YAVP - UplnePav the Elf Hunter

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Not in the mood to do a full writeup yet; here's the dump.

"Jsem z toho úplnÄ› paf" means "I'm totally flabbergasted by it."

"ÚplnÄ› pav" means "totally peacock."

"ÚplnÄ› Pav" means "totally Pav."

Pav LuÄ?ištník is the pen name of the maintainer of the Angband Ladder.

"Pav LuÄ?ištník" means "Peacock Bowman".

Enjoy.

Dungeon Crawl 400b26e069tf(Windows/Tile) character file.
[Last build Mar 13 2005]


UplnePav the Merry Elf

Race : Elf Res.Fire : + + . See Invis. : .
Class : Hunter Res.Cold : + + + Warding : .
Worship : Sif Muna Life Prot.: . . . Conserve : .
Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : .
Level 27 Res.Elec. : + Gourmand : .
Exp 3484573
Next Level ******* Sust.Abil.: . Rnd.Telep. : .
Exp Needed ******* Res.Mut. : + Ctrl.Telep.: .
Spls.Left 2 Res.Slow : . Levitation : +
Gold 3608 Clarity : . Ctrl.Flight: +

HP : 32/222
MP : 47/ 47 Weapon +9,+8 elven bow of protection
Str : 29 Armour +7 robe of resistance
Int : 20 Shield none
Dex : 18 Helmet +2 helmet "Mnan Kia"
Armour Cl: 26 Cloak +3 cloak "Jigyfo"
Evasion : 21 Gloves +2 pair of gloves of strength
Shield Cl: 0 Boots +2 pair of boots of running
Amulet amulet of resist mutation
Play time : 2 days, 12:32:14Ring +5,+2 ring of slaying
Turns : 333303 Ring ring of Wonder


You escaped.
You worship Sif Muna.
Sif Muna is exalted by your worship.
You are encumbered.
You are full.


Inventory:
Hand weapons
a - a +8,+9 elven long sword of speed (2982 gold)
+b - a +9,+8 elven bow of protection (weapon) (1210 gold)
v - the +6,+5 great sword "Epefech Qiv" (2949 gold)
A truly terrible weapon, it drains the life of those it strikes.
It affects your strength (+2).
T - the -3,-5 katana of the Inferno (327 gold)
It protects you from magic.
It enhances your eyesight.
U - the +6,+3 bow "Jirubshttghpra" (379 gold)
It insulates you from electricity.
It glows with mutagenic radiation.
Z - a +8,+5 great sword of holy wrath (2730 gold)
Missiles
V - 135 +0 arrows (270 gold)

// I gotta do something about this horrible *ammo shortage* in Crawl!
It's *awful*! ;-)

Armour
+h - a +2 pair of boots of running (worn) (245 gold)
+i - the +2 helmet "Mnan Kia" (worn) (400 gold)
It affects your intelligence (+4).
+j - a +2 pair of gloves of strength (worn) (201 gold)
+k - the +3 cloak "Jigyfo" (worn) (602 gold)
It affects your strength (+2).
It affects your dexterity (+1).
It greatly protects you from cold.
+l - a +7 robe of resistance (worn) (996 gold)
B - the +1 wizard's hat of Filth (280 gold)
It affects your dexterity (+3).
G - a +2 pair of gloves of dexterity (201 gold)
H - a +4 elven chain mail of fire resistance (1354 gold)
Magical devices
d - a wand of cold (13) (162 gold)
g - a wand of hasting (18) (207 gold)
m - a wand of lightning (10) (210 gold)
s - a wand of fire (6) (99 gold)
z - a wand of healing (5) (66 gold)
Jewellery
n - a ring of ice (434 gold)
p - the ring "Uvyhenu" (630 gold)
This ring increases its wearer's reserves of magical power.
It greatly protects you from cold.
It protects you from poison.
q - a ring of sustenance (175 gold)
+r - a +5,+2 ring of slaying (right hand) (910 gold)
y - an amulet of the gourmand (245 gold)
+A - the ring of Wonder (left hand) (511 gold)
This ring increases or decreases the physical strength of its
wearer, to a
degree dependent on its power.
It affects your strength (+4).
It affects your dexterity (-1).
It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+3).
It protects you from fire.
F - the ring "Dilosev D Di" (567 gold)
This ring brings its wearer more in contact with the powers of fire.
He or
she gains resistance to heat and can use fire magic more
effectively, but
becomes more vulnerable to the effects of cold.
It affects your AC (+3).
+P - an amulet of resist mutation (around neck) (210 gold)
R - an amulet of resist slowing (210 gold)
S - a ring of teleport control (294 gold)
X - a +0,+5 ring of slaying (210 gold)
Y - the ring of the Gate (420 gold)
This ring allows its wearer to see those things hidden from view by
magic.
It affects your evasion (+5).
It enhances your eyesight.
It lets you teleport.
Potions
W - 3 potions of cure mutation (450 gold)
Magical staves
c - a rod of summoning (250 gold)
f - a staff of earth (250 gold)
O - a rod of destruction (250 gold)
Q - a staff of enchantment (250 gold)
Orbs of Power
J - the Orb of Zot (250000 gold)
Miscellaneous
e - an icy rune of Zot (10000 gold)
o - a fiery rune of Zot (10000 gold)
t - a dark rune of Zot (10000 gold)
u - 9 demonic runes of Zot (90000 gold)
w - a magical rune of Zot (10000 gold)
x - a glowing rune of Zot (10000 gold)
C - a golden rune of Zot (10000 gold)
D - a serpentine rune of Zot (10000 gold)
E - a decaying rune of Zot (10000 gold)
I - an abyssal rune of Zot (10000 gold)

//YIPPEE!!

K - a silver rune of Zot (10000 gold)
L - a bone rune of Zot (10000 gold)
M - an iron rune of Zot (10000 gold)
N - an obsidian rune of Zot (10000 gold)


You have 78 experience left.

Skills:
+ Level 21 Fighting
- Level 1 Short Blades
* Level 27 Long Blades
- Level 1 Maces & Flails
* Level 27 Bows
* Level 27 Throwing
+ Level 23 Dodging
+ Level 15 Stealth
+ Level 3 Stabbing
+ Level 12 Traps & Doors
+ Level 15 Unarmed Combat
+ Level 22 Spellcasting
+ Level 17 Conjurations
+ Level 18 Enchantments
+ Level 5 Necromancy
+ Level 15 Translocations
+ Level 2 Transmigration
+ Level 11 Divinations
+ Level 3 Fire Magic
+ Level 6 Ice Magic
+ Level 15 Air Magic
+ Level 6 Earth Magic
- Level 2 Poison Magic
+ Level 20 Evocations


You have 2 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

Your Spells Type Success Level
a - Controlled Blink Translocation Excellent 4
b - Stone Arrow Earth/Conjuration Excellent 3
c - Swiftness Air/Enchantment Perfect 2
d - Ozocubu's Armour Ice/Enchantment Excellent 3
e - Regeneration Enchantment/Necromancy Excellent 3
f - Bolt of Iron Earth/Conjuration Great 6
g - Forescry Divination Great 5
h - Haste Enchantment Excellent 6
i - Berserker Rage Enchantment Perfect 3
j - Apportation Translocation Perfect 1
k - Fly Air/Enchantment Excellent 4
l - Deflect Missiles Air/Enchantment Excellent 6
m - Tomb of Doroklohe Earth/Conjuration Good 7
n - Paralyze Enchantment Perfect 4
o - Dig Earth/Transmigration Very Good 4
p - Detect Creatures Divination Excellent 2
q - Detect Curse Divination Excellent 3
r - Detect Traps Divination Excellent 2


Mutations & Other Weirdness
You are immune to electric shocks.
You have a fast metabolism.


