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Power infaltion of characters

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Anonymous
May 8, 2005 10:24:52 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Ok, here goes my though about power inflation. Feel free to add your own
or comment on those already here ;) 

Roguleike games usually need some kind of power inflation. You have to
make the player character become stronger and stronger, and,
symmetrically, you have to give him stronger and stronger opponents, to
maintain his interest and difficulty level.

Why is that? What puprose does it serve?

I believe thre are several puproses, but the main, most important one is
the feeling of achievement, of progress.

It surely gives you much satisfaction when you can kill easily the
monsters that you run from some time ago. But remember that once you get
used to this, the weak monsters become nothing more than annoyance.
There ore other methods of achieving this feeling of becoming strong.

In Z-Day I included several weapons that were seriously overpowered.
The chainsaw, that will instant-kill any zombie that comes close enough,
the molotov coctail that can set on fire whole groups of zombies, etc.
They give you the feeling of being much stronger, but they don't last
long. And since there are time penalties for changing your wepons, you're
likely to use them up in a single burst.

This way, you're left with the feeling of power and exactly the same power
as before.

Such `expiring' powerups can be used to limit the power inflaqtion while
still making it fun.

Another aspect is the progress of the game itself. Strong monsters usually
guard places you shouldn't go at the beginning. Once you play a while and
become stronger, you can go farther, deeper, higher, etc.
It's pretty important in roguelikes, since there's usually not much of
a plot that could give similar feeling of progress.

But still, there are other ways. The Final Fantasy series (and many other
console crpg) used a scheme with various methods of transportation.
You begin your adventure traveling 'per pedes', so most terrain kinds are
impassable for you. You gradually get better means of transport -- mounts,
teleports, boats, flying mounts, flying boats, etc. which extend your
range considerably.

Offcourse, this still needs some kind of progress between you find the
vehicles. But the progress doesn't have to be combat-oriented. Some
simple quests, earning money (to nuy vehicles), gaining skills (to control
vehicles), etc. are always options.

And remember, when equipment uses up or breaks, it will never become much
of `destabilizing factor' in your game.

--
Radomir @**@_ Bee! .**._ .**._ .**._ .**._ zZ
`The Sheep' ('') 3 (..) 3 (..) 3 (..) 3 (--) 3
Dopieralski .vvVvVVVVVvVVVvVVVvVvVVvVvvVvVVVVVVvvVVvvVvvvvVVvVVvv.v.
Anonymous
May 8, 2005 10:24:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

The Sheep wrote:
> Ok, here goes my though about power inflation. Feel free to add your
own
> or comment on those already here ;) 
>
> Roguleike games usually need some kind of power inflation. You have
to
> make the player character become stronger and stronger, and,
> symmetrically, you have to give him stronger and stronger opponents,
to
> maintain his interest and difficulty level.
>
> Why is that? What puprose does it serve?

Game length.

Power Inflation in, for example, *Bands, can be directly attributable
to the really-deep-dungeon. POWDER, with 30 dungeon levels and only 15
dungeon levels of power inflation, has a "boring" end game. Likewise,
Nethack is often critiqued for the "Everything after the Castle is
Boring" precisely because that is where power inflation turns off.

Angband, Diablo, etc, account for this by feeding you ever more
powerful weapons to keep the loot drip going.

> Another aspect is the progress of the game itself. Strong monsters
usually
> guard places you shouldn't go at the beginning. Once you play a while
and
> become stronger, you can go farther, deeper, higher, etc.
> It's pretty important in roguelikes, since there's usually not much
of
> a plot that could give similar feeling of progress.
>
> But still, there are other ways. The Final Fantasy series (and many
other
> console crpg) used a scheme with various methods of transportation.
> You begin your adventure traveling 'per pedes', so most terrain kinds
are
> impassable for you. You gradually get better means of transport --
mounts,
> teleports, boats, flying mounts, flying boats, etc. which extend your
> range considerably.

The Final Fantasy approach also has another dimension. One can make
the game more episodic. Rather than putting Big Monsters or Impassable
Terrain to limit the action, merely limit the action.

Reduce the size of your dungeon to what your power inflation *does*
support and end the game there. If you want a longer game, add
additional episodes to be played afterwards. Discount the holy-grail
of replayability. Not every roguelike should be the next Nethack that
takes 3 years to master.

