// of foo resistance

l - a +2 pair of gloves (worn)
J - the +5 cloak "Vedugop" (worn)
It affects your dexterity (+4).

Z - the +0 mask of dragon (worn)
A blue mask.
It affects your accuracy (+2).
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+2).
It protects you from magic.
It enhances your eyesight.
// from the Vaults, I think. I was beginning to think that there
// were no sources of see invisible in this game when it turned up.

Magical devices
m - a wand of digging (3)
s - a wand of fire (14)
t - a wand of cold (7)
v - a wand of digging (3)
y - a wand of digging (8)
E - a wand of healing (3)
L - a wand of fireball (12)
Q - a wand of teleportation (16)
// the digging was to speed up the ascent, but from my main stash
// in the ET it was not a long way anyway.

Comestibles
h - 10 honeycombs
// should have brought the jellies I had instead.

Scrolls
w - 4 scrolls of blinking
B - 7 scrolls of teleportation
N - 2 scrolls of remove curse
O - 2 scrolls of magic mapping
Jewellery
k - an uncursed ring of poison resistance
n - an uncursed ring of ice (left hand)
// swapped with a +3/+4 ring of slaying as needed.

p - a ring of levitation
C - an uncursed amulet of resist slowing
D - an amulet of controlled flight
F - the ring of Tuly (right hand)
This ring increases the ability of its wearer to use magical
spells.
It affects your evasion (+6).
// replaced a +4 ring of evasion

G - an uncursed amulet of the gourmand
H - a ring of life protection
I - an amulet of rage
K - an amulet of resist corrosion
P - an amulet of conservation (around neck)
R - an amulet of the gourmand
S - an amulet of rage
T - an amulet of controlled flight
W - an amulet of warding
// no resist mutation in the whole game.

Potions
j - 2 potions of berserk rage
u - 4 potions of speed
z - 10 potions of heal wounds
A - 5 potions of might
M - 12 potions of cure mutation
// I drank 2 or 3 in total.

Orbs of Power
x - the Orb of Zot
Miscellaneous
f - a lantern of shadows
g - the horn of Geryon
o - a decaying rune of Zot
q - a silver rune of Zot
r - a serpentine rune of Zot
U - a deck of tricks


You have 23 experience left.

Skills:
+ Level 19 Fighting
* Level 27 Axes
+ Level 22 Maces & Flails
- Level 2 Staves
- Level 2 Darts
- Level 2 Throwing
+ Level 18 Armour
- Level 4 Dodging
+ Level 1 Stabbing
- Level 2 Shields
+ Level 12 Traps & Doors
- Level 1 Spellcasting
+ Level 15 Invocations
+ Level 16 Evocations


You have 27 spell levels left.
You don't know any spells.

Mutations & Other Weirdness
You are agile (Dex +1).
Your flesh is very heat resistant.
You have sharp fingernails.
You are partially covered in knobbly red scales (AC + 2).
// I got some nice mutations early on, quaffed a few potions of
// mutation and got the slowly detoriating and space warps around
// you mutations. I got rid of those, got this set and didn't dare to
// mess with shapeshifter corpses and risk the fire resistance.

Goodbye, ivna.

792084 ivna - MDHe26, escaped with the Orb!

Best Crawlers -
1. 792084 ivna - MDHe26, escaped with the Orb!
2. 353309 ivan - MfTm21, killed by acid on L2 of the Slime
Pits.
3. 328763 ivan - HDFi21, took a swim in molten lava on L5 of
the Elf Ha

#2 got overconfident, and I have posted an YASD of #3 earlier.

More about : crawl yavp

Anonymous
February 28, 2005 9:12:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Johan Strandell wrote:
> My first!

Congratulations!

> And actually quite unexpected - I usually play magic users, but after
> sending a lot of GEAE:s

We obviously share the same obsessions: GEAEs are my current favourites
(though lightyears from being successful) and this

> [snip]
> Next I'll probably have a go with a Transmuter or the SEEE I have
> parked.

(SEEEs) are my 2nd favourites.
I'm still waiting for my first winner. My parked L24 GEWz probably will
make it, but right now I don't dare to touch him.

Good luck for your next ones and may the RNG's odd humor kill you not
too often! ;-)

Rubinstein
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 11:18:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<cvu98h$udi$00$1@news.t-online.com>...

> Congratulations!

Thanks!

> I'm still waiting for my first winner. My parked L24 GEWz probably will
> make it, but right now I don't dare to touch him.

This game probably took 3 weeks to finish, partly because I didn't
want to risk the character, so I know the feeling. :) 

Any L24 character probably should be able to make it (not that I'm a
great authority or anything), but I think the fighter classes are
easier than spellcasters. More HP:s, better AC, and no worries that
spell points might run out at an inopportune moment. And a reliable
way to deal damage too, something that at least AEs lack, especially
if they're roleplaying. That said, I think spellcasters are a lot more
fun to play.

> Good luck for your next ones and may the RNG's odd humor kill you not
> too often! ;-)

Thanks again! :) 

/Johan
Related resources
Anonymous
February 28, 2005 8:41:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

bork bork bork Johan Strandell bork 5:18:16 PM bork 2/28/2005 bork bork:

> Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:<cvu98h$udi$00$1@news.t-online.com>...
>
> > Congratulations!
>
> Thanks!
>
> > I'm still waiting for my first winner. My parked L24 GEWz probably will
> > make it, but right now I don't dare to touch him.
>
> This game probably took 3 weeks to finish, partly because I didn't
> want to risk the character, so I know the feeling. :) 
>
> Any L24 character probably should be able to make it (not that I'm a
> great authority or anything)

I've lost at least four characters who were level 24 or above. One ran out of
spell points on his way out of Zot. Another one sort of lost the will to live
due to an awful set of mutations and dived into the Slime Pits in the hopes
of either getting a potion of Cure Mutation or dying -- he's in a better
place now. Another one mistook the Detect Creatures footprint for the boss
monster of Cocytus (the ice-themed hell) for that of an ordinary giant and
charged towards him at 1/3 of full health -- died to a lightning bolt before
I even got to see the boss. Another wield-tested a crystal ball of fixation
at the bottom of Tartarus, the death-themed hell. A Reaper immediately
appeared and, since his main defense was evasion-based, he was dead before he
knew what hit him.

So yeah, L24 characters can die if you do something stupid or desperate, and
sometimes even if you don't.

> , but I think the fighter classes are
> easier than spellcasters. More HP:s, better AC, and no worries that
> spell points might run out at an inopportune moment.

I've never played a true fighter up to the endgame, but when I compare mages
to fighter-mages, I'd say they're about on par. Vehumet-worshipping
specialist conjurers, atleast, tend to be able to do a whole lot with very
few magic points, get more if they need to (by channeling energy), and have
oodles of spell slots to spend on getaway tricks to use when all else fails
-- and some of those tricks are so effective, they're just plain evil (e.g.
Tomb of Dolorkohe).

That said, I managed to die with the orb in hand with a conjurer, by running
out of spell points and being pounded too fast to create an effective defense
before dying. It also didn't help that I had blurry vision and thus didn't
even bother to carry scrolls of blinking -- whose whole point, in my mind, is
their "get out of death free" nature. And I think a fighter can die from such
a situation -- getting pounded and reserves are all gone -- just as easily as
a mage. One reserve -- HP -- is larger, but the others are smaller.

There are dodging-based fighters, incidentally, not just in theory but also
in YAVPs -- Tina Hall's Halfling Thief, for instance. So "better AC/Evasion"
would be more accurate than "better AC." I've played three types of defense
-- AC, Evasion, and if-it-moves-annihilate-it -- and I'd say they're all
quite balanced against each other, which is great.


> And a reliable way to deal damage too, something that at least AEs lack,
> especially if they're roleplaying.

*Conjurer* conjurers don't have to worry about this. Utter pragmatists, the
whole lot of them. :-)

> That said, I think spellcasters are a lot more fun to play.

At least the first 500. After the second 500, it's very easy to get in the
mood to try something else and die in new and exciting ways. :-)

Erik
Anonymous
March 1, 2005 11:28:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote in message news:<38h3ekF5mvdrvU1@individual.net>...

> > Any L24 character probably should be able to make it (not that I'm a
> > great authority or anything)

<snip sad tales of dead L24 characters>

> So yeah, L24 characters can die if you do something stupid or desperate, and
> sometimes even if you don't.

Perhaps I should have said "a" L24 character, rather than "any". But
that's one of the things I like about Crawl - when you get too
confident you usually die pretty soon, like your example with the
crystal ball shows. Keeps you on your toes at least.

> That said, I managed to die with the orb in hand with a conjurer, by running
> out of spell points and being pounded too fast to create an effective defense
> before dying. It also didn't help that I had blurry vision and thus didn't
> even bother to carry scrolls of blinking -- whose whole point, in my mind, is
> their "get out of death free" nature. And I think a fighter can die from such
> a situation -- getting pounded and reserves are all gone -- just as easily as
> a mage. One reserve -- HP -- is larger, but the others are smaller.

