SimpleGame 0.2.3 released

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Hi all,

Fairly major SimpleGame release, adding fire-breathing dragons and more
items, most notably wands to the mix.

Kick the tires at:

http://roguelike-eng.sourceforge.net/

Just click "Play SimpleGame"...if you don't have Java 5.0, get it at
java.com...

-Tom
 
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The SimpleGame source is currently included in the Ng distro, which is
hosted on sourceforge.

https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=90457 is the
download page; download ng[version].zip; all SimpleGame classes are in
the rle.simple package.

I appreciate the feedback...I agree that even basic "thwacking" sounds
would add to the gameplay; would be a nice complement to the
mini-combat-animations. The web site (and the magnified pillar) ARE
both pretty bad...wish I could say that vast improvements are in the
works, but I'll be honest instead... ;)

Java does indeed rock, but the API's can be a bit wierd...it was 10x as
hard to figure out how to implement the text-only display properly than
it was the tile graphics one...
 
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Ha!

(get it???)

Funny stuff, Heroic, and no problem that you chose me for a bit of a
rant... If you can't stand the long Java download time, I've heard
that some modems are up to 9600 baud nowadays...;)
 
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Tom Seufert wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Fairly major SimpleGame release, adding fire-breathing dragons and more
> items, most notably wands to the mix.
>
> Kick the tires at:
>
> http://roguelike-eng.sourceforge.net/
>
> Just click "Play SimpleGame"...if you don't have Java 5.0, get it at
> java.com...
>
> -Tom
>

WHAT?!?! Download Java? That's x.xx megs... my 2400 baud acoustic
coupler can't possibly handle that load, and how on earth will I save it
to my cassette player? Never mind that it will most likely be incredibly
slow or fast and maybe (or maybe not) buggy on my brand new antiquated
computer that runs MacOSX, 3 Linux Distros, Windows XP, ME and Longhorn
on a quadruple boot virtual machine.

heh...

Tom... this was not directed at you in any way and it was a lot funnier
when I first started typing it. Just poking fun at all the various OS
wars resulting from my "hey Try HA!" post... :)

S.

--
time to bring back this little gem:
Your Operating System is a tool, not a lifestyle choice. Fight OS-ism!
 
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On Wed, 04 May 2005 20:47:31 -0400, Heroic Adventure
<spambucket@heroicadventure.com> wrote:

>Tom Seufert wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Fairly major SimpleGame release, adding fire-breathing dragons and more
>> items, most notably wands to the mix.
>>
>> Kick the tires at:
>>
>> http://roguelike-eng.sourceforge.net/
>>
>> Just click "Play SimpleGame"...if you don't have Java 5.0, get it at
>> java.com...
>>
>> -Tom
>>
>
>WHAT?!?! Download Java? That's x.xx megs... my 2400 baud acoustic
>coupler can't possibly handle that load, and how on earth will I save it
>to my cassette player? Never mind that it will most likely be incredibly
>slow or fast and maybe (or maybe not) buggy on my brand new antiquated
>computer that runs MacOSX, 3 Linux Distros, Windows XP, ME and Longhorn
>on a quadruple boot virtual machine.
>
>heh...
>
>Tom... this was not directed at you in any way and it was a lot funnier
>when I first started typing it. Just poking fun at all the various OS
>wars resulting from my "hey Try HA!" post... :)

If it makes you feel better, I'm ignoring this "SimpleGame" for the
same extra download reason I'm ignoring HA. Mind you, if he's adding
fire-breathing dragons and wands, I'm not sure it deserve the name
"SimpleGame" anymore, anyway.

The thing is, there's *so* many games to try and so little time to
play them in, that the inconvenience barrier doesn't have to be very
high to have to me write a game off. If I had nothing to do but
download and play games, I'd maybe feel very differently.

R. Dan Henry
danhenry@inreach.com
Idiot boy, when are you going to post something useful?
Or better yet, get a job and stop being a welfare bum?
 
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Heroic Adventure wrote:
> WHAT?!?! Download Java? That's x.xx megs... my 2400 baud acoustic
> coupler can't possibly handle that load, and how on earth will I save it
> to my cassette player? Never mind that it will most likely be incredibly
> slow or fast and maybe (or maybe not) buggy on my brand new antiquated
> computer that runs MacOSX, 3 Linux Distros, Windows XP, ME and Longhorn
> on a quadruple boot virtual machine.