This was one of my design goals for You Only Live Once
(http://www.zincland.com/7drl/liveonce) (I think it isn't surprising
that Z-Day, which you mention for alternative approaches to power
inflation, and You Only Live Once, are both Seven Day Roguelikes...).
I wanted a game you could play, enjoy, and discard. If one were to
write a larger story, it could be done with a chain of such adventures.
If each one is short enough, the need for "power inflation" could be
avoided - learning the behaviour and skills of each mini-adventure
would provide sufficient interest.

You Only Live Once features absolutely no character advancement at all.
You can't even upgrade your weapons, or heal your damage. Yet, IMHO,
it can provide an enjoyable afternoons play.
--
Jeff Lait
(POWDER: http;//www.zincland.com/powder)
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 5:32:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

The Sheep wrote:
> Ok, here goes my though about power inflation. Feel free to add your
own
> or comment on those already here ;) 
>
> Roguleike games usually need some kind of power inflation. You have
to
> make the player character become stronger and stronger, and,
> symmetrically, you have to give him stronger and stronger opponents,
to
> maintain his interest and difficulty level.
>
> Why is that? What puprose does it serve?
>
> I believe thre are several puproses, but the main, most important one
is
> the feeling of achievement, of progress.
>
> It surely gives you much satisfaction when you can kill easily the
> monsters that you run from some time ago. But remember that once you
get
> used to this, the weak monsters become nothing more than annoyance.
> There ore other methods of achieving this feeling of becoming strong.
>
> In Z-Day I included several weapons that were seriously overpowered.
> The chainsaw, that will instant-kill any zombie that comes close
enough,
> the molotov coctail that can set on fire whole groups of zombies,
etc.
> They give you the feeling of being much stronger, but they don't last
> long. And since there are time penalties for changing your wepons,
you're
> likely to use them up in a single burst.
>
> This way, you're left with the feeling of power and exactly the same
power
> as before.
>
> Such `expiring' powerups can be used to limit the power inflaqtion
while
> still making it fun.
>
> Another aspect is the progress of the game itself. Strong monsters
usually
> guard places you shouldn't go at the beginning. Once you play a while
and
> become stronger, you can go farther, deeper, higher, etc.
> It's pretty important in roguelikes, since there's usually not much
of
> a plot that could give similar feeling of progress.

Yeah, I've been wondering about this for some time. When I started
playing nethack it struck me that you enter the dungeon with an
unexperienced character, and after a while you're a demi-god with 20x
more hit points, skills, etc.
It would be impossible in real life.
Is it possible for the "power inflating" to depend only, or almost
only, on other stuff, like equipment, knowledge, etc.?
Can there be a roguelike where you have constant number of hit points
throughout the whole game?
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 1:16:10 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

The Sheep <sheep@atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl> wrote:

> Ok, here goes my though about power inflation. Feel free to add your own
> or comment on those already here ;) 

> Roguleike games usually need some kind of power inflation. You have to
> make the player character become stronger and stronger, and,
> symmetrically, you have to give him stronger and stronger opponents, to
> maintain his interest and difficulty level.

> Why is that? What puprose does it serve?

> I believe thre are several puproses, but the main, most important one is
> the feeling of achievement, of progress.

> It surely gives you much satisfaction when you can kill easily the
> monsters that you run from some time ago. But remember that once you get
> used to this, the weak monsters become nothing more than annoyance.
> There ore other methods of achieving this feeling of becoming strong.

I've thought a bit about power inflation myself. For Shuruppak, I've
made the following three decisions to counter it:

a. equipment matters

The initial attributes of the PC won't change much during a game of
Shuruppak. There won't be experience levels, and the only way to increase
your strength score or your hit points will be through magical means, which
will still be very rare. Player advancement is primarily the result of
finding better equipment.

