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[Crawl] Think I'm going to give up on this game...

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Anonymous
a b α HP
May 17, 2005 8:39:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Too many annoying and fairly unavoidable ways to die.

Struggling with a DeMo for a change. Hard to do enough damage but
eventually make it to the temple which was on DL 4. Convert. Finish
level, descend. Meet a centaur on DL 5. first time I've seen one and
first thing it does is shoot me with a bow... twice in one turn...
taking 3/4 of my HP.

Don't think I've the patience for a game where I have to flee quite so
often, often with no realistic chance of actually getting away and
surviving :) 

Probably wont give up as I really want to get further. Time to try
something different I guess.


Rich

More about : crawl give game

Anonymous
a b α HP
May 17, 2005 1:20:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Dafty wrote:
> Struggling with a DeMo for a change. Hard to do enough damage but
> eventually make it to the temple which was on DL 4. Convert. Finish
> level, descend. Meet a centaur on DL 5. first time I've seen one and
> first thing it does is shoot me with a bow... twice in one turn...
> taking 3/4 of my HP.

The first few levels, stay close to passageways. If there are no
passageways near the stairs, try a different set of stairs. Don't
wander into the open areas until you've cleared all the passageways you
can, and then stay as close to cover as you can. Hopefully, when you
see a centaur, you should be within a step of cover. Then you can
ambush it by standing two squares back and stepping in when you see it.

It's far from a guarantee, but I'm really starting to think centaurs
are the biggest early game threat, and it's the best I've come up with
to deal with them. It usually works.
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 17, 2005 2:35:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:
> > The first time I picked up Crawl, I got so frustrated within a
> > week that I rejected it in disgust and didn't come back to it
> > for months, so I know where you're at.
>
> Me too. Is this a universal experience? :) 
>

You know, It really must be! I am in that period of the "months". I
like Crawl and just about everything it has to offer (especially
religion). I've taken two breaks from it.

I have no real difficulty with centaurs -- that is *now* anyway...
But, after centaurs, there are ogres and orc warriors taking 15-25 hps
in *one* round. OK, I can get past them -- only to face yaks, hyrda,
etc. etc. etc. Then there is the poisoning issue. Don't have the
resist? Then "screw you!" seems to be the message here. If you need to
find more items, it becomes increasingly difficult because monster
generation seems to be **slow** in Crawl. OOD monsters -- ran into
ogre, centaur, orc priests/warriors on level *one*...

One thing that helps with all of this, though, is that there are
multiple stairs. Just go around and come back later -- *if* you have
that chance.

I like Crawl, but the learning curve is harsh. Level 14 HDFi, spent
all day working on feeling pretty good, go downstairs: ambushed by 5
yaks - dead. Level 12 HuMonk - same situation - ambushed by killer
bees, no posion resist. Not fun.
Related resources
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 17, 2005 6:12:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

RecRanger wrote:
> I like Crawl, but the learning curve is harsh. Level 14 HDFi, spent
> all day working on feeling pretty good, go downstairs: ambushed by 5
> yaks - dead. Level 12 HuMonk - same situation - ambushed by killer
> bees, no posion resist. Not fun.

HDFi? Is there a FAQ for all these crawl acronyms? If not, could either
someone write one and repost it weekly or everyone quit using them? :) 

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 17, 2005 7:56:16 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Dafty wrote:
> Too many annoying and fairly unavoidable ways to die.

It gets better after you leave the early game, but in the very
beginning, you really can end up in a situation where no amount of skill
will help. It's not very good design IMO, but since it IS the very
beginning, you haven't lost much anyway. :-)

> Struggling with a DeMo for a change. Hard to do enough damage but
> eventually make it to the temple which was on DL 4. Convert. Finish
> level, descend. Meet a centaur on DL 5. first time I've seen one and
> first thing it does is shoot me with a bow... twice in one turn...
> taking 3/4 of my HP.

Yep, centaurs are nasty. Generally in such a situation, I:

- check to see if I have a scroll of blinking; use it if none of the
other techniques below have worked/look likely to work.
- heal until I can take one fairly bad turn of attacks, then teleport
- break line-of-sight if I can do it in a single turn, then use the
turns I think I have left until LOS is restored to heal, manually
escape, or teleport-escape.

Keep in mind that centaurs are poor at melee. "If the attacker has a
knife, run away; if they have a gun, might as well charge."

> Don't think I've the patience for a game where I have to flee quite so
> often, often with no realistic chance of actually getting away and
> surviving :) 

Many possibilities for getting away will become clearer to you with time
and experience, although getting to that point can be frustrating. :-)

The first time I picked up Crawl, I got so frustrated within a week that
I rejected it in disgust and didn't come back to it for months, so I
know where you're at.