Last messages:
> You are currently targeting the Pit Fiend (use p/t to fire).
> Aim (move cursor or -/+/=, change mode with CTRL-F, select with . or >)
> You are currently targeting the Pit Fiend (use p/t to fire).
> A Pit Fiend.
> The Pit Fiend is moderately wounded.
> Floor.
> You shoot an arrow.
> The arrow hits the Pit Fiend.
> The Pit Fiend is moderately wounded.
> You are being weighed down by all of your possessions.
> The Pit Fiend calls on the powers of Hell!
> Your body is wracked with pain!
> The Pit Fiend makes a gesture!
> The hellfire explodes!
> The hellfire engulfs you!
> * * * LOW HITPOINT WARNING * * *
> The hellfire engulfs the Pit Fiend.
> The Pit Fiend appears unharmed.
> Are you sure you want to leave the Dungeon?[Y/N]
> You have escaped!



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####.#.##................
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#####.#.# #.#.#.####


Vanquished Creatures
Cerebov (Pan)
Mnoleg (Pan)
Rib Lopryxiheh (Pan)
Antaeus (Coc:7)
Asmodeus (Geh:7)
Ereshkigal (Tar:7)
3 orbs of fire
Unosuxtu (Pan)
A Serpent of Hell (Geh:7)
Voruxel (Pan)
Robyr C Pn (Pan)
5 ancient liches
Teluhygynog (Pan)
Opyp Ku (Pan)
Jut Wyvutejutu (Pan)
Egovevohik (Pan)
Idydif Gy (Pan)
Luxuviv (Pan)
Totudekuhen (Pan)
Lom Lobon (Pan)
Yxuferyj Sy (Pan)
Etuh Vo (Pan)
Elynihy (Pan)
A royal jelly (Slime:6)
A royal jelly (shapeshifter) (Vault:7)
Oluronejoti (Pan)
17 greater mummies
Ofojusyry (Pan)
Ycob Ny (Pan)
Yhyryxehagi (Pan)
Unufyjusyqoxu (Pan)
Geryon (Hell)
Idivomoklybu (Pan)
Dispater (Dis:7)
Gloorx Vloq (Pan)
A Killer Klown (Zot:5)
A Killer Klown (shapeshifter) (Vault:8)
Margery (Crypt:1)
Ede (Pan)
Meh Mekiquhu (Pan)
Egot (Pan)
Cyde (Pan)
Lyxubilubi (Pan)
Yf Bubysov My (Pan)
Kir Fromna (Pan)
Fuguseliky (Pan)
Xtahua (Snake:5)
Fedux (Pan)
3 electric golems
Ov Lifog (Pan)
Duliqavecivy (Pan)
Obibixticl Gic (Pan)
Husypitikohusy (Pan)
Ilyvipy (Pan)
Eb Rixte (Pan)
W Nivufiwes Tu (Pan)
Ydefekomnyk (Pan)
H Siwebubes Pu (Pan)
Norris (D:22)
Ysivunesilek (Pan)
Quh Frmn (Pan)
6 golden dragons
3 quicksilver dragons (shapeshifter) (Vault:8)
19 acid blobs
Op Nebmn (Pan)
Yryfulury (Pan)
Eqenojenudyti (Pan)
A curse skull (Crypt:3)
10 shadow dragons
62 Fiends
A titan (shapeshifter) (Vault:8)
2 acid blobs (shapeshifter)
Duane (Blade)
Itorumi (Pan)
21 Orb Guardians (Zot:5)
Inedaje (Pan)
Decuryjy (Pan)
Rupert (D:22)
A sphinx (shapeshifter) (Vault:8)
7 sphinxes
9 liches
15 storm dragons
L Cifoq (Pan)
Wayne (Crypt:3)
101 Balrugs
56 Shadow Fiends
Oqir C Legirym (Pan)
53 Ice Fiends
Frances (Vault:2)
2 frost giants
Francis (Crypt:5)
14 skeletal dragons
48 Executioners
Byjimeh (Pan)
An iron dragon (Vault:8)
21 tentacled monstrosities
11 fire giants
7 azure jellies
An azure jelly (shapeshifter) (Vault:3)
50 stone giants
A stone giant (shapeshifter) (Vault:7)
A fire giant (shapeshifter) (Vault:1)
52 Pit Fiends
48 Green Deaths
The ghost of uplnePav the Archer, a powerful El Hu (Snake:5)
14 deep elf annihilators
13 deep elf death mages
57 Blue Deaths
6 greater nagas
8 deep elf sorcerers
The ghost of C0mpr0mise the Slinger, a powerful Mi CK (Lair:4)
A minotaur (Lab)
A vampire knight (Crypt:3)
30 Cacodemons
3 great orbs of eyes
A great orb of eyes (shapeshifter) (Vault:1)
57 yaktaur captains
16 dragons
A minotaur (shapeshifter) (D:23)
31 mummy priests
A death ooze (Slime:5)
24 vault guards
A dragon (shapeshifter) (Vault:7)
3 death yaks (Lair:10)
7 titan skeletons
13 ice dragons
8 death cobs
Norbert (D:17)
32 hydras
2 hydras (shapeshifter)
10 hell-hogs
9 rakshasas
A rakshasa (shapeshifter) (D:23)
5 grey snakes
12 ogre-mages
Erica (Swamp:1)
A grey snake (shapeshifter) (Vault:8)
15 deep elf demonologists
Josephine (D:19)
8 deep elf high priests
2 golden dragon skeletons
4 griffons
65 deep trolls
2 orc high priests
11 shadow dragon skeletons
12 sun demons
21 naga warriors
2 elephant slugs
32 centaur warriors
The ghost of b the Thaumaturge, a powerful DE Cj (Orc:4)
2 iron golems (Abyss)
The ghost of UplnePav the Yeoman, an experienced El Hu (Lair:1)
28 soul eaters
8 iron trolls
15 giant amoebae
3 giant amoebae (shapeshifter)
19 ice devils
12 giant orange brains
41 deep elf knights
3 shadow wraiths
51 dancing weapons
195 skeletal warriors
18 stone giant skeletons
5 iron troll skeletons
A fire giant skeleton (Vault:7)
5 frost giant skeletons
An elf (Lair:1)
12 unseen horrors
30 orc knights
2 hill giants (shapeshifter)
23 hell knights
17 flayed ghosts
15 hill giants
13 necromancers
8 swamp dragons
11 wizards
4 guardian nagas (Abyss)
2 crystal golems
A vampire mage (Crypt:2)
40 hellions
A red wasp (D:24)
A swamp dragon (shapeshifter) (D:20)
Erolcha (D:14)
A moth of wrath (shapeshifter) (Elf:4)
7 spiny worms
4 storm dragon skeletons
3 death yak skeletons
13 spectral warriors
A shining eye (shapeshifter) (Elf:7)
40 black snakes
9 orc sorcerers
A pile of gold coins (D:14)
10 Lorocyprocas (Pan)
35 moths of wrath
2 black snakes (shapeshifter)
A golden dragon simulacrum (Pan)
2 oklob plants
43 reapers
A titan zombie (Geh:7)
An elephant slug zombie (Geh:7)
A minotaur skeleton (Abyss)
7 queen ant skeletons
2 eyes of devastation (shapeshifter)
17 rock trolls
7 mimics
4 shining eyes
190 slime creatures
11 very ugly things
3 wolf spiders
125 yaktaurs
Urug (Elf:2)
A queen ant (shapeshifter) (D:27)
5 eyes of devastation
259 smoke demons
Michael (Swamp:1)
24 naga mages
212 hellwings
114 guardian mummies
3 dragon skeletons
11 ice dragon skeletons
2 very ugly thing skeletons
2 griffon skeletons
16 spiny worm skeletons
2 slime creatures (shapeshifter)
A rock troll (shapeshifter) (D:23)
38 giant brown frogs
10 cyclopes
9 efreets
52 tormentors
A golden dragon zombie (D:21)
162 ugly things
13 giant snails
A queen bee (Hive:4)
5 komodo dragons
5 rock troll skeletons
16 shadow dragon zombies
20 grey snake skeletons
5 hill giant skeletons