This has the advantage of avoiding ridiculous hit point inflations. It
will probably make balancing easier, because I've to compare relative
opponent strength only against expected equipment strength, not against
expected character advancement.

b. damage hurts

Even if you improve your equipment and thus can deal out more damage and
avoid getting hit better, you'll still take damage over the time of the
game. Shuruppak has two measures for damage: hit points (HP) and defence
points (DP) (I'm still in search of better terminology, though). You start
out with 10 HPs. Maximum DP is calculated as 5 * HP. Decreases to HP are
permanent, while DP is restored quite quickly (about 1 point per turn). If
you're receiving damage, first your DPs are decreased. Then, if they reach
zero, your HPs are decreased and your max DP value is set to the 5 * (new
HP).

In this way, the PC will arrive physically weakened at more difficult
levels. Even though the equipment is better, risking an injury becomes more
dangerous later in the game.

c. time counts

As you will only spend a limited time on a level, it's quite unlikely that
there will be much opportunity for traditional scumming methods. I expect
players to more often than not leave a level without having explored it
fully; yet, as equipment matters, a pure ironman approach (run for the
stairs as soon as you reach them) will leave the PC quite badly equipped for
later levels. The players will have to decide how far they want to explore,
but if they spend too much time exploring, they will risk drowning, which
may kill the PC or inflict permanent damage. Given the limited amount of HP,
time will always be an opponent stronger than the PC, and consequently, the
player will never reach a point where nothing in the game may stop the way
to victory. That's the plan, at least.

> In Z-Day I included several weapons that were seriously overpowered.
> [ ... ] They give you the feeling of being much stronger, but they don't
> last long. And since there are time penalties for changing your wepons,
> you're likely to use them up in a single burst. [ ... ] Such `expiring'
> powerups can be used to limit the power inflaqtion while still making it
> fun.

Does 'expiring' mean that you'll have to use up your molotov cocktail,
even if it will take time to switch to that weapon, or it will disappear?
This would be an interesting idea to enforce the use of these overpowered
yet unwieldy weapons. Otherwise players may save these weapons for real
emergencies, which may lead to a backpack full of unused equipment.

[ ... ]

Cheers, Gero

--
Gero Kunter (gero.kunter@epost.de)
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 1:37:38 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Dnia Mon, 9 May 2005 09:16:10 +0000 (UTC),
Gero Kunter napisal(a):

> I've thought a bit about power inflation myself. For Shuruppak, I've
> made the following three decisions to counter it:

> a. equipment matters

> The initial attributes of the PC won't change much during a game of
> Shuruppak. There won't be experience levels, and the only way to increase
> your strength score or your hit points will be through magical means, which
> will still be very rare. Player advancement is primarily the result of
> finding better equipment.

Doesn't it make most of the items useless?
Ie., after you find the first 'long sword', you don't need any long
swords, or weapons that are weaker than long sword anymore.

Seems like it could be safely replaced with `weapon bonus' system. ;) 

> In this way, the PC will arrive physically weakened at more difficult
> levels. Even though the equipment is better, risking an injury becomes more
> dangerous later in the game.

It's similar to the power bursts I described, only the other way around :) 

> c. time counts

> As you will only spend a limited time on a level, it's quite unlikely that
> there will be much opportunity for traditional scumming methods. I expect
> players to more often than not leave a level without having explored it
> fully; yet, as equipment matters, a pure ironman approach (run for the
> stairs as soon as you reach them) will leave the PC quite badly equipped for
> later levels. The players will have to decide how far they want to explore,
> but if they spend too much time exploring, they will risk drowning, which
> may kill the PC or inflict permanent damage. Given the limited amount of HP,
> time will always be an opponent stronger than the PC, and consequently, the
> player will never reach a point where nothing in the game may stop the way
> to victory. That's the plan, at least.

Yes, it certainly gives you some kind of sense of progress.
But while playing your game it gave me the sense of weakness, hopelesness,
and was genereally pretty frustrating. Just my opinion -- it may vary.

I think that some power inflation is important. You can't just remove it,
or the players will complain. On the other hand, there are several things
you can use *instead* to give the players what they like and still come
out with reasonably powered characters.

Note also that you can't power up monsters if you don;t power up player
character. Or you can, if you want to increase the difficulty level
rapidly or turn your game into a gamble.

>> In Z-Day I included several weapons that were seriously overpowered.
>> [ ... ] They give you the feeling of being much stronger, but they don't
>> last long. And since there are time penalties for changing your wepons,
>> you're likely to use them up in a single burst. [ ... ] Such `expiring'
>> powerups can be used to limit the power inflaqtion while still making it
>> fun.

