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D20 deity question

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Anonymous
March 31, 2005 8:14:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

Can anyone tell me why all the gods in the D20 Deities & Demigods book
seem to have an attribute minimum of 24? Only the mental attributes
of Hercules seem to be the exception, and he's of higher rank than
Imhotep, whose stats are also 24 and up.

Am I missing something about the D20 system or epic-level characters?
(Is this even the right D&D list to be asking about D20 in?)


-- Matt Jozwiak

More about : d20 deity question

Anonymous
April 1, 2005 10:26:14 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:
> Can anyone tell me why all the gods in the D20 Deities & Demigods book
> seem to have an attribute minimum of 24? Only the mental attributes
> of Hercules seem to be the exception, and he's of higher rank than
> Imhotep, whose stats are also 24 and up.
>
> Am I missing something about the D20 system or epic-level characters?
> (Is this even the right D&D list to be asking about D20 in?)

As AD&D and D&D heros has quite high ability scores, around 20+, which leads
to that AD&D and D&D dieties must have really high ability scores.



//Aho
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 10:26:15 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 06:26:14 +0200, "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net>
wrote:

>As AD&D and D&D heros has quite high ability scores, around 20+, which leads
>to that AD&D and D&D dieties must have really high ability scores.

But why 24? Even the lowliest demigod, Imhotep, has all his physical
attributes at 24. It's as if 24 is the minimum possible after one
ascends to godhood, yet I can't find any rules like that.

Additionally, none of the feats or salient abilities listed in the D20
Deities & Demigods book require attributes of 24. Some require 13,
some 29, but nothing at 24. Again, why does this particular number
keep popping up in deity stats?


-- M.J.
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Anonymous
April 1, 2005 10:32:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

"Red Beard" <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
>news:4elp41d70ndm6ki8l234hdhkv8qed9bgd7@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 01 Apr 2005 06:26:14 +0200, "J.O. Aho" <user@example.net>
> wrote:
>
> >As AD&D and D&D heros has quite high ability scores, around 20+, which
leads
> >to that AD&D and D&D dieties must have really high ability scores.
>
> But why 24? Even the lowliest demigod, Imhotep, has all his physical
> attributes at 24. It's as if 24 is the minimum possible after one
> ascends to godhood, yet I can't find any rules like that.
>
> Additionally, none of the feats or salient abilities listed in the D20
> Deities & Demigods book require attributes of 24. Some require 13,
> some 29, but nothing at 24. Again, why does this particular number
> keep popping up in deity stats?

Stop and think about what a "god" represents. They are more or less
invincible. With stats like that, high level players can't effectively kill
them. Low level players can't even scratch them. They are "gods".
The reasoning is apparently that 24 is the threshold of a limited
invulnerability. Reasonable players with reasonable weapons can't
seriously hurt them. Then look at all the other things they are
usually immune to.

I've play tested some stuff like this using NWN. What I ended up
with was a character with a challenge rating of 72. It had only one
vulnerability that an ordinary character could touch. And then only
if stunned. One of these days I may include my little experiments in
a game. I'd have to reduce them for anything less than epic players.
Anonymous
April 1, 2005 10:47:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 18:32:40 -0500, "CryptWolf"
<RWilliams01nospam@no.spam.sceinet.no.spam.com> wrote:

>Stop and think about what a "god" represents. They are more or less
>invincible. With stats like that, high level players can't effectively kill
>them. Low level players can't even scratch them. They are "gods".
>The reasoning is apparently that 24 is the threshold of a limited
>invulnerability. Reasonable players with reasonable weapons can't
>seriously hurt them. Then look at all the other things they are
>usually immune to.

Ok, but let's say I have an epic-level character who's capable of
becoming a god. Even if I had some excellent rolls for attributes,
there's still no way in heck I can get a minimum of 24 in all stats,
at least not with the 30-50 character levels the deities have.

What you seem to be saying is that the deity stats are arbitrarily
high, but if that's the case, how did they GET that high? 20 hit dice
as an outisder plus 40 character levels only gives what, 15 raises in
attributes?

Everything else in the suppliment can be mathematically deduced, such
as breaking down a deity's enormous Attack roll into component stats
and bonuses. The same cannot be done for their attribute levels?

Also, how high can a human's attributes get with experience?