> Probably wont give up as I really want to get further. Time to try
> something different I guess.

Try some HuWa's! After a night spent with these, you'll always remember
it could be worse -- you could be playing a Human Wanderer. :-)

Erik
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 17, 2005 7:56:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Erik Piper wrote:
> The first time I picked up Crawl, I got so frustrated within a week that
> I rejected it in disgust and didn't come back to it for months, so I
> know where you're at.

Me too. Is this a universal experience? :) 

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 12:19:41 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:
>> The first time I picked up Crawl, I got so frustrated within a week
>> that I rejected it in disgust and didn't come back to it for months,
>> so I know where you're at.
>
> Me too. Is this a universal experience? :) 

Seems my formerly comparison of Crawl with a big, ugly, stinking cigar
wasn't far off: your very first one makes you coughing and vomiting and
it'll need some time until you'll try another one. Or you'll never touch
it anymore... *g*

Rubinstein
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 3:52:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"Dafty" <richard.clements@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1116329966.919576.282150@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Too many annoying and fairly unavoidable ways to die.
>
> Struggling with a DeMo for a change. Hard to do enough damage but
> eventually make it to the temple which was on DL 4. Convert. Finish
> level, descend. Meet a centaur on DL 5. first time I've seen one and
> first thing it does is shoot me with a bow... twice in one turn...
> taking 3/4 of my HP.
>
> Don't think I've the patience for a game where I have to flee quite so
> often, often with no realistic chance of actually getting away and
> surviving :) 
>
> Probably wont give up as I really want to get further. Time to try
> something different I guess.
>

It's called ``Minotaur Monk''. Go the headbutt!

--
Glen
L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 5:36:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Oddly enough my next game... (OK I didn't really want to give up just
yet :)  met a centaur fairly early on but managed to kill it (I'd picked
up a wand of fire just before so used that to soften him up). Also
killed another one. These 2 only seemed to shoot one arrow at a time
though. Maybe the first one I found had some kind of uber bow :) 
(pretty sure I wasn't slowed, although I suppose the centaur could have
been hasted)

Think that was a TrFi. Died not too long after to some git with a big
weapon which did 80% of my HP in one hit.

Oh well lives and learns. :)  Expecting death is the way forward it
seems.

I'm one who got bored of angband, not because i find the game boring,
but because once you learn enough about it, it's fairly easy to win on
nearly every game.


Rich
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 6:28:24 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Dafty wrote:
> Oddly enough my next game... (OK I didn't really want to give up just
> yet :)  met a centaur fairly early on but managed to kill it (I'd
picked

Somehow I figured you weren't going to quit.

> up a wand of fire just before so used that to soften him up). Also
> killed another one. These 2 only seemed to shoot one arrow at a time
> though. Maybe the first one I found had some kind of uber bow :) 
> (pretty sure I wasn't slowed, although I suppose the centaur could
have
> been hasted)

I like centaurs. They carry bows and arrows, both things I'm looking
for when I'm playing a berserker. They're also good to eat. As Erik
pointed out, you generally don't want to try to fight them from a
distance but toe to toe they're easy enough. The sticking close to
corridors method as mentioned by (I think it was) Igor is a standard
practice of mine. If I can't do it because the level is open, I stay
close to the outer wall and work inward in a circle.

> Think that was a TrFi. Died not too long after to some git with a big
> weapon which did 80% of my HP in one hit.

My most recent notable stupid death happened to a low-level HDBe who
found artifact plate mail and died trying it on. The message was
"forgot to breathe". I guess that means the armor had an intelligence
penalty and he died of stupidity.

> I'm one who got bored of angband, not because i find the game boring,
> but because once you learn enough about it, it's fairly easy to win
on
> nearly every game.

Hmm, maybe I should give Angband another try. I never got into it. It
would be nice to win a roguelike. All the roguelikes I've played so far
were a pain to learn how to play, except Diablo, so I'm usually not
that keen to start new ones. IVAN wasn't too bad, though.
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 6:47:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Now I'm leaving ghosts behind that simply kick my ass on the early
levels unless i'm exceptionally lucky. :( 

Back to tank characters in a vague attempt to get back down to the orc
caves.


Rich
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 7:28:55 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

ARGH!!!! Even easy monsters do the unexpected! OgFi gets the following:

You hit the gnoll, but do no damage
The gnoll is moderately wounded
The gnoll hits you with a flail
* * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
The gnoll hits you with a flail
You die...

What kind of nasty bastard flail was that? Double hit on me when I was
near full health just after killing another gnoll which was in front of
this one! Level 4 character, level 3 of the dungeon...