> Does 'expiring' mean that you'll have to use up your molotov cocktail,
> even if it will take time to switch to that weapon, or it will disappear?

No, it means that anything you use will eventually run out of ammo/fuel or
break, so it's worthwile to have a spare in your backpack.
Plus, even the `weak' weapons have their use in case of emergency.

> This would be an interesting idea to enforce the use of these overpowered
> yet unwieldy weapons. Otherwise players may save these weapons for real
> emergencies, which may lead to a backpack full of unused equipment.

The backpack size is limited, so while the players may save some equipment
for their hard times, they have to do it wisely.

I for example use up the weapons that are unwieldy/worse when it's
relatively safe (ie. the zombies are far away), then switch to my favorite
weapons for exploring.

--
Radomir @**@_ Bee! .**._ .**._ .**._ .**._ zZ
`The Sheep' ('') 3 (..) 3 (..) 3 (..) 3 (--) 3
Dopieralski .vvVvVVVVVvVVVvVVVvVvVVvVvvVvVVVVVVvvVVvvVvvvvVVvVVvv.v.
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 6:40:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

The Sheep wrote:
> This way, you're left with the feeling of power and exactly the same power
> as before.

I believe DoomRL is an example of really slight power inflation. True
power in DoomRL comes from the items, not the stats (although some
traits help).

As for other projects I wondered about it a lot. GenRogue will be
realistical, and I plan to avoid powerlevelling completely there.
Remember? I once wrote an article about powerlevelling, it adressed some
of the topics you've mentioned...

> Such `expiring' powerups can be used to limit the power inflaqtion while
> still making it fun.

Like the Inv-globe, Supercharge, and Phase device in DoomRL. Actually
almost every item in DoomRL is expiring -- Armors have durability,
weapons have ammo...

> Another aspect is the progress of the game itself. Strong monsters usually
> guard places you shouldn't go at the beginning. Once you play a while and
> become stronger, you can go farther, deeper, higher, etc.
> It's pretty important in roguelikes, since there's usually not much of
> a plot that could give similar feeling of progress.

This is easy in a game that has such a linear progress as DoomRL ;-).

--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
My opinions are my own. Share them at your own risk.
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 6:40:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Mon, 09 May 2005 14:40:22 +0200, Kornel Kisielewicz
<kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote:

>The Sheep wrote:
>> This way, you're left with the feeling of power and exactly the same power
>> as before.
>
>I believe DoomRL is an example of really slight power inflation. True
>power in DoomRL comes from the items, not the stats (although some
>traits help).

And equipment. You get a *big* boost from equipment. I wouldn't want
to take on the C with nothing but my starting pistol.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Idiot boy, when are you going to post something useful?
Or better yet, get a job and stop being a welfare bum?
Dance, Puppet, dance!
Anonymous
May 9, 2005 10:17:19 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I think leveling up serves almost no purpose at all.You get 2x stronger,
monsters get 2x stronger.... so what ?

I think new challanges should come from tricky stuff, not just tougher
monsters. Monsters with new abilities, not just more hp.

Monsters which can shoot, scream for help, cast spells, stay close to each
other, this kind of thing.

There's so much that can be improved.

######
...@12#
####.#
####M#
####.#

I hope it won't get displayed wrong. In example above, M stands for monster.
1 and 2 are floor squares, numbered just for easier reference.

So there's a monster coming from around the corner. In most RL games it will
step onto square 1. It's fine if it's melee monsters, because the path is
shorter this way. But this shouldn't happen if M is ranged, because ranged
monsters want to keep distance.

#####
MMM1#
###@#
###.#

In example above, there are monsters, PC, and a corner. 1 is just a square.
Smart players can use corners to their advantage, especially if the
monsters include ranged ones. You fight only one monster at a time.
In theory, if a monster moved to square 1, there could be 2 attacking @ at a
time.

Or classic example with monster running away from player. They tend to run
into a corner in many games (not in Crawl I think, I'm new to Crawl so I'm
not 100% sure), not into corridor.