-- M.J.
Anonymous
April 2, 2005 12:08:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:

> What you seem to be saying is that the deity stats are arbitrarily
> high, but if that's the case, how did they GET that high? 20 hit dice
> as an outisder plus 40 character levels only gives what, 15 raises in
> attributes?

Becoming a deity gives you a lot of extras.


> Everything else in the suppliment can be mathematically deduced, such
> as breaking down a deity's enormous Attack roll into component stats
> and bonuses. The same cannot be done for their attribute levels?
>
> Also, how high can a human's attributes get with experience?

18+15 = 33?


//Aho
April 2, 2005 5:56:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

>
>Also, how high can a human's attributes get with experience?
>
>-- M.J.


A PC's stats can go up indeffinetely, as long as they are gaining the
levels needed to earn ability increases.

They may also be increased using wish spells, but that works in a pyramid
fassion (IE: 1 wish spell the first time they want to raise a stat, 2 the second time
they raise that same stat, 3 the time after that). See wish spell for a clearer
explination than I can give. It does state that a character can have a max total of
+5 to an ability in this way and it can be done to each ability.

so, with enough wish spells, and good character ability scores, abilities
of 23 (18 + 5) are in the realm of possibility.

~Kd
Anonymous
April 2, 2005 6:23:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 13:56:27 GMT, Kd <Mousenumb [nospam!!] @ Hotmail .
Com> wrote:

>A PC's stats can go up indeffinetely, as long as they are gaining the
>levels needed to earn ability increases.
>
>They may also be increased using wish spells, but that works in a pyramid
>fassion (IE: 1 wish spell the first time they want to raise a stat, 2 the second time
>they raise that same stat, 3 the time after that). See wish spell for a clearer
>explination than I can give. It does state that a character can have a max total of
>+5 to an ability in this way and it can be done to each ability.
>
>so, with enough wish spells, and good character ability scores, abilities
>of 23 (18 + 5) are in the realm of possibility.

Alright, that helps a bit, but how about this...

Imhotep: Str 24, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 43, Wis 31, Cha 25.
He started as a human, earned 20 levels in the Expert class, and
somewhere along the way became a Divine Rank 1 demigod. Even if he
made maximum rolls on all his stats and used Wish to boost them all by
five, that still leaves everything less than his listed stats.

I agree that the normal Outsiders might have higher initial stats, and
their class levels probably don't explain how they got that tough, but
Imhotep is just an ascended human with a single level of Divine Rank.
That's only one tiny step above being a "regular" epic-level human.
So, where are the rules that explain the transition to godhood?


-- M.J.
Anonymous
April 2, 2005 11:09:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

"Red Beard" <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:59ot411vl17lvs92li7eq7tmp4rqlo5rde@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 02 Apr 2005 13:56:27 GMT, Kd <Mousenumb [nospam!!] @ Hotmail .
> Com> wrote:

> So, where are the rules that explain the transition to godhood?

I still have a copy of the old D&D Immortals boxed set. The path to
godhood is somewhat limited and not all that easy to obtain.

As I used to adapt the D&D rules to AD&D1E and back, I don't doubt
that it could be used as a guide for a 3.x edition of immortals. Having
even one PC as a god could cause some problems that you might
not want to deal with.

There is also lichdom and a few other routes to a sort of immortality
that is covered in D&D 3.x though I think you are avoiding this route.
This path is about the same as godhood but they are not gods.

PC's could become so well known that they strike instant fear into those
they encounter.. Just announcing who they are to a band of brigands
would be enough to send the poor souls running and pleading for
their lives. On the other hand, there is several versions of this and
they could simply become a bigger target for other groups.

Several ways to go with this. Players don't need to become gods.
If they wish to be gods, make them create thier own world and
become DM's. :) 
Anonymous
April 3, 2005 3:03:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:09:19 -0500, "CryptWolf"
<RWilliams01nospam@no.spam.sceinet.no.spam.com> wrote:

>Several ways to go with this. Players don't need to become gods.
>If they wish to be gods, make them create thier own world and
>become DM's. :) 

Then where do *they* find the information on how to progress from epic
level characters to deities? Why, when I ask questions, does everyone
always ask "Why do you want to know?" Do you think you're Vecna? :D 

My reason for asking all this is because I want to know if there's a
legitimate method for creating deities (or deifying characters), or if
it's all a bunch of arbitrary bologna that has no point. I want to
know *how* the Olympians got listed in Deities & Demigods.

