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-Crawl- What strategies should a Cj use in extended endgame?

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Anonymous
September 29, 2005 5:56:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

I'm obviously quite some way from this yet, but I'm still hoping to get
there and wonder how a conjurer copes in Pan and the hells. One on one
I know my crystal spear will take down just about anything very
quickly, but in the meantime other stuff is heading my way and with low
hit points I'm not sure I'm going to be able to survive getting next to
any of the harder hitters without some severe scumming to train dodging
on weaker stuff. What other options are open to me?

Anyway here's a boring HECj dump. So far I've completed lair, mines and
hive. Only one slightly scary moment when my cold bolts missed a grey
snake and it got a couple of hits in on me... Nasty! Was forced to
blink to get a bit of distance and then blast away. Could have killed
me, but other than that no tricky moments. Really need to find amnesia
somewhere to free up points for cystal spear and some of the beefier
cold spells.

Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26 character file.


Sparkles the Destroyer

Race : High Elf Res.Fire : + . . See Invis. : .
Class : Conjurer Res.Cold : + . . Warding : .
Worship : Vehumet Life Prot.: . . . Conserve : .
Level : 15 Res.Poison: . Res.Corr. : .
Exp : 149656 Res.Elec. : . Gourmand : .
Next Level : 158249
Exp Needed : 8593 Sust.Abil.: . Rnd.Telep. : .
Spls.Left : 4 Res.Mut. : . Ctrl.Telep.: .
Gold : 154 Res.Slow : . Levitation : .
Clarity : + Ctrl.Flight: .
HP : 70
MP : 45
Str : 8 Weapon : staff of wizardry
Int : 27 Armour : +4 robe (resist)

// Yum! Staff of power was doing well but I think I prefer the extra
oopmh from this. I have enough MP for now.

Dex : 15 Shield :
AC : 10 Helmet : +2 wizard's hat
Evasion : 12 Cloak : +0 orc cloak
Shield : 0 Gloves : +0 pair of gloves
Boots : +0 pair of orc boots (stealth)
Play time : 13:28:07 Amulet : amulet of clarity
Turns : 47062 Ring : ring of magical power
Ring : ring of sustenance


You are in the Lair.
You worship Vehumet.
Vehumet is exalted by your worship.
You are full.

Inventory:
Hand weapons
K - a +0 elven dagger
Armour
b - a +0 pair of gloves (worn)
i - a +0 pair of orcish boots of stealth (worn)
u - a +2 wizard's hat (worn)
H - a +4 robe of resistance (worn)
J - a +0 orcish cloak (worn)
Magical devices
f - a wand of digging
y - a wand of draining
z - a wand of hasting (17)
B - a wand of lightning (7)
C - a wand of fire (2)
G - a wand of fireball
M - a wand of disintegration

// Probably carrying too many wands. Damage wands for emergencies with
MP. Disintegration, draining and digging for their usual purposes. I
guess the draining one can go.

Comestibles
N - 5 royal jellies
Scrolls
d - 2 scrolls of remove curse
j - 2 scrolls of teleportation
A - a scroll of magic mapping
F - a scroll of blinking
P - a scroll of identify
Jewellery
c - a ring of magical power (right hand)
h - a ring of sustenance (left hand)
E - an amulet of clarity (around neck)

// I do have a ring of ice... But sustenance I love to stop hungering
and the extra MP from the other ring come in handy. Once I have a few
more MP I may go for ring of ice+ring of protection from fire unless
another source of res fire comes up. Why be vulnerable to anything when
i don't have to be?

Potions
e - 2 potions of restore abilities
g - a potion of berserk rage
l - 2 potions of heal wounds
m - 5 potions of healing
p - 5 potions of might
t - 2 potions of speed
Magical staves
a - a staff of wizardry (weapon)


You have 3 experience left.