If so, boot to linux -- you got Java preinstalled there ;-P

> heh...
>
> Tom... this was not directed at you in any way and it was a lot funnier
> when I first started typing it. Just poking fun at all the various OS
> wars resulting from my "hey Try HA!" post... :)

Not exactly valid, y'know...
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"The name of GenRogue, has become a warning against excessively
complex design." -- RGRD FAQ
 
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Dnia Thu, 05 May 2005 03:00:40 +0200,
Kornel Kisielewicz napisal(a):

> Heroic Adventure wrote:
>> WHAT?!?! Download Java? That's x.xx megs... my 2400 baud acoustic
>> coupler can't possibly handle that load, and how on earth will I save it
>> to my cassette player? Never mind that it will most likely be incredibly
>> slow or fast and maybe (or maybe not) buggy on my brand new antiquated
>> computer that runs MacOSX, 3 Linux Distros, Windows XP, ME and Longhorn
>> on a quadruple boot virtual machine.
>
> If so, boot to linux -- you got Java preinstalled there ;-P

No, you don't. The licence disallows this.


--
Radomir @**@_ Bee! .**._ .**._ .**._ .**._ zZ
`The Sheep' ('') 3 (..) 3 (..) 3 (..) 3 (--) 3
Dopieralski .vvVvVVVVVvVVVvVVVvVvVVvVvvVvVVVVVVvvVVvvVvvvvVVvVVvv.v.
 
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I take your point...time always seems to be an RL issue, which is a bit
ironic since they're turn-based...:)

If it makes any difference, for people running windows with a broadband
connection, you can click "Download Ng" and download the
"ng[version]-with-windows-jre distro, which comes with the JRE and
..exe's to fire up the game. No installation is required; just unzip
the distro and run SimpleGame.exe to play...you can even do it on
public machines where your user account lacks install priveleges...

Not sure about any licensing issues, but Sun's lawyers haven't called
me yet...;)

-Tom
http://roguelike-eng.sourceforge.net/
 
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The Sheep <sheep@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl>
wrote on Thu, 5 May 2005 06:10:39 +0000 (UTC):
> Dnia Thu, 05 May 2005 03:00:40 +0200,
> Kornel Kisielewicz napisal(a):
>> Heroic Adventure wrote:
>>> WHAT?!?! Download Java? That's x.xx megs... my 2400 baud acoustic
>>> coupler can't possibly handle that load, and how on earth will I save it
>>> to my cassette player? Never mind that it will most likely be incredibly
>>> slow or fast and maybe (or maybe not) buggy on my brand new antiquated
>>> computer that runs MacOSX, 3 Linux Distros, Windows XP, ME and Longhorn
>>> on a quadruple boot virtual machine.
>> If so, boot to linux -- you got Java preinstalled there ;-P
> No, you don't. The licence disallows this.

That's not correct. The license allows the JRE and JDK to be
distributed if they're complete and unmodified--go look at every Java
book with a CDROM in the back, the JDK is on there. DeadRat is insane
with hate for anyone else's IP (they even sabotage xmms with a
deliberately broken mp3 plugin, just to piss off anyone who wants to use
mp3), so they don't distribute it, but sane distros like SuSE and most
others do.

--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"Gibson and I dueled among blazing stacks of books for a while. [...] The
streets were crowded with his black-suited minions and I had to turn into a
swarm of locusts and fly back to Seattle." -Neal Stephenson, /. interview
 
