New Magic Idea

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I've searched, and haven't found anything like this so far. What if
instead of having a finite number of magic points, you had zero, and
every spelll you cast added to the magic points instead of subtracting.
The odds of a spell suceeding would go down as the number of magic
points you had went up, so as your expertise went up, the spell point
cost would go down, and your chances of failure due to high spell
points would go down. That way, you could continue casting spells
indefinetly, though at higher and higher chance of failure.

Maybe There would be a cost of salvaging a spell, so that you could
save a spell that failed, but at a cost of several times the initial
spell cost.

Of course if you could just save a spell that failed due to high magic
points, at the cost of even higher magic points, you wouldn't care:
just keep casting as your MP approaches MAXINT. SO, therew would have
to be something to limit that. As you increase your MP, you start
getting random, temporary stat drains, like the stat drains in crawl.
if you persist in spellcasting, you start having a chance of a random
(good or bad) mutation, and should you persist further, you get a
chance of mutating into a writhing mass of chaos, or some similarly
disgusting NPC.

MP would be decreased by resting, just as MP are recovered in other
games.

 

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Rats. I thought I had something original there. I'm still using it in
NImRL, though

 

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NIm wrote:
> I've searched, and haven't found anything like this so far. What if

I did. Try UnlimitedMana for GURPS. It;s the magic system that most
appeals to me -- and it will be used in GenRogue, and possibly Carceri.

http://www.io.com/~sjohn/unlimited-mana.htm
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"A random group of people is useless for anything except
statistics" -- Anubis

 

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NIm wrote:

> instead of having a finite number of magic points, you had zero, and
> every spelll you cast added to the magic points instead of
> subtracting. The odds of a spell suceeding would go down as the
> number of magic points you had went up, so as your expertise went up,
> the spell point cost would go down, and your chances of failure due
> to high spell points would go down. That way, you could continue
> casting spells indefinetly, though at higher and higher chance of
> failure.

This sounds pretty much like Vagrant Story (spelling!?) RISK system to
me. It is used in addition to tradition MP method. Every attack/casting
the character does, his RISK goes up and he *MISS* more often. However,
spellpower for Healing spell group goes up as well. RISK reduces itself
over time of via various items.

Too complex from my point of view, though.

 

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NIm wrote:
> I've searched, and haven't found anything like this so far. What if
> instead of having a finite number of magic points, you had zero, and
> every spelll you cast added to the magic points instead of subtracting.
> The odds of a spell suceeding would go down as the number of magic
> points you had went up, so as your expertise went up, the spell point
> cost would go down, and your chances of failure due to high spell
> points would go down. That way, you could continue casting spells
> indefinetly, though at higher and higher chance of failure.

Hmmm... that could definitely work. It puts a "soft limit" on
spellcasting, which is, maybe, more interesting than treating
your magical energy simply as a "reserve" to draw on. I like
it. I definitely think that there should be circumstances in
which a spellcaster can absolutely rely on their spells,
however; constant chances of failure on everything interesting
you do, leads to quick deaths.

Another idea you could try would be that when someone is at
or near 0 "magic points" (your system) or full "mana"
(conventional systems) they have small "extra" powers, such
as automatic detect-magic ability, enhanced luck, ability to
perform chi powers, etc. That's another "soft limit" on
things; your player winds up going, "hmm, I could cast this
really powerful spell, but then it'll be another three game
hours until I can get back to having these other handy powers
working..."

And of course, then you can combine the two, where you have
the ability to cast reliably when at positive mana, but it
will cost you some abilities that you don't get back until
you recover, and when you go below 0, you get unreliable
casting, higher costs, longer times, worse luck, and etc,
that gets worse the further below 0 you go.

Bear

 

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"NIm" <bladedpenguin@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've searched, and haven't found anything like this so far. What
> if instead of having a finite number of magic points, you had
> zero, and every spelll you cast added to the magic points instead
> of subtracting. The odds of a spell suceeding would go down as the
> number of magic points you had went up, so as your expertise went
> up, the spell point cost would go down, and your chances of
> failure due to high spell points would go down. That way, you
> could continue casting spells indefinetly, though at higher and
> higher chance of failure.

I like this idea a lot. In fact, this seems like a solution to a
number of the issues that have bugged me about casters in general.