A redback (Vault:6)
A wandering mushroom (D:15)
A troll (shapeshifter) (Vault:3)
A brown ooze (shapeshifter) (Vault:8)
13 trolls
14 spiny frogs
33 blink frogs
An ettin (shapeshifter) (Vault:8)
A grizzly bear (Lair:8)
5 stone giant zombies
3 fire giant zombies
4 frost giant zombies
6 spatial vortices
2 yaks (shapeshifter)
5 giant goldfish
131 ynoxinuls
15 hippogriffs
A polar bear (Lair:8)
A two-headed ogre (shapeshifter) (D:25)
An elf skeleton (Geh:7)
5 deep troll skeletons
24 demonic crawlers (Pan)
26 two-headed ogres
14 brown oozes
13 hungry ghosts
31 blue devils
10 giant slugs
A hog (shapeshifter) (D:16)
39 yaks
20 deep elf summoners
14 shadow demons
25 deep elf conjurers
17 vampires
3 clay golems
A fire elemental (Abyss)
10 yellow snakes
43 deep elf fighters
22 giant blowflies
An air elemental (Abyss)
4 storm dragon zombies
3 death yak zombies
2 manticore skeletons
4 cyclops skeletons
2 lindwurm skeletons
2 swamp dragon skeletons
251 neqoxecs
46 wraiths
3 wood golems
3 firedrakes
4 spiny worm simulacra
A soldier ant (D:14)
4 manticores
A manticore (shapeshifter) (Vault:7)
A water elemental (Zot:1)
31 freezing wraiths
89 insubstantial wisps
146 large abominations
26 hairy devils
Edmund (D:8)
70 iron devils
225 orange demons
A minotaur zombie (Crypt:2)
3 queen ant zombies
16 metal gargoyles
A wyvern (shapeshifter) (Vault:6)
A lava worm (D:15)
22 swamp worms
40 ugly thing skeletons
2 guardian naga skeletons
5 wyverns
2 wolf spider skeletons
A hill giant simulacrum (Pan)
A giant brown frog skeleton (Crypt:2)
115 hell hounds
3 mottled dragons
13 deep elf priests
15 molten gargoyles (Geh:7)
67 red devils
10 ice beasts
A black bear (Lair:4)
59 ogres
A dragon zombie (D:27)
20 ice dragon zombies
5 very ugly thing zombies
2 griffon zombies
10 spiny worm zombies
2 elf zombies
14 beasts
5 big kobolds
34 centaurs
An ogre (shapeshifter) (D:18)
21 phantoms
A gila monster (shapeshifter) (D:17)
7 yellow wasps
A boring beetle (shapeshifter) (Vault:7)
47 necrophages
21 rotting devils
5 rock troll zombies
14 war dogs
120 nagas
A naga (shapeshifter) (D:26)
13 grey snake zombies
5 hill giant zombies
A queen bee skeleton (Tar:7)
2 troll skeletons
3 yak skeletons
2 hippogriff skeletons
2 bumblebee skeletons
A spiny frog skeleton (Geh:7)
4 gila monsters
17 giant lizards
3 boring beetles
30 giant frogs
The ghost of UplnePav the Shooter, an average El Hu (D:4)
10 wargs
10 brain worms
55 brown snakes
Sigmund (D:5)
Blork the orc (D:8)
13 swamp drakes
18 human zombies
A deep troll zombie (Abyss)
55 orc warriors
7 boulder beetles
A gargoyle (Vault:1)
2 two-headed ogre skeletons
4 redback skeletons
2 hog skeletons
2 soldier ant skeletons
A blink frog skeleton (D:16)
30 deep elf mages
11 eyes of draining
47 earth elementals
8 big fish
2 ugly thing simulacra
2 lava fish
2 manticore zombies
2 cyclops zombies
4 boulder beetle zombies
2 lindwurm zombies
2 swamp dragon zombies
3 ghouls
198 killer bees
172 imps
A pulsating lump (shapeshifter) (Elf:1)
6 jellyfish
6 ugly thing zombies
2 giant beetle skeletons
4 ogre skeletons
2 wyvern skeletons
2 wolf spider zombies
A brain worm skeleton (Crypt:4)
A hippogriff simulacrum (Tomb:3)
2 mottled dragon skeletons
A giant lizard skeleton (Tar:7)
A pulsating lump (Pan)
A naga skeleton (Tar:1)
A giant brown frog zombie (Crypt:5)
12 giant ants
32 wights
5 giant beetles
25 orc priests
12 hounds
57 orc wizards
59 deep elf soldiers
33 lava snakes
An elf (shapeshifter) (Vault:8)
10 orange rats
6 scorpions
2 queen bee zombies
A troll zombie (Geh:7)
A yak zombie (Geh:7)
A hippogriff zombie (Geh:3)
5 bumblebee zombies
2 black snake zombies
27 electrical eels
187 small abominations
72 shadows
21 sheep
22 giant iguanas
A steam dragon skeleton (Crypt:1)
4 human skeletons
3 brown snake skeletons
A war dog skeleton (Geh:1)
A swamp drake skeleton (Tar:7)
2 giant frog skeletons
Ijyb (D:7)
3 redback zombies
2 yellow snake zombies
3 soldier ant zombies
2 blink frog zombies (Tar:7)
10 boggarts
15 jellies
An ogre simulacrum (Crypt:3)
8 worms
2 worm zombies (Dis:6)
A giant beetle zombie (Geh:1)
3 ogre zombies
A wyvern zombie (Tar:7)
A big kobold zombie (D:12)
2 brain worm zombies
117 flying skulls
6 gnolls
A mottled dragon zombie (Tomb:1)
A giant lizard zombie (Tar:7)
3 naga zombies
218 midges
A giant ant skeleton (Geh:7)
3 killer bee skeletons
52 green rats
An orange rat skeleton (Geh:7)
A sheep skeleton (Geh:7)
294 lemures
70 shadow imps
72 snakes
4 giant mites
239 manes
8 giant centipedes
79 mummies
281 white imps
A steam dragon zombie (Crypt:2)
2 war dog zombies
2 swamp drake zombies
2 giant frog zombies
Terence (D:4)
6 oozes
5 butterflies
A snake skeleton (Geh:7)
9 giant eyeballs
A green rat skeleton (Tar:2)
A giant centipede skeleton (D:20)
6 giant ant zombies
A hound zombie (D:9)
2 killer bee zombies
4 scorpion zombies
4 giant eyeball zombies
2 orange rat zombies
A sheep zombie (Geh:7)
603 ufetubi
35 jackals
237 orcs
34 hobgoblins
125 grey rats
A grey rat (shapeshifter) (Vault:8)
35 giant mosquitos
12 giant cockroaches
19 quokkas
12 giant geckos
58 giant bats
A giant bat zombie (Tomb:3)
A giant bat skeleton (D:24)
39 goblins
2 goblin zombies
A goblin skeleton (Tar:7)
A jackal skeleton (Crypt:5)
50 killer bee larvae
3 killer bee larva zombies
20 orc zombies
8 orc skeletons
48 rats
3 rat zombies
A rat skeleton (Crypt:5)
A rat simulacrum (Tomb:3)
6 giant spores
A hobgoblin zombie (Geh:7)
46 kobolds
3 kobold zombies
A kobold skeleton (Vault:6)
6 snake zombies
6 butterfly zombies
5 butterfly skeletons
19 fake rakshasas
2 giant mite zombies
4 grey rat zombies
A grey rat skeleton (Tar:1)
A green rat zombie (Geh:7)
2 giant centipede zombies
A giant centipede simulacrum (D:20)
2 ant larva zombies (Dis:1)
An ant larva simulacrum (Tomb:3)
4 small snakes
8 giant newts
2 program bugs (Abyss)
13 fungi
14 plants