GRRRRR! I could have used that flail myself!


Rich
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 7:46:44 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Next saga, still going but goes to show my point about gnolls. MDFi
takes on 3 gnolls starting at CL1 on DL2 (small DL1 visible and can't
find any secret doors so forced to decend). Kills them easily with a +0
dwaft mace and ends up at CL3!

RNG giveth and the RNG taketh away I guess.


Rich
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 12:23:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

"RecRanger" <spamphobia@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I have no real difficulty with centaurs -- that is *now* anyway...
>But, after centaurs, there are ogres and orc warriors taking 15-25 hps
>in *one* round. OK, I can get past them -- only to face yaks, hyrda,
>etc. etc. etc. Then there is the poisoning issue. Don't have the
>resist? Then "screw you!" seems to be the message here. If you need to
>find more items, it becomes increasingly difficult because monster
>generation seems to be **slow** in Crawl. OOD monsters -- ran into
>ogre, centaur, orc priests/warriors on level *one*...

Diablo II wants you to win; this is a common property of games you pay
money for.

Nethack doesn't care whether you win or die.

SLASH'EM doesn't care, but is going to discharge belt-feed automatic
weapons in your general direction while blindfolded.

Angband wants you to die of boredom.

Crawl wants you dead, dead, DEAD.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.ht...
bounce. bounce. bounce. bounce bounce bounce bounce.
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 12:48:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:
> > The first time I picked up Crawl, I got so frustrated within a week
that
> > I rejected it in disgust and didn't come back to it for months, so
I
> > know where you're at.
>
> Me too. Is this a universal experience? :) 

I believe it might be.
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 12:55:42 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

smartwick@yahoo.com wrote:
>There's some disadvantage to bows
> in the late game, but I don't survive that long anyway-- mostly
they're
> to soften up incoming monsters and finish off fleeing ones, so I
don't
> mind that they don't do a ton of damage.

Really? I've not used many in Crawl; I've played hunters, but try to
save the ammo, but those centaurs bows really seem to hurt me.
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 2:06:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:
>
>> The first time I picked up Crawl, I got so frustrated within a week
>> that I rejected it in disgust and didn't come back to it for months,
>> so I know where you're at.
>
>
> Me too. Is this a universal experience? :) 

It's still too early for you to say that, you know -- the
coming-back-to-it part is missing. :-)

e.
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 2:06:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Erik Piper wrote:
> It's still too early for you to say that, you know -- the
> coming-back-to-it part is missing. :-)

No, it happened a couple weeks ago. I tried crawl before, ~1 year ago.
Starting one game and immediately getting these messages was the last
straw that time:

The Centaur fires an arrow!
Ouch, that really hurt!
You die...

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 2:11:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> RecRanger wrote:
>
>> I like Crawl, but the learning curve is harsh. Level 14 HDFi, spent
>> all day working on feeling pretty good, go downstairs: ambushed by 5
>> yaks - dead. Level 12 HuMonk - same situation - ambushed by killer
>> bees, no posion resist. Not fun.
>
>
> HDFi? Is there a FAQ for all these crawl acronyms? If not, could either
> someone write one and repost it weekly or everyone quit using them? :) 

Oh, now you've gone and done it, given me a chance to propagate myself
and spam this group again.

Try
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike...

shortened for your convenience at

http://tinyurl.com/8kdwv

Cheers,

Erik
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 2:11:50 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Erik Piper wrote:
> Try
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike...

So there is a FAQ. Reposting it so I can read it in a proper newsreader
would have been nicer than linking to a stale copy on a web based news
service though. :) 

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 4:50:54 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Dafty wrote:
> Now I'm leaving ghosts behind that simply kick my ass on the early
> levels unless i'm exceptionally lucky. :( 
>
> Back to tank characters in a vague attempt to get back down to the orc
> caves.

If you want to be evil, you can play tank characters and then follow up
with fire-using conjurers... tanks' ghosts are really cheap XP for a
conjurer. Just make sure not to be wearing items of fire resistance when
you die :-P

The opposite situation, on the other hand... well, let's just say your
first few tanks after a run of fire elementalists will have trouble
keeping their scrolls around for long. :-)

Erik
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 5:12:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Dafty wrote:
> ARGH!!!! Even easy monsters do the unexpected! OgFi gets the following:
>
> You hit the gnoll, but do no damage
> The gnoll is moderately wounded
> The gnoll hits you with a flail
> * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
> The gnoll hits you with a flail
> You die...
>
> What kind of nasty bastard flail was that? Double hit on me when I was
> near full health just after killing another gnoll which was in front of
> this one! Level 4 character, level 3 of the dungeon...
>
> GRRRRR! I could have used that flail myself!
>
>
> Rich

Weapons have base speeds, and your actual speed with the weapon will be
that speed minus (your_weapon_skill/2*10, rounded down). I like to think
of it as there being a "100%" (1:1) speed, and weapons speeds being x%
of that speed, then being gradually quickened as you get better with
your weapon skill.