-- M.J.
Anonymous
April 3, 2005 11:29:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

Red Beard wrote:

> Imhotep: Str 24, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 43, Wis 31, Cha 25.
> He started as a human, earned 20 levels in the Expert class, and
> somewhere along the way became a Divine Rank 1 demigod. Even if he
> made maximum rolls on all his stats and used Wish to boost them all by
> five, that still leaves everything less than his listed stats.

Even if a PC would only have Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 1, Wis 1, Cha 1, the
ability scores would be boosted to Str 24, Dex 24, Con 24, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha
24 at the moment of becoming a deity.

As far as I can remember (I'm not that much into D&D3, I DM AD&D2) there
aren't any rules for how to gain divine powers, but it wouldn't surprise me if
the D&D Immortal rules will be released for D&D3. But in the end, it's always
up to the DM to use what ever rules s/he wants.

In most cases when something big happens to a character, they usually are
moved to become NPCs and to direct control of the DM.


//Aho
Anonymous
April 3, 2005 4:15:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

"Red Beard" <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:5omu41t5l3edpmcl862q5suir24ktc69as@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:09:19 -0500, "CryptWolf"
> <RWilliams01nospam@no.spam.sceinet.no.spam.com> wrote:
>
> >Several ways to go with this. Players don't need to become gods.
> >If they wish to be gods, make them create thier own world and
> >become DM's. :) 
>
> Then where do *they* find the information on how to progress from epic
> level characters to deities? Why, when I ask questions, does everyone
> always ask "Why do you want to know?" Do you think you're Vecna? :D 
>
> My reason for asking all this is because I want to know if there's a
> legitimate method for creating deities (or deifying characters), or if
> it's all a bunch of arbitrary bologna that has no point. I want to
> know *how* the Olympians got listed in Deities & Demigods.

I would suggest reading DD appendix 2 then also go over the section
the einherjar. Get the 3.5 update for DD as it lists various levels of
divine rank. In ELH, look up Divine ascension. Characters grow as
epic level characters even into godhood. There is enough even in DD
that allows for normal character abilities even as gods.

That said, I'd still use the system in the old D&D immortals set. It gave
specific paths to godhood and made the choices for the DM easier.
As a 3.x DM, you'll need to make some decisions as to how and when
all this stuff takes effect. The paths are what you make them and may be
determined by the players. I would suggest that the PC's start at the bottom
as quasi-deities. The PC's themselves may not even realize they are
become gods with a bit of careful planning. They might get a clue
when various gods start making life difficult for them. Testing them and
perhaps even trying to prevent them from becoming gods.

As for the various gods in DD, I suspect they were given the abilities
found in mythology, stories, and other descriptions of them. The stats
are the result of an attempt to reproduce those powers in a logical
balanced fashion. Yondalla breaks the 24 barrier with a STR of 22.
The only one I found blatantly 24 was Valkyries. Zeus had a lower
limit of 28 and Hera 27. Hercules has INT 20 and WIS 21. So your
original problem with 24 seems to be some sort of made up problem.

At this point I'm inclined to say RTFM. The above is pretty much
just a quick summary of what I found by doing a bit of reading.
The one clue you need is that players are not normally eligible
to become gods until level 20 or higher. In other words epic level.
The final key is found in a small section of ELH which refers to DD.
Anonymous
April 3, 2005 5:05:15 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

On Sun, 3 Apr 2005 12:15:23 -0400, "CryptWolf"
<RWilliams01nospam@no.spam.sceinet.no.spam.com> wrote:

>As for the various gods in DD, I suspect they were given the abilities
>found in mythology, stories, and other descriptions of them. The stats
>are the result of an attempt to reproduce those powers in a logical
>balanced fashion. Yondalla breaks the 24 barrier with a STR of 22.
>The only one I found blatantly 24 was Valkyries. Zeus had a lower
>limit of 28 and Hera 27. Hercules has INT 20 and WIS 21. So your
>original problem with 24 seems to be some sort of made up problem.

Perhaps I forgot to mention this in my original post. The characters
that have a sub-normal size seem to have proportionally-reduced Str,
and most of the bigger characters do too. Hercules was the reason I
questioned the whole system...