10023 creatures vanquished.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Congratulations. When I read that you were trying to get through with a
hunter I ran a couple HDHus. They did well in the early game but I kept
messing up. Somebody (Tina Hall?) wrote that hunters have a lot of bad
luck and mine were unlucky, all right. Good on you for breaking the
jinx. I haven't seen a VP for a hunter till now.

I see you ran into a few shapeshifters. Do you wait for them to switch
to a weak form?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

> T - the -3,-5 katana of the Inferno (327 gold)
> It protects you from magic.
> It enhances your eyesight.

I've never found a randart katana. Nice souvenir. Ach, what a waste!

> HP : 32/222
> The Pit Fiend calls on the powers of Hell!
> Your body is wracked with pain!
> The Pit Fiend makes a gesture!
> The hellfire explodes!

And what a close escape! After all that time in Pandemonium....

> UplnePav the Merry Elf

What skill gives "Merry Elf"? Bows?

> Q - a staff of enchantment (250 gold)

For a boost to Paralyze?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

My experiences with dwarven hunters were much the same. Elven halls
were pretty easy, for instance, vaults were tricky (two of them died
there), crossbows excel in the midgame (and aren't bad early, either)
and became weak in the end. Or weak as I approached the end, the
highest I got a hunter was clvl 20 or so.

Maybe one start out of three had ammo probs in the early going. I'd
estimate that it's usual for me to find about 60 each of arrows and
bolts by the time I get to the temple. Both are often on my pick up
list, so I'm not just pulling that figure out of my ass. That's plenty
for a dwarf, provided an axe or mace turns up. If you get stuck with a
club-- or worse, a cursed mace or flail-- well, there's always the up
stairs. Minos, who start with bows, seemed less viable anyway, and
seemed to run through ammo quicker. I only tried a couple MiHus though.

I like bows and crossbows as they are but I do agree that it's
unfortunate that several races with bonuses to learning bows cannot
make proper use of them. It's only fantasy genre convention that says
that elves have to be good with bows and dwarves should use crossbows
but those conventions are what players expect and some will fuss if
they aren't borne out. Realisticly, I suppose elves would be too short
and slight to make much use of a longbow. Still and all, fantasy
convention is the rule. Ghouls shouldn't be monks because they aren't
monastic, for instance. I suppose Saint Benedict could deliver the
quivering palm of death and hunted treasure in underground mazes
professionally? The D&D monk owed more to the TV show "Kung Fu" than
anything else. I'm not complaining, exactly, just saying.

I guess if I was going to tinker with how missile weapons work in Crawl
I'd give a bit more strength to hunters and make randart bows, slings,
and crossbows more common and more likely gifts from Okawaru, with the
usual preference for developed skills. IMO, the bows, slings, and
crossbows skills should be secondary skills because it really doesn't
make much sense to me to be using a bow exclusively in an enclosed
environment where visibility is limited and the targets try to close
rather than flee. Beyond that I might make more types available--
short, long, composite bows, for instance, with limitations on what
races can use which.

I remember you saying once that it seemed off for strength to needed to
get the most out of enchanted bows. If it helps at all, I rationalize
that as the enchantment makes the bow harder to pull. Perhaps you could
make dexterity the requirement to get the most out of to hit bonuses
and strength to get the most out of damage bonuses. I mean, if you
decide to mess with it at all. Personally, I'd rather see a patch that
makes the beginning a bit easier and tinkers with the skills of certain
combinations. For example, eliminating dodge on beginning paladins and
giving them some armor-- both the skill and a set of ring mail. I'd
also want to open that class up to some more races, too. It probably
sounds like I want to take advantage of the long blade they start with,
and I do. It's just that their disadvantages are too high as it is.
IMO, of course. And I thought sludge elves were tough to start as
transmuters, jeez, nagas are impossible so far as I can see.

 

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smartwick@yahoo.com wrote:
smartwick@yahoo.com wrote:

> Congratulations. When I read that you were trying to get through with
> a hunter I ran a couple HDHus.

Actually, if it weren't for my stubborn insistence on sticking to
unascended races, I would certainly gone with a MDHu (in fact at one
point I got frustrated, gave up, and did exactly that -- I then cut
through the game like a knife through butter until I absent-mindedly
fell into a lake). Even with a 40% difference in aptitude (CE's at 60
for bows, MD's at 100 for xbows), the vastly better ammo situation and
the freedom to get full benefit from damage enchantments from the very
start of the game are a decisive advantage.

> They did well in the early game but I kept
> messing up. Somebody (Tina Hall?) wrote that hunters have a lot of bad
> luck and mine were unlucky, all right.

From the PC's perspective, I can imagine falling into a lake to be
pretty bad luck as well.

> Good on you for breaking the
> jinx. I haven't seen a VP for a hunter till now.

First and only previous archery title AFAICT was John Fouhy's (this is
all I know about John Fouhy, actually) with a Centaur in, I believe,
3.01. But hunters on the whole are definitely in the middle of the pack
as far as starting classes' representations among YAVPs -- not on a par
with fighters or berserkers, but there have been several before.