I have a dream about developing a roguelike game with almost no leveling up.
Most of the challange would come from new monster abilities/more
monsters/more hostile environments (pools of lava + flyers/shooters, this
kind of thing).
Player would "level up" mostly by gaining access to new interesting
items/abilites, and they would be limited. You'd have to manage scrolls of
teleport/swap positions/etc.
But my coding skills are barely good to get me through my university (at the
moment) so I have a long way to go. Wish me luck...please.

B0rsuk
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 6:25:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

B0rsuk wrote:
*SNIP*
> ######
> ..@12#
> ####.#
> ####M#
> ####.#

######
...M12#
####.#
####@#
####.#

> I hope it won't get displayed wrong. In example above, M stands for monster.
> 1 and 2 are floor squares, numbered just for easier reference.
>
> So there's a monster coming from around the corner. In most RL games it will
> step onto square 1. It's fine if it's melee monsters, because the path is
> shorter this way. But this shouldn't happen if M is ranged, because ranged
> monsters want to keep distance.
*SNIP*

--
ABCGi ---- (abcgi@yahoo.com) ---- http://codemonkey.sunsite.dk
Fun RLs in rgrd that I have tested recently!
DoomRL - DwellerMobile - HWorld - AburaTan - DiabloRL
Heroic Adventure - Powder - Shuruppak - TheTombs
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 6:40:46 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

R. Dan Henry wrote:
> On Mon, 09 May 2005 14:40:22 +0200, Kornel Kisielewicz
> <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote:
>>The Sheep wrote:
>>
>>>This way, you're left with the feeling of power and exactly the same power
>>>as before.
>>
>>I believe DoomRL is an example of really slight power inflation. True
>>power in DoomRL comes from the items, not the stats (although some
>>traits help).
>
>
> And equipment. You get a *big* boost from equipment. I wouldn't want
> to take on the C with nothing but my starting pistol.

Uh, I meant equipment ;-)
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"Gott weiss, Ich will kein Engel sein..." -- Rammstein /Engel/
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 6:40:47 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Tue, 10 May 2005 02:40:46 +0200, Kornel Kisielewicz
<kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote:

>R. Dan Henry wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 May 2005 14:40:22 +0200, Kornel Kisielewicz
>> <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote:
>>>The Sheep wrote:
>>>
>>>>This way, you're left with the feeling of power and exactly the same power
>>>>as before.
>>>
>>>I believe DoomRL is an example of really slight power inflation. True
>>>power in DoomRL comes from the items, not the stats (although some
>>>traits help).
>>
>>
>> And equipment. You get a *big* boost from equipment. I wouldn't want
>> to take on the C with nothing but my starting pistol.
>
>Uh, I meant equipment ;-)

Sorry, you wrote correctly. I misread it.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Idiot boy, when are you going to post something useful?
Or better yet, get a job and stop being a welfare bum?
Dance, Puppet, dance!
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 6:44:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

*snip*
> Even if you improve your equipment and thus can deal out more damage and
> avoid getting hit better, you'll still take damage over the time of the
> game. Shuruppak has two measures for damage: hit points (HP) and defence
> points (DP) (I'm still in search of better terminology, though). You start
> out with 10 HPs. Maximum DP is calculated as 5 * HP. Decreases to HP are
> permanent, while DP is restored quite quickly (about 1 point per turn). If
> you're receiving damage, first your DPs are decreased. Then, if they reach
> zero, your HPs are decreased and your max DP value is set to the 5 * (new
> HP).
*snip*

Suggestions for a better name:

* Stamina Points (SP)
My favorite, works for all genres.

* Energy Points (EP)
Works for modern genre, fantasy and sci-fi can be confused with
magic-related energy or technology-related energy, respectively.

* Vitality Points (VP)
Works for most genres, but to me Stamina conveys better the idea of energy
being spent in by dodging and defending yourself.

Oh, and by the way, you should not make damage to HP permanent. Maybe very
slow to heal (days, weeks), or very difficult (expensive), etc. But
definitely not permanent. Wound permanency is an undesirable feature of real
life that I do not want to experience in a videogame. A good balance of
realism vs. fun would be to just have them take a long, long time to heal
(perhaps if they go too low they do permanent/temporary stat damage? Such as
to Charisma if on the face or Speed/Agility/Dexterity if on the legs,
Strength if on the arms, etc.)).