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Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:
> The Sheep <sheep@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl>
> wrote on Thu, 5 May 2005 06:10:39 +0000 (UTC):
>
>>Dnia Thu, 05 May 2005 03:00:40 +0200,
>> Kornel Kisielewicz napisal(a):
>>
>>>Heroic Adventure wrote:
>>>
>>>>WHAT?!?! Download Java? That's x.xx megs... my 2400 baud acoustic
>>>>coupler can't possibly handle that load, and how on earth will I save it
>>>>to my cassette player? Never mind that it will most likely be incredibly
>>>>slow or fast and maybe (or maybe not) buggy on my brand new antiquated
>>>>computer that runs MacOSX, 3 Linux Distros, Windows XP, ME and Longhorn
>>>>on a quadruple boot virtual machine.
>>>
>>>If so, boot to linux -- you got Java preinstalled there ;-P
>>
>>No, you don't. The licence disallows this.
>
> That's not correct. The license allows the JRE and JDK to be
> distributed if they're complete and unmodified--go look at every Java
> book with a CDROM in the back, the JDK is on there. DeadRat is insane
> with hate for anyone else's IP (they even sabotage xmms with a
> deliberately broken mp3 plugin, just to piss off anyone who wants to use
> mp3), so they don't distribute it, but sane distros like SuSE and most
> others do.

DeadRat?

--
http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/germany-1933.htm
Reichstag fire -> 9/11
Communist "arsonist" -> Iraq "weapons of mass destruction"
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
 
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Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Heroic Adventure wrote:
>
>> WHAT?!?! Download Java? That's x.xx megs... my 2400 baud acoustic
>> coupler can't possibly handle that load, and how on earth will I save
>> it to my cassette player? Never mind that it will most likely be
>> incredibly slow or fast and maybe (or maybe not) buggy on my brand new
>> antiquated computer that runs MacOSX, 3 Linux Distros, Windows XP, ME
>> and Longhorn on a quadruple boot virtual machine.
>
> If so, boot to linux -- you got Java preinstalled there ;-P
>
>> heh...
>>
>> Tom... this was not directed at you in any way and it was a lot
>> funnier when I first started typing it. Just poking fun at all the
>> various OS wars resulting from my "hey Try HA!" post... :)
>
> Not exactly valid, y'know...

hehe but I found Heroic's comments funny...

But funnily enough I *did* have java5 already and this
RL wins the prize for easiest set up.

Three clicks,
one to the URL from the post,
one on play now,
one to allow java through my firewall to check for latest
version of the game,
auto download,
I'm playing!!!

This is very low barrier to entry and very good,
of course if I had not had JRE 5 already it would
of been more painful - but I did and a lot of people
do. Of course .NET framework comes with windows
update so it should be more pervasive like this
too, Heroic will just have to wait till 2.0 is
included in windows update for his game to be
this easy to play.

Tom, nice work, indeed simple, some quick comments,
as always - take or leave them, only for feedback
purposes;

* Fast! Java rocks :)
* Needs sound - don't know why but it does!
* Love the keyboard controls *on-screen*, yours
is an excellent example of a really low barrier
to entry game
* Colourful icons, of course you are aware there
is work to go on the images (like that magnified
column!)
* web site could use some work :)

If I get time I'll give it a closer look, nice
work. The ng engine looks interesting, should be
worth a look too. Where can we see source to the simple
game?

--
ABCGi ---- (abcgi@yahoo.com) ---- http://codemonkey.sunsite.dk
Fun RLs in rgrd that I have tested recently!
DoomRL - DwellerMobile - HWorld - AburaTan - DiabloRL
Heroic Adventure - Tower of Doom - Shuruppak - TheTombs
 
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Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:

> The Sheep <sheep@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl>
> wrote on Thu, 5 May 2005 06:10:39 +0000 (UTC):
>> Dnia Thu, 05 May 2005 03:00:40 +0200,
>> Kornel Kisielewicz napisal(a):
>>> Heroic Adventure wrote:
>>>> WHAT?!?! Download Java? That's x.xx megs... my 2400 baud acoustic
>>>> coupler can't possibly handle that load, and how on earth will I save
>>>> it to my cassette player? Never mind that it will most likely be
>>>> incredibly slow or fast and maybe (or maybe not) buggy on my brand new
>>>> antiquated computer that runs MacOSX, 3 Linux Distros, Windows XP, ME
>>>> and Longhorn on a quadruple boot virtual machine.
>>> If so, boot to linux -- you got Java preinstalled there ;-P
>> No, you don't. The licence disallows this.
>
> That's not correct. The license allows the JRE and JDK to be
> distributed if they're complete and unmodified--go look at every Java
> book with a CDROM in the back, the JDK is on there. DeadRat is insane
> with hate for anyone else's IP (they even sabotage xmms with a
> deliberately broken mp3 plugin, just to piss off anyone who wants to use
> mp3), so they don't distribute it, but sane distros like SuSE and most
> others do.