> I see you ran into a few shapeshifters. Do you wait for them to switch
> to a weak form?

I sometimes "assisted" them in switching to a weak form with the help of
a wand of draining. (OK, that's a little obscure, as have been *all* my
ravings about \oDr and shapeshifters -- the deal is this. Their current
hit dice affect what they're allowed to change into -- that is, they
can't suddenly change into something with a lot more hit dice and maybe
not even with any more at all -- I'd have to go back and refresh my
memory to be sure.)

However, certainly their current form has an impact on how I approach
them. Acid blob? Just run like hell, usually. Golden dragon?
Pure-physical approach. Ice dragon? Hurray, pull out the wands or arrows
of fire. Shadow dragon? Ranged as it approaches, then hit it hard in
melee... and generally with a focus of, yes, hitting it hardest when
it's in a relatively non-frustrating form.

Erik

 

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Once upon a time, Erik Piper wrote thus:

> From the gameplay perspective, I don't like the way the anti-stab
> restriction is set up. Don't get me wrong, the restriction as such is
> dandy, themeful, flavorful, just fine. But its implementation is as an
> *interface* challenge. I play games to play games, not to overcome their

It's worse for those characters which are trying to sneak up on stuff. A TSO
worshipper can just shout or throw something at a monster who may not have
seen him yet. The x command is a stalker's only means of checking whether a
monster has seen him.

Pennance isn't usually a big problem, as you can retreat to a safe location
and wait for it to finish. It's worse if you're careless in situations where
you can't retreat easily, and worse if your piety is still over 149 (which,
AFAICT, prevents pennance from timing out), but these are rare circumstances.

Then again, it is a bit nastier with an ogre's metabolism...

--
kwaheri, Kieron (reverse username to reply)

 

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Kieron Dunbar wrote:
> Once upon a time, Erik Piper wrote thus:
>
>
>> From the gameplay perspective, I don't like the way the anti-stab
>>restriction is set up. Don't get me wrong, the restriction as such is
>>dandy, themeful, flavorful, just fine. But its implementation is as an
>>*interface* challenge. I play games to play games, not to overcome their
>
> It's worse for those characters which are trying to sneak up on stuff. A TSO
> worshipper can just shout or throw something at a monster who may not have
> seen him yet. The x command is a stalker's only means of checking whether a
> monster has seen him.

But if you fail to sneak up on something, you have a short-term problem,
rather than the longer-term problem for a TSO worshipper. And you only
really need to sneak up on things some of the time, and it's usually a
deliberate decision so it's on your mind. Whereas an accidental stab can
mess you up with TSO at any moment and you have to be on your guard
against it *all* the ever-lovin' time.

> Pennance isn't usually a big problem, as you can retreat to a safe location
> and wait for it to finish.

Hmm, my experience has been different -- but then I don't like eating
rations when I could be eating corpses; if that's not a concern, I guess
it's different.

> It's worse if you're careless in situations where
> you can't retreat easily,

What do you mean here?

> and worse if your piety is still over 149 (which,
> AFAICT, prevents pennance from timing out), but these are rare circumstances.

Interesting! I checked this out and got the same impression... no
time-based penance decreases without time-based piety increases, no
time-based piety increases if your piety's over 149. I wouldn't say it's
rare -- it just requires you to actually get your piety up that high
first. Hard until the endgame, easy after that -- the game is brimming
in piety-producing monsters by that point. Fortunately, that also means
that ending the penance is just a matter of finding enough baddies to
slaughter for TSO... and it's not really that many; the stab penalty is
only 4 points. In that light I guess maybe stabbing isn't *such* a big
deal, but it's still pretty depressing to be punished just because you
blinked when you rounded a corner in a dull moment.

Also fortunately, only one stab in 5 actually initiates penance instead
of "just" causing piety loss... in that respect, things are merciful.

> Then again, it is a bit nastier with an ogre's metabolism...

I've run a couple of TSO-worshipping ogres. They didn't have to worry
about accidental stabs much -- generally the whole dungeon could hear
them coming from a mile away.

Erik

 

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Erik Piper wrote:
>
> Kieron Dunbar wrote:
>> Once upon a time, Erik Piper wrote thus:
>>
>>
>>> From the gameplay perspective, I don't like the way the anti-stab
>>>restriction is set up. Don't get me wrong, the restriction as such is
>>>dandy, themeful, flavorful, just fine. But its implementation is as an
>>>*interface* challenge. I play games to play games, not to overcome their
>>
>> It's worse for those characters which are trying to sneak up on stuff. A TSO
>> worshipper can just shout or throw something at a monster who may not have
>> seen him yet. The x command is a stalker's only means of checking whether a
>> monster has seen him.

> But if you fail to sneak up on something, you have a short-term problem,
> rather than the longer-term problem for a TSO worshipper. And you only
> really need to sneak up on things some of the time, and it's usually a
> deliberate decision so it's on your mind. Whereas an accidental stab can
> mess you up with TSO at any moment and you have to be on your guard
> against it *all* the ever-lovin' time.



>> Pennance isn't usually a big problem, as you can retreat to a safe location
>> and wait for it to finish.
>
> Hmm, my experience has been different -- but then I don't like eating
> rations when I could be eating corpses; if that's not a concern, I guess
> it's different.

>> It's worse if you're careless in situations where
>> you can't retreat easily,
>
> What do you mean here?
>
>> and worse if your piety is still over 149 (which,
>> AFAICT, prevents pennance from timing out), but these are rare circumstances.
>
> Interesting! I checked this out and got the same impression... no
> time-based penance decreases without time-based piety increases, no
> time-based piety increases if your piety's over 149. I wouldn't say it's
> rare -- it just requires you to actually get your piety up that high
> first. Hard until the endgame, easy after that -- the game is brimming
> in piety-producing monsters by that point. Fortunately, that also means
> that ending the penance is just a matter of finding enough baddies to
> slaughter for TSO... and it's not really that many; the stab penalty is
> only 4 points. In that light I guess maybe stabbing isn't *such* a big
> deal, but it's still pretty depressing to be punished just because you
> blinked when you rounded a corner in a dull moment.
>
> Also fortunately, only one stab in 5 actually initiates penance instead
> of "just" causing piety loss... in that respect, things are merciful.
>
>> Then again, it is a bit nastier with an ogre's metabolism...
>
> I've run a couple of TSO-worshipping ogres. They didn't have to worry
> about accidental stabs much -- generally the whole dungeon could hear
> them coming from a mile away.
>
> Erik

--
kwaheri, Kieron (reverse username to reply)

 

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Once upon a time, Erik Piper wrote thus:
> Kieron Dunbar wrote:
>> Once upon a time, Erik Piper wrote thus:

Sorry I took a while to respond. I've been a bit busy.