(There's also a "basement" that's a mess of exceptions, but tends to be
roughly twice as fast as original speed.)

These weapon speeds also apply to monsters, although I've never
researched how exactly they are applied (I mean, it's not like each
monster carries around a full fledged skill sheet like the PC).

The Maces category contains some of the slowest weapons in the game,
although morningstars are still in the pretty-reasonable range if I
recall correctly offhand.

So what probably happened is you swung your own mace, were still slow
with it, spent 150% of a turn or whatever, and the gnoll spent 140% or
whatever. In other words, Murphy's Law.

Erik
May 18, 2005 6:23:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Dafty .-- .-. --- - . ---...

> You hit the gnoll, but do no damage
> The gnoll is moderately wounded
> The gnoll hits you with a flail
> * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
> The gnoll hits you with a flail
> You die...
>
> What kind of nasty bastard flail was that? Double hit on me when I was
> near full health just after killing another gnoll which was in front of
> this one! Level 4 character, level 3 of the dungeon...

Could be just a "flail of speed".

> GRRRRR! I could have used that flail myself!

Hah. :-)

--
Loonie
---------------------------------------
Respondit Pilatus quod scripsi scripsi.
http://www.crawl.webpark.pl
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 6:41:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:
>
>> Try
>> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike...
>
>
>
> So there is a FAQ. Reposting it so I can read it in a proper newsreader
> would have been nicer than linking to a stale copy on a web based news
> service though. :) 

You're welcome. ;-)

Erik
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 9:04:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

RecRanger wrote:

> I have no real difficulty with centaurs -- that is *now* anyway...

You don't? How do you keep them from starving? (SCNR)

> But, after centaurs, there are ogres and orc warriors taking 15-25 hps
> in *one* round. OK, I can get past them -- only to face yaks, hyrda,
> etc. etc. etc. Then there is the poisoning issue. Don't have the
> resist? Then "screw you!" seems to be the message here.

Naa, except for beehives there are not many sources of heavy poisoning
around, at least nothing you can't cure with a !oh. Those mini-hives
OTOH can be done with stair-dancing, and if you enter the Hive without
poison resist it's your fault anyway.

> If you need to
> find more items, it becomes increasingly difficult because monster
> generation seems to be **slow** in Crawl.

So dive.

> OOD monsters -- ran into
> ogre, centaur, orc priests/warriors on level *one*...

just to dive down the stairs and get blasted by Siggie :-) That's Crawl
at its best. Die and tell the tale.

Lars
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 9:04:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Lars Kecke wrote:
> You don't? How do you keep them from starving? (SCNR)

SCNR?

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 9:39:44 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Loonie wrote:
> Dafty .-- .-. --- - . ---...

>>What kind of nasty bastard flail was that? Double hit on me when I was
>>near full health just after killing another gnoll which was in front of
>>this one! Level 4 character, level 3 of the dungeon...
>
> Could be just a "flail of speed".

IIRTSC "Speed" can only appear on daggers, short swords, sabres,
falchions, long swords, scimitars, whips, halberds, glaives, scythes,
tridents, quarterstaves and non-blowgun launchers.

Speed is just calculated differently for monsters. IIRTSC gnolls have a
speed of 10, so your hit with an axe gave the gnoll 13 clockticks; an
attack with a flail needed 12 (the flail is speed 15, but for monsters
the speed modifier is (weapon_speed-10)/2, so every 10 of your turns the
gnoll gets one for free, even worse, while you hit the gnoll before that
one the gnoll accumulated 3 clockticks for each of your hits.

Lars
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 10:44:15 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

smartwick@yahoo.com wrote:

[Some stuff that leaves very very little to add]

[berserking as such -- what helps it, things to think about]

Consider this quote from Napoleon:

" A general-in-chief should ask himself frequently in the day, What
should I do if the enemy's army appeared now in my front, or on my
right, or on my left? If he have any difficulty in answering these
questions he is ill posted, and should seek to remedy it. "

Now replace Napoleon's what-if's with:

- What if I pass out after berserking? (The chance is ridiculously small
for a Troglodyte, but it still exists.)

- What if something appears unexpectedly while I'm slowed? And it's
pretty tough, too?

....and strive to have a survivable answer for them.