Skills:
- Level 1 Short Blades
+ Level 3 Staves
+ Level 5 Dodging
+ Level 6 Stealth
+ Level 13 Spellcasting
+ Level 18 Conjurations
+ Level 2 Translocations
+ Level 4 Divinations
- Level 12 Ice Magic
- Level 1 Air Magic
+ Level 3 Earth Magic
+ Level 3 Evocations


You have 4 spell levels left.
You know the following spells:

Your Spells Type Success
Level
a - Magic Dart Conjuration Perfect 1
b - Throw Frost Ice/Conjuration Perfect 2
c - Mephitic Cloud Poison/Air/Conjuration Excellent 3
d - Bolt of Cold Ice/Conjuration Excellent 5
e - Detect Creatures Divination Excellent 2
f - Ozocubu's Armour Ice/Enchantment Excellent 3
g - Magic Mapping Earth/Divination Great 4
h - Blink Translocation Great 2
i - Bolt of Iron Earth/Conjuration Great 6
j - Iskenderun's Mystic Blast Conjuration Perfect 4
k - Controlled Blink Translocation Very Good 4


Last Messages

Welcome, Sparkles the High Elf Conjurer.
Let it end in hellfire!
Anonymous
September 29, 2005 9:20:51 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Dafty wrote:
> I'm obviously quite some way from this yet, but I'm still hoping to get
> there and wonder how a conjurer copes in Pan and the hells. One on one
> I know my crystal spear will take down just about anything very
> quickly, but in the meantime other stuff is heading my way and with low
> hit points I'm not sure I'm going to be able to survive getting next to
> any of the harder hitters without some severe scumming to train dodging
> on weaker stuff. What other options are open to me?

It's been quite a while since I've done a Cj extended endgame, but
hopefully this will be of use regardless.

Really, combat itself is easy enough to avoid in most extended
endgames: you've got Swiftness, Levitation-boosted if you must, you've
got Haste if all else fails, and you've got controlled blink as well.
The real threat is getting cornered (so don't do that, then) and ranged
attacks -- so make sure you can cast a competent Deflect Missiles. And
learn Tomb of Doroklohe.

Then there's the tormenting, especially the Hell torments where you
just plain can't rest, unlike in Pan. Heck, even a fighter (pah!) can
rest better than you can as a conjurer. Mostly it just means multiple
runs, mapping-enhanced runs, and Tomb of Doroklohe to get a breather
when things are really desperate, but no-one's adjacent. The last of
these doesn't really apply in Cocytus, sadly (it's just begging to get
a freezing-cloud torment thrown at you).

Now for the Abyss. Conjurers are in my recollection a bit of a special
case in the Abyss. Your usual escape tricks are useless (except Tomb of
Doroklohe). You are better off than most until you run out of gas... at
which point, you are like the guy who draws his gun and hears click,
click, click as the enemy gunman draws near. If you plan to go there or
can reasonably expect to land there unplanned, bring food. Bring lots
of food. You'll live or die by Channel Energy, and that's
food-intensive. Tomb of Doroklohe also helps.

In the midgame, you're IMO a bit worse off in the Abyss than other
folks, as you run out of steam *so* quick. So if you're still feeling
midgamish, do be so kind to yourself as to learn and use Detect Traps.

I guess I should mention the Tomb. I've never done a real-man's
Conjurer clearing of the Tomb. I see no reason why it can't be done,
but I was a relative newbie in my conjurer days, and thus never
challenged the reigning assumption that the Tomb demands that you're
either undead or a summoner, and what with Vehumet being like he is...
In sum, learn Tomb of Doroklohe.

(The really ironic thing is that mummy curses aren't really all that
awful if you've been conservative with bog-standard !oH, which isn't
hard to do since they're not all that good anyway. It's the torments
that hurt, and summoning won't help there unless you're hiding in
you-know-what. And I wasn't sure enough about the game mechanics (about
how the summons would behave if I wasn't in their FOV to oversee them)
to consistently hide in it, so I actually tasted most of the brunt of
what I would be tasting later on during summoning-free runs.)

And to wrap things up, I think you should learn Tomb of Doroklohe. If
it has failed to appear, wait until it appears. Then learn Tomb of
Doroklohe.

:-)

> hive. Only one slightly scary moment when my cold bolts missed a grey
> snake and it got a couple of hits in on me... Nasty!