-- Nolithius
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 8:27:01 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Jeff Lait wrote:
> Angband, Diablo, etc, account for this by feeding you ever more
> powerful weapons to keep the loot drip going.

Angband has power inflation stop when you reach about 2/3 of the way
down the dungeon. Then it's just scumming for endgame kit and
consumables, and killing off the unique monsters. People often find that
last third boring. (OAngband still has player power inflation stop at
about the 2/3 mark, but danger inflation doesn't -- the last 1/3 aren't
boring, they're scary and nearly unsurvivable, despite which I got a
noncheating winner once.)

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 8:36:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

R. Dan Henry wrote:
[same thing again]

Your SNR really blows lately.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 12:48:23 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Nolithius <Nolithius@hotmail.com> wrote:
[ snip suggestions for better hit point terminology ]
> Oh, and by the way, you should not make damage to HP permanent. Maybe very
> slow to heal (days, weeks),

But my game is intended to be short, both in real as well as in game time.
I don't want the length of one winning game to be much longer than, say, two
hours, the time you'd need for exploring about twenty levels, without a
possiblity to backtrack.

> or very difficult (expensive), etc. But definitely not permanent. Wound
> permanency is an undesirable feature of real life that I do not want to
> experience in a videogame.

The decision for permanent damage (note that not all hits cause
immediately a permanent decrease, because the PC has a second, quickly
recovering stat) was not on the basis of realism -- I've long passed the
stage where I thought realism was always good! :) 

As the exploration time for each level is limited in my game, waiting for
recovery just is no option. I've already thought about introducing a very
slow recovery rate myself, but it would be so slow as to be nothing the
player may rely on.

Maybe you've played the first person stealth game Thief? The character in
the game is armed with a sword and capable of taking out some opponents by
sheer force, but in the long run he will just run out of hit points and die
unless more subtle tactics are applied.

A playing style similar to this is something I strive at for my game. Some
basic stealth techniques are already implemented in my game (limited
visibility, propagation of sounds), so evading a direct confrontation should
at least be a possible choice for the player. I also want combat to be much
more tactical than a typical whack-till-it-dies approach. The player should
decide well ahead whether a fight is worth picking up. Encounters should be
dangerous, really dangerous if you and your opponent are of about the same
strength. Hit points (stamina points) should be a very, very valuable
resource. A resource the player should really care for, and make decisions
to preserve them in the best possible way.

Cheers, Gero

--
Gero Kunter (gero.kunter@epost.de)
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 2:40:48 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Tue, 10 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:

> Screw you.

Paul, he's not going to come out and play with you, so stop asking.
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 2:41:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Tue, 10 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:

> Your SNR really blows lately.

Says the man approaching infinity.
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 3:13:49 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

[...]
> But my game is intended to be short, both in real as well as in game
time.
> I don't want the length of one winning game to be much longer than, say,
two
> hours, the time you'd need for exploring about twenty levels, without a
> possiblity to backtrack.
[...]

Oh, ok, in this context that might work well. I was thinking it was a long
RL, in which case it would be painful ;o)

--Nolithius
Anonymous
May 10, 2005 4:59:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Nolithius wrote:
> *snip*
>
>> Even if you improve your equipment and thus can deal out more damage and
>>avoid getting hit better, you'll still take damage over the time of the
>>game. Shuruppak has two measures for damage: hit points (HP) and defence
>>points (DP) (I'm still in search of better terminology, though). You start
>>out with 10 HPs. Maximum DP is calculated as 5 * HP. Decreases to HP are
>>permanent, while DP is restored quite quickly (about 1 point per turn). If
>>you're receiving damage, first your DPs are decreased. Then, if they reach
>>zero, your HPs are decreased and your max DP value is set to the 5 * (new
>>HP).
>
> *snip*
>
> Suggestions for a better name:
>
> * Stamina Points (SP)
> My favorite, works for all genres.
>
> * Energy Points (EP)
> Works for modern genre, fantasy and sci-fi can be confused with
> magic-related energy or technology-related energy, respectively.
>
> * Vitality Points (VP)
> Works for most genres, but to me Stamina conveys better the idea of energy
> being spent in by dodging and defending yourself.
>
> Oh, and by the way, you should not make damage to HP permanent. Maybe very
> slow to heal (days, weeks), or very difficult (expensive), etc. But
> definitely not permanent. Wound permanency is an undesirable feature of real
> life that I do not want to experience in a videogame. A good balance of
> realism vs. fun would be to just have them take a long, long time to heal
> (perhaps if they go too low they do permanent/temporary stat damage? Such as
> to Charisma if on the face or Speed/Agility/Dexterity if on the legs,
> Strength if on the arms, etc.)).