Otherwise, you are "ill-posted," (errr, whatever the hell THAT is) and
your berserker will die of it sooner or later.

BTW don't let all these macho types advising about berserkers confuse
you -- real berserkers are small, have horrible dietary habits, and
wield tiny blades and big rods. ;-)

(OK, THAT was obscure :-) -- the context is that my first and only YAVP
is with a Troglodyte of precisely that description.)

> You could even go for shields as
> well, but I've been avoiding them because a) it's an extra skill b) the
> axes, flails, and maces with the highest damage require two hands c)
> the ones with medium damage work a bit better with two hands d) shields
> are fairly rare, although randart shields do exist e) when you have low
> shield skill they get in your way a lot, just like wearing armor beyond
> your skill.

f) shields block another, slightly different option than the above, and
one that's also quite effective -- wielding a good hand-and-a-half
weapon and keeping your second hand free for punching, which is IIRC the
best element in the whole auxiliary unarmed attacks suite.

The devil's advocate opinion (I'm a Libra and stuff): if you're not
developing Evocations (say, because you're running a Minotaur, and these
are really slow at Evocations) and thus have no hope of getting a rod of
warding for Deflect Missiles, a shield will deflect missiles for you as
well. Plus, it's potentially an extra slot for a randart with, perhaps,
some really good resists or stat boosts.

It really depends on how lucky you think you are -- I'd go into it for
the randart slot, but not for the missile deflection -- an equally good
missile deflector is a well-aimed shot or blow to the enemy's head. ;-)

Erik
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 18, 2005 11:15:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

jasonnorthrup@yahoo.com wrote:
> smartwick@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>>There's some disadvantage to bows
>>in the late game, but I don't survive that long anyway-- mostly
>
> they're
>
>>to soften up incoming monsters and finish off fleeing ones, so I
>
> don't
>
>>mind that they don't do a ton of damage.
>
>
> Really? I've not used many in Crawl; I've played hunters, but try to
> save the ammo,

Actually if you really want to play clever, you should try to save ammo
for when you have plenty of XP, and go on to never underestimate the
power of the humble Throwing skill:

case MI_NEEDLE: chance = 6 + you.skills[SK_THROWING] / 6; break;
case MI_STONE: chance = 3 + you.skills[SK_THROWING] / 4; break;
case MI_DART: chance = 2 + you.skills[SK_THROWING] / 6; break;
case MI_ARROW: chance = 2 + you.skills[SK_THROWING] / 4; break;
case MI_BOLT: chance = 2 + you.skills[SK_THROWING] / 5; break;

[...]

if (item->base_type != OBJ_MISSILES || !one_chance_in(chance))
copy_item_to_grid( *item, x, y, 1 );

This is the heart of the code uses to decide whether or not your missile
survives being thrown.

Some sample cases:

You're throwing food rations at the enemy. Food ration's base type is
not that of a missile (item->base_type != OBJ_MISSILES), so they are
preserved (copy_item_to_grid( *item, x, y, 1 )).

You're shooting poisoned needles, and have a Throwing skill of 2. First
Crawl adds up: 6 + 2 / 6 and gets either 6.3 repeating or 6; somebody
with a better understanding of Crawl math can answer that one. ;-) Then
it says "Yep, it's a missile", and more to the "or" condition (that's
what || means): if a check for "one chance in 6" (or one chance in 6.3
repeating... HMMM...) fails, the needle reappears on the floor.

You're firing a bow, and have a Throwing skill of 20. Crawl adds up: 2 +
20/4 and gets 7. So if a check for 1 chance in 7 fails, your arrow
reappears on the floor (unless if was flame/frost of course; that's
handled elsewhere).

Some simple general observations from the above:
- With some launchers, Throwing skill is much more important for missile
preservation than for others, because it's not divided as much before
it's factored in. (The numbers on the far right above.)

- Some launchers let even "beginners" keep their ammo pleasantly often;
others demand good throwing skill before you stop seeing your ammo
supplies hemmhorage. (The numbers on the far left above.)

- With some (e.g. darts), you kinda just can't win -- you're always
gonna be going through them pretty quickly, because the beginner bonus
is small and the divisor for Throwing large.

- The better your missile preservation is already, the harder it is to
make it "more better" -- 1/2 to 1/3 chance of ammo loss is a much bigger
jump than 1/3 to 1/4, and so on.

> but those centaurs bows really seem to hurt me.

I think it's mostly due to how low PC hitpoints tend to be in the period
where Centaurs are most noticeable. When they show up in the Vaults, I
just laugh.