The traditional MP system seems to go with the idea that you have
some finite pool of magical energy to draw on, so the limit is how
much energy you have. With this idea, instead it's that you get more
and more tired, and fatigue prevents you from casting more spells. So
instead of calling it MP, let's just call it 'fatigue'. That explains
why sleeping/resting restores MP (very common rule, but never really
explained).

That also offers an explanation for why wizards shouldn't fight in
melee. It's not because they're so frail, it's because if they tire
themselves out they'll lose access to spells. One of my main problems
with the wizard stereotype is that, while having bad hp/armor is fine
in normal battles, it messes up game balance with respect to traps,
buffs, etc. It makes more sense for wizards to have the same HP as
the other non-fighter classes, but have to avoid meleeing for a
different reason.

Now, this system makes spell failure a much bigger part of the game
than it is normally, so I think it's appropriate to soften it a bit.
At low failure rates, rather than just fizzling, spells should
usually work but with reduced effectiveness (less damage, shorter
range, bolt instead of ball, etc.)

It's also a good excuse to rate-limit spellcasting. With the usual MP
system, it's common to jump in, cast a spell every round until you
run out, teleport away and then rest until back at full. But casting
a few big spells in a row could leave you temporarily out of breath;
you'd have to pace your spellcasting reasonably.

It also ensures that spells of all levels are useful. Under an MP
system, there is one spell with the best damage/mana ratio, which you
should use always, or maybe a few spells depending on the target
monster type. But under a fatigue-based system, you could start with
high-level spells (which are always better), but be forced to move to
low-level spells when you're too tired to cast the better ones.

--
CalcRogue: TI-89, TI-92+, PalmOS, Windows and Linux.
http://calcrogue.jimrandomh.org/

 

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jimrandomh wrote:
>
> I like this idea a lot. In fact, this seems like a solution to a
> number of the issues that have bugged me about casters in general.
>
> The traditional MP system seems to go with the idea that you have
> some finite pool of magical energy to draw on, so the limit is how

A finite pool of "energy" can be a reasonable feature: for example
spells could drain your power stones, forcing you to find more, or
their power could come from an item like the wizard's staff, which
regains MP on full moon nights or from spells it absorbs.

> much energy you have. With this idea, instead it's that you get more
> and more tired, and fatigue prevents you from casting more spells. So

> instead of calling it MP, let's just call it 'fatigue'. That explains

> why sleeping/resting restores MP (very common rule, but never really
> explained).

Energy points and fatigue can be combined: they recharge in different
ways (continuously and in special circumstances vs with rest and
healing), they are lost in different ways ("energy" can be drained,
fatigue accrues from nonmagical activity), and they can be different
components of spell cost.
There would be a choice between conserving raw power with cheap but
tiring spells (e.g. because you expect to rest but not to recharge much
energy) or conserving health with easy inefficient spells (e.g. because
you expect to fight)

> That also offers an explanation for why wizards shouldn't fight in
> melee. It's not because they're so frail, it's because if they tire
> themselves out they'll lose access to spells. One of my main problems

> with the wizard stereotype is that, while having bad hp/armor is fine

> in normal battles, it messes up game balance with respect to traps,
> buffs, etc. It makes more sense for wizards to have the same HP as
> the other non-fighter classes, but have to avoid meleeing for a
> different reason.

This is a very interesting idea for character class balance, with some
loose ends.
1) If wizards get tired in combat, everybody does. What are the
concequences? Reduced accuracy, damage and speed, skill penalties,
hunger and thirst?
2) Wizards typically have a more direct reason to avoid melee than
avoiding fatigue: they are so untrained, underarmed and underarmored
that their best options are fleeing or using magic. But your suggestion
remains valid: fatigue is a limited resource that can be spent on melee
or on spells.
3) A typical restriction RPGs put on wizards is disallowing the most
effective types of weapons and armour. This is not addressed by fatigue
arguments; D&D, for example, blathers about metal interfering with
magic and complete freedom of gesticulation being required for most
spells.
This restriction could be removed by emphasizing the choice between
improving fighting skills or magic skills: if you have magic, you fight
much worse than a nonwizard of the same level.

>
> Now, this system makes spell failure a much bigger part of the game
> than it is normally, so I think it's appropriate to soften it a bit.
> At low failure rates, rather than just fizzling, spells should
> usually work but with reduced effectiveness (less damage, shorter
> range, bolt instead of ball, etc.)

