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Chicken and Egg Problem of World Generation

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Anonymous
May 15, 2005 2:25:30 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I was wondering how everyone is going about creating a random world.
I'm sure we all have different methods. In my own I'm struggling over
the order of generation.

I think it's very simple to generate random geography then define a few
cities but shouldn't the city itself be defined by the people who are
there already? Or should the city be defined first and then the people
placed in it?

I know the best solution is probably some kind of feedback between a
people generator and a city generator but before I get too bogged down
in technical details I'd like to hear how other people are doing
things. (I'd like to hear absolutely anything but specifically the
phases - how have you broken the problem down?)

How complicated is your geography generation, how do you choose where
to put cities, do cities alter the geography around them - for instance
if you create a water wheel do you then create a river for this and
have it link up into the world? Do you have timeline for your
generation? Stuff like that :D 

I'm interested what schemes people are currently using.
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 4:01:28 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I'm curious what point 3 "age the world" entails here. It sounds like a
pretty big step!

Do you have an intial couple and the generate world population and city
growth from them? I guess you could work out possibly migration
patterns for each of the offspring once a a particular area becomes
uncomfotably crowded. (above some given a threshold for a given
landtype)

Do you have cities that prosper and ones that are abandoned?
I guess this would be useful for dungeons of ruins.

I think aging the world would be more complicated with many different
races as surely they are going to influence one another and it's going
to be a lot more interesting if some races are older and more
widespread - why doesn't the younger race (such as humans) just die
off?

Also advancing in technology - I assume as in most rogue likes you
working with a medival style setting. Do you have a set technology tree
that your people follow? Is it possible to come across small
cavemen-like tribes?

All interesting ideas and good to hear.
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 6:26:06 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Balaam wrote:
> How complicated is your geography generation, how do you choose where
> to put cities, do cities alter the geography around them - for instance
> if you create a water wheel do you then create a river for this and
> have it link up into the world? Do you have timeline for your
> generation? Stuff like that :D 

Cities should be sited on rivers and especially where rivers meet each
other, lakes, or the sea anyway, with the exception of a smattering in
deserts located above aquifers, if your city placement is meant to be
realistic, anyway.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Related resources
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 8:06:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Balaam wrote:
> I'm curious what point 3 "age the world" entails here. It sounds like
a
> pretty big step!

Sounds like a complicated step, too. I recommend to start simple:) 
I wonder if any dynamic stuff is really needed here. It's probably
much easier to build a static setting for a city. Beginning from the
type of the city. The steps should be made from simple to complex,
beginning from the landscape, then from main buildings which should
always exist and then less important "gap fill" buildings etc..
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 8:31:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Static is easier but I'd quite like my game to be able to suprise me,
the creator. I'd like a different "world" everytime!

I'm currently using a Grammar (sometimes these are called rewrite rules
in computer-game-programming lingo? i'm not sure). It has it's draw
backs and I need to experiment more with it before I'm satisfied it's
the correct way to do things.

It's basically a plan like:

[SmallVillage] -> Name [PoorHousing] [Granary] [Graveyard]
[SmallVillage] -> Name [PoorHousing] [RichHouse] [RiceField]
[SmallVillage] -> "Haunted Village" [Ghosthouses] [GhostlyManor]

Everything in the square brackets has another definition elsewhere in
the grammar. Eventually the grammar resolves itself into a list of
preset pieces or function calls that may add more randomness. The
drawback of this grammar is that there is no control over placement. I
have a few ideas to expand upon it though.

So each time small village is called - one of the above three is
called. They can also be give weight to see which is more likely. Each
piece of the village may also be defined in multiple ways. Its quite a
cool system because its not too hard to expand.

It could be interesting to start with the cities and then build the
world around them. If it's already known where the player will start
this could be used for balancing too. (you don't want your starting
city encircled with mountains that the player cannot climb until he
gets a skill many levels away)
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 9:30:59 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Balaam wrote:
> Static is easier but I'd quite like my game to be able to suprise me,
> the creator. I'd like a different "world" everytime!

I didn't mean "static" quite like that:)  Of course the map is random
everytime, but it's just the matter of how detailed background rules
are required to create a place that seems to be "realistic".
Some people begin with atoms: "..and then there was atoms, and they
began to gather in bigger things.."
The player doesn't know how the world was built, but if it's good
enough then it's playable.
The "static" I was referring was that the world doesn't change when
it's created, or it doesn't have any background or history which
made it what it is now.