Erik
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 19, 2005 12:42:52 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Jason, a pretty good example of the relatively low damage done by bows
just happened. My 16 level MiBe with bow skill 13 and wielding +0 bow
hits a hill giant 4 times as it closes in. By the time it reaches him
the hill giant is moderately wounded. The mino switches to a battleaxe
of chopping and attacks, getting bonus damage (You slash the hill
giant!) and then getting an unarmed attack (You headbutt the hill
giant!), killing it. The bow is handy and does respectable damage--
because of it, the giant only got one attack-- but the mino's melee
attack is a lot stronger. Granted, axe skill was four points higher.

I don't know why centaurs and yaktaurs have such good missile attacks.
I've read here that other aspects of combat (weapon speed, for
instance) are calculated differently for monsters and player characters
and maybe this is another instance. Possibly centaur player characters
rock with bows too. I don't know, I haven't tried. How did hunters go
for you?

The trick with dealing with centaurs*, of course, is not to charge them
or hang around engaging in melee with another enemy where the centaur
can take pot shots, but to retreat around a corner or through a
doorway. Once the centaur is close in you melee it. If you do it right,
it'll be two steps away when it gets you in line-of-sight, thus only
getting one missile shot while you step up to attack. The real danger
with centaurs and other missile types in my experience is if you're
dumb enough-- like I sometimes am-- to get caught in the open by
several of them. You're not the first one to mention trouble with
centaurs so I figured I'd write this up.

*Talking melee types here, of course. And if the corner or doorway is
some distance away and the centaur somehow got close to you, charge. It
will do more damage to you while you retreat.

Quoting Erik quoting Napoleon:

" A general-in-chief should ask himself frequently in the day, What
should I do if the enemy's army appeared now in my front, or on my
right, or on my left? If he have any difficulty in answering these
questions he is ill posted, and should seek to remedy it. "

As I said, overconfidence is the number one killer of my berserkers.
Stupidity-- which sometimes hard to distinguish from overconfidence--
is probably number two. While I don't recall ever losing a character
because they passed out after berserking, berserking stupidly has
killed a whole lot. For example, the time I went berserk while wielding
a bow. Or the many times I kept advancing when I knew the rage would
soon end and the enemy appeared in my front, or on my right, or on my
left, or maybe all three, and my character slowed. Or the
too-fricking-many times I went berserk while wearing my amulet of the
gourmand rather than my amulet of resist slowing. Even when berserk,
caution is advised, maybe even more than usual, because, just as you
say, Erik, those what-ifs need to be considered. However, berserk is a
great ability. You just have to be prepared for it and not get carried
away.

While I hear what you're saying about randart shields, I just haven't
seen any yet. I tend to rely a lot on randarts with MiBes for
resistances and abilities like see invisible. But because of the rarity
of randart shields, this actually turns out to be an argument against
training shields. My big source of artifacts is Trog, and he only
grants weapons. Since a sizable proportion of these are two handed, I'm
more likely to get, say, poison resistance from a weapon that requires
I go shieldless than from a shield. A neat point about unarmed combat
and shields, though, and one I didn't realize. Sometimes I am tempted
to use a shield when weilding a one-handed weapon just because I can.
Now I can look at it as a chance to get in an unarmed attack, and minos
are good with those. While it would be great to have a randart one
handed weapon with complimenting randart shield, I'm just not that
lucky. Or maybe I just don't get far enough.

About your idea that the best berserkers are kobalds, well, yeah, for
you. I'm still new and IMO newbies are going to find MiBes easier.
Plus, as you once said, once you make the switch to a magic type, those
tank phantoms are easy experience. When are you going to add to the
story of b, by the way? I'm looking forward to it.
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 19, 2005 1:06:36 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Dafty wrote:
> Oddly enough my next game... (OK I didn't really want to give up just
> yet :) 

First signs of an ever lasting hate love. ;-)

> Oh well lives and learns. :)  Expecting death is the way forward it
> seems.

Welcome to the club of zombies (*all* Crawl players have died just way
too often). *g*

> I'm one who got bored of angband, not because i find the game boring,
> but because once you learn enough about it, it's fairly easy to win on
> nearly every game.

So you're at home now: I can't recall anyone *ever* complaining about
Crawl being too easy. Have fun!

Btw, did you ever tried Oangband? IMO the best of all *bands (though
still cake compared to Crawl).