I think that fighters have a lot more room for mistakes - many of my
spellcasters go down in one or two hits when suddenly faced with
something nasty, while a fighter can survive stumbling into a group of
yaktaurs. And only having HP to keep track of makes it easier, unlike
fighter-mages and mages that constantly have to track HP, MP, active
spells and so on. (And since this character went with Elyvilion I
didn't even have to think about praying in combat. :) 

> > That said, I think spellcasters are a lot more fun to play.
>
> At least the first 500. After the second 500, it's very easy to get in the
> mood to try something else and die in new and exciting ways. :-)

That's what I like about AEs - they have a lot of different tactics to
try out. They're a lot less powerful than for instance FEs, but they
OTOH get kind of boring: usually an endless series of Fire Bolt-Sticky
Flame-Fire Bolt-Fire Bolt-Fire Storm-Sticky Flame-Fire resistant
monster-Run away! :) 

/Johan
Anonymous
March 1, 2005 8:24:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

bork bork bork Johan Strandell bork 5:28:56 PM bork 3/1/2005 bork bork:

> "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote in message
> news:<38h3ekF5mvdrvU1@individual.net>...
>
> > > Any L24 character probably should be able to make it (not that I'm a
> > > great authority or anything)
>
> <snip sad tales of dead L24 characters>
>
> > So yeah, L24 characters can die if you do something stupid or desperate,
> > and sometimes even if you don't.
>
> Perhaps I should have said "a" L24 character, rather than "any". But
> that's one of the things I like about Crawl - when you get too
> confident you usually die pretty soon, like your example with the
> crystal ball shows. Keeps you on your toes at least.

Indeed. While Crawl's late game won't punish you for merely existing, like
its early game does, "you can still die," and you are still actually playing
a game rather than going through the motions.

> > That said, I managed to die with the orb in hand with a conjurer, by
> > running out of spell points and being pounded too fast to create an
> > effective defense before dying. It also didn't help that I had blurry
> > vision and thus didn't even bother to carry scrolls of blinking -- whose
> > whole point, in my mind, is their "get out of death free" nature. And I
> > think a fighter can die from such a situation -- getting pounded and
> > reserves are all gone -- just as easily as a mage. One reserve -- HP --
> > is larger, but the others are smaller.
>
> I think that fighters have a lot more room for mistakes - many of my
> spellcasters go down in one or two hits when suddenly faced with
> something nasty, while a fighter can survive stumbling into a group of
> yaktaurs. And only having HP to keep track of makes it easier, unlike
> fighter-mages and mages that constantly have to track HP, MP, active
> spells and so on. (And since this character went with Elyvilion I
> didn't even have to think about praying in combat. :) 

In a sense, pure mages don't have hit points to keep track of -- they can
pretty much assume that if they face any serious attack, they're toast, and
players of pure mages can thus reduce the range of their focus to making sure
this never happens. That's what I meant (in a part you snipped -- no matter)
by the "if it moves, annihilate it" defense. Simpler than it sounds, really.
Once you keep in mind the principle that every single one of your tactics and
strategies in your games as a pure spellcaster should be a slave to the goal
of never, ever letting anything get a clean swipe at you, you tend to have
just as much room for mistakes as a fighter -- because you have multiple
layers of defense. Ending a sortie with the enemy is intricately tied with
the keypress "Shift-F5", you could write treatises on stairscumming, you home
in on any opportunity to learn Blink/Teleport/Swiftness/Haste/ToD/Controlled
Blink/etc, you treat the difference between one space distance and two spaces
distance with as much respect as the difference between two and ten, you know
all about exploiting monster traffic jams, pillars, and monster attack
speeds, you religiously carry a top-level attack wand for emergency use, etc.
And you have these things so ingrained that if you forget one layer, you're
saved by having remembered the others, often just by rote. But I would agree
that you have much less room to lean on the keys with a spellcaster. See the
last paragraph below. :-)

Yesterday after a long burnout-induced timeout on DECjs, I took one for a
spin for fun (inspired by your comments, really) and was able to enjoy it
again. Fire/Earth. A bit unusual in that the Temple was quite deep and the
Lair was quite shallow, so they practically overlapped -- I barely had time
to set up shop in the Temple before moving day arrived. But anyway, I thought
of this game just now because I had a fun tight situation around D10 or so --
wave after wave of toughie by the staircase I kept entering (without thinking
too much, really), with me quite hungry due to intensively scumming to abuse
the tail end of the early bonus to learning spellcasting. I just *hate*
eating rations when I could eat chunks, so I'm really intent on finally
getting some chunks out of all this, but every step towards the chunks keeps
bringing on new toughies (and few with edible corpses), and I'm getting
hungrier and hungrier. First really interesting part is where I have to shake
a slime creature when I'm low on MP and not in the mood to regenerate and
then catch it at a large distance for firebolting -- the level above is an
"octagon with pillars", so I end up dragging it up, dancing 3/4 of the
nearest pillar, and then using the law of averages to achieve a blink away
from back towards the staircase. Then back for those damn yak corpses... so
much opposition! I end up using one of my old favorites, the "mouse in the
teeth": pick up the whole corpse, averages-blink to create a 2-square
distance from the latest thing preventing me from dissecting in peace, drag
it back up the stairs -- thankfully the slime has wandered off -- dissect the
darn thing and eat it, and finally I'm back in the clear.

I made PLENTY of mistakes in the course of all of that, and still recovered
from them all quite handily without exceptional brilliance... just knowing
the ropes. But there are a lot more ropes to know for pure mages, I guess.

> ...active spells...

BTW -- my pure mages don't have many active spells, since a turn spent
casting any defensive spell other than perhaps the missilekillers or the
hasters is one that would have been better spent eliminating the threat in
the first place; in any case, I find the right-side display good enough.
Fighter-mages have a harder time of it; here my sincere thanks go to
Rubinstein, who once mentioned in passing during the discussion of the latest
Darshan patch improvements that (roughly!) "the @ key is already assigned to
the status report, though I'm not sure what good a report like 'You are
alive' is"). All the missing tidbits from the right-side info are there in
spades, from the degree of bonding provided by Sure Blade to an easy way to
check if you can berserk again without mucking through the message history.

Back on topic....

So you have the fighter who's fine as long as nothing tricky is required, and
the mage who's fine as long as nothing simple is required (what could be
simpler than repeatedly bumping into things?); it's the fighter-mage who is
the most problematic early on, since he's not good enough at being tricky to
have an easy ride, nor is he good enough at being simple. Later on, he
becomes so good at both that he can be quite powerful.

(Until he gazes into a Crystal Ball of fixation, that is... there the pure
fighter, especially the AC-based grunt who's well-defended even when
paralyzed, has the upper hand... but then if you're trying to play a clever
character, it's only fitting that you have an especially small leeway for
doing stupid things.)

[...]

Erik

PS I realize I got a bit carried away with this response... hope you enjoyed
it anyway. :-)
Anonymous
March 1, 2005 10:26:40 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Erik Piper wrote:
> bork bork bork Johan Strandell bork 5:28:56 PM bork 3/1/2005 bork bork:
>
>> "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote in message
>> news:<38h3ekF5mvdrvU1@individual.net>...
>>
>> > > Any L24 character probably should be able to make it (not that
>> > > I'm a great authority or anything)
>>
>> <snip sad tales of dead L24 characters>
>
> In a sense, pure mages don't have hit points to keep track of -- they
> can pretty much assume that if they face any serious attack, they're
> toast, and players of pure mages can thus reduce the range of their
> focus to making sure this never happens. That's what I meant (in a
> part you snipped -- no matter) by the "if it moves, annihilate it"
> defense. Simpler than it sounds, really.

And a lot more subtil with AE's. I'm currently fighting Spiny Frogs in
the Lair with a L12 GEAE (no res_poison and with the original spell set
only). *That* is interesting! ;-) With AEs you sometimes just have no
other choice than making use of Static Discharge. There, w/o any means
of insulation, you not only have the disadvantage of hurting yourself,
you also need to get in touch with the nasties. Let me say it this way:
if your fingernails are too long, I highly recommend playing AEs! *g*

>> ...active spells...
>
> ...here my sincere thanks go to Rubinstein, who once mentioned in
> passing during the discussion of the latest Darshan patch improvements
> that (roughly!) "the @ key is already assigned to the status report,
> though I'm not sure what good a report like 'You are alive' is"). All
> the missing tidbits from the right-side info are there in spades, from
> the degree of bonding provided by Sure Blade to an easy way to check
> if you can berserk again without mucking through the message history.