Hercules has two mental stats below 24, yet he's at Divine Rank 5. At
the same time Imhotep, whose Rank is only 1, has even his physical
stats at 24, whereas they'd be practically ignored in an Expert.

The characters are both ascended mortals, yet the one with more Divine
Rank and character levels ends up having some lower stats? As much as
I'd like to agree with J.O.Aho's post about godhood boosting you to a
minimum of 24 (as it would otherwise seem), this particular instance
seems to invalidate that theory.

Also, I wonder if there's not a mistake in some of the other deities.
For example, Aphrodite's 32 Str, when reduced to Medium size, becomes
24. However, Apollo is listed as Large as well, yet his Str is 24
initially. I really doubt she could beat him at arm-wrestling, so I'm
inclined to believe the writer forgot to adjust something. (Either
Apollo's only Medium size, or he's missing +8 Str.)


>The final key is found in a small section of ELH which refers to DD.

I will investigate that. Thanks.


-- M.J.
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 5:08:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

"Red Beard" <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:p omr41p835clf9kicr7nl8iaroei0ossgd@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 18:32:40 -0500, "CryptWolf"
> <RWilliams01nospam@no.spam.sceinet.no.spam.com> wrote:
>
> What you seem to be saying is that the deity stats are arbitrarily
> high, but if that's the case, how did they GET that high? 20 hit dice
> as an outisder plus 40 character levels only gives what, 15 raises in
> attributes?

They're freaking gods. Mythical beings of absolute and supreme power. They
were probably *born* with their stats that high. Born, or however it is
that gods come into this world. Stepping out of giant clam shells or
whatever. The stats aren't arbitrarily high. They're set high enough that
the average character would have extreme difficulty matching a god in power
in a toe-to-toe fight. Gods are supposed to be able to sneeze and cause
lesser beings to fly out of their way. Why on earth would someone bother
wasting their time creating a god with STR 19 and WIS 16? It's not worth
it. High 20's and 30's is more like it. 24 is probably a nice, even number
that made sense to someone as a starting point, so they decided to use it.
It doesn't have to make sense. We're talking about gods here. They're
*supposed* to be beyond the realm of mortal understanding and game
mechanics.
Anonymous
April 6, 2005 5:13:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

"Red Beard" <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:5omu41t5l3edpmcl862q5suir24ktc69as@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:09:19 -0500, "CryptWolf"
> <RWilliams01nospam@no.spam.sceinet.no.spam.com> wrote:
>
> My reason for asking all this is because I want to know if there's a
> legitimate method for creating deities (or deifying characters), or if
> it's all a bunch of arbitrary bologna that has no point. I want to
> know *how* the Olympians got listed in Deities & Demigods.

With regards to the Olympians, read some ancient Greek mythology. The
stories are full of details of where Zeus and Hera and Aphrodite and
Poseidon and the others all came from. The fact that they exist as gods in
real world mythology was reason enough to include them in "Deities and
Demigods." As for *how* they got listed... I'd take a guess and say that
someone sat down at a keyboard and typed up profiles for them.

Although I guess, given enough time, a thousand chimps could've done it
too...
Anonymous
April 15, 2005 1:03:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.games.adnd (More info?)

"Red Beard" <Akahige@HotPOP.com> wrote in message
news:5omu41t5l3edpmcl862q5suir24ktc69as@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 2 Apr 2005 19:09:19 -0500, "CryptWolf"
> <RWilliams01nospam@no.spam.sceinet.no.spam.com> wrote:
>
>>Several ways to go with this. Players don't need to become gods.
>>If they wish to be gods, make them create thier own world and
>>become DM's. :) 
>
> Then where do *they* find the information on how to progress from epic
> level characters to deities? Why, when I ask questions, does everyone
> always ask "Why do you want to know?" Do you think you're Vecna? :D 
>
> My reason for asking all this is because I want to know if there's a
> legitimate method for creating deities (or deifying characters), or if
> it's all a bunch of arbitrary bologna that has no point. I want to
> know *how* the Olympians got listed in Deities & Demigods.
>
> -- M.J.
>

Simple, they held council, and made Zeus walk throughout Greece with a
petition requesting entry into "The Great Book." Then forwarded a copy of
said petition unto the Greater beings known as TSR, keeping one for
themselves, given unto Hermes <the messenger, and file clerk of the gods>.

Sorry, couldn't help myself <grin>
!