Rubinstein
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 19, 2005 5:36:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Rubinstein wrote:
> Btw, did you ever tried Oangband? IMO the best of all *bands

Not specificially but I think I played a few using Oangband based
combat. Beat angband, early zangbands, Pern when it was Pern, NPP,
Gumband and probably one or two others played but not won :) 


Rich
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 19, 2005 11:23:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

> > getting one missile shot while you step up to attack. The real
danger
> > with centaurs and other missile types in my experience is if you're
> > dumb enough-- like I sometimes am-- to get caught in the open by
> > several of them.
>
> Berserking is a tremendous help in such situations--due to the
hasting,
> they hardly get *time* to hurt you. The tricky part with this is to

Once I managed to get stuck in a crossfire during one of my
forgot-to-switch-amulets fiascos combined with my patented
advanced-too-far-while-berserk stunt. YASD, natch.

> Given any other useful amulet in my inventory, I make it a habit to
> never, ever wear my amulet of the gourmand for anything except
> eating--that is, I make switching back out of it a reflex, and keep
my
> "real" amulet on R and the AotG on P, so the switch is a nice RR PP
> munch munch RP PR -- from the psychological standpoint this makes it
> easier to keep the reflex as a reflex, because you're not repulsed by
it
> as "a chore".

Well, I try to do the same, of course. I just get distracted and
forget. I tried the PR trick, but decided I like Pp better, although I
can't put my finger on why, exactly. Easier for me to remember, I
guess.

>[The joy of the berserkergang and why dwarves like shields]

Been meaning to try HDBes again. Any thoughts on the other options?

> *you*, I'd recommend you try green eggs and ham -- that you take a
look

Well, I'm certainly suggestible. After only two tries, I may have a
viable kobald assassin. Only clvl 8, so normally I wouldn't mention it,
but I have a question. When you were going for bevokers, did you ever
find an amulet of berserk rage early on? My new boy has and I was
thinking of maybe trying the other fighter god... er, I don't know his
name. I thought it might be a good idea (although I'd have to forgo an
AoRS, unfortunately) because later on I could pick up spellcasting. A
book of War Chants would be terrific.

I've enjoyed your posts as well, Erik. A couple of chatterboxes, ain't
we.
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 19, 2005 12:54:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Started another thread about kobold assassins.
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 19, 2005 3:04:24 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

smartwick@yahoo.com wrote:

Incidentally, Dave -- It's always a lot of fun reading your replies, and
they've brought a lot of insights.

(And don't worry that I'm calling you by name -- I'm not angry ;-) )

> The trick with dealing with centaurs*, of course, is not to charge them
> or hang around engaging in melee with another enemy where the centaur
> can take pot shots, but to retreat around a corner or through a
> doorway. Once the centaur is close in you melee it. If you do it right,
> it'll be two steps away when it gets you in line-of-sight, thus only
> getting one missile shot while you step up to attack. The real danger
> with centaurs and other missile types in my experience is if you're
> dumb enough-- like I sometimes am-- to get caught in the open by
> several of them.

Berserking is a tremendous help in such situations--due to the hasting,
they hardly get *time* to hurt you. The tricky part with this is to
balance the need to minimize the initial moves spent non-berserk (and
thus not boosted) with the need to minimize the initial moves spent
berserk-but-not-yet-fighting (and thus rapidly losing yer "berserk
points"). All in all being already at melee range to at least 1 monster,
preferably one of the archers themselves, when you flip your wig seems
IME to be a better response, but it can be really scary getting there,
and sometimes you have to compromise.

Make sure that, given a choice of several positions with the same amount
of moves until first contact, you choose the one that brings you into
melee range with multiple archers at once if one's available.

When feasible, use other enemy monsters to block ranged attackers' line
of fire. E.g. given this situation:

..r....c
@......

....reposition yourself up one space and wait for the centaur to close.

Like Dave's advice, all this is mostly intended for melee specialist
characters.

> Quoting Erik quoting Napoleon:
>
> " A general-in-chief should ask himself frequently in the day, What
> should I do if the enemy's army appeared now in my front, or on my
> right, or on my left? If he have any difficulty in answering these
> questions he is ill posted, and should seek to remedy it. "
>
> As I said, overconfidence is the number one killer of my berserkers.
> Stupidity-- which sometimes hard to distinguish from overconfidence--
> is probably number two. While I don't recall ever losing a character
> because they passed out after berserking, berserking stupidly has
> killed a whole lot. For example, the time I went berserk while wielding
> a bow.

Softening the blow of this error type is one of the secret advantages of
specializing in Maces and Flails. :-P

> Or the many times I kept advancing when I knew the rage would
> soon end and the enemy appeared in my front, or on my right, or on my
> left, or maybe all three, and my character slowed. Or the
> too-fricking-many times I went berserk while wearing my amulet of the
> gourmand rather than my amulet of resist slowing.