And so it falls back to me! I never touched the @ key anymore since I
thought it's completely useless... /-)

> PS I realize I got a bit carried away with this response... hope you
> enjoyed it anyway. :-)

As always! :-)

Rubinstein
Anonymous
March 2, 2005 2:14:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 7:26:40 PM bork 3/1/2005 bork bork:

> Erik Piper wrote:
> > bork bork bork Johan Strandell bork 5:28:56 PM bork 3/1/2005 bork bork:
> >
> >> "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote in message
> >> news:<38h3ekF5mvdrvU1@individual.net>...
> >>
> >> > > Any L24 character probably should be able to make it (not that
> >> > > I'm a great authority or anything)
> >>
> >> <snip sad tales of dead L24 characters>
> >
> > In a sense, pure mages don't have hit points to keep track of -- they
> > can pretty much assume that if they face any serious attack, they're
> > toast, and players of pure mages can thus reduce the range of their
> > focus to making sure this never happens. That's what I meant (in a
> > part you snipped -- no matter) by the "if it moves, annihilate it"
> > defense. Simpler than it sounds, really.
>
> And a lot more subtil with AE's. I'm currently fighting Spiny Frogs in
> the Lair with a L12 GEAE (no res_poison and with the original spell set
> only). That is interesting! ;-) With AEs you sometimes just have no
> other choice than making use of Static Discharge. There, w/o any means
> of insulation, you not only have the disadvantage of hurting yourself,
> you also need to get in touch with the nasties. Let me say it this way:
> if your fingernails are too long, I highly recommend playing AEs! *g*

Even if I win first, you will still have the "braver player" prize. I *am*
one for the safe options :0)

(Sure, I like playing Halflings, but these I always play in the most
cowardly, pragmatic way possible.)

Erik
Anonymous
March 2, 2005 5:37:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Erik Piper wrote:
> bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 7:26:40 PM bork 3/1/2005 bork bork:
>
>> Erik Piper wrote:
>> > bork bork bork Johan Strandell bork 5:28:56 PM bork 3/1/2005 bork
>> > bork:
>> >
>> >> "Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote in message
>> >> news:<38h3ekF5mvdrvU1@individual.net>...
>> >>
>> >> > > Any L24 character probably should be able to make it (not that
>> >> > > I'm a great authority or anything)
>> >>
>> >> <snip sad tales of dead L24 characters>
>> >
>> > In a sense, pure mages don't have hit points to keep track of --
>> > they can pretty much assume that if they face any serious attack,
>> > they're toast...
>> > [...]
>>
>> ...fighting Spiny Frogs in the Lair with a L12 GEAE (no res_poison
>> and with the original spell set only). That is interesting! ;-)
>> [...]
>
> Even if I win first, you will still have the "braver player" prize. I
> *am* one for the safe options :0)

To be honest, I'm not quite sure anymore about the AEs general weakness.
Maybe it's all about how to play them (after more than 100 GEAEs I
should have some clue now). The certain one I mentioned above surely
wasn't weak anymore. Once you get a staff of air and a book of sky
(assuming high skill in Air) you're ready for the fun, which is more
than just compensation for all the pain before. Unfortunately I badly
YASDed this one by ignoring the 'don't-play-while-tired' rule: after a
very long and difficult phase I died in a situation which was much
easier than everything before, oh well.

If I will win some day, it will be the prove that even dumbnuts can win
this game! *g*

While this was one of my typical 'pure' AEs (I even cancelled my fire
spells, either no ice, no summoning), my current one seems to go the
mage-fighter route due to some rare early findings, which also seems
possible with that certain combo. What I try to say is: once you get
used to play AEs you'll soon find how interesting and variedly they can
be. Maybe it's just me, but I still can't get enough of them! ;-)

Btw, I never play my GEAEs with Vehumet anymore, but Sif Muna instead.
Always. Every move counts, no time for stupid praying! ;-)

Rubinstein
Anonymous
March 2, 2005 6:27:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote in message news:<38jmppF5o7nojU1@individual.net>...
> bork bork bork Johan Strandell bork 5:28:56 PM bork 3/1/2005 bork bork:

> > ...active spells...
>
> BTW -- my pure mages don't have many active spells, since a turn spent
> casting any defensive spell other than perhaps the missilekillers or the
> hasters is one that would have been better spent eliminating the threat in
> the first place; in any case, I find the right-side display good enough.
> Fighter-mages have a harder time of it; here my sincere thanks go to
> Rubinstein, who once mentioned in passing during the discussion of the latest
> Darshan patch improvements that (roughly!) "the @ key is already assigned to
> the status report, though I'm not sure what good a report like 'You are
> alive' is"). All the missing tidbits from the right-side info are there in
> spades, from the degree of bonding provided by Sure Blade to an easy way to
> check if you can berserk again without mucking through the message history.

I was more thinking about fighter-mages than pure mages. I've been
playing a lot of Transmuters, and with them you have to juggle spell
points, spell durations (Blade hands...), hit points, and usually
prayer too, so it's a bit more involved than just whacking things from
a distance. I suppose the same goes for crusaders, but I've never got
anywhere with them.

But for pure spellcasters, I definitely agree. With one exception:
checking if a monster needs a new dose of Sticky flame when you're
playing a FE. :) 

> So you have the fighter who's fine as long as nothing tricky is required, and
> the mage who's fine as long as nothing simple is required (what could be
> simpler than repeatedly bumping into things?); it's the fighter-mage who is
> the most problematic early on, since he's not good enough at being tricky to
> have an easy ride, nor is he good enough at being simple. Later on, he
> becomes so good at both that he can be quite powerful.

The thing about fighters is that they usually have fewer options, and
really need a nice weapon and some good armour, which is far from
guaranteed. Spellcasters are guaranteed more spells than they can use
if they go with Sif Muna, so they have the flexibility. And from that
comes the bigger opportunities for screwups. It cuts both ways: a mage
can (usually) deal with most things in some way or other, while a
fighter only can fight or run away. When faced with a monster than
they can handle they can only run away...

> PS I realize I got a bit carried away with this response... hope you enjoyed
> it anyway. :-)

Always nice to read a small treatise on Crawl. And someone has to keep
up the traffic so that this newsgroup doesn't turn into r.g.r.doomrl
;) 

/Johan
Anonymous
March 2, 2005 6:52:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<d04fi6$2kc$00$1@news.t-online.com>...

> To be honest, I'm not quite sure anymore about the AEs general weakness.
> Maybe it's all about how to play them (after more than 100 GEAEs I
> should have some clue now). The certain one I mentioned above surely
> wasn't weak anymore. Once you get a staff of air and a book of sky
> (assuming high skill in Air) you're ready for the fun, which is more
> than just compensation for all the pain before. Unfortunately I badly
> YASDed this one by ignoring the 'don't-play-while-tired' rule: after a
> very long and difficult phase I died in a situation which was much
> easier than everything before, oh well.

I think that the AEs are the most flexible of the elementalists, but
IME they lack ranged punch. I usually use Shock + Mephilitic cloud
until I can find a spell book with usuable conjurations. It works
fairly well, but zapping yaks, ogres and other biggies 10-15 times
until they go down does get a bit tedious.

Even the Book of the Sky doesn't help that much - Lightning bolt isn't
that good compared to the other elemental spells. But Conjure ball
lightning is fun. :) 

> While this was one of my typical 'pure' AEs (I even cancelled my fire
> spells, either no ice, no summoning), my current one seems to go the
> mage-fighter route due to some rare early findings, which also seems
> possible with that certain combo. What I try to say is: once you get
> used to play AEs you'll soon find how interesting and variedly they can
> be. Maybe it's just me, but I still can't get enough of them! ;-)

I've tried a few KeAEs, but they never got anywhere. I think that
could be a nice fighter-mage combination.

> Btw, I never play my GEAEs with Vehumet anymore, but Sif Muna instead.
> Always. Every move counts, no time for stupid praying! ;-)

Personally I think that help with summoning and conjurations is a lot
nicer than getting all the books, but somehow you always find the
books you want lying around on the floor when worshipping SM, but
never with Vehumet...

/Johan
Anonymous
March 2, 2005 7:41:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 2:37:10 PM bork 3/2/2005 bork bork:

[...]
>
> Btw, I never play my GEAEs with Vehumet anymore, but Sif Muna instead.
> Always. Every move counts, no time for stupid praying! ;-)

But if you're ignoring most schools, how beneficial is she really? Hmm, if
you want a nice "no-pray" god and you're sometimes part-fighter, you could
always do Elyvilon. The only disadvantage is that he's on the verge of
becoming trendy. :-)

Erik
Anonymous
March 2, 2005 10:12:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Erik Piper wrote:
> bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 2:37:10 PM bork 3/2/2005 bork bork:
>
> [...]
>>
>> Btw, I never play my GEAEs with Vehumet anymore, but Sif Muna
>> instead. Always. Every move counts, no time for stupid praying! ;-)
>
> But if you're ignoring most schools, how beneficial is she really?

I don't ignore other schools in principle, depends on what books I get
access to and in what order (and probably other items, too). With my
last GEAE e.g. I temporarely needed 2 fire spells just to survive the
time until I'ld get the book of the Sky. Sif Muna's guaranteed Selektive
Amnesia is particularly useful in such a case. Meanwhile my idea of
playing a GEAE has changed from 'roleplaying under all circumstances' to
'as flexible as possible'. Sif Muna supports flexibility _and_ is never
in the way. He, I'am already sounding like a zealot! ;-)

> Hmm, if you want a nice "no-pray" god and you're sometimes
> part-fighter, you could always do Elyvilon. The only disadvantage is
> that he's on the verge of becoming trendy. :-)

Actually I thought about this, but having to wake up sleeping or unaware
monsters before every fight is too much in contrast to the "every move
counts" concept (and pretty bothersome, too).