>>> From the gameplay perspective, I don't like the way the anti-stab
>>>restriction is set up. Don't get me wrong, the restriction as such is
>>>dandy, themeful, flavorful, just fine. But its implementation is as an
>>>*interface* challenge. I play games to play games, not to overcome their

>> It's worse for those characters which are trying to sneak up on stuff. A
>> TSO worshipper can just shout or throw something at a monster who may not
>> have seen him yet. The x command is a stalker's only means of checking
>> whether a monster has seen him.
> But if you fail to sneak up on something, you have a short-term problem,

It could become a long term problem if you have to use up supplies because
you wasted a turn trying to kill an alert monster with your Dagger of
Discomfiture.

> rather than the longer-term problem for a TSO worshipper. And you only

At worst, a TSO worshipper is looking at 1200 turns or so of not being able to
demand anything. It's an annoyance, but you should have somewhere you can go
to let it time out.

> really need to sneak up on things some of the time, and it's usually a
> deliberate decision so it's on your mind. Whereas an accidental stab can
> mess you up with TSO at any moment and you have to be on your guard
> against it *all* the ever-lovin' time.

One thing you might like to consider is running almost everywhere when you're
in a corridor. It won't take you anywhere too surprising, and you can't run
if you can see a monster, and so can't run into it.

Another thing which works is to train your reactions. If I'm playing a
fighter, my first response to seeing a weak monster near my character is to
walk over to it and hit it. If my fighter worships Okawaru, I start praying
first. If TSO, I throw a rock at it.

>> Pennance isn't usually a big problem, as you can retreat to a safe location
>> and wait for it to finish.

> Hmm, my experience has been different -- but then I don't like eating
> rations when I could be eating corpses; if that's not a concern, I guess
> it's different.

I don't immediately tuck into my permanent food supply while I'm waiting.
Instead I find a safe area to wander in until TSO forgives me. This can
occasionally force me to eat other food, but I'm not too worried as I've only
ever actually run out of food as a herbivore.

>> It's worse if you're careless in situations where
>> you can't retreat easily,
> What do you mean here?

Sorry, I was thinking of situations where you flee down the stairs from a
monster, only to anger TSO before you've found a way of dealing with or
avoiding that monster.

There may also be ways of angering TSO on a level after being gated onto it,
but it seems unlikely.

>> and worse if your piety is still over 149 (which,
>> AFAICT, prevents pennance from timing out), but these are rare

> time-based piety increases if your piety's over 149. I wouldn't say it's
> rare -- it just requires you to actually get your piety up that high
> first. Hard until the endgame, easy after that -- the game is brimming

As I haven't reached the endgame yet, or played a Divine Warrior for that
matter, I can only say that it's rare for me.

> only 4 points. In that light I guess maybe stabbing isn't *such* a big
> deal, but it's still pretty depressing to be punished just because you
> blinked when you rounded a corner in a dull moment.

I hope I've given you a couple of ideas of how to deal make it easier to
avoid above.

> Also fortunately, only one stab in 5 actually initiates penance instead
> of "just" causing piety loss... in that respect, things are merciful.

The difference between "I'll have to do something about that" and "I'll have
to do something about that right now" is a pretty big one...

>> Then again, it is a bit nastier with an ogre's metabolism...
> I've run a couple of TSO-worshipping ogres. They didn't have to worry
> about accidental stabs much -- generally the whole dungeon could hear
> them coming from a mile away.

Actually, most of the characters I've played didn't have too much stealth to
speak of either (my favourite combo being an orc fighter, largely due to the
starting armour), particularly not in the plate mail they tend to wear. I've
tried running a few spriggan assassins as paladins recently for comparison,
but the only thing I've been able to conclude so far is that keeping in TSO's
favour isn't their biggest problem.

Just as a final note about TSO and stealth, I've noticed that smiting does not
wake the target up, or even attract its attention to you. You would need to
find a monster worthy of smiting before it wakes up, but it is some sort of
compensation for the problems of wearing high stealth kit.

--
kwaheri, Kieron (reverse username to reply)

 

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Kieron Dunbar wrote:
> Once upon a time, Erik Piper wrote thus:
>
>>Kieron Dunbar wrote:
>>
>>>Once upon a time, Erik Piper wrote thus:
>
> Sorry I took a while to respond. I've been a bit busy.

'sfine, thanks for getting back to this in any case.

>>>>From the gameplay perspective, I don't like the way the anti-stab
>>>>restriction is set up. Don't get me wrong, the restriction as such is
>>>>dandy, themeful, flavorful, just fine. But its implementation is as an
>>>>*interface* challenge. I play games to play games, not to overcome their
>
>>>It's worse for those characters which are trying to sneak up on stuff. A
>>>TSO worshipper can just shout or throw something at a monster who may not
>>>have seen him yet. The x command is a stalker's only means of checking
>>>whether a monster has seen him.
>>
>>But if you fail to sneak up on something, you have a short-term problem,
>
> It could become a long term problem if you have to use up supplies because
> you wasted a turn trying to kill an alert monster with your Dagger of
> Discomfiture.

Generally if you've switched to your "Dagger of Discomfiture" (I presume
you mean a bad dagger granting good stealth" it's because you've made a
deliberate decision to sacrifice something else for a stab, so you
already have a mental string wrapped around your finger to be alert for
monsters' alert status... and it's a specific incident, not a constant
process.

I'm not sure where to fit in the following bit, but... frankly, if you
don't "hear a [species monster-alerted noise]," the chances that it's
alert are pretty small.

I say this on the basis of having played this type of character quite a
bit FWIW... it was my first YAVP.

>>rather than the longer-term problem for a TSO worshipper. And you only
>
> At worst, a TSO worshipper is looking at 1200 turns

Sorry for butting in in mid-sentence... but for me, that's fairly long-term.

> or so of not being able to
> demand anything. It's an annoyance, but you should have somewhere you can go
> to let it time out.

You mean just sit around? I can't imagine just sitting around generating
no food for 1200 turns, and besides, it's boring. You mean the
easiest possible part of the dungeon? The path of least resistance ("the
pendulum") is a good path in any case, yes... Maybe I'm missing the
point, and you mean something else entirely.

>>really need to sneak up on things some of the time, and it's usually a
>>deliberate decision so it's on your mind.

Aha... thought I'd said the things above in some other form earlier,
though I guess I was too brief with it.

>>Whereas an accidental stab can
>>mess you up with TSO at any moment and you have to be on your guard
>>against it *all* the ever-lovin' time.
>
> One thing you might like to consider is running almost everywhere when you're
> in a corridor. It won't take you anywhere too surprising, and you can't run
> if you can see a monster, and so can't run into it.

I find SHIFT-movement pretty annoying to work with, sad to say. A matter
of taste, I guess. Actually, overall I find the simplest solution
(besides avoiding TSO, which is a bit of a shame) to be just to minimize
my stealth however possible... though that kind of leaves eventual high
elven paladins of mine in a dilemma... though there are always the other
paladin races, of course.

> Another thing which works is to train your reactions. If I'm playing a
> fighter, my first response to seeing a weak monster near my character is to
> walk over to it and hit it. If my fighter worships Okawaru, I start praying
> first. If TSO, I throw a rock at it.

Again, if I don't "hear a shout," that's enough of a sign if I'm
spending multiple turns on the approach. The big problem is the
corners... all in all, the big problem with running a TSO worshipper is
that it's a bit what I once read about the like the life of a navy
officer -- six months of boredom and six minutes of being on high alert.
Cut that down to minutes and tenths of seconds, and you've got what you
need to keep your nose clean with TSO... and I'm not cut out for it. It
just doesn't feel very fun. Which is also about me, of course.