Given any other useful amulet in my inventory, I make it a habit to
never, ever wear my amulet of the gourmand for anything except
eating--that is, I make switching back out of it a reflex, and keep my
"real" amulet on R and the AotG on P, so the switch is a nice RR PP
munch munch RP PR -- from the psychological standpoint this makes it
easier to keep the reflex as a reflex, because you're not repulsed by it
as "a chore".

> Even when berserk,
> caution is advised, maybe even more than usual, because, just as you
> say, Erik, those what-ifs need to be considered. However, berserk is a
> great ability.

It also happens to be a lot of fun. But more to the point, most of my
best characters -- including 3 of the 4 who have reached Zot, and the 1
winner -- have been either Troglodytes or Crusaders. That may say more
about my preferences than Berserk, but it just may mean that Berserk
Rage roxxorz.

> You just have to be prepared for it and not get carried away.

Well, Berserk Rage is all *about* getting carried away, so... :-)

> While I hear what you're saying about randart shields, I just haven't
> seen any yet.

They're out there.

> I tend to rely a lot on randarts with MiBes for
> resistances and abilities like see invisible.

With a minotaur, I'd probably go for a punching arm too. Shields are
more for folks like Dwarves:

Race Shields Unarmed Racial Unarmed Attack?
HD 70 100 N
MD 70 100 N
Mi 80 80 Y

:-)

> About your idea that the best berserkers are kobalds, well, yeah, for
> you.

Well, it was in jest. But there is a bit of truth behind every jest.

> I'm still new and IMO newbies are going to find MiBes easier.

You're getting gradually less new. I don't know about the fellow we're
playing wise guy to (I've even lost track of who it is :-P), but for
*you*, I'd recommend you try green eggs and ham -- that you take a look
at just how powerful an "extra invisible neck and a free AotG welded to
it" can be for a Troglodyte. Incidentally, the boost to short blades
from berserk's strength boost is more than you'd expect; I suspect
Brent's words on the relative unimportance of str/dex weighting that
Ruby quoted are truer than we all often believe.

> Plus, as you once said, once you make the switch to a magic type, those
> tank phantoms are easy experience.

Fighter kobolds are just another "tank ghost", except for one thing:
they're usually wielding ego weapons (lots of ego short blades in the
late opening, and the late opening is the heart of ghostland), so you do
need to be a *bit* careful lest you get drained/poisoned/burned/whatever
into oblivion.

> When are you going to add to the story of b, by the way? I'm looking forward to it.

Thanks for the encouragement. I've been having a rocking time with my
current reaverlike, and thus have been having trouble breaking away from
him, but it would take so little extra play at this point to post
installment 2 that, yeah I think I can find the willpower.

Erik
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 19, 2005 3:04:25 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Erik Piper wrote:
> Race Shields Unarmed Racial Unarmed Attack?
> HD 70 100 N
> MD 70 100 N
> Mi 80 80 Y

I thought you of all people would know better than to use a proportional
font for Usenet? :) 

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 19, 2005 3:24:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

smartwick@yahoo.com wrote:
> I've enjoyed your posts as well, Erik. A couple of chatterboxes, ain't
> we.

This is Usenet. Chatterboxes are commonplace here. More so if you count
posts rather than distinct 'nyms.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 19, 2005 10:49:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:
>
>> Race Shields Unarmed Racial Unarmed Attack?
>> HD 70 100 N
>> MD 70 100 N
>> Mi 80 80 Y
>
>
> I thought you of all people would know better than to use a proportional
> font for Usenet? :) 

The funny part is, I didn't. Thunderbird probably processes tabs and
spaces in a way different than what I hoped. Plus I just plum forgot to
remove the third column that the fourth one was supposed to replace.

Erik
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 19, 2005 10:49:37 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Erik Piper wrote:
> The funny part is, I didn't. Thunderbird probably processes tabs and
> spaces in a way different than what I hoped. Plus I just plum forgot to
> remove the third column that the fourth one was supposed to replace.

Don't use tabs -- they aren't always going to expand the same in
different viewers. Use just spaces.

What's the corrected table?

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
a b α HP
May 20, 2005 2:11:25 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Erik Piper wrote:
>
>> The funny part is, I didn't. Thunderbird probably processes tabs and
>> spaces in a way different than what I hoped. Plus I just plum forgot
>> to remove the third column that the fourth one was supposed to replace.
>
>
> Don't use tabs -- they aren't always going to expand the same in
> different viewers. Use just spaces.
>
> What's the corrected table?
>
Awww, just forget it. I'm too punchdrunk today to draw a decent table.
Or let's just say:

Dwarves good shields! mediocre unarmed! no headbutt!
Mino's good shields, also good unarmed, yes headbutt!
You be judge!

Erik
!