Rubinstein
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 6:21:43 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Johan Strandell wrote:
> Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote in message
> news:<d04fi6$2kc$00$1@news.t-online.com>...
>
>> ...not quite sure anymore about the AEs general weakness.
>> [...]
>
> I think that the AEs are the most flexible of the elementalists, but
> IME they lack ranged punch. I usually use Shock + Mephilitic cloud
> until I can find a spell book with usuable conjurations.

Yes, AFAICS there are no better options in the early game (unless you
find a *very* good early weapon).

> It works fairly well, but zapping yaks, ogres and other biggies 10-15
> times until they go down does get a bit tedious.

Agreed, Yaks are a pain with Shock + MC, but

> Even the Book of the Sky doesn't help that much - Lightning bolt isn't
> that good compared to the other elemental spells.

Here I disagree. I recall they were history after an average of 2 blows
of Lighting Bolt. Maybe it needs a very high air skill and/or a staff
of air which I was using at that time. Lighting Bolt was at least more
powerful than I expected from it's description.

> But Conjure ball lightning is fun. :) 

Agreed, what an inferno! :-) But I wouldn't dare using it w/o a staff of
air or other source of insulation...

>> While this was one of my typical 'pure' AEs (I even cancelled my fire
>> spells, either no ice, no summoning), my current one seems to go the
>> mage-fighter route due to some rare early findings, which also seems
>> possible with that certain combo. What I try to say is: once you get
>> used to play AEs you'll soon find how interesting and variedly they can
>> be. Maybe it's just me, but I still can't get enough of them! ;-)

Meanwhile that char is dead, too. Though he has an incredible history:
first char I managed to escape from the Abyss (last steps were
accompanied by an unseen horror which was too tough to fight at this
time, but fortunately I had see invisible). He also survived another,
very tough encounter with 1HP. He was such a hero...

Then, in the orcish mines, he ran into massive starvation problems which
led into eating orc corpses (yeech) with illness + hunger as result. So
he desperately left the Mines and entered a widely unexplored level,
hunting for food (with still low on HP due to illness). He survived even
that, but still no stock of food. The only available option was hunting
for killer bees (who appeared plentiful in that game, he also had
res_poison and could eat them) when he found a mini Hive which should
solve his problems for a while. Unfortunately he run out of mana and had
to use his randart weapon which triggered his berserk mutation while
already hungry. When berserking was over, most of the bees where dead
and he starved to dead. What an unexpected end, starvation problems are
pretty rare in my games... :-/

> I've tried a few KeAEs, but they never got anywhere. I think that
> could be a nice fighter-mage combination.

I never tried this, but then I don't like fighter-mages very much. When
I play them it's usually not intentional but a result of some very
special findings...

>> Btw, I never play my GEAEs with Vehumet anymore, but Sif Muna
>> instead. Always. Every move counts, no time for stupid praying! ;-)
>
> Personally I think that help with summoning and conjurations is a lot
> nicer than getting all the books, but somehow you always find the
> books you want lying around on the floor when worshipping SM, but
> never with Vehumet...

The books are not the reason why I prefer Sif Muna. I just find the
constantly praying and pleasing Vehumet not only annoying but even
dangerous sometimes. Just for example a typical early game situation:
you see an orc wizard and it's your turn. With Vehumet I tend to pray
immediately (which probably is a mistake already and I better should
pray somewhere during the fight, but then it can be too late since orc
wizards are not very tough and sometimes they are dead before you can
pray), the wizard gets the first 'active' turn which results in getting
some nasty blow into my face.

And that's the difference with Sif Muna. My first move here would be
Mephitic Cloud and the wizard is too confused to cast any spell. Speed
is essential, particularly with several spellcasters around. You have to
use the small time window in which the spellcasters are still confused.
With certain encounters (centaurs for instance) I also need my first
move(s) for preparations like Repel Missiles, perhaps Swiftness and
Levitation and then there's just no time to pray.

Rubinstein
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 1:14:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 7:12:38 PM bork 3/2/2005 bork bork:

[...]

> > Hmm, if you want a nice "no-pray" god and you're sometimes
> > part-fighter, you could always do Elyvilon. The only disadvantage is
> > that he's on the verge of becoming trendy. :-)
>
> Actually I thought about this, but having to wake up sleeping or unaware
> monsters before every fight is too much in contrast to the "every move
> counts" concept (and pretty bothersome, too).

That's the Shining One. You can stab all you want with Elyvilon. (I swear I
also saw myself being able for some reason to use a weapon of venom without
angering him, but I won't vouch for that.)

Erik
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 2:45:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Erik Piper wrote:
> bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 7:12:38 PM bork 3/2/2005 bork bork:
>
> [...]
>
>> > Hmm, if you want a nice "no-pray" god and you're sometimes
>> > part-fighter, you could always do Elyvilon. The only disadvantage
>> > is that he's on the verge of becoming trendy. :-)
>>
>> Actually I thought about this, but having to wake up sleeping or
>> unaware monsters before every fight is too much in contrast to the
>> "every move counts" concept (and pretty bothersome, too).
>
> That's the Shining One. You can stab all you want with Elyvilon. (I
> swear I also saw myself being able for some reason to use a weapon of
> venom without angering him, but I won't vouch for that.)

Yes, you're right with both stabbing and venom weapons (I also found the
latter odd). But necromancy (spell or device) isn't allowed, so you
can't use draining weapons. Summoning is also somewhat restricted (e.g.
no unholy stuff like call imp or horrible things) and you have to take
care of your friends.
All in all my god spoiler table shows 7(!) minus* for Elyvilon against 0
with Sif Muna!

* minus stands for "may have negative effect on your piety".

Rubinstein
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 5:04:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote in message news:<d05sbn$tei$00$1@news.t-online.com>...

> > Even the Book of the Sky doesn't help that much - Lightning bolt isn't
> > that good compared to the other elemental spells.
>
> Here I disagree. I recall they were history after an average of 2 blows
> of Lighting Bolt. Maybe it needs a very high air skill and/or a staff
> of air which I was using at that time. Lighting Bolt was at least more
> powerful than I expected from it's description.

You'll want insulation if you're using Lightning Bolt, so a staff of
air is a big help. But compared to the other elements' spells of the
same level it's fairly weak IMHO. It's a lot less reliable than the
other bolts, and when you can't use bounces to get in several hits
it's a lot less attractive. I'd like a spell version of the electric
orb that Makhleb gives you (but that would OTOH make his powers less
unique).

> And that's the difference with Sif Muna. My first move here would be
> Mephitic Cloud and the wizard is too confused to cast any spell. Speed
> is essential, particularly with several spellcasters around. You have to
> use the small time window in which the spellcasters are still confused.
> With certain encounters (centaurs for instance) I also need my first
> move(s) for preparations like Repel Missiles, perhaps Swiftness and
> Levitation and then there's just no time to pray.

Like Erik already said, that's a mistake. Since MC doesn't kill you
don't need to pray before you cast it. When you get Enchantment up a
bit and enough spellpoints I find that you can run around with
Swiftness and Repel Missiles active all the time. Keeps up the good
feelings with SM too as a bonus.

/Johan
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 5:48:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 11:45:28 AM bork 3/3/2005 bork bork:

> Erik Piper wrote:
> > bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 7:12:38 PM bork 3/2/2005 bork bork:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> > Hmm, if you want a nice "no-pray" god and you're sometimes
> >> > part-fighter, you could always do Elyvilon. The only disadvantage
> >> > is that he's on the verge of becoming trendy. :-)
> >>
> >> Actually I thought about this, but having to wake up sleeping or
> >> unaware monsters before every fight is too much in contrast to the
> >> "every move counts" concept (and pretty bothersome, too).
> >
> > That's the Shining One. You can stab all you want with Elyvilon. (I
> > swear I also saw myself being able for some reason to use a weapon of
> > venom without angering him, but I won't vouch for that.)
>
> Yes, you're right with both stabbing and venom weapons (I also found the
> latter odd). But necromancy (spell or device) isn't allowed, so you
> can't use draining weapons. Summoning is also somewhat restricted (e.g.
> no unholy stuff like call imp or horrible things) and you have to take
> care of your friends.
> All in all my god spoiler table shows 7(!) minus* for Elyvilon against 0
> with Sif Muna!
>
> * minus stands for "may have negative effect on your piety".
>
> Rubinstein

Johan's victory has, I guess, established that Elyvilon ain't bad at all for
a pure figher. :-)

In practice I find keeping off Elyvilon's bad side a snap for fighter-mages
-- your XP is already spread a bit too thin anyway, so having incentive NOT
to invest in summoning, necro, and poison magic is a GOOD thing IME. That
just leaves the weapons restriction (easy enough -- just don't use them; the
forbidden types are nice, but surely not irreplaceable) and the
attack-during-prayer restriction. So just never pray except when saccing...
in practice, when I have high piety, I find it hard to remember not to fight
in the period after saccing and before the prayer ends, in which case I just
have to gather-and-sac and stay out of dangerous areas until Ely is mollified
again.

As for pure mages -- If you're going for a "pure" Air Elementalist using
Shock/Meph, then I can see how the ban on poison magic would be a
show-stopper. And anyway, pure mages mainly need a) ways and means to
generate damage, b) ways to amplify damage, and c) emergency responses.
Vehumet gives all three directly; SM gives all three indirectly (through
books), and Ely only gives c), so only makes sense if you feel more secure in
your solution for a) and b) than for c)...

Weird tidbit of the day: Elyvilon is AFAIK the only god who *does not* punish
you for switching religions. (Actually, ISTR Zin and/or TSO only punish you
if you switch to an evil god, but I'm not sure.)

Weird thought of the day: Theoretically, a summoner could worship Ely; it's
just that most of the healing would have to go to the pets. Would make an
interesting challenge game (as if Crawl needed those).

Erik
Anonymous
March 3, 2005 6:47:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 3:21:43 AM bork 3/3/2005 bork bork:

> Johan Strandell wrote:
> > Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote in message
> > news:<d04fi6$2kc$00$1@news.t-online.com>...

[...]

> Then, in the orcish mines, he ran into massive starvation problems which
> led into eating orc corpses (yeech) with illness + hunger as result.

Strange. Do you mean to say you avoid eating corpses that could make you
sick? Loonie also once wrote something that suggested he did this... I find
that the benefit of eating "not entirely clean" corpses outweighs the cost,
personally.

As for the Orc Mines in particular -- perhaps because I only eat non-chunk
food as a last resort, I've never had strategic problems with food there.
Tactically speaking, I have gone there a few times with not enough rations
from my stash and starved that way, due to the problem of not being able to
dissect in peace, so to speak. The "mouse in the teeth," grabbing a whole
corpse and taking it upstairs for dissection, seems to help here.

> So he desperately left the Mines and entered a widely unexplored level,
> hunting for food (with still low on HP due to illness). He survived even
> that, but still no stock of food. The only available option was hunting
> for killer bees (who appeared plentiful in that game, he also had
> res_poison and could eat them) when he found a mini Hive which should
> solve his problems for a while. Unfortunately he run out of mana

What were using to kill the bees? IME even a poor conjurer like a
fighter-mage can take out bees with magic pretty effectively as long as they
stick consistently to using Magic Dart. (Really!) Bees' main defense is the
difficulty of hitting them, not their amount of hit points. Magic dart may be
weak, but it hits with perfect accuracy even against those nasty killer bees.
If you worship Vehumet or you just get lucky and find a random book of
Annihilations, you can later graduate to Iskenzanglebooby's Really Big Magic
Dart, which is the same principle, only better.

> and had to use his randart weapon which triggered his berserk mutation
> while already hungry. When berserking was over, most of the bees where
> dead and he starved to dead. What an unexpected end, starvation problems
> are pretty rare in my games... :-/

Such a brave end! Somehow I am reminded of Oobie the Walking Pincushion (whom
I finally laid to his final rest a few days ago -- I was a bit frightened, as
conjurer ghosts are always a bit scary, but thanks to my quick blade, I beat
up on him too fast for him to really do much).

[...]

[SM vs. Vehumet]

> The books are not the reason why I prefer Sif Muna. I just find the
> constantly praying and pleasing Vehumet not only annoying but even
> dangerous sometimes. Just for example a typical early game situation:
> you see an orc wizard and it's your turn. With Vehumet I tend to pray
> immediately (which probably is a mistake already and I better should
> pray somewhere during the fight, but then it can be too late since orc
> wizards are not very tough and sometimes they are dead before you can
> pray),

That is indeed the mistake. If you survive, it doesn't matter that you missed
one chance to gain piety. If you die, your attempt to have gained piety will
have failed anyway -- 'cuz yer dead!

I know the problem very well. It's a hard habit to break, the one of trying
to squeeze piety out of every kill when playing a Vehumetite. I find it helps
to keep in mind that, if you do much "tourism," (things like Hell, the Pits,
the Tomb, etc.) you will spend much or most of the game with piety maxxed out
anyway, so there's no rush.

> the wizard gets the first 'active' turn which results in getting
> some nasty blow into my face.
>
> And that's the difference with Sif Muna. My first move here would be
> Mephitic Cloud and the wizard is too confused to cast any spell.

And that's the other thing. Once you've got them confused, you can usually
afford to spend a turn to start praying anyway.


> Speed is essential, particularly with several spellcasters around.

....except in this case, where you first make sure you can survive, and then
pray if there's time.

Erik

PS If you're in the mood to blow your mind with music again, I might suggest:

http://www.hearingdouble.co.uk/ccc/

I will say nothing; the music will speak.

Erik^2
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 10:55:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

johan.strandell@gmail.com (Johan Strandell) wrote:
>Like Erik already said, that's a mistake. Since MC doesn't kill you
>don't need to pray before you cast it. When you get Enchantment up a
>bit and enough spellpoints I find that you can run around with
>Swiftness and Repel Missiles active all the time. Keeps up the good
>feelings with SM too as a bonus.

Yeah, but don't you start to look like you're from Three Mile Island
after a little while?
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.ht...
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 12:19:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

bork bork bork Martin Read bork 8:55:30 AM bork 3/4/2005 bork bork:

> johan.strandell@gmail.com (Johan Strandell) wrote:
> > Like Erik already said, that's a mistake. Since MC doesn't kill you
> > don't need to pray before you cast it. When you get Enchantment up a
> > bit and enough spellpoints I find that you can run around with
> > Swiftness and Repel Missiles active all the time. Keeps up the good
> > feelings with SM too as a bonus.
>
> Yeah, but don't you start to look like you're from Three Mile Island
> after a little while?

You're thinking of Swiftness's elder brother Haste. Swiftness affect movement
speed only, and only affects it a little (even being a little faster than 1:1
to monsters is still very important). Note that you can make swiftness
swifter by combining it with levitation or flying.

RM's elder brother Deflect Missiles is non-mutagenic, unless you count all
the miscasts you get if you try to get started with it too early.

Erik
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 1:46:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Erik Piper wrote:
> bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 3:21:43 AM bork 3/3/2005 bork bork:
>
>> Johan Strandell wrote:
>> > Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote in message
>> > news:<d04fi6$2kc$00$1@news.t-online.com>...
>
> [...]
>
>> Then, in the orcish mines, he ran into massive starvation problems
>> which led into eating orc corpses (yeech) with illness + hunger as
>> result.
>
> Strange. Do you mean to say you avoid eating corpses that could make
> you sick?

Usually I try to avoid orcish stuff, yes. They seem to give very low
nutrition (my feeling from experience, what do the tables say?) and they
also seem to rot away uncommonly fast. So, if i _have_ to eat orc
corpses, I try to eat them as fresh as possible (preferably from the
floor, still hot and steaming). Whenever I start eating orc corpses,
it's usually the beginning of driving into deep trouble...

> that the benefit of eating "not entirely clean" corpses outweighs the
> cost, personally.
>
> As for the Orc Mines in particular -- perhaps because I only eat
> non-chunk food as a last resort, I've never had strategic problems
> with food there.

My experience differ. So you were just lucky or I'm always unlucky.
However, bon appetite! ;-)

>> [killer bee hunting]
>
> [Magic darts recommended against killer bees]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind next time. I was using Throw Flame which
of course is more expensive than Magic Dart.

> ... you can later graduate to Iskenzanglebooby's

ROFLOL!

> [SM vs. Vehumet]
>
>> [constantly praying and pleasing Vehumet]
>
> I know the problem very well. It's a hard habit to break, the one of
> trying to squeeze piety out of every kill when playing a Vehumetite.

You're talking to someone who tends to make a habit of almost
everything, not just cigarettes and coffee, but even such bizarre things
like spinach and carrot juice. Really, I'm not kidding!

>> And that's the difference with Sif Muna. My first move here would be
>> Mephitic Cloud and the wizard is too confused to cast any spell.
>
> And that's the other thing. Once you've got them confused, you can
> usually afford to spend a turn to start praying anyway.

I doubt you always know the exact duration of confusion since, like so
many other things in Crawl, it's highly randomized. More often than not
I have to 'refresh' the monsters confusion and I even don't like the
probability of having a move wasted due to a prayer in such a case. If
you're fighting a single wizard, your decision might be easy. Usually
you have to fight groups, though...

>> Speed is essential, particularly with several spellcasters around.
>
> ...except in this case, where you first make sure you can survive, and
> then pray if there's time.

Anyway, I guess the facts and objectives are on your side. Unfortunately
you're talking to an orthodox Sif Munian zealot who prefers maximum
freedom over everything else. ;-)
And if being a Sif Muniac is senseless, it fits to GEAEs who are at
least senseless as well.

> PS If you're in the mood to blow your mind with music again, I might
> suggest:
>
> http://www.hearingdouble.co.uk/ccc/

Ah, another candy. More, more, more!
Thanks a lot :-)

Rubinstein
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 5:52:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Martin Read <mpread@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
> johan.strandell@gmail.com (Johan Strandell) wrote:
[...]
>>When you get Enchantment up a bit and enough spellpoints I find that
>>you can run around with Swiftness and Repel Missiles active all the
>>time. Keeps up the good feelings with SM too as a bonus.

> Yeah, but don't you start to look like you're from Three Mile Island
> after a little while?

Swiftness and Repel Missiles don't cause magical contamination. You're
probably thinking of Haste, which does.

--
Darshan Shaligram <scintilla@gmail.com> Deus vult
Anonymous
March 4, 2005 6:12:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 10:46:17 AM bork 3/4/2005 bork bork:

> Erik Piper wrote:
> > bork bork bork Rubinstein bork 3:21:43 AM bork 3/3/2005 bork bork:
> >
> >> Johan Strandell wrote:
> >> > Rubinstein <picommander@t-online.de> wrote in message
> >> > news:<d04fi6$2kc$00$1@news.t-online.com>...
> >
> > [...]
> >
[...]
> > Strange. Do you mean to say you avoid eating corpses that could make
> > you sick?
>
> Usually I try to avoid orcish stuff, yes. They seem to give very low
> nutrition (my feeling from experience, what do the tables say?)

All chunks within the same chunk category are created equal, and there aren't
many categories. I'll spare you the full spoiler, and just say that chunks
can be clean (e.g. rats), mutagen (e.g. shapeshifter) bad mutagen (rotten
chunks from e.g. shapeshifter), undead (e.g. necrophage), poisonous (e.g.
kobold), rotten, or contaminated (e.g. orc). Regarding the latter, Erwan's
food spoiler, the ultimate source outside the code itself, states:

Contaminated:
If you're a Ghoul, you are healed a few HP, have 1/4 chance of
losing 1 point of rotting and gain nutrition. If you're a Kobold
or a Troll, 44/45 chance of same effect as clean. If you're an
Hill Orc or an Ogre, 14/15 of same effect as clean. If you're
another specie, 2/3 of same effect as clean. Else, disease
player; no nutrition.

....and regarding ALL chunks that provide nutrition (no matter what their
category), it states:

| | |Bonus for |Bonus for | |
|Name |Nutrition|carnivorous|herbivorous|Mass |
+-----------------------+---------+-----------+-----------+-----+
|chunk of meat (**) | 1000 | | | 100 |

(**) Food that cannot be eaten by herbivorous (PC with the herbivorous
mutation at least twice)

So that's the story on Orc chunks.

> and they also seem to rot away uncommonly fast.

"Rotten meat is generated by clean and contaminated corpses or chunks
after about 200 turns (depending on your speed); mutagen chunks or
corpses become bad mutagen instead."

> So, if i have to eat orc
> corpses, I try to eat them as fresh as possible (preferably from the
> floor, still hot and steaming). Whenever I start eating orc corpses,
> it's usually the beginning of driving into deep trouble...

I think you're confusing holographic orc corpses with orc corpses as
programmed. ;-)

Keep in mind that when observing a series of single cases, it's easy to get
confused by long, yet perfectly normal runs of bad rolls (here, the sickness
outcome).

[...]

> However, bon appetite! ;-)

The nice things about raw orc flesh it that you usually get to taste it
twice! If the first one doesn't quite physically bring an ancestor back onto
your taste buds, the 1d3rd one after that will!

> >> [constantly praying and pleasing Vehumet]
> >
> > I know the problem very well. It's a hard habit to break, the one of
> > trying to squeeze piety out of every kill when playing a Vehumetite.
>
> You're talking to someone who tends to make a habit of almost
> everything, not just cigarettes and coffee, but even such bizarre things
> like spinach and carrot juice. Really, I'm not kidding!

Yeaaaargh, cigarettes... I'm down to the 7 mg patches now and have been in
fairly permanent mild abstinence mode since the drop from 14 mg... the day
they check me in to Hell, I'm heading over to have a word with Mr. Nicot.

> >> And that's the difference with Sif Muna. My first move here would be
> >> Mephitic Cloud and the wizard is too confused to cast any spell.
> >
> > And that's the other thing. Once you've got them confused, you can
> > usually afford to spend a turn to start praying anyway.
>
> I doubt you always know the exact duration of confusion

I don't, but it's long enough. :-)

> since, like so
> many other things in Crawl, it's highly randomized. More often than not
> I have to 'refresh' the monsters confusion and I even don't like the
> probability of having a move wasted due to a prayer in such a case. If
> you're fighting a single wizard, your decision might be easy. Usually
> you have to fight groups, though...

'Course, my preferred pure spellcasters are fire-earth conjurers, who don't
often mess with so much finesse. :-)

[...]

[music]

[...] More, more, more!

Hmm... just five words (I've used up about double my word allotment for 2005
just today, I think):

Google for "People Like Us".

Erik
Anonymous
March 8, 2005 5:55:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

bork bork bork Johan Strandell bork 12:27:35 AM bork 3/3/2005 bork bork:

Some bits and pieces I meant to answer a while back; Crawl discussion is
kinda quiet right now, so...

[Johann: the annoyance/difficulty of juggling active spells with
non-fighters; me: not found it troublesome]

> I was more thinking about fighter-mages than pure mages. I've been
> playing a lot of Transmuters, and with them you have to juggle spell
> points, spell durations (Blade hands...), hit points, and usually
> prayer too, so it's a bit more involved than just whacking things from
> a distance. I suppose the same goes for crusaders, but I've never got
> anywhere with them.

After the first couple of levels, I find spell point management to be a
non-issue for fighter-mages, as long they do little or no conjuring -- the
powerup spells simply don't eat enough spell points for that. (This may be
because I scum so much XP into Spellcasting in the early game, though.)

That leaves HP, prayer, and durations. Prayer first. Although I feel silly
for repeating this in post after post, I guess it's relevant here: Ely is so
good for Crusaders it's practically a no-brainer. (I have a suspicion the
word "crusade" in his description is a pointed hint at this.) This is
because, before you get an "oRS and at any time after that when you need to
wear some other amulet, Ely can provide the most important function of an
"oRS instead: his cheap Purification power cures post-berserk slowing.

(I also just love Tomb-robbing, and Ely is great for that as well (e.g.
Purification removes the Rot condition), but that's another matter. :-) )

Thus the best choice for a crusader IMO is prayer-free, so that's one less
complication. But for my occasional "prayerful" crusaders (generally
TicklyWhaBooglyHa worshippers), I tend to go with stealth and include prayer
in my overall routine before a heavy battle: duck around a corner before I'm
detected, initiate desired effects in order from longest- to
shortest-lasting, and swing back into the baddie's/baddies' LOS. And if, due
to early detection or whatever, keeping the prayer up until victory is
harmful to my health, I tend to just let the consecration slide. If I live,
there'll be more where that came from.

Durations... well, it's not hard to tell when a spell has turned off, if
that's what you mean. If you mean the trouble of keeping the most important
stuff active, it kinda depends on what spells are important. Fire brand is a
pain since it can't be renewed midstream; by midgame, though, you're not
usually depending on it anyway. (I say strictly "fire brand," because it's
the better, more conservative option in that it ensures you won't be left
with no easy route for the Swamp if you never find a decent weapon of
flaming. It does however have the downside that it hinders the development of
Oz's Armour if you're a dodging Crusader.) Regeneration I don't play with
much because of the Ely route; from my experience when using it with
non-Crusaders, I find it to be something that you just let slide if it
expires mid-battle, unless it's a multiple-waves sort of thing where you
can't avoid a second wave, but you can prepare for it. Haste is something you
cast only when your life depends on it, and generally the concern is to
shorten it (i.e. make sure your "oRS isn't on), not lengthen it. Armoring and
deflection spells are both, it seems, renewable midterm. For the odd
shortblades crusaders, there's the annoyance of keeping Short Blade fresh
(it's really short in duration, but stackable); generally, it's how I spent
1-turn breathers in my Halfling game. Berserk rage is, of course, the last
thing you cast before charging off, if the situation demands Berserk Rage.

HP... with Ely and Berserk Rage, HP aren't usually a problem. :-)

> But for pure spellcasters, I definitely agree. With one exception:
> checking if a monster needs a new dose of Sticky flame when you're
> playing a FE. :) 

Actually, at the moment, I AM playing an FE. His "tagline" reads something
like:

Lovecats the Elven Ballista
(Level 25 Deep Elf Fire Elementalist)

....and he never learned Sticky Flame. (Though he did have every other spell
in Flames memorized at one point or another.) He can show you some nice
crossbow tricks, however.

Oh, you meant NORMAL fire elementalists, didn't you? :-)

> The thing about fighters is that they usually have fewer options, and
> really need a nice weapon and some good armour, which is far from
> guaranteed.

Actually -- thinking of the healer you just ascended -- I think some healers
start out with a quarterstaff, which, though a bad weapon in the grand scheme
of things, is a fantastic starting weapon -- on my personal super-scientific
"add accuracy to damage and fudge for speed and handedness" scale, it beats
all other starting weapons, I think. But besides the theory, I find it a good
early weapon in practice, too. Better for a fighter-mage than a fighter,
though, and many races have no-brainer weapon choices that can be described
in brief as "not a quarterstaff."

Trolls also tend to start out with a really sweet weapon. ;-)

> Spellcasters are guaranteed more spells than they can use
> if they go with Sif Muna, so they have the flexibility.

I find Sif Muna a bit of a dead end -- so you get all the books, and... then
what? Vehumet keeps on giving and giving and giving... as long as you know
how to squeeze the most out of the random allotment of books you slowly
accrue. If your starting book is good enough, it's not really a problem no
matter what.

> And from that comes the bigger opportunities for screwups.

The biggest screwup with a mage is leaning on the keys, really. The closest
thing to a real fighter I brought down to the endgame -- a Hill Orc Crusader
-- could afford to accidentally stand next to something dangerous for several
turns. A mage or ordinary fighter-mage can't.

Dodging characters of all types -- who usually, though not always, will be
something other than pure fighters -- lose the core of their defense when
paralyzed or unconscious (post-berserk syndrome...). Armored fighters have
the upper hand here.

A mage, unlike a fighter-mage, has to take care never to have too few MP for
an escape. Not doing that was the source of the endgame pure-mage death.

> It cuts both ways: a mage
> can (usually) deal with most things in some way or other, while a
> fighter only can fight or run away. When faced with a monster than
> they can handle they can only run away...

....unless they're cut off from the stairs, unlikely to land safely when
teleporting, unable to teleport and/or slower than your nearby foes... then
you can only die. Still, pure fighters are indeed pretty hot stuff in Crawl.

Erik
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 5:02:43 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote in message news:<395snpF5sh9fsU1@individual.net>...
> bork bork bork Johan Strandell bork 12:27:35 AM bork 3/3/2005 bork bork:

> After the first couple of levels, I find spell point management to be a
> non-issue for fighter-mages, as long they do little or no conjuring -- the
> powerup spells simply don't eat enough spell points for that. (This may be
> because I scum so much XP into Spellcasting in the early game, though.)

Agreed.

> That leaves HP, prayer, and durations. Prayer first. Although I feel silly
> for repeating this in post after post, I guess it's relevant here: Ely is so
> good for Crusaders it's practically a no-brainer. (I have a suspicion the
> word "crusade" in his description is a pointed hint at this.) This is
> because, before you get an "oRS and at any time after that when you need to
> wear some other amulet, Ely can provide the most important function of an
> "oRS instead: his cheap Purification power cures post-berserk slowing.

But if you don't play Crusaders and/or doesn't worship Ely then things
get quite different. (See below.)

> Durations... well, it's not hard to tell when a spell has turned off, if
> that's what you mean. If you mean the trouble of keeping the most important
> stuff active, it kinda depends on what spells are important. Fire brand is a
> pain since it can't be renewed midstream; by midgame, though, you're not
> usually depending on it anyway. (I say strictly "fire brand," because it's
> the better, more conservative option in that it ensures you won't be left
> with no easy route for the Swamp if you never find a decent weapon of
> flaming. It does however have the downside that it hinders the development of
> Oz's Armour if you're a dodging Crusader.) Regeneration I don't play with
> much because of the Ely route; from my experience when using it with
> non-Crusaders, I find it to be something that you just let slide if it
> expires mid-battle, unless it's a multiple-waves sort of thing where you
> can't avoid a second wave, but you can prepare for it. Haste is something you
> cast only when your life depends on it, and generally the concern is to
> shorten it (i.e. make sure your "oRS isn't on), not lengthen it. Armoring and
> deflection spells are both, it seems, renewable midterm. For the odd
> shortblades crusaders, there's the annoyance of keeping Short Blade fresh
> (it's really short in duration, but stackable); generally, it's how I spent
> 1-turn breathers in my Halfling game. Berserk rage is, of course, the last
> thing you cast before charging off, if the situation demands Berserk Rage.

With my current character, a MeTM, I've had to constantly juggle Oz's
armour, Repel missiles and Blade hands. That the latter makes
spellcasting harder is an interesting complication. He didn't find
enough armour so he had to have Oz's armour active to survive melee
combat, and it tends to run out mid-combat fairly often. Add prayer to
that (I prefer Makhleb for my transmuters) and you have your hands
full. A turn spent for prayer or for renewing spells is a free turn
for the opposition, and if you're going with Makhleb, a turn where
you're (potentially) not getting any HP:s or MP:s back.

I had a couple of interesting situations in the Elven Halls when
adding Silence to the mix, especially since that means you can't cast
spells until Silence runs out, and when it does it means that those
unfriendly deep elves can cast their spells too.

> HP... with Ely and Berserk Rage, HP aren't usually a problem. :-)

Neither with Makhleb. :) 

> Lovecats the Elven Ballista
> (Level 25 Deep Elf Fire Elementalist)
<snip>
> Oh, you meant NORMAL fire elementalists, didn't you? :-)

:) 
Preparing yourself for the bows patch, are you? ;) 

> > The thing about fighters is that they usually have fewer options, and
> > really need a nice weapon and some good armour, which is far from
> > guaranteed.
>
> Actually -- thinking of the healer you just ascended -- I think some healers
> start out with a quarterstaff, which, though a bad weapon in the grand scheme
> of things, is a fantastic starting weapon -- on my personal super-scientific
> "add accuracy to damage and fudge for speed and handedness" scale, it beats
> all other starting weapons, I think. But besides the theory, I find it a good
> early weapon in practice, too. Better for a fighter-mage than a fighter,
> though, and many races have no-brainer weapon choices that can be described
> in brief as "not a quarterstaff."

My healer ditched the quarterstaff the instant he found his first axe.
Decent early weapons can usually be found, but often I find myself
hunting for a better weapon in the early midgame, and not getting a
way of dishing out enough damage will kill you directly or indirectly.
It depends a lot on what weapon you want though; axes are common
enough if you can survive the orcish mines (but that can depend on
finding something better than a +0 hand axe - catch 22), and maces and
clubs are plenty. Swords or polearms aren't as common.

With most spellbooks you get a nice progression of spells, so it's
definitely not as big a problem for magic users.

> > Spellcasters are guaranteed more spells than they can use
> > if they go with Sif Muna, so they have the flexibility.
>
> I find Sif Muna a bit of a dead end -- so you get all the books, and... then
> what? Vehumet keeps on giving and giving and giving... as long as you know
> how to squeeze the most out of the random allotment of books you slowly
> accrue. If your starting book is good enough, it's not really a problem no
> matter what.

I'm not that fond of Sif Muna myself, just wanted to point out that
getting lots of spellbooks isn't a problem for a spellcaster. Compared
to say Okawaru you're guaranteed to get something useful fairly soon -
it doesn't take that long to get your first book, unlike getting a
nice weapon from Okawaru or Trog.

> > And from that comes the bigger opportunities for screwups.
>
> The biggest screwup with a mage is leaning on the keys, really. The closest
> thing to a real fighter I brought down to the endgame -- a Hill Orc Crusader
> -- could afford to accidentally stand next to something dangerous for several
> turns. A mage or ordinary fighter-mage can't.

I'm not sure if I agree. A mage usually have lot less hitpoints and
worse AC/EV, so mistakes tend to be fatal. And with more options you
need to think more about the alternatives. A pure fighter can just
wade in or run away, while a mage possibly has 10-15 different spells
to choose from, and different ways of using them, so the potential
actions aren't as clearcut as for the fighter. More decisions in Crawl
usually mean more opportunities for bad decisions. :) 

I killed a nice GEAE who met a dragon by trying to use magic (I think
the fatal mistake was not knowing that dragons aren't confused by
Mephilitic cloud). Any sensible fighter (or sensible mage for that
matter) would have run away the instant he saw the dragon.

> A mage, unlike a fighter-mage, has to take care never to have too few MP for
> an escape. Not doing that was the source of the endgame pure-mage death.

Which illustrates my point: a mage has more opportunities for action,
but that comes at the cost of having to juggle more things than a
fighter. Fighters have drawbacks too: they might not even have a way
of escape if things aren't going their way (scrolls/potions can be
destroyed and wands are not guaranteed).

> > It cuts both ways: a mage
> > can (usually) deal with most things in some way or other, while a
> > fighter only can fight or run away. When faced with a monster than
> > they can handle they can only run away...
>
> ...unless they're cut off from the stairs, unlikely to land safely when
> teleporting, unable to teleport and/or slower than your nearby foes... then
> you can only die. Still, pure fighters are indeed pretty hot stuff in Crawl.

The dying part was implied when either choice doesn't cut it. :) 

/Johan
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 2:02:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Organization: http://groups.google.com

"Erik Piper" <efrniokr@sdky.cz> wrote in message
news:<395snpF5sh9fsU1@individual.net>...
> bork bork bork Johan Strandell bork 12:27:35 AM bork 3/3/2005 bork bork:

[the three things to juggle with a fighter-mage: first spell points, then...]
> > That leaves fear, surprise, and fanatical devotion to the pope. Prayer
> > first.

> > [For a Crusader, Ely's great, and Ely in turn is no-prayer. So there. Ha.]

> But if you don't play Crusaders and/or doesn't worship Ely then things
> get quite different. (See below.)