> It could be interesting to start with the cities and then build the
> world around them.

You can try that and then see what went wrong:) 
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 7:41:09 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I'm guessing this is your answer rather than suggested instruction for
me?

Otherwise I would have:

1. Finish a non-random simple game and lead a bitter unfullfilled life
that enters into a spiral of decline because I was never able to do
what I wanted and had to follow the general crowd of developers.
Drinking and drugs soon follow. Three maybe four years later I'm on the
street in a gutter and it's winter, my dreams shattered - is that what
you want?

2. Happily work on the game I like. With the new sense of achievment
and happiness an inner confidence grows stronger and stronger until one
thursday night I manage to solve the North Korea problem with a
solution satisfactory to all concerned. Shortly after a new world
government is formed based on the happiness brought by the playing of
my game. The human race expands through the universe bringing peace and
light to everywhere it visits.

And all I'm asking for is people who share my interest to share a
little bit of their dreams. A little bit of brightness to the world -
that's all! I think the most exciting rogue-likes are the ones that add
something new or complicated.

Anyhoo enough ranting :D 
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 8:53:17 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

"Balaam" <balaam@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1116134730.544263.191490@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>I was wondering how everyone is going about creating a random world.
> I'm sure we all have different methods. In my own I'm struggling over
> the order of generation.
>
> I think it's very simple to generate random geography then define a few
> cities but shouldn't the city itself be defined by the people who are
> there already? Or should the city be defined first and then the people
> placed in it?
>
> I know the best solution is probably some kind of feedback between a
> people generator and a city generator but before I get too bogged down
> in technical details I'd like to hear how other people are doing
> things. (I'd like to hear absolutely anything but specifically the
> phases - how have you broken the problem down?)
>
> How complicated is your geography generation, how do you choose where
> to put cities, do cities alter the geography around them - for instance
> if you create a water wheel do you then create a river for this and
> have it link up into the world? Do you have timeline for your
> generation? Stuff like that :D 
>
> I'm interested what schemes people are currently using.
>

Well, as a probably-useless overview:

1. Generate terrain (using fractals and original adhoc techniques).
2. Generate ``camps''.
3. Age the world.

The aging process is that required feedback stage you refer to, where the
people in each city (initially a Rex and Regina) breed and advance in tech.
That way you get bakers, blacksmiths, farmers, etc.

When that's all said and done I place the dungeons where there are small
numbers of people, and then generate the underworld in the same way (but
using the dungeons as underworld cities).

--
Glen
L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 9:17:31 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

"Balaam" <balaam@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1116140488.095380.48620@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> I'm curious what point 3 "age the world" entails here. It sounds like a
> pretty big step!
>

Well, it is, but it's just as big as trying to create an interesting
random world right off the bat :) .

> Do you have an intial couple and the generate world population and city
> growth from them? I guess you could work out possibly migration
> patterns for each of the offspring once a a particular area becomes
> uncomfotably crowded. (above some given a threshold for a given
> landtype)
>

Well, I have a large number of occupations and what a town needs to have
before it can have people doing that job. Also a bunch of reproduction
rates and various other parameters, seasons affect things like how efficient
people are at their jobs (depending on job etc). That's also how geography
affects things. If there is desert around, yet a river, then there can be
fishermen (people need to eat). If there was a bit of fertile farmland, but
the crops are out of season (say it is winter) then the people might build a
road to a nearby river. Or one of many other possibilities.

> Do you have cities that prosper and ones that are abandoned?
> I guess this would be useful for dungeons of ruins.
>

It's not *that* complicated. People only die if they starve to death, and
even then it's more like the population just ``decreases''. Ruins are
simulated by the fact that sometimes the people from a faltering village
(say one high in the mountains) will migrate to a bigger city in a better
geographical location. The Rex and Regina will never leave their village
however, unless it is taken over by some other species. They also don't
need to eat and will continue to produce new people. If there is a village
with only those two special people in it at the end of generation then it
becomes a ghost-twon (well, one of many different types of ghost-towns
depending on geopgraphy) and the two people are replaced by one or more
archetypes (say a crazy old hermit) to give it some flavour.