This is not true of all RLs - for instance Dweller
mobile works very well without hit point recovery
thank you very much!

--
ABCGi ---- (abcgi@yahoo.com) ---- http://codemonkey.sunsite.dk
Fun RLs in rgrd that I have tested recently!
DoomRL - DwellerMobile - HWorld - AburaTan - DiabloRL
Heroic Adventure - Powder - Shuruppak - TheTombs
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 3:21:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

My least favorite stalker wrote:
[snip lies and deceit]

Please go away.

And since nobody is listening to you anymore so I don't need to keep
much of an eye on you anymore to see what lies you're telling people
about me...

*PLONK*

Thank you and goodnight.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 4:01:56 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Tue, 10 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:

> Please go away.

Go west, young man.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 11:41:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

> <snip stupid trolling by Twisted One's Mother>
>
> He can't hear you, moron. Now you have no valid excuse for the
> trolling, because your target finally killfiled your ass.
>
> By the way, two thumbs up Neo, on a job well done. Now only if you
> stopped replying to R. Dan Henry's sig, rgrd would be perfect... ;-)

I would much prefer the sig to go away.
It's only defence is that it states Idiot Boy,
to which somehow Neo is inclined to respond to ;) 

Cheers,
T.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 2:08:53 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Twisted One's Mother wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
>
>> And since nobody is listening to you anymore so I don't need to keep
>> much of an eye on you anymore to see what lies you're telling people
>> about me...

<snip stupid trolling by Twisted One's Mother>

He can't hear you, moron. Now you have no valid excuse for the
trolling, because your target finally killfiled your ass.

By the way, two thumbs up Neo, on a job well done. Now only if you
stopped replying to R. Dan Henry's sig, rgrd would be perfect... ;-)


--
"There are of course many problems connected with life, of
which some of the most popular are `Why are people born?'
`Why do they die?' `Why do they spend so much of the
intervening time wearing digital watches?'"

-- The Book.
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 8:33:55 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Twisted One wrote:
> My least favorite stalker wrote:
> [snip lies and deceit]
>
> Please go away.
>
> And since nobody is listening to you anymore so I don't need to keep
> much of an eye on you anymore to see what lies you're telling people
> about me...
>
> *PLONK*

Are you serious? :-D
Congratulations Twisted One, I for one believed you would finally do
that :-D.
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"Well, the philosophy of the World of Shadows is based on most of the
degenerate, immoral and foremost amoral philosophical beliefs of our
world exagarated to the maximum." --Anubis
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 8:36:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Some stupid spammer wrote:
>
> On Tue, 10 May 2005, Twisted One wrote:
>
>> And since nobody is listening to you anymore so I don't need to keep
>> much of an eye on you anymore to see what lies you're telling people
>> about me...
[snip hideous trolling of TOm]

Well, as Twisted One finally killfiled you, and proved you are immature
that way (yes, I treat that as final proof), then I'll do what I always
wanted to do (but nobody never really annoyed me that way...):

*PLONK*

Oh, and GFAG
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"Well, the philosophy of the World of Shadows is based on most of the
degenerate, immoral and foremost amoral philosophical beliefs of our
world exagarated to the maximum." --Anubis
Anonymous
May 11, 2005 8:47:33 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

konijn_ wrote:
>><snip stupid trolling by Twisted One's Mother>
>>
>>He can't hear you, moron. Now you have no valid excuse for the
>>trolling, because your target finally killfiled your ass.
>>
>>By the way, two thumbs up Neo, on a job well done. Now only if you
>>stopped replying to R. Dan Henry's sig, rgrd would be perfect... ;-)
>
> I would much prefer the sig to go away.

I second that.
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"Invalid thought detected. Close all mental processes and
restart body."
!