>>>Pennance isn't usually a big problem, as you can retreat to a safe location
>>>and wait for it to finish.
>
>>Hmm, my experience has been different -- but then I don't like eating
>>rations when I could be eating corpses; if that's not a concern, I guess
>>it's different.
>
> I don't immediately tuck into my permanent food supply while I'm waiting.
> Instead I find a safe area to wander in until TSO forgives me. This can
> occasionally force me to eat other food, but I'm not too worried as I've only
> ever actually run out of food as a herbivore.

I think what I'd do, actually, is preserve myself a DESu or two at the
bottom of the Orcish Mines, preferably in a small, isolated section. ;-)

[...]

> There may also be ways of angering TSO on a level after being gated onto it,
> but it seems unlikely.

Interesting question... although TSO has a lot of dislikes, most are
strategic (no necromancy, poison, unholy items). There's another one
besides where you can still fairly easily forget if you're not in Total
Paladin Mode, and that's butchering while praying. Mainly you have to
connect praying in your head with not-butchering. (For some reason I've
never noticed being punished for this, but whatever.) Then there's
things around your friends -- so you have to connect summoning
invocations in your head with the use of extreme caution, but there's
always a chance of unexpected trouble (e.g. enter level, fire giant in
sight and immediately alerted, fire giant sends fireball, friends fried,
or whatever).

>>only 4 points. In that light I guess maybe stabbing isn't *such* a big
>>deal, but it's still pretty depressing to be punished just because you
>>blinked when you rounded a corner in a dull moment.
>
> I hope I've given you a couple of ideas of how to deal make it easier to
> avoid above.

Two words: plate mail. ;-) Again, I want to play CRAWL, not "the Not
Stabbing game."

I guess what it comes down to is that different people enjoy different
things (e.g. you find stealth/stabbing troublesome similarly to how I
find never-stabbing troublesome)... in that respect, Crawl offers plenty
of space for everyone, thankfully.

>>>Then again, it is a bit nastier with an ogre's metabolism...
>>
>>I've run a couple of TSO-worshipping ogres. They didn't have to worry
>>about accidental stabs much -- generally the whole dungeon could hear
>>them coming from a mile away.
>
> Actually, most of the characters I've played didn't have too much stealth to
> speak of either (my favourite combo being an orc fighter, largely due to the
> starting armour), particularly not in the plate mail they tend to wear.

I've played very few unstealthy characters on the other hand -- while
focusing on unYAVPed races is a recent thing for me, I've always been
one for characters off the beaten path, and heavy armour seems to be
quite a beaten path (I guess people find it easier, afor some reason
I've never had much luck with it). Also, I play a lot of partial and
full spellcasters and like auxiliary unarmed a lot, and heavy armour is
a little troublesome for both.

> I've
> tried running a few spriggan assassins as paladins recently for comparison,
> but the only thing I've been able to conclude so far is that keeping in TSO's
> favour isn't their biggest problem.

It's possible to succeed with a fighter from a low-HP race (above all,
Fighting skill can eventually be developed to build HP despite the poor
aptitude -- "one poor aptitude does not a poor combo make")... but if
you have one hand tied behind your back on top of that... oof!

> Just as a final note about TSO and stealth, I've noticed that smiting does not
> wake the target up, or even attract its attention to you. You would need to
> find a monster worthy of smiting before it wakes up, but it is some sort of
> compensation for the problems of wearing high stealth kit.

The rod version works the same regarding alerting monsters... and if it
works anything like the same regarding damage, I'm not sure I'd want to
be paying piety for the privilege. ;-)

Erik

 

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Once upon a time, Erik Piper wrote thus:
> Kieron Dunbar wrote:
>> Once upon a time, Erik Piper wrote thus:
>>>Kieron Dunbar wrote:
>>>>Once upon a time, Erik Piper wrote thus:

>>>>>From the gameplay perspective, I don't like the way the anti-stab
>>>>>restriction is set up. Don't get me wrong, the restriction as such is
>>>>>dandy, themeful, flavorful, just fine. But its implementation is as an
>>>>>*interface* challenge. I play games to play games, not to overcome their

>>>>It's worse for those characters which are trying to sneak up on stuff. A
>>>>TSO worshipper can just shout or throw something at a monster who may not
>>>>have seen him yet. The x command is a stalker's only means of checking
>>>>whether a monster has seen him.

>>>But if you fail to sneak up on something, you have a short-term problem,

>> It could become a long term problem if you have to use up supplies because
>> you wasted a turn trying to kill an alert monster with your Dagger of
>> Discomfiture.

> Generally if you've switched to your "Dagger of Discomfiture" (I presume
> you mean a bad dagger granting good stealth" it's because you've made a

I was thinking more of a perfectly ordinary dagger for a character who would
otherwise use a perfectly ordinary long sword or crossbow or something. I
don't really understand you_attack() too well, but impaling a monster and then
switching to kill it seems to be an efficient use of game time.

> deliberate decision to sacrifice something else for a stab, so you
> already have a mental string wrapped around your finger to be alert for
> monsters' alert status... and it's a specific incident, not a constant
> process.

I suppose that's just a difference of viewpoint. I usually decide to stab or
throw things at a monster in response to seeing it as I wander the dungeon.
While the decision to stab things is a deliberate one, I'll do all sorts of
other stuff without changing my desire to stab anything I feel safe stabbing.

> I'm not sure where to fit in the following bit, but... frankly, if you
> don't "hear a [species monster-alerted noise]," the chances that it's
> alert are pretty small.

I suppose it becomes easier with practice, but I can't accurately gauge which
monster will have been woken up by a shout in a nearby room. This means that I
usually end up checking the monsters individually to work out tactics.

> I say this on the basis of having played this type of character quite a
> bit FWIW... it was my first YAVP.

>>>rather than the longer-term problem for a TSO worshipper. And you only
>> At worst, a TSO worshipper is looking at 1200 turns
> Sorry for butting in in mid-sentence... but for me, that's fairly long-term.

It's a couple of minutes or so from my PoV.

The reason why I don't see 1200 turns as being an obstacle may be because I'm
used to the much longer periods of relative idleness needed to get TSO to
watch my character carefully in the first place.

>> or so of not being able to
>> demand anything. It's an annoyance, but you should have somewhere you can
>> go to let it time out.

> You mean just sit around? I can't imagine just sitting around generating
> no food for 1200 turns, and besides, it's boring. You mean the
> easiest possible part of the dungeon? The path of least resistance ("the
> pendulum") is a good path in any case, yes... Maybe I'm missing the
> point, and you mean something else entirely.

Perhaps the point is that I tend not to kill everything I see, so that I have
a fairly good idea of where to look for an easy meal even without poison
resistance.

>>>really need to sneak up on things some of the time, and it's usually a
>>>deliberate decision so it's on your mind.

> Aha... thought I'd said the things above in some other form earlier,
> though I guess I was too brief with it.