Java licence isn't free so it won't be included out of the box on Mandriva
and Debian. The only way to get a java package for Mandriva would be to buy
one of the more expensive boxed version. And even so, I'm not sure the
included it.

Also, does unmodified mean you can still package it in the current distro
package format ?
 
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Tom Seufert wrote:
> The SimpleGame source is currently included in the Ng distro, which is
> hosted on sourceforge.
>
> https://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=90457 is the
> download page; download ng[version].zip; all SimpleGame classes are in
> the rle.simple package.

Great, thanks, it will be interesting to look at and
compare your engine and game to Hajo's H-World and the
jungle.

> I appreciate the feedback...I agree that even basic "thwacking" sounds
> would add to the gameplay; would be a nice complement to the
> mini-combat-animations. The web site (and the magnified pillar) ARE
> both pretty bad...wish I could say that vast improvements are in the
> works, but I'll be honest instead... ;)

hehe.

> Java does indeed rock, but the API's can be a bit wierd...it was 10x as
> hard to figure out how to implement the text-only display properly than
> it was the tile graphics one...

It has got better implementation wise, my experience just
now was far smoother than it was in the early days of
running a java app - for me at least. And performs better
too.

--
ABCGi ---- (abcgi@yahoo.com) ---- http://codemonkey.sunsite.dk
Fun RLs in rgrd that I have tested recently!
DoomRL - DwellerMobile - HWorld - AburaTan - DiabloRL
Heroic Adventure - Tower of Doom - Shuruppak - TheTombs
 
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U¿ytkownik "Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes" <kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu>
napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
news:slrnd7jsaf.1v82.kamikaze@kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu...
> The Sheep <sheep@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl>
> wrote on Thu, 5 May 2005 06:10:39 +0000 (UTC):
>> Dnia Thu, 05 May 2005 03:00:40 +0200,
>> Kornel Kisielewicz napisal(a):
>>> Heroic Adventure wrote:
>>>> WHAT?!?! Download Java? That's x.xx megs... my 2400 baud
>>>> acoustic
>>>> coupler can't possibly handle that load, and how on earth will I
>>>> save it
>>>> to my cassette player? Never mind that it will most likely be
>>>> incredibly
>>>> slow or fast and maybe (or maybe not) buggy on my brand new
>>>> antiquated
>>>> computer that runs MacOSX, 3 Linux Distros, Windows XP, ME and
>>>> Longhorn
>>>> on a quadruple boot virtual machine.
>>> If so, boot to linux -- you got Java preinstalled there ;-P
>> No, you don't. The licence disallows this.
>
> That's not correct. The license allows the JRE and JDK to be
> distributed if they're complete and unmodified--go look at every
> Java
> book with a CDROM in the back, the JDK is on there.

You are overlooking two important things:
1. Including Java requires a special text (quite long) to be printed
on every copy of any media Java runtime is shipped with. It means that
_if_ you add it to a Linux distribution, the distribution CAN NOT (for
example) be bundled on a cover CD with magazines in a sane way.
2. Including Java in a preinstalled form is strictly forbidden. Not
only you can not add it to live-cds of any kind, you actually can not
distribute an ordinary package containing Java!! Sun's point is to run
each and every end-user through the whole installation process, and
have each and every usetr click "I agree" after reading the licence
(RPMs usually install... the installer script, instead of the runtime)

Bottomline:
1. adding a fully functional Sun's VM to any non-commercial
distribution of Linux is against Sun's license.
2. even adding the installer or an additional package with the
installer in 'extras' puts heavy limitations on distributing the whole
distro, forcing you to put special texts on CDs, adding special
comments to download links, and so on.

> DeadRat is insane
> with hate for anyone else's IP (they even sabotage xmms with a
> deliberately broken mp3 plugin, just to piss off anyone who wants to
> use
> mp3), so they don't distribute it, but sane distros like SuSE and
> most
> others do.

