Standard RL Keybindings

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Yes, I know, this gets brought up far too often, but I'll bring it up
again, in hopes that something can be done about it.

In most game genres, the keyboard layout is pretty standard, and
remains relatively unchanged from game to game. The benefit to this
is that player's can pick up a brand new game, and dive right into it,
without having to memorize any new controls. Shooters are a perfect
example. In almost every modern shooter, 'wasd' are used for
movement, with 'a' and 'd' strafing, as opposed to turning, the mouse
is used for turning/looking, and 'e' is activate/use. I could go
pickup, say, Half-Life 2 tomorrow, and, having never played it before,
install it, run it, and play it, without consulting the manual.

Why can't we RL-Dev folk achieve that same level of consistancy? What
I propose is the following: we all get together, debate possible
keybindings, and establish a standard. A universal, RL standard.
Obviously, most games have a number of commands that are unique to
their particular game. In those cases, it's apparent that the game
designer needs to pick out those keys. But there are a number of
commands that are common among almost all RLs, and we could benefit
from a solid standard, drafted up and posted for all to see.

As a given, and to avoid pointless flamewars, I think both vi-style
movement and numpad movement should be standardized for 8-directional
movement. Arrow keys can always handle 4-way movement. So, let me
list the major keys/actions, and everyone should contribute their
thoughts on the matter. After a few days, if the general concensus is
that establishing a standards is a good idea, we can take a vote on
the final, proposed standard. I think we'll try and strive for a 2/3
vote majority rules.

Here is my initial proposition:

8-Directional Movement: vi keys, numpad
4-Directional Movement: Arrow keys
Item Pickup: 'g', ','
Eating: 'e'
Look/Examine: 'l', 'x'
Inventory: 'i'
Quit Game: 'Q'
Cancel: ' ', ESC
Help/Manual: '?', F1

My mind is a bