[crawl] YASD

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I really should put dangerous spells on keys that you aren't likely to
hit by accident: my level 15 KeFE just became KFC (or is that KeFC?)
by casting Fire Storm on himself when I meant to cast Bolt of Fire (f
key instead of d). It all were going just too well - both a
|Conjuration and =Fire, and decent armour and rings.

Deaths like these feel a lot more unfair than deaths from bad play.
That said, Fire Storm with 3 enhancers is pretty awesome. The final
level of the Snake Pit was fun: pray, Fire Storm, get all the mana
back, repeat until nothing moves.

Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 23 character file.

ivanka the Destroyer (Kenku)
(Level 15 Fire Elementalist)
Experience : 15/136155
Strength 11 Dexterity 15 Intelligence 18
Hit Points : -9/73 (dead) Magic Points : 18/30
AC : 9 Evasion : 19 Shield : 0
GP : 1476

You are on level 15
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is exalted by your worship.
You are hungry.

Inventory:
Hand weapons
a - a +5,+5 elven dagger of venom
d - a +0,+2 dagger of protection
n - a +1,+1 sabre
Armour
h - a +1 crested helmet
k - a +2 robe
A - a +2 elven cloak (worn)
C - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
L - the +2 leather armour of Wonder (worn)
It affects your accuracy (+2).
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+1).

Magical devices
g - a wand of lightning (8)
z - a wand of teleportation (4)
B - a wand of digging (4)
I - a wand of teleportation (8)
J - a wand of cold (13)
T - a wand of slowing (8)
Comestibles
e - 3 meat rations
s - 4 rotting chunks of hippogriff flesh
t - 4 apples
y - 5 honeycombs
Scrolls
i - a scroll of identify
m - a scroll of random uselessness
r - a scroll of detect curse
v - a scroll of fear
w - a scroll of blinking
F - 3 scrolls of teleportation
Jewellery
f - an amulet of conservation (around neck)
o - a cursed ring of teleportation
p - a ring of ice
q - an amulet of clarity
x - a ring of fire (left hand)
P - a +5 ring of evasion (right hand)
R - a ring of poison resistance
Y - a ring of sustenance
Potions
j - 3 potions of healing
l - 2 potions of invisibility
u - a potion of speed
D - 5 potions of heal wounds
Magical staves
b - a staff of conjuration (weapon)
c - a staff of air
Miscellaneous
E - a serpentine rune of Zot


You have 151 experience left.

Skills:
+ Level 3 Fighting
- Level 6 Short Blades
- Level 2 Staves
+ Level 10 Dodging
+ Level 6 Stealth
+ Level 2 Stabbing
+ Level 3 Unarmed Combat
+ Level 9 Spellcasting
+ Level 19 Conjurations
+ Level 15 Fire Magic
+ Level 4 Invocations
+ Level 2 Evocations


You have 3 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

Your Spells Type Success
Level
a - Flame Tongue Fire/Conjuration Perfect
1
b - Throw Flame Fire/Conjuration Perfect
2
c - Sticky Flame Fire/Conjuration Perfect
4
d - Bolt of Fire Fire/Conjuration Perfect
5
e - Iskenderun's Mystic Blast Conjuration Perfect
4
f - Fire Storm Fire/Conjuration Excellent
9
g - Swiftness Air/Enchantment Good
2
h - Repel Missiles Air/Enchantment Good
2

Mutations & Other Weirdness
You can sense your immediate surroundings.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Having played more Kenku than it is really healthy for a human being to
play, I shall comment upon this with pleasure.

Johan Strandell wrote:
> I really should put dangerous spells on keys that you aren't likely
to
> hit by accident: my level 15 KeFE just became KFC (or is that KeFC?)

KeFC, of course -- Kenku Fried to a Crisp.

> by casting Fire Storm on himself when I meant to cast Bolt of Fire (f
> key instead of d).

Reminds me of the time when I got DECj all the way to the Vault, only
to get "lucky" and see the firestorm I launched at a nearby portion of
the ring of guardsd get a bigger radius than I expected. I was dead
before I hit the ground.

> It all were going just too well - both a
> |Conjuration and =Fire, and decent armour and rings.

I love it when that happens.

> Deaths like these feel a lot more unfair than deaths from bad play.
> That said, Fire Storm with 3 enhancers is pretty awesome. The final
> level of the Snake Pit was fun: pray, Fire Storm, get all the mana
> back, repeat until nothing moves.

I've never been fortunate enough to be able to cast Fire Storm in the
Pits. Yummy.

[...]

> Hand weapons
> a - a +5,+5 elven dagger of venom
> d - a +0,+2 dagger of protection
> n - a +1,+1 sabre

Was the focus on short blades a deliberate choice, or happenstance?
Since Kenku can use the harder-hitting weapons, I tend to wait for
these before developing my weapon skills.

> Armour
> h - a +1 crested helmet
> k - a +2 robe
> A - a +2 elven cloak (worn)
> C - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
> L - the +2 leather armour of Wonder (worn)
> It affects your accuracy (+2).
> It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+1).

Ooh, nice. I tend to run my Kenku in heavy armor, since they
good-but-not-exceptional at stealth and dodging, and are a rarity among
spellcasters in that they are good with Armour, but a suit like that
might change my mind.

> Magical devices
> g - a wand of lightning (8)
> z - a wand of teleportation (4)
> B - a wand of digging (4)
> I - a wand of teleportation (8)
> J - a wand of cold (13)
> T - a wand of slowing (8)

Being cautious, or just a long time since your last pit stop?

[...]

> Jewellery
> f - an amulet of conservation (around neck)

A firestormer's best friend.

> o - a cursed ring of teleportation

Smart inventory choice -- I can see you're not a new kid on the block.


> p - a ring of ice
> q - an amulet of clarity
> x - a ring of fire (left hand)
> P - a +5 ring of evasion (right hand)
> R - a ring of poison resistance
> Y - a ring of sustenance

All very cautious and thus smart. (Though your chances of meeting an
orange statue in the Lair are a bit low... still, if you're like me,
you sometimes carry just-in-cases for situations not applicable in the
moment just so you won't forget them when they do become relevant.)
This is one character dump many a beginner would do well to read.
(Says the guy who hasn't won yet...)

> Potions
> j - 3 potions of healing
> l - 2 potions of invisibility

Any luck with invisibility? Any tips? I've yet to figure out when it
can help me and when not. I sure would appreciate the reduced !oHW load
from learning how to use it properly...

> + Level 3 Fighting
> - Level 6 Short Blades

Waiting for your first long blade and couldn't find one, or decided to
go with Short Blades but pumping up the spellcasting side of things for
a reliable firestorm?

[...]

> + Level 3 Unarmed Combat

This is the one advantage of short blades for staff-using Kenkus: a
free hand for punching. But there are a lot of nice 1-handed and
hand-and-a-half weapons of the harder-hitting types out there, too...

[...]

> Your Spells Type Success

> g - Swiftness Air/Enchantment Good

Swiftness + permaflight = one very hard-to-catch sniping Kenku. So sad
to die just after getting the permaflight (and the first rune)...

I bet this is the last time you put firestorm on an easy-to-reach key.


(Are you on Windows or on Linux? Loonie's site pointed me towards a
Windows tool -- sadly not available on the Net anymore due to its age
-- that, among many other things, can give function key macro
capability to Crawl, so I do all my Dyga's and "baseline" spellcasting
via function keys, which is really convenient and tends to prevent
foulups, except for shortly after a spell rearrangement of course. I
can e-mail it on request.)

Erik

 

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"Erik Piper" <erik@sky.cz> wrote in message news:<1113211602.533854.59190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...

> Johan Strandell wrote:
> > I really should put dangerous spells on keys that you aren't likely
> to
> > hit by accident: my level 15 KeFE just became KFC (or is that KeFC?)
>
> KeFC, of course -- Kenku Fried to a Crisp.

Less trademark-infringing too.

> > by casting Fire Storm on himself when I meant to cast Bolt of Fire (f
> > key instead of d).
>
> Reminds me of the time when I got DECj all the way to the Vault, only
> to get "lucky" and see the firestorm I launched at a nearby portion of
> the ring of guardsd get a bigger radius than I expected. I was dead
> before I hit the ground.

At least I'm not alone. (You never die alone in Crawl, in a way.
Someone has probably done just the same thing sometime...)

> I've never been fortunate enough to be able to cast Fire Storm in the
> Pits. Yummy.

Kenku Fried Snake, a real delicacy! (too bad I never found an
amulet of the gourmand)

> > Hand weapons
> > a - a +5,+5 elven dagger of venom
> > d - a +0,+2 dagger of protection
> > n - a +1,+1 sabre
>
> Was the focus on short blades a deliberate choice, or happenstance?
> Since Kenku can use the harder-hitting weapons, I tend to wait for
> these before developing my weapon skills.

I found a bunch of nice short blades early on (including a dagger of
distortion that meant I got a nice sightseeing tour of the Abyss as a
bonus), but I was mostly training Fighting for the extra HP. A proper
FE shouldn't melee anything if he can avoid it. I was mostly wielding
the staff anyway.

Doesn't larger/slower weapons have drawbacks for spellcasting?

> > Armour
> > h - a +1 crested helmet
> > k - a +2 robe
> > A - a +2 elven cloak (worn)
> > C - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
> > L - the +2 leather armour of Wonder (worn)
> > It affects your accuracy (+2).
> > It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+1).
>
> Ooh, nice. I tend to run my Kenku in heavy armor, since they
> good-but-not-exceptional at stealth and dodging, and are a rarity among
> spellcasters in that they are good with Armour, but a suit like that
> might change my mind.

I actually found it pretty late, but I'd have thought that the
spellcasting penalties for heavy armour would make it less attractive.
Not that it should have made much difference in my case, with the
triple help from the staff, the ring, and Vehumet.

And like I said earlier, a proper FE shouldn't be in melee range
anyway. That ring of EV +5 probably did help a lot - I didn't have too
much trouble with centaurs and such, and they were dead in two or
three turns anyway.

> > Magical devices
> > g - a wand of lightning (8)
> > z - a wand of teleportation (4)
> > B - a wand of digging (4)
> > I - a wand of teleportation (8)
> > J - a wand of cold (13)
> > T - a wand of slowing (8)
>
> Being cautious, or just a long time since your last pit stop?

I found a couple of wands when heading down, and the slowing one was
waiting to be identified. I was carrying /Cold, /Teleport, /Lightning
and /Digging as my basic backup. But if you're not wearing heavy
armour you can carry a lot more.

> > o - a cursed ring of teleportation
>
> Smart inventory choice -- I can see you're not a new kid on the block.
>

I had a couple of jewelry items that I carried around to see if they
would autoidentify, among them this.

> > p - a ring of ice
> > q - an amulet of clarity
> > x - a ring of fire (left hand)
> > P - a +5 ring of evasion (right hand)
> > R - a ring of poison resistance
> > Y - a ring of sustenance
>
> All very cautious and thus smart. (Though your chances of meeting an
> orange statue in the Lair are a bit low... still, if you're like me,
> you sometimes carry just-in-cases for situations not applicable in the
> moment just so you won't forget them when they do become relevant.)
> This is one character dump many a beginner would do well to read.
> (Says the guy who hasn't won yet...)

The =Ice and "Clarity was unidentified too, so perhaps you're reading
a bit too much into my equipment.

> > Potions
> > j - 3 potions of healing
> > l - 2 potions of invisibility
>
> Any luck with invisibility? Any tips? I've yet to figure out when it
> can help me and when not. I sure would appreciate the reduced !oHW load
> from learning how to use it properly...

I carry it, but I actually never use it. I figure it might be handy in
a tight spot, but most likely it won't since I don't know which
monsters can see invisible.

> > + Level 3 Fighting
> > - Level 6 Short Blades
>
> Waiting for your first long blade and couldn't find one, or decided to
> go with Short Blades but pumping up the spellcasting side of things for
> a reliable firestorm?

The latter.

> > Your Spells Type Success
>
> > g - Swiftness Air/Enchantment Good
>
> Swiftness + permaflight = one very hard-to-catch sniping Kenku. So sad
> to die just after getting the permaflight (and the first rune)...

My original plan was to play an air-inspired FE, just so I could get
flight+Swiftness and elementals. But I only found the Air book quite
late (as you probably can tell from my skills), and Fire magic
definitely has the destructive edge over Air.

> I bet this is the last time you put firestorm on an easy-to-reach key.
>

Definitely. It's the kind of spell you'd want a safety latch for.
Perhaps I should paint one of the keys on my keyboard red and use that
for Fire Storm?

> (Are you on Windows or on Linux? Loonie's site pointed me towards a
> Windows tool -- sadly not available on the Net anymore due to its age
> -- that, among many other things, can give function key macro
> capability to Crawl, so I do all my Dyga's and "baseline" spellcasting
> via function keys, which is really convenient and tends to prevent
> foulups, except for shortly after a spell rearrangement of course. I
> can e-mail it on request.)

I'm on OS X actually, but that's a good idea. I suspect it's possible
to map things to the F-keys with some messing around, but I have to
look into that.

/Johan

 

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Johan Strandell wrote:
> "Erik Piper" <erik@sky.cz> wrote in message
news:<1113211602.533854.59190@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>...

> > > Hand weapons
> > > a - a +5,+5 elven dagger of venom
> > > d - a +0,+2 dagger of protection
> > > n - a +1,+1 sabre
> >
> > Was the focus on short blades a deliberate choice, or happenstance?
> > Since Kenku can use the harder-hitting weapons, I tend to wait for
> > these before developing my weapon skills.
>
> I found a bunch of nice short blades early on (including a dagger of
> distortion that meant I got a nice sightseeing tour of the Abyss as a
> bonus), but I was mostly training Fighting for the extra HP. A proper
> FE shouldn't melee anything if he can avoid it. I was mostly wielding
> the staff anyway.
>
> Doesn't larger/slower weapons have drawbacks for spellcasting?

IME, fighter/conjurers will almost always be wielding their staves
during casting, once they get one. Before then, it tends to be too
early in one's conjuring development to start development of fighting.
(IMO, contrary to popular opinion, Crawl IS friendly to hybrid classes,
but they have to be good at one thing before they can start training
the other. For a reaver, that usually means conjuring. Incidentally
IMO, conjurers make better reavers than reavers do.) Also, on account
of the above, their weapon of choice may well be dictated by their
first good find in the dungeon, which usually won't come until they've
had some time to build up plenty more than enough conjuring skill to
overcome the hit... and again, they may find their first good staff
first.

Fighter/enchanters cast spells of such low level that the hinderance
from their weapons is ignorable.

Fighter/necros are somewhere inbetween IME. That is, they do benefit
from some higher level spells. But they also benefit from many cheap
spells. Ideally, by the time Pain goes out of style, the weapon
hinderance is negligible and/or they have a staff of death.
Fighter/necros have an extra factor in their favor in that they can
afford to focus on just one school, not two like a conjurer (conjuring
plus an element).

The rest, I don't know.

> > > Armour
> > > h - a +1 crested helmet
> > > k - a +2 robe
> > > A - a +2 elven cloak (worn)
> > > C - a +1 pair of gloves (worn)
> > > L - the +2 leather armour of Wonder (worn)
> > > It affects your accuracy (+2).
> > > It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+1).
> >
> > Ooh, nice. I tend to run my Kenku in heavy armor, since they
> > good-but-not-exceptional at stealth and dodging, and are a rarity
among
> > spellcasters in that they are good with Armour, but a suit like
that
> > might change my mind.
>
> I actually found it pretty late, but I'd have thought that the
> spellcasting penalties for heavy armour would make it less
attractive.
> Not that it should have made much difference in my case, with the
> triple help from the staff, the ring, and Vehumet.

Precisely, plus the same factors mentioned above. Keep in mind that the
lightest heavy armor is only -2, which isn't very hindering. And there
are some very good heavy armors of this type by the endgame, though you
may have to negotiate their purchase with a dragon. ;-)

> And like I said earlier, a proper FE shouldn't be in melee range
> anyway.

Kenkus aren't "born to" be pure-conjuring elementalists; it makes their
good fighting aptitudes go to waste. That's why God made deep elves.


Erik

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Erik Piper" <erik@sky.cz> wrote in message news:<1113319414.934830.104620@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...
> Johan Strandell wrote:

> > Doesn't larger/slower weapons have drawbacks for spellcasting?
>
> IME, fighter/conjurers will almost always be wielding their staves
> during casting, once they get one. Before then, it tends to be too
> early in one's conjuring development to start development of fighting.
> (IMO, contrary to popular opinion, Crawl IS friendly to hybrid classes,
> but they have to be good at one thing before they can start training
> the other. For a reaver, that usually means conjuring. Incidentally
> IMO, conjurers make better reavers than reavers do.) Also, on account
> of the above, their weapon of choice may well be dictated by their
> first good find in the dungeon, which usually won't come until they've
> had some time to build up plenty more than enough conjuring skill to
> overcome the hit... and again, they may find their first good staff
> first.

Crawl isn't actively opposed to hybrid classes, but IME pure types
tend to do better. Experience is a limited resource, so splitting it
between melee skills and magic will leave you lacking in damage
output, compared to pure fighters and pure mages (especially
conjurers).

Take for instance the common dungeon Ogre: a low level fighter might
be able to take it out by virtue of good HP, decent HP (can wear the
first armour suit he finds) and focus on weapon skills. A low level
mage can probably do the same (a FE for instance can definitely do it
when he gets Sticky flame, and perhaps with Throw Flame if he's got
enough mana). A lvl 4-5 Reaver, less so.

In this specific case, KeFE, I'd be inclined never to wield anything
other than a staff, except for training Fighting. FEs are the
prototypical conjurers, and they should try to draw the maximum
benefit from that.

> > And like I said earlier, a proper FE shouldn't be in melee range
> > anyway.
>
> Kenkus aren't "born to" be pure-conjuring elementalists; it makes their
> good fighting aptitudes go to waste. That's why God made deep elves.
>

I have a theory that DEs are perhaps not as good a choice for a
spellcaster as they might seem. They are great in the early game and
gain MPs like nothing, but later their lack of HP means you have to
play them very carefully when confronted with anything with a ranged
attack, or can be surprised by a hard hitting monster (the
"hydra-lurking-behind-a-corner-and-suddenly-you're-dead" encounter
that's not too uncommon in the Lair). And there's no lack of either
deeper down in the dungeon.

What this mean is that it might actually be easier playing (or perhaps
surviving is a better term) a more robust spellcaster, even if you'll
not have as good spell skills.

/Johan

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Johan Strandell wrote:
> "Erik Piper" <erik@sky.cz> wrote in message
news:<1113319414.934830.104620@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...
> > Johan Strandell wrote:
>
> > > Doesn't larger/slower weapons have drawbacks for spellcasting?
> >
> > IME, fighter/conjurers will almost always be wielding their staves
> > during casting, once they get one. Before then, it tends to be too
> > early in one's conjuring development to start development of
fighting.
> > (IMO, contrary to popular opinion, Crawl IS friendly to hybrid
classes,
> > but they have to be good at one thing before they can start
training
> > the other. For a reaver, that usually means conjuring. Incidentally
> > IMO, conjurers make better reavers than reavers do.) Also, on
account
> > of the above, their weapon of choice may well be dictated by their
> > first good find in the dungeon, which usually won't come until
they've
> > had some time to build up plenty more than enough conjuring skill
to
> > overcome the hit... and again, they may find their first good staff
> > first.
>
> Crawl isn't actively opposed to hybrid classes, but IME pure types
> tend to do better. Experience is a limited resource, so splitting it
> between melee skills and magic will leave you lacking in damage
> output, compared to pure fighters and pure mages (especially
> conjurers).