> I think aging the world would be more complicated with many different
> races as surely they are going to influence one another and it's going
> to be a lot more interesting if some races are older and more
> widespread - why doesn't the younger race (such as humans) just die
> off?
>

I try to avoid that by not having old and new races, just different races.
There is a kind of artificial evolution: as a settlement increases in size
it gains a status increase: from hamlet->village->town->city->metropolis.
With each increase the people who are there at that time and any descendents
they have will be a little bit different depending on which occupations are
most prevalent among the populace. Say, for example, that there is a hamlet
going to village and the only jobs people have are fishermen. Then everyone
in the hamlet (now village) is genetically predisposed to be a good
fishermen. In game terms this means that they will gain traits that let
them do their job well; again in this case it is an affinity for sea
critters, a way of detecting where they are, good ability to swin etc.
Looking at the code for it now, if you go all the way from
hamlet->metropolis and gain the fishing trait every time then the people
become mer-people and ``sink'' their city (creating a type of Atlantis).
This is how ``dwarves'' and ``elves'' and other such stereotypical races are
used in my game. But don't get me wrong, they definitely are not older or
younger than eachother.

> Also advancing in technology - I assume as in most rogue likes you
> working with a medival style setting. Do you have a set technology tree
> that your people follow? Is it possible to come across small
> cavemen-like tribes?
>

Well, some of the people will get religious types who will want to write
down various things, giving way to scholars and monks who can then start an
education system. But as far as a tech tree goes, it's not really that
complicated. I leave it mostly at the job system. As an example you have
the serf job who requires a free citizen, at least three farmers and at
least three other working citizens. The serf job increasing the
organisation of the settlement (from the Rex and Regina) and also allows the
people to do a little bit more expansion. Serfs are a direct requirement
for the job of Knight, Ringmaster and Baron.

Yes, the word Serf does not mean those things. But it does in my game :) .

> All interesting ideas and good to hear.
>

Thanks. Keep in mind that these things sound hard until you code them and
realise that it just sorta works. You only need a world which will be
interesting to the player and allow them to have fun with the people in it
:) .

--
Glen
L:p yt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
Anonymous
May 15, 2005 11:42:34 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Balaam wrote:
> I'm interested what schemes people are currently using.

Simple answer : Do a simple non-random game. Once you're finished and
have people play it and enjoy... you'll know all the answers.

Complex answer : if you focus too much on detailed world-generation
you'll never do anything at all. You'll get lost in your own creation,
and eventually after a few years loose interest completely.

Finalization : Do games. Not simulations. Or join the Shadow Halls of
borndead roguelikes.
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"From what I've read, a lot of people believe that GenRogue
exists and will be released some day" -- Arxenia Xentrophore
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 5:21:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Balaam wrote:
> I'm guessing this is your answer rather than suggested instruction for
> me?

Both.

> Otherwise I would have:
>
> 1. Finish a non-random simple game and lead a bitter unfullfilled life
> that enters into a spiral of decline because I was never able to do
> what I wanted and had to follow the general crowd of developers.
> Drinking and drugs soon follow. Three maybe four years later I'm on the
> street in a gutter and it's winter, my dreams shattered - is that what
> you want?

No. You have to choices:

First Path : Work on a megalomaniac game you want to make right from the
start.

First Path Outcome Zero : Lose interest after a few weeks. Move on.

First Path Outcome One : After a few years decide that you wont make it.
Feel completely bitter that you lost a few precious years of your life,
while you could do something constructive during that time.

First Path Outcome Two : Never be able to finish your game, but still
try and try, which will lead to a bitter unfullfilled life that enters
into a spiral of decline because you were never been able to achieve
what you wanted and had to follow the general crowd of vaporware
producers. Drinking and drugs soon follow. Three maybe four years later
you're on the street in a gutter and it's winter, your dreams shattered
- is that what you want?

Second Path : Start on something small. Do a playable game beforehand.

Second Path Outcome Zero : After a few weeks you decide that writing
roguelike's/cRPGs is a waste of time, and move on to something else,
being happy that you realized that so fast.

Second Path Outcome One : After finishing a simple playable roguelike
game you're powerridden because of it's fame, but decide that it's not
something worth doing. You are left with a good game for your CV, a
couple of fans, and the feeling of creating something good.