I understand your anger, but don't let it blind you :) free RedHat is
now FC + livna, adding both to your apt-conf allows you to watch DVDs,
play MP3, and do all the other mastahaka l33t stuff.

regards,
Filip
--
Contrary to what some people say, my OS _is_ a lifestyle choice, not a
tool; however, I am against osizm
 
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Timothy Pruett wrote:
>> I want him to stop posting personal attacks against me. If he's got me
>> killfiled, but is continuing to flame me, that's especially unkosher
>> -- he should ignore me completely and not say anything about me
>> whatsoever.
>
> But, unfortunately for you, that's not likely to happen.

I don't take kindly to threats. If he posts an attack against me again
in an irrelevant and off-topic thread, I will report the posting to his
internet service provider. And I will do it again the next time he posts
one. And again the next time. If nothing I am doing can possibly be
provoking him there is zero excuse for his behavior. Do not defend it.

--
http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/germany-1933.htm
Reichstag fire -> 9/11
Communist "arsonist" -> Iraq "weapons of mass destruction"
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
 
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Timothy Pruett wrote:
[snip]

You claim not to sanction his behavior, but persist in trying to
discourage me from doing anything about it. Make up your mind!

--
http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/germany-1933.htm
Reichstag fire -> 9/11
Communist "arsonist" -> Iraq "weapons of mass destruction"
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
 
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Twisted One wrote:
> Timothy Pruett wrote:
> [snip]
>
> You claim not to sanction his behavior, but persist in trying to
> discourage me from doing anything about it. Make up your mind!

Sometimes the best course of action is inaction.


--
"There are of course many problems connected with life, of
which some of the most popular are `Why are people born?'
`Why do they die?' `Why do they spend so much of the
intervening time wearing digital watches?'"

-- The Book.
 
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Christophe Cavalaria <chris.cavalaria@free.fr>
wrote on Thu, 05 May 2005 13:28:49 +0200:
> Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:
>> That's not correct. The license allows the JRE and JDK to be
>> distributed if they're complete and unmodified--go look at every Java
>> book with a CDROM in the back, the JDK is on there. DeadRat is insane
>> with hate for anyone else's IP (they even sabotage xmms with a
>> deliberately broken mp3 plugin, just to piss off anyone who wants to use
>> mp3), so they don't distribute it, but sane distros like SuSE and most
>> others do.
> Java licence isn't free so it won't be included out of the box on Mandriva
> and Debian.

The Java license is free, it just isn't open source or the specific
free license the GPL fanatics are obsessed with. The English language
does not belong to Stallman, he does not get to redefine words with his
own delusional communist fantasy terms.

> The only way to get a java package for Mandriva would be to buy
> one of the more expensive boxed version. And even so, I'm not sure the
> included it.
> Also, does unmodified mean you can still package it in the current distro
> package format ?

You can wrap the bin in your local rpm equivalent.

You still have to go through Sun's installer and agree to the license
terms. Which is an onerous restriction that completely screws everyone
over... Not. It takes a few seconds, and that license is part of why
Java is still a single language instead of Sun-Java, MS-Java, and
GNU-Java (okay, I kid with the last--GNU has never finished any project
to a usable state).

If it's packaged with an application, you can include the entire JVM
installed and ready to use.

--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"Gibson and I dueled among blazing stacks of books for a while. [...] The
streets were crowded with his black-suited minions and I had to turn into a
swarm of locusts and fly back to Seattle." -Neal Stephenson, /. interview
 
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R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On Wed, 04 May 2005 20:47:31 -0400, Heroic Adventure
> <spambucket@heroicadventure.com> wrote:
>
> >Tom Seufert wrote:
> >> Hi all,
> >>
> >> Fairly major SimpleGame release, adding fire-breathing dragons and
more
> >> items, most notably wands to the mix.
> >>
> >> Kick the tires at:
> >>
> >> http://roguelike-eng.sourceforge.net/
> >>
> >> Just click "Play SimpleGame"...if you don't have Java 5.0, get it
at
> >> java.com...
> >>
> >> -Tom
> >>
> >
> >WHAT?!?! Download Java? That's x.xx megs... my 2400 baud acoustic
> >coupler can't possibly handle that load, and how on earth will I
save it
> >to my cassette player? Never mind that it will most likely be
incredibly
> >slow or fast and maybe (or maybe not) buggy on my brand new
antiquated
> >computer that runs MacOSX, 3 Linux Distros, Windows XP, ME and
Longhorn
> >on a quadruple boot virtual machine.
> >
> >heh...
> >
> >Tom... this was not directed at you in any way and it was a lot
funnier
> >when I first started typing it. Just poking fun at all the various
OS
> >wars resulting from my "hey Try HA!" post... :)
>
> If it makes you feel better, I'm ignoring this "SimpleGame" for the
> same extra download reason I'm ignoring HA. Mind you, if he's adding
> fire-breathing dragons and wands, I'm not sure it deserve the name
> "SimpleGame" anymore, anyway.
>
> The thing is, there's *so* many games to try and so little time to
> play them in, that the inconvenience barrier doesn't have to be very
> high to have to me write a game off. If I had nothing to do but
> download and play games, I'd maybe feel very differently.