>>>Whereas an accidental stab can
>>>mess you up with TSO at any moment and you have to be on your guard
>>>against it *all* the ever-lovin' time.

>> One thing you might like to consider is running almost everywhere when
>> you're in a corridor. It won't take you anywhere too surprising, and you
>> can't run if you can see a monster, and so can't run into it.

> I find SHIFT-movement pretty annoying to work with, sad to say. A matter
> of taste, I guess. Actually, overall I find the simplest solution

Hmm, pity...

> (besides avoiding TSO, which is a bit of a shame) to be just to minimize
> my stealth however possible... though that kind of leaves eventual high
> elven paladins of mine in a dilemma... though there are always the other
> paladin races, of course.

Elven armour only beats dwarven armour if you want to be stealthy or want to
cast spells. Playing another race wouldn't solve your dilemma either way.

>> Another thing which works is to train your reactions. If I'm playing a
>> fighter, my first response to seeing a weak monster near my character is to
>> walk over to it and hit it. If my fighter worships Okawaru, I start praying
>> first. If TSO, I throw a rock at it.

> Again, if I don't "hear a shout," that's enough of a sign if I'm
> spending multiple turns on the approach. The big problem is the

Sorry, I was making the assumption that the monster hasn't already told you
that it's coming after you above. I was trying to explain that you don't need
to check what signals it is giving out.

> corners... all in all, the big problem with running a TSO worshipper is
> that it's a bit what I once read about the like the life of a navy
> officer -- six months of boredom and six minutes of being on high alert.

> Cut that down to minutes and tenths of seconds, and you've got what you
> need to keep your nose clean with TSO... and I'm not cut out for it. It
> just doesn't feel very fun. Which is also about me, of course.

Do you often have problems with ruining your weapons on jellies, or forgetting
to dedicate kills to gods who appreciate it? These look like the same problem
as stabbing with TSO to me, but I don't know how you see things.

[Pennance]
>> I don't immediately tuck into my permanent food supply while I'm waiting.
>> Instead I find a safe area to wander in until TSO forgives me. This can
>> occasionally force me to eat other food, but I'm not too worried as I've
>> only ever actually run out of food as a herbivore.

> I think what I'd do, actually, is preserve myself a DESu or two at the
> bottom of the Orcish Mines, preferably in a small, isolated section. ;-)

That'd work once you can handle a DESu, I suppose. I mentally associate them
with demons who destroy my stuff, so I've never tried it.

>> There may also be ways of angering TSO on a level after being gated onto
>> it, but it seems unlikely.
> Interesting question... although TSO has a lot of dislikes, most are
> strategic (no necromancy, poison, unholy items). There's another one
> besides where you can still fairly easily forget if you're not in Total
> Paladin Mode, and that's butchering while praying. Mainly you have to

That's only a problem for worshippers of Elyvilon, Okawaru, Makhleb and Trog.
TSO doesn't care what you do with the bodies of the fallen.

> never noticed being punished for this, but whatever.) Then there's
> things around your friends -- so you have to connect summoning
> invocations in your head with the use of extreme caution, but there's
> always a chance of unexpected trouble (e.g. enter level, fire giant in

Only Elyvilon punishes players for killing summons. Okawaru, TSO and Zin just
dock a few piety points. While this makes them unsuitable gods for a summoner
or necromancer, losing a few daevas isn't going to matter much so long as you
benefited from summoning them in the first place.

Elyvilon's punishments are, of course, only a short term problem as you can
sacrifice rubbish at its altar to assuage its non-wrath.

>>>only 4 points. In that light I guess maybe stabbing isn't *such* a big
>>>deal, but it's still pretty depressing to be punished just because you
>>>blinked when you rounded a corner in a dull moment.
>> I hope I've given you a couple of ideas of how to deal make it easier to
>> avoid above.
> Two words: plate mail. ;-) Again, I want to play CRAWL, not "the Not
> Stabbing game."

That's fine. I'm just trying to understand why this seems like such a
distinction to you, through some of the things I've said and the questions
I've asked about a page above.

> I guess what it comes down to is that different people enjoy different
> things (e.g. you find stealth/stabbing troublesome similarly to how I
> find never-stabbing troublesome)... in that respect, Crawl offers plenty
> of space for everyone, thankfully.

I'm not at all sure what way you mean here. Stabbing is a benefit I can try to
use or ignore as I please. The only problem is that the information I need to
use it may be hidden away.

>>>>Then again, it is a bit nastier with an ogre's metabolism...

>>>I've run a couple of TSO-worshipping ogres. They didn't have to worry
>>>about accidental stabs much -- generally the whole dungeon could hear
>>>them coming from a mile away.

>> Actually, most of the characters I've played didn't have too much stealth
>> to speak of either (my favourite combo being an orc fighter, largely due to
>> the starting armour), particularly not in the plate mail they tend to wear.

> I've played very few unstealthy characters on the other hand -- while
> focusing on unYAVPed races is a recent thing for me, I've always been
> one for characters off the beaten path, and heavy armour seems to be
> quite a beaten path (I guess people find it easier, afor some reason
> I've never had much luck with it). Also, I play a lot of partial and

I suppose it's largely because, while a bit of armour or dodging skill reduces
the damage you expect to take, plate mail does so without any skill. As a
couple of lucky hits from a kobold can kill a level 1 character, that's quite
handy.

> full spellcasters and like auxiliary unarmed a lot, and heavy armour is
> a little troublesome for both.

Naturally. I haven't followed either route with a paladin because of the
skill dilution involved.

>> I've tried running a few spriggan assassins as paladins recently for
> It's possible to succeed with a fighter from a low-HP race (above all,
> Fighting skill can eventually be developed to build HP despite the poor
> aptitude -- "one poor aptitude does not a poor combo make")... but if
> you have one hand tied behind your back on top of that... oof!

It isn't really a serious plan, as spriggans don't have enough HP for close
combat without training (which would mean developing a second skill they're
not much good with). This leaves the ex-assassin looking around for a way
of killing any mildly dangerous monster.

The lack of HP is particularly severe if you take advantage of your speed and
poison to kill an ogre or something early on because of the way level gains
work. If you gain one level at a time, you get the the racial modifiers for
that level. If you gain two, you get the modifiers for the higher level gained
and twice those for the lower. If you gain five with a spriggan, you can have
13 HP and 18 SP by the end of it and consider yourself lucky.

If I actually want to succeed as a spriggan paladin, following Makhleb for a
while and only converting to TSO once I stop relying on a god to destroy
things for me sounds more feasible. Except that Makhleb doesn't care who I
stab...

>> Just as a final note about TSO and stealth, I've noticed that smiting does
>> not wake the target up, or even attract its attention to you. You would

> The rod version works the same regarding alerting monsters... and if it

It isn't quite the same, as rods always alert wandering monsters, but it's
close.

> works anything like the same regarding damage, I'm not sure I'd want to
> be paying piety for the privilege. ;-)

It ranges from an average of 5 points with no skill to 32 at skill level 27.
It's not much good for crowd control (depending on the crowd, converting to Zin and casting Holy Word may be better there), but can often kill a monster
before it does anything dangerous.

--
kwaheri, Kieron (reverse username to reply)