Second Path Outcome Two : As per outcome one, but you decide to work
more on your roguelike, to make a game as popular as Adom. Your fanbase
grows every month, and finally, despite the fact that you didn't write
the dream-game you were envisioning at the beginning, you did write a
game, that is recognized by many people you meet on the street.

Second Path Outcome Three : As Outcome One, but -- you finish your
roguelike, and finally grasp the whole idea of your program in your
hand. You have a full understanding of your game's internals, and the
whole production process. You know you can write a playable and fun
roguelike in 7 days. You feel the power. You can now start working on
your dream project, knowing exactly what you will have to face, knowing
how to overcome those problems, and most of all having a clear path to
victory ahead of you. And most of all you have the experience needed to
complete it.
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"It's much easier to make an army of dumb good people than to
make one single smart good guy..." -- DarkGod
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 2:59:14 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Uzytkownik "Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> napisal w
wiadomosci news:D 681i9$ge$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
> Complex answer : if you focus too much on detailed world-generation
> you'll never do anything at all. You'll get lost in your own
> creation, and eventually after a few years loose interest
> completely.
>
> Finalization : Do games. Not simulations. Or join the Shadow Halls
> of borndead roguelikes.

Maybe a little OT, but fits well :-)

The lyrics from the "man of la mancha":

<quote author="Joe Darion">
To each his Dulcinea
That he alone can name...
To each a secret hiding place
Where he can find the haunting face
To light his secret flame.

For with his Dulcinea Beside him so to stand,
A man can do quite anything,
Outfly the bird upon the wing,
Hold moonlight in his hand.

Yet if you build your life on dreams
It's prudent to recall,
A man with moonlight in his hand
Has nothing there at all.

There is no Dulcinea,
She's made of flame and air,
And yet how lovely life would seem
If ev'ry man could weave a dream
To keep him from despair.
To each his Dulcinea...
</quote>

You seem to be following the impossible dream too ;)  ...

regards,
Filip


Though she's naught but flame and air!
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 4:19:08 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Glen Wheeler wrote:
> 3. Age the world.

that is exactly what i'm trying to do but it's a bit complicated (not a
problem) and slow (might be a proglem for end-users (players)).. just
imagine an ascii game that "loads" for 10 or 15 or even more minutes..
and my first version of the save-game file was something about 200TB
(terrabytes) calculated.. i don't have the space to actually test it..
now i'm redoing the whole thing in c++ (was in delphi, object pascal)..
i learned new stuff and i thing the game will be faster..

but to get back to world generation.. i was thinking about erosion,
rivers, lakes, disasters.. everything.. advancing the cities as the ages
go by.. some would be destroyed.. some would prosper.. some would remain
ruins.. some only a legend.. underground would be aged at the same time..

now as cities grow some might miss an important resource and trade could
occur.. roads are a standard thing that are generated.. i thought about
everything but i think that it would take time even on a 3.0 ghz P4..

i will describe my algorithim later i don't have the time...



vooood
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 7:27:22 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Filip Dreger wrote:
> Uzytkownik "Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> napisal w
> wiadomosci news:D 681i9$ge$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>
>>Complex answer : if you focus too much on detailed world-generation
>>you'll never do anything at all. You'll get lost in your own
>>creation, and eventually after a few years loose interest
>>completely.
>>
>>Finalization : Do games. Not simulations. Or join the Shadow Halls
>>of borndead roguelikes.
>
>
> Maybe a little OT, but fits well :-)
>
> The lyrics from the "man of la mancha":
>
> <quote author="Joe Darion">
*snip*
> </quote>

Kheh, it does ;-).

> You seem to be following the impossible dream too ;)  ...

I never said I didn't. But at finally I found the proper path...
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"The name of GenRogue, has become a warning against excessively
complex design." -- RGRD FAQ
Anonymous
May 16, 2005 11:04:36 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Uzytkownik "Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> napisal w
wiadomosci news:D 6a6vv$ohb$1@inews.gazeta.pl...