Now for the mind-twist: Is this a bad thing?

If you make it too easy to install the game, people will casually try
it and discard it at the first *in-game* barrier they encounter. "Oh,
'f' doesn't do fire? Delete!"

On the other hand, if they had to jump through some hoops to get it
running, they are going to want to play it long enough to recoup those
costs. The old sunk-cost problem will come into effect. If you spent
$10 on something, you are more likely to spend another $1 to make it
work than you were to spend $1 if you got it for free (as in cost).

When your roguelike is in its early stages, it requires a patient
person willing to overlook your sharp edges. Those people are likely
to be willing to overcome the installation difficulties. The people
who do not have enough time to install your game likely do not have
enough time to play it either!

At some point your audience will be reduced to just those who like your
game. Having this selection occur *earlier* in the process is better
for all involved than *later*. Getting someone who won't like your
game to download, install, and try to run, just wastes both people's
time & bandwidth.

Demanding a complicated install is putting a barrier at the start: "You
had better be serious about trying out this game, and not planning on
playing for a couple minutes and then complaining that there are no
vi-keys!"
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http://www.zincland.com/powder)
 
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twisted0n3@gmail.invalid wrote:
>Timothy Pruett wrote:
>[snip]
>
>You claim not to sanction his behavior, but persist in trying to
>discourage me from doing anything about it. Make up your mind!

If someone is doing something because it pisses you off, letting them
see that it pisses you off encourages them to keep doing it.

Concealing your pissed-off-ness is much easier to manage on Usenet, of
course, where there is no body language and there's the option of deciding
to not actually send the post where you call your provoker 742 different
obscene names.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
The devil take your stereo and your record collection.
 
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Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:

> Christophe Cavalaria <chris.cavalaria@free.fr>
> wrote on Thu, 05 May 2005 13:28:49 +0200:
>> Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:
>>> That's not correct. The license allows the JRE and JDK to be
>>> distributed if they're complete and unmodified--go look at every Java
>>> book with a CDROM in the back, the JDK is on there. DeadRat is insane
>>> with hate for anyone else's IP (they even sabotage xmms with a
>>> deliberately broken mp3 plugin, just to piss off anyone who wants to use
>>> mp3), so they don't distribute it, but sane distros like SuSE and most
>>> others do.
>> Java licence isn't free so it won't be included out of the box on
>> Mandriva and Debian.
>
> The Java license is free, it just isn't open source or the specific
> free license the GPL fanatics are obsessed with. The English language
> does not belong to Stallman, he does not get to redefine words with his
> own delusional communist fantasy terms.

You are the fanatic here. Sun's Java is not free and I don't about the GPL
fanatics here. It is not free according to the GPL, it is not free
according to the OSI, heck, you can't even package it as you want !

>> The only way to get a java package for Mandriva would be to buy
>> one of the more expensive boxed version. And even so, I'm not sure the
>> included it.
>> Also, does unmodified mean you can still package it in the current distro
>> package format ?
>
> You can wrap the bin in your local rpm equivalent.
>
> You still have to go through Sun's installer and agree to the license
> terms. Which is an onerous restriction that completely screws everyone
> over... Not.

Of course it screws up everyone here ! This is the most stupid restriction
they've placed on it. It means you can't install the JVM without a specific
user intervention. It means no non-interactive installation, a sensless
interuption a one point of the package installation part for the user,
impossible to install a distro with a simple brute Live-CD to HD copy and
of course, impossible to use that in a Live-CD anyway.