Grey snakes are the conjurer's bane. :-) I guess I'd recommend Mystic
Blast and trying to stay out of one-turn-close range (usually easy
enough with Controlled Blink). Still hard to do, I know.

> Was forced to
> blink to get a bit of distance and then blast away. Could have killed
> me, but other than that no tricky moments. Really need to find amnesia
> somewhere to free up points for cystal spear and some of the beefier
> cold spells.

And Tomb of Doroklohe! :-)

How about...
Magic Dart (Mystic Blast is enough)
Mephitic Cloud (replace with the 2-slot alternative Evaporate, fueled
by random bad-potion drops -- it's not needed THAT often after the
opening if you're careful... eventually it'll become useless in any
case)
Magic Mapping (a very nice convenience, but a mere convenience all the
samo IMO)
Blink (if it's worth blinking, it's worth controlled-blinking... sort
of. When you have 3 MP left, you look at things a bit differently...
but if you have a real slot drought, this can go.)

That's a cool 1+1(Evaporate downgrade)+4+2 = 8 slots, enough for the
Spear at least (not counting the cost of SA itself of course).

> Dungeon Crawl version 4.0.0 beta 26 character file.
> // Yum! Staff of power was doing well but I think I prefer the extra
> oopmh from this. I have enough MP for now.

What kills the staff of power for me (once anything decent rolls along)
is that butchering butchers it.

And Tomb of Doroklohe. (I'm sure that fits in there SOMEWHERE... once
you figure it out, tell me.)

> Dex : 15 Shield :
> AC : 10 Helmet : +2 wizard's hat
> Evasion : 12 Cloak : +0 orc cloak
> Shield : 0 Gloves : +0 pair of gloves
> Boots : +0 pair of orc boots (stealth)

Looking to infiltrate orcish society or something?

> u - a +2 wizard's hat (worn)

Stylish!

> H - a +4 robe of resistance (worn)

Stylish and useful!

And Tomb of Doroklohe!

> J - a +0 orcish cloak (worn)
> Magical devices
> f - a wand of digging
> y - a wand of draining
> z - a wand of hasting (17)
> B - a wand of lightning (7)
> C - a wand of fire (2)
> G - a wand of fireball
> M - a wand of disintegration
>
> // Probably carrying too many wands. Damage wands for emergencies with
> MP. Disintegration, draining and digging for their usual purposes.
> I guess the draining one can go.

Disintegration is a nifty way to extrac... er, never mind.

More seriously... I'd also drop drainingn for now -- save it for
Vault:8. "Become whatever lower-upper-class monster you want, but
you're not gonna be an Acid Blob or Golden Dragon ANY MORE! Lest I trap
you in the T--" err, sorry.

I'd save the Fire for later too, as it will remain effective for longer
than Lightning will. Fireball isn't really emulated by any other attack
wand (always hits, area effect, if a bit weak, all IIRC), so might as
well keep it.

[...jump forward in dump...]

> t - 2 potions of speed

Drop the Hasting too, as it will remain useful throughout the extended
endgame whereas the potions will not (except for their
contamination-free nature... that can't be argued with... but I'd
rather glow than go).

> j - 2 scrolls of teleportation

Useful if you ever trap yourself in a Tomb of Doroklohe. (Actually
serious this time... although if you really do go on to learn it, keep
in mind: scrolls burn...)

> A - a scroll of magic mapping

These puppies are why I'm not so big on the spell version. It's not
like there's a severe shortage of them.

> F - a scroll of blinking
> P - a scroll of identify
> Jewellery
> c - a ring of magical power (right hand)
> h - a ring of sustenance (left hand)
> E - an amulet of clarity (around neck)

If you're consistent with this, you can drop the Disintegration (since
you'll easily survive the first round of a statue encounter, you can
just return, armament in tow). 10 AUM is 10 AUM, especially for a
conjurer.

(Tidbit: ISTR from my archive-scouring days that AUM stands for
Arbitrary Unit of Measure. If that's true, it's delicious. And Tomb of
Doroklohe.)