I agree, complete spell failure isn't fun, even if it happens to an
enemy. For the worst levels of fatigue, dramatic accidents (wrong
target, wrong spell, random effects, bad luck...) are more interesting.
For ideas on how things can go wrong, two good sources are the already
cited Unlimited Mana article and the old AD&D Tome of Magic (describing
"wild mages" whose spells can cause "wild surges").

> It's also a good excuse to rate-limit spellcasting. With the usual MP

> system, it's common to jump in, cast a spell every round until you
> run out, teleport away and then rest until back at full. But casting
> a few big spells in a row could leave you temporarily out of breath;
> you'd have to pace your spellcasting reasonably.

This applies to any type of recovery: you can arrange to be left out of
breath by the return teleport instead of the last fireball.
The problem here is being able to retire safely, then recover safely,
then return to unfinished fights.
I don't see how this tactic could be "common" or very effective, since
in typical roguelike designs all three link of the chain are weak or
broken: teleportation is rare and unreliable, monsters wander about and
harass the resting player, levels are randomly generated and/or
monsters are replenished before the next visit.
What games are you playing?

> It also ensures that spells of all levels are useful. Under an MP
> system, there is one spell with the best damage/mana ratio, which you

> should use always, or maybe a few spells depending on the target
> monster type. But under a fatigue-based system, you could start with
> high-level spells (which are always better), but be forced to move to

> low-level spells when you're too tired to cast the better ones.

Another very positive side effect; it also happens when the wizard is
running out of "energy", but if fatigue effects are gradual every spell
after the first few castings requires to care for the trade off between
short term effectiveness and medium term reliability.

Lorenzo Gatti

 

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I don't think that casting spells would fatigue you in the same way that
fighting or running for long distances would. Magic is more of a mental
effort. It'd be more like spending hours and hours studying, or
programming late into the night, when your mind is fatigued, not your body.

And it makes sense for someone who spends their time studying spells and
the like to not be in a good of shape as someone who spends their time
practicing with weapons.

So in short, I like the original poster's idea, but I'm not sure I agree
with your take on it. Whether you're channeling extradimensional
energy, calling on the gods, or extending your mental powers into the
physical world, you're not going to be physically fatigued or out of
breath, like you would be after strenuous physical activity.

In response to the original poster, I think the idea is good. You
wouldn't have to have magic points increase--they could decrease to 0,
but you can use them up past zero, but you suffer increasing negative
effects (spell failure, temporary insanity, unconciousness, spell
backfire, etc). To me, this seems more logical and intuitive than
having magic points build up. This also gives the character a "safe
area" where there spells are likely or guaranteed to work...it's only
after they over-extend themselves or their magical energy that they
start to fail their spells.

This would be similar to some RPGs (pen-and-paper) that, when you reach
zero hitpoints, you're either unconcious and bleeding to death, reduced
to crawling and making constitution checks to stay alive or concious,
etc. This makes more sense than "Whoops, my hitpoints are all
gone...*die*. Similarly, it makes more sense for you to be able to
extend yourself beyond your normal mana/magic reserves. Mana reserves
don't seem like they'd work full-power until, *poof*, they're gone.

 

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AT DOT DOT <jmccallhoustonrrcom> wrote:
>I don't think that casting spells would fatigue you in the same way that
>fighting or running for long distances would. Magic is more of a mental
>effort. It'd be more like spending hours and hours studying, or
>programming late into the night, when your mind is fatigued, not your body.

That depends on the laws of magic in the particular setting. I can name
fantasy settings where the use of magic can be physically demanding.

Wielders of the One Power (which is magic by another name) in the Wheel
of Time setting find themselves physically exhausted after performing
particularly awesome feats.

The use of magic in the setting of Peter Morwood's _The Horse Lord_
et al. sometimes places a burden on the body; it is noted that powerful
wizards tend to be of athletic build and generally good physical
robustness, because to practice magic while not physically robust enough
is to court destruction. Kalarr cu Ruruc and Gemmel Errekren are both
master swordsmen as well as practitioners of magic.

Belgarath the Sorcerer, in David Eddings' _Belgariad_ and _Malloreon_,
suffers *physical* exhaustion after his confrontation with Ctuchik.
--
Martin Read - my opinions are my own. share them if you wish.
My roguelike games page (including my BSD-licenced roguelike) can be found at:
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~mpread/roguelikes.html
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