>> You seem to be following the impossible dream too ;)  ...
>
> I never said I didn't. But at finally I found the proper path...

mmm... yearn for your eternal love while living with a sexy mistress?
;) 

regards,
Filip
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 8:30:58 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Filip Dreger wrote:
> Uzytkownik "Kornel Kisielewicz" <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> napisal w
> wiadomosci news:D 6a6vv$ohb$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
>
>>>You seem to be following the impossible dream too ;)  ...
>>
>>I never said I didn't. But at finally I found the proper path...
>
> mmm... yearn for your eternal love while living with a sexy mistress?
> ;) 

Hey! Who told you about her?!?
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"Kornel just won't release the code because his compiler is a jealous
mistress and doesn't want any of Kornel's code ever being touched by
another woman. ;) " -- Twisted One
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 8:54:00 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I was only poking a little bit fun at you but I'd rather this whole
thread not get side-tracked!

I'm just interested in peoples world generation algorithms and thoughts
on the subjects (apart from those thoughts that think - to think about
such things is a bad idea in the first place! )

>but to get back to world generation.. i was thinking about erosion,
>rivers, lakes, disasters.. everything.. advancing the cities as the
ages
>go by.. some would be destroyed.. some would prosper.. some would
>remain
>ruins.. some only a legend.. underground would be aged at the same
>time..

This sounds far more ambitious than what I'm playing with. I don't
really intend to include any aging step in my world creation. Instead
it will appear suddenly and fully constructed.

With the above algorithm what is the starting state? Do you use a world
map of discrete tiles all set to grass or water - like I assume many of
the rogue-like world generation algorithms do - or is it something
different?

I'm interested too, about the algorithm - what time step are you using
for the erosion stuff and how does it work as a mechanic? It seems,
unless, there's a nice neat random way of doing it, that you'd have to
include some kind of weather information.
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 1:59:05 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Hansjoerg Malthaner wrote:
> The bitterness goes away once you find new sensible things to do. I
> think. At least it does for me.

I never felt myself bitter about "wasting" 10 years for Kaduria.
Actually lately I've been more excited about programming a roguelike
than few years before when things were slow. I think it must come
from the fact that I love programming itself. Sometimes I think I
like it (pure programming) more than making/playing a roguelike
or other games:) 
So I never was that disappointed about the slow development speed
of my project. There is always plenty of things to do, and that's
fine for me:) 
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 6:09:06 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Balaam wrote::

> I was only poking a little bit fun at you but I'd rather this whole
> thread not get side-tracked!
>
> I'm just interested in peoples world generation algorithms and thoughts
> on the subjects

You could do a google groups search of this group. The topic was
discussed often.

I know that I'm too lazy to repeat my ideas and descriptions once more.

--
c.u. Hajo
Anonymous
May 17, 2005 6:23:46 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Kornel Kisielewicz wrote::

> First Path Outcome One : After a few years decide that you wont make it.
> Feel completely bitter that you lost a few precious years of your life,
> while you could do something constructive during that time.

The bitterness goes away once you find new sensible things to do. I
think. At least it does for me.

--
c.u. Hajo
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 6:40:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Balaam wrote:
> I was only poking a little bit fun at you but I'd rather this whole
> thread not get side-tracked!

People here don not seem to understand the meaning of the word *fun* so
on your place I would watch out ;-P

> I'm just interested in peoples world generation algorithms and thoughts
> on the subjects (apart from those thoughts that think - to think about
> such things is a bad idea in the first place! )

Been gathering material for an article about that, but never had the
time to write it down...
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"Come on, Kornel. 11 years and no binary? And it's not
vapourware?" -- Mike Blackney
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 6:46:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Krice wrote:
> Balaam wrote:
>
>>Static is easier but I'd quite like my game to be able to suprise me,
>>the creator. I'd like a different "world" everytime!
>
>
> I didn't mean "static" quite like that:)  Of course the map is random
> everytime, but it's just the matter of how detailed background rules
> are required to create a place that seems to be "realistic".
> Some people begin with atoms: "..and then there was atoms, and they
> began to gather in bigger things.."
> The player doesn't know how the world was built, but if it's good
> enough then it's playable.
> The "static" I was referring was that the world doesn't change when
> it's created, or it doesn't have any background or history which
> made it what it is now.

You might take a look at Armok: God of Blood website. There's tons of
material about the atom approach to world building...
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"The development cycle for roguelikes never ends..." -- Joseph
Hewitt
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 6:48:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

vooood wrote:
> Glen Wheeler wrote:
>
>> 3. Age the world.
>
>
> that is exactly what i'm trying to do but it's a bit complicated (not a
> problem) and slow (might be a proglem for end-users (players)).. just
> imagine an ascii game that "loads" for 10 or 15 or even more minutes..