> // I do have a ring of ice... But sustenance I love to stop hungering
> and the extra MP from the other ring come in handy. Once I have a few
> more MP I may go for ring of ice+ring of protection from fire unless
> another source of res fire comes up. Why be vulnerable to anything when
> i don't have to be?

Strictly speaking, non-protected rather than vulnerable -- your robe
already cancels the vulnerability.

> Potions
> e - 2 potions of restore abilities

Meh. (Apologies if it's just a matter of not being stashed yet.)

> g - a potion of berserk rage
> l - 2 potions of heal wounds
> m - 5 potions of healing

O_o

> p - 5 potions of might

o_O

You crush the Tomb of Doroklohe like a grape! The Tomb of Doroklohe
crumbles! You have escaped the Tomb of Doroklohe!

> Magical staves
> a - a staff of wizardry (weapon)
>
>
> You have 3 experience left.
>
> Skills:

> + Level 2 Translocations

Scum this up a bit. Controlled Blink is important enough to have at or
near Perfect.

Scum up your Enchantments once you get into them (and IMO you should).
The best ones are half-Air, and you'll be lagging in that, so you'll
need for the Enchantments end to pick up the slack.

> Last Messages
>
> Welcome, Sparkles the High Elf Conjurer.
> Let it end in hellfire!

:-P

e.
Anonymous
September 29, 2005 10:03:49 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

Eric wrote:
<snip the usual good advice>

Sounds pretty much what I thought :)  Some comments on your specific
comments later in the dump:

> Grey snakes are the conjurer's bane. :-) I guess I'd recommend Mystic
> Blast and trying to stay out of one-turn-close range (usually easy
> enough with Controlled Blink). Still hard to do, I know.

Only had the one that bothered me. Cold bolts took care of the rest.
Still no source of SI for me, so unseen horrors are really worrying!
Current tactic is to control blink to a wall or corridor, back away and
wait until it hits me again then blast my cold in that direction. Has
finished off about 4 so far. Would just prefer SI though!

<comments about what spells to ditch>
> How about...
> Magic Dart (Mystic Blast is enough)

Check. As soon as amnesia turns up. If it doesn't turn up I'm going to
struggle :) 

> Mephitic Cloud

Yeah just planning to get rid of this not replace. Don't use it any
more and i'm on L4 of the Vault. (Snake pit done, waiting to see if
poison resist turns up before tackling the swamp)

> Magic Mapping (a very nice convenience, but a mere convenience all the
> samo IMO)

Hmmm. I'd have thought picking your fight location pretty important for
a Cj. I'm finding I'm learning Earth skill very slowly too so it trains
that a bit. Think I'll keep it around for a while, possibly a long time
if amnesia doesn't turn up! :)  Should I be looking to max my earth
skill for crystal spear damage?

> Blink

Check. I need to train a bit more to make controlled a bit more
reliable methinks though.

> And Tomb of Doroklohe.

Yep. :)  Never learnt this one before but I'd gathered it was going to
come in pretty handy so is on my hitlist.

>> Boots : +0 pair of orc boots (stealth)
>
> Looking to infiltrate orcish society or something?

Can't. I killed them all :)  And the extra stealth always helps.

>> u - a +2 wizard's hat (worn)
>
> Stylish!

I thought so :) 

>> H - a +4 robe of resistance (worn)
>
> Stylish and useful!

Yep. I have just butched and got me a dragon hide. F++ C- combined with
a ring of Ice might be worth considering spell failure rates pending.
That said at some point my ice magic is only going to work on 50% or so
of the dungeon. Much less in undead rich areas...

<snip my comments about my wands>
> More seriously... I'd also drop drainingn for now -- save it for
> Vault:8. "Become whatever lower-upper-class monster you want, but
> you're not gonna be an Acid Blob or Golden Dragon ANY MORE! Lest I trap
> you in the T--" err, sorry.

Indeedy. That's the last time I used one I think :) 

> I'd save the Fire for later too, as it will remain effective for longer
> than Lightning will. Fireball isn't really emulated by any other attack
> wand (always hits, area effect, if a bit weak, all IIRC), so might as
> well keep it.