However, the skill advancement model works such that reavers, etc. will
tend to reach, say, level 12, not 9, in each main skill compared to the
fighters and conjurers with 18 in their main skills.

I've found that reavers can dish out just as much damage as conjurers
and fighters; it's just that they do it in a strange way -- wield a
staff and blast the baddies on the approach, then swap in the real
weapon for melee. It works; it's a bit more complicated (with the
disadvantages complication brings), but a bit more flexible too.

And reavers are among the more diluted hybrids; crusaders, for example,
aren't really diluting experience at all -- their magic skills are just
fighting skills by another name.

> Take for instance the common dungeon Ogre: a low level fighter might
> be able to take it out by virtue of good HP, decent HP (can wear the
> first armour suit he finds) and focus on weapon skills. A low level
> mage can probably do the same (a FE for instance can definitely do it
> when he gets Sticky flame, and perhaps with Throw Flame if he's got
> enough mana). A lvl 4-5 Reaver, less so.

At level 4-5, no reaver in his right mind will actually "be" a reaver
yet -- he'll essentially either be a fighter or a conjurer. The
breathing room to really play a reaver doesn't open up until somewhere
around the Lair IMO. So in a way I agree, but this only applies for the
opening -- the skill advancement slowdown around skill level 12 changes
this whole equation.

> In this specific case, KeFE, I'd be inclined never to wield anything
> other than a staff, except for training Fighting. FEs are the
> prototypical conjurers, and they should try to draw the maximum
> benefit from that.

Crawl's birth-classes are an illusion. Except for the practical impact
of guaranteed starting weapons/gods/spellbooks, races and de facto
classes are the only crawl "classes" that truly exist. And Kenkus have
"low-enchantment fighter-mage" written all over them.

> > > And like I said earlier, a proper FE shouldn't be in melee range
> > > anyway.
> >
> > Kenkus aren't "born to" be pure-conjuring elementalists; it makes
their
> > good fighting aptitudes go to waste. That's why God made deep
elves.
> >
>
> I have a theory that DEs are perhaps not as good a choice for a
> spellcaster as they might seem. They are great in the early game and
> gain MPs like nothing, but later their lack of HP means you have to
> play them very carefully when confronted with anything with a ranged
> attack, or can be surprised by a hard hitting monster (the
> "hydra-lurking-behind-a-corner-and-suddenly-you're-dead" encounter
> that's not too uncommon in the Lair). And there's no lack of either
> deeper down in the dungeon.

The MP aren't the only advantage; DE learn magic skills so fast that
they can pick up countless levels in auxiliary schools without batting
an eye. With careful play -- which, true, is far more needed for a DE
than a fighter -- the hydra around the corner gets one turn to attack
you before you've blinked away. Make sure you can survive that one
turn, and you're home free. By the endgame you're not just blinking
away; you're also swifting away, hasting away, deflecting missiles,
surrounding yourself with X's, surrounding yourself with stone, and
much, much more, all for the low, low price of only $99.99. Err, or
something. This isn't just theorizing; my DECj who made it to Zot:5 had
at any given point in the endgame most of the following in his list at
the same time alongside his conjurations, and all castable reliably:
haste, controlled blink, summon horrible things, teleport self, ToD,
and deflect missiles. That played a big part in how he got that far.

> What this mean is that it might actually be easier playing (or
perhaps
> surviving is a better term) a more robust spellcaster, even if you'll
> not have as good spell skills.

It's a good way, but it's not the only good way.

Erik