Don't you simply mean "if you don't worship Ely"? Class doesn't affect the
prayer issue if the prayer issue works out to "no prayer." Or you mean you
wouldn't consider Ely for a non-crusader fighter-mage? I still would; over
time I've found him to be really good. Maybe in part due to the very prayer
issue -- not so much from the standpoint of a *more successful* game as from
the standpoint of a *less annoying* one. 'Course there's the annoyance of
smuggling weapons to him all the time ("god of peace"... yeah right buddy,
*I* know what you want all those weapons for -- ARMED REVOLUTION!!!), but due
to how the piety system works, it actually only makes sense to run weapons to
Ely until about dlevel 10 or so, after which you can forget about him until
you need his benefits.

Also, of course, there *are* other no-consecration gods out there besides
Ely. They don't happen to be popular (except for SM, who's kind of out of the
running for a fighter-mage though), but then Ely wasn't always popular either
(still isn't? Hard to say, with so few Crawlers out there, period) outside of
healers and the roleplaying thing.

> > [spell durations]

> With my current character, a MeTM, I've had to constantly juggle Oz's
> armour, Repel missiles and Blade hands. That the latter makes
> spellcasting harder is an interesting complication. He didn't find
> enough armour so he had to have Oz's armour active to survive melee
> combat,

Actually, even with good armor I tend to cast Oz in any semi-significant
battle. You never know when things will take a turn for the worse, e.g. some
nasty reinforcments, and it's nice to have a few more hitpoints and perhaps
some leftover duration when that happens.

> and [Oz] tends to run out mid-combat fairly often.

You can stack Oz -- the maximum is 50 units (not sure whether that equals 50
turns or not, though it probably does), which amounts, with some
simplification, to 3 castings early on and 2 castings after that. Stacking
should help with the mid-combat expirations; at least it does for me. (As a
Merfolk and a dodger, you should have passable stealth, so you should be able
to get in all the prayers and powerups before entering melee... right?)

> Add prayer to that (I prefer Makhleb for my transmuters) and you have your
> hands full.

Actually, transmuters usually have their hands empty. ;-) (Though a
weapon-wielding transmuter is no more unthinkable than a spellcasting troll
or a "hunting reaver"...)

> A turn spent for prayer or for renewing spells is a free turn
> for the opposition, and if you're going with Makhleb, a turn where
> you're (potentially) not getting any HP:s or MP:s back.

Hmmm... it's hard to advise, since I personally had few duration problems and
haven't played transmuters at all recently and haven't done them "seriously"
ever... but I'll mention the usual checklist (even though I know you already
know most of it... hell, you've won, I haven't): corridors, one-turn
mid-battle breathers, conjure flame [1], dance-enhanced blinking [2],
swiftness, traffic management [3].

> I had a couple of interesting situations in the Elven Halls when
> adding Silence to the mix, especially since that means you can't cast
> spells until Silence runs out, and when it does it means that those
> unfriendly deep elves can cast their spells too.

Here I think we can compare notes a little better. Corner tricks help (they
let you reduce the time from silencing to the start of battle); so do missile
weapons (though these are right out for a merfolk). Mephitic Cloud sometimes
helps (sayeth my occasional mon-Elyvilonites). So does Evaporate (sayeth my
sneaky Elyilonites, who always rejoice at finding nasty potions in shops and
who sometimes wish the Tomb came a little earlier in the game...).

[...]

> > Lovecats the Elven Ballista
> > (Level 25 Deep Elf Fire Elementalist)
> <snip>
> > Oh, you meant NORMAL fire elementalists, didn't you? :-)

:) 
> Preparing yourself for the bows patch, are you? ;) 

Sort of, plus I always wanted my first win to be something unusual (the real
reason why I don't "do" pure fighters, I guess), and that qualified in
spades. Dead now. :-( Tomb:3. Epitaph: "Left the stairs." Running a Kenku
Fire-Elementalist-Turned-Reaver worshipping Kikkybootickly (to get
Necromutation) at the moment, since nobody seems to do Kenkus much.

> > > The thing about fighters is that they usually have fewer options, and
> > > really need a nice weapon and some good armour, which is far from
> > > guaranteed.
> >
> > Actually -- thinking of the healer you just ascended -- I think some
> > healers start out with a quarterstaff, which, though a bad weapon in the
> > grand scheme of things, is a fantastic starting weapon -- on my personal
> > super-scientific "add accuracy to damage and fudge for speed and
> > handedness" scale, it beats all other starting weapons, I think. But
> > besides the theory, I find it a good early weapon in practice, too.
Better
> > for a fighter-mage than a fighter, though, and many races have no-brainer
> > weapon choices that can be described in brief as "not a quarterstaff."

> My healer ditched the quarterstaff the instant he found his first axe.

Well yeah, it was a dwarf -- that's what I meant by the last line above. For
some other races though, the quarterstaves option really is not just more
sensible than it sounds, it's quite sensible overall. If I ever finish with
the staff-wielding human wanderer I have parked, I'll prove it to the world,
too. :-)

> Decent early weapons can usually be found, but often I find myself
> hunting for a better weapon in the early midgame, and not getting a
> way of dishing out enough damage will kill you directly or indirectly.

My crusaders tend to get stuck agonizing over whether to invest scrolls on
what they've got, or wait for a better base weapon first. My
longsword-seekers tend to suffer as they run around waiting for their
longswords. But all in all, crusadery tends to mask the lack of a good weapon
-- it's pretty easy to do damage with anything short of a tin opener when
you're berserking. Transmuters have no weapon cares either; as for my current
reaver, he avoided the shortblade woes (and wasted XP) by conjuring until
well after his first falchion, but now his scimitar is indeed starting to
look a bit weak.

'Course, it's not just your weapon that affects your fighting, so sometimes
you can do fine with a lousy base type as long as you're skilled enough or
you've got some slaying stuff or whatever.

> > It depends a lot on what weapon you want though; axes are common
> > enough if you can survive the orcish mines (but that can depend on
> > finding something better than a +0 hand axe - catch 22), and maces and
> > clubs are plenty. Swords or polearms aren't as common.

Actually, (long) swords are fine in nearly the same sense axes are -- you go
to the Mines for them, first getting a lousy training falchion and then
gradually getting stuff that's better and better. The only minus is the
shortblades period you usually have to suffer through before that. Polearms
are another story, though (Sigmund notwithstanding).

> With most spellbooks you get a nice progression of spells, so it's
> definitely not as big a problem for magic users.

'Cept for Warpers, whose book is just plain awful (apparently revenge for
them historically being just plain cheesy).

> > > [Spellcasters are flexible - look at SM]
> > [I'd rather not]

> I'm not that fond of Sif Muna myself, just wanted to point out that
> getting lots of spellbooks isn't a problem for a spellcaster. Compared
> to say Okawaru you're guaranteed to get something useful fairly soon -
> it doesn't take that long to get your first book, unlike getting a
> nice weapon from Okawaru or Trog.

Reeeally depends, though. It can sometimes take an awfully long time to get
your first book, especially to get a book that actually makes sense for your
character.

> > > And from that comes the bigger opportunities for screwups.
> >
> > The biggest screwup with a mage is leaning on the keys, really. The
> > closest thing to a real fighter I brought down to the endgame -- a Hill
> > Orc Crusader -- could afford to accidentally stand next to something
> > dangerous for several turns. A mage or ordinary fighter-mage can't.

> I'm not sure if I agree. A mage usually have lot less hitpoints and
> worse AC/EV, so mistakes tend to be fatal. And with more options you
> need to think more about the alternatives. A pure fighter can just
> wade in or run away, while a mage possibly has 10-15 different spells
> to choose from, and different ways of using them, so the potential
> actions aren't as clearcut as for the fighter. More decisions in Crawl
> usually mean more opportunities for bad decisions. :) 

Oh, I dunno. Only about a third of my memorable deaths in Crawl have related
to bad spell strategy rather than bad strategy overall, and that's with
almost all of my characters being full or partial spellcasters. 'Course on
the other hand, some have been in places where I just plain wouldn't have
even entered with a non-undead pure fighter. :-)

> I killed a nice GEAE who met a dragon by trying to use magic (I think
> the fatal mistake was not knowing that dragons aren't confused by
> Mephilitic cloud). Any sensible fighter (or sensible mage for that
> matter) would have run away the instant he saw the dragon.

Or cast Deflect Missiles, or Ice Bolt, or Crystal Spear, or Haste. Not sure
if those facts correspond or disagree with your line of thought. :-) More
ways to do better, more ways to do worse, I'd say, in half-agreement.

> A mage, unlike a fighter-mage, has to take care never to have too few MP for
> an escape. Not doing that was the source of the endgame pure-mage death.

[...]

Oof. Out of breath, and out of time.

Erik

[1] Yeah, Merfolk, fire spell. But it's only level 3...

[2] By this I mean pillar dancing so as to reach a position where the vast
majority of blink targets are good choices -- this usually means the spot
where a corridor leads into a room -- and then uncontrolled-blinking. Almost
guaranteed to create distance in an intended direction, and tends to not only
create it, but create it in spades.

[3] "Getting the rat next to you first instead of the Ogre," and letting the
*rat* attack you as you make various preparations. Recently I had a funny
denouement to a frightening situation in the Lair where I just *could not*
find a breather long enough to fully heal up, and my eventual solution was to
blast a corridor into the wall with a wand of digging, and let a rat "pound
on" me as I rested up to full health, while a spiny frog or whatever bounced
around behind it.
!