Check

>> t - 2 potions of speed
>
> Drop the Hasting too, as it will remain useful throughout the extended
> endgame whereas the potions will not (except for their
> contamination-free nature... that can't be argued with... but I'd
> rather glow than go).

Ah good point. Those charges on the hasting wand by the way came from 1
scroll of recharging after the wand was found with 0 charges in it :) 

>> j - 2 scrolls of teleportation
>
> Useful if you ever trap yourself in a Tomb of Doroklohe. (Actually
> serious this time... although if you really do go on to learn it, keep
> in mind: scrolls burn...)

Yeah I don't think I'd want to learn the Tomb unless I had a
spell/wand/artifact/ring method of teleporting out. Plenty of options
for that though. :) 

>> A - a scroll of magic mapping
>
> These puppies are why I'm not so big on the spell version. It's not
> like there's a severe shortage of them.

Maybe, but there isn't one per level. Will see how I go on spells...

>> c - a ring of magical power (right hand)
>> h - a ring of sustenance (left hand)
>> E - an amulet of clarity (around neck)
>
> If you're consistent with this, you can drop the Disintegration (since
> you'll easily survive the first round of a statue encounter, you can
> just return, armament in tow). 10 AUM is 10 AUM, especially for a
> conjurer.
>
> (Tidbit: ISTR from my archive-scouring days that AUM stands for
> Arbitrary Unit of Measure. If that's true, it's delicious. And Tomb of
> Doroklohe.)

:-) Point taken. I'd be wearing almost any other amulet had any others
turned up! Only seen 2 all game, both clarity...

>> // I do have a ring of ice... But sustenance I love to stop hungering
>> and the extra MP from the other ring come in handy. Once I have a few
>> more MP I may go for ring of ice+ring of protection from fire unless
>> another source of res fire comes up. Why be vulnerable to anything when
>> i don't have to be?
>
> Strictly speaking, non-protected rather than vulnerable -- your robe
> already cancels the vulnerability.

Yeah sorry I know of course.

>> Potions
>> e - 2 potions of restore abilities
>
> Meh. (Apologies if it's just a matter of not being stashed yet.)

I think I've got about 10 stashed :) 

>> g - a potion of berserk rage
>> l - 2 potions of heal wounds
>> m - 5 potions of healing
>
> O_o
>
>
>> p - 5 potions of might
>
> o_O

Actually no idea why i'm carrying the might ones. The healings I was
carrying to cure poison with. I do have others stashed and will stash
lots if I decided to do the tomb. Or I could switch to Ely :p 

> You crush the Tomb of Doroklohe like a grape! The Tomb of Doroklohe
> crumbles! You have escaped the Tomb of Doroklohe!

So this Tomb then... Pretty handy for a Cj? :p 

>> Skills:
>> + Level 2 Translocations
>
> Scum this up a bit. Controlled Blink is important enough to have at or
> near Perfect.

Yep aware I need to do this. Possibly sooner rather than later.

> Scum up your Enchantments once you get into them (and IMO you should).
> The best ones are half-Air, and you'll be lagging in that, so you'll
> need for the Enchantments end to pick up the slack.

Just learnt Repel missiles for this very reason Sir.


>> Last Messages
>> Welcome, Sparkles the High Elf Conjurer.
>> Let it end in hellfire!
>
> :-P
>
> e.

Name really suits him don't ya think? :) 


Rich
Anonymous
September 29, 2005 1:10:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.misc (More info?)

> An HECj in dragon armour? Oh yeah, man!
>
>
> That's what's relevant.


Well quite. Once you've learned the threats from various parts of the
game, and got someone going, winning is relatively easy. (bad luck
notwithstanding)

Winning with style, now that's gotta be my goal from now on :) 

That said, my resistances weren't as good with it, and my cold magic is
working pretty well without the Ice ring, so I'm going to leave it for
now.

Swamp completed. Learned poison resistance for it. Utter waste of time.
Really really really need Amnesia now! Vault cleared to 7. Looks like
elf halls next, or dungeon looking for items. Crypt i'd rather wait
until I've got the crystal spear I think.


Rich
!