5 minutes it the dead time in the GenRogue design doc. Doom III levels
load ten minutes for me, so I want to beat that ;-D.

> and my first version of the save-game file was something about 200TB
> (terrabytes) calculated.. i don't have the space to actually test it..

Ever heard of zlib?

> now i'm redoing the whole thing in c++ (was in delphi, object pascal)..
> i learned new stuff and i thing the game will be faster..

Duh, why would you change a Ferrari for a van anyway? ;-).

> but to get back to world generation.. i was thinking about erosion,
> rivers, lakes, disasters.. everything.. advancing the cities as the ages
> go by.. some would be destroyed.. some would prosper.. some would remain
> ruins.. some only a legend.. underground would be aged at the same time..

And this is a good approach, as long as you don't go overboard. But... I
advise you to read the thread below "Two paths...".

> now as cities grow some might miss an important resource and trade could
> occur.. roads are a standard thing that are generated.. i thought about
> everything but i think that it would take time even on a 3.0 ghz P4..

Implemented well it wont.
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"Come on, Kornel. 11 years and no binary? And it's not
vapourware?" -- Mike Blackney
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 2:02:04 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Aren't you people missing the obvious here? Incremental world
generation, as the player explores and sometimes comes within range of
causal influences from or to unexplored territory. This also alleviates
the storage problem as long as the player limits their exploring.

--
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
Palladium? Trusted Computing? DRM? Microsoft? Sauron.
"One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them
One ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them."
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 2:04:29 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 2005-05-18, Kornel Kisielewicz <kisielewicz@gazeta.pl> wrote:
> You might take a look at Armok: God of Blood website. There's tons of
> material about the atom approach to world building...

Hissim is another interesting program for world generation:
http://users.utu.fi/sajuma/hissim.html

--
Risto Saarelma
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 7:11:57 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I don't know much about the actual world generation. I think picking
algo's that create good "feeling" maps would be better then
concentrating on realism.

For example, start with a heigth map set to ocean level, then create
islands / continents with random mountain ranges. From there, create a
few rivers that always work towards the ocean.

As far as towns, and other things that are added, a lot depends on how
easilly your structures are to change / probe. I'd suggest a system of
generics that look for "requirements", and then have effects.
Different town types would have different requirements (Near river,
neat forest, etc). the "Near River" one could create a fishing style
town, while a desert city would be quite different.

People would be generated in the same way - a generic requirements
field to see if it's possible, and then effects - usually a specific
character type w/specific equipement/skills/etc.

I'm using a similar system for plot-style generation, but it has so
many things it could be applied to - just havn't had the time to try...
:-)
Anonymous
May 18, 2005 8:07:27 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Twisted One wrote::

> Aren't you people missing the obvious here? Incremental world
> generation, as the player explores and sometimes comes within range of
> causal influences from or to unexplored territory. This also alleviates
> the storage problem as long as the player limits their exploring.

I well remeber the problem of that together with large scale features
like rivers or mountain chains.

A river can travel trough a rather large part of the world. The
incremental algorithm must be somehow be able to create a properl
connected and flowing river even if you discover several pieces of it
independantly in different parts of the world.

I've got an algorithm for incremental wilderness, but no solution for
rivers that works with this algorithm.

--
c.u. Hajo
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 6:18:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I did google first, well in fact before that I tried your very own
library! :D  - but it's seems to be a bit sparse on this topic :( 

I understand usenet posts are automatically under copyright of the
author so I see how it could be problematic to collect such data. There
are some interesting links out there but I was hoping for input from
people currently developing such systems.

I found the thesis "Methods for realistic landscape Imaging" to be
interesting but I didn't save the link and it gets quite technical.

There's lots of stuff about *terrain* generation.

http://www.gamedev.net/opengl/spect.html

But I think world generation suggests a program that produces a more
information rich output.

I'll continue to search and tinker until I get bored and move on to
something else for a while :D 
Anonymous
May 19, 2005 7:35:39 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Balaam wrote:

> I'll continue to search and tinker until I get bored and move on to
> something else for a while :D 

Sounds wild and chaostic, pretty much a RLDev-er prototype ;) 
!