> It takes a few seconds, and that license is part of why
> Java is still a single language instead of Sun-Java, MS-Java, and
> GNU-Java (okay, I kid with the last--GNU has never finished any project
> to a usable state).

It takes a looong time it you read the licence agreement as you should and
it's a needless complication that as no technical reason to be, except to
please the corporate "control and screw everything" people at Sun.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:
> The Java license is free, it just isn't open source or the specific
> free license the GPL fanatics are obsessed with. The English language
> does not belong to Stallman, he does not get to redefine words with his
> own delusional communist fantasy terms.

It's encumbered with restrictions, particularly regarding derivative
works. That is what RMS means. RMS is not a communist, either -- he
supports free markets, unencumbered by legal regulations on information
flow in particular. (I.e. copyright, FCC broadcast regs, etc.)

> You still have to go through Sun's installer and agree to the license
> terms. Which is an onerous restriction that completely screws everyone
> over... Not. It takes a few seconds, and that license is part of why
> Java is still a single language instead of Sun-Java, MS-Java, and
> GNU-Java (okay, I kid with the last--GNU has never finished any project
> to a usable state).

gcc is unusable? ;)

A GPL-style license would have ensured that any MS "enhancements" would
have to be returned to the community, and Sun could easily be
compatible, etc. -- I suppose the problem would then be MS breaking the
security model for everyone...hmm

--
http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/germany-1933.htm
Reichstag fire -> 9/11
Communist "arsonist" -> Iraq "weapons of mass destruction"
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
 
G

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Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Martin Read wrote:
> If someone is doing something because it pisses you off, letting them
> see that it pisses you off encourages them to keep doing it.

I thought he'd killfiled me. If he has, then he can't see a damn thing.

> Concealing your pissed-off-ness is much easier to manage on Usenet, of
> course, where there is no body language and there's the option of deciding
> to not actually send the post where you call your provoker 742 different
> obscene names.

742? That's an awfully small number. I'll have to work on it and brush
up on my vocabulary. ;)

--
http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/germany-1933.htm
Reichstag fire -> 9/11
Communist "arsonist" -> Iraq "weapons of mass destruction"
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Christophe Cavalaria <chris.cavalaria@free.fr>
wrote on Fri, 06 May 2005 12:10:36 +0200:
> Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes wrote:
>> Christophe Cavalaria <chris.cavalaria@free.fr>
>> wrote on Thu, 05 May 2005 13:28:49 +0200:
>>> Java licence isn't free so it won't be included out of the box on
>>> Mandriva and Debian.
>> The Java license is free, it just isn't open source or the specific
>> free license the GPL fanatics are obsessed with. The English language
>> does not belong to Stallman, he does not get to redefine words with his
>> own delusional communist fantasy terms.
> You are the fanatic here. Sun's Java is not free and I don't about the GPL
> fanatics here. It is not free according to the GPL, it is not free
> according to the OSI, heck, you can't even package it as you want !

It is free: It costs nothing, and you are permitted to redistribute
it.

It takes a radical loony reinterpretation of the word "free", that no
normal person would ever use, to say that the JRE is not free.

Go describe (in honest, neutral terms!) the conditions of the JRE to
people you know who are not computer geeks, and then ask them if this is
"free" or "not free".

--
<a href="http://kuoi.asui.uidaho.edu/~kamikaze/"> Mark Hughes </a>
"Gibson and I dueled among blazing stacks of books for a while. [...] The
streets were crowded with his black-suited minions and I had to turn into a
swarm of locusts and fly back to Seattle." -Neal Stephenson, /. interview
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> Martin Read wrote:
>
>> If someone is doing something because it pisses you off, letting them
>> see that it pisses you off encourages them to keep doing it.
>
>
> I thought he'd killfiled me. If he has, then he can't see a damn thing.

If he has, then what is the point in responding to his sig? He can't
hear your response anyway, and you'll only succeed in irritating
everyone who hasn't killfiled you.


--
"There are of course many problems connected with life, of
which some of the most popular are `Why are people born?'
`Why do they die?' `Why do they spend so much of the
intervening time wearing digital watches?'"

-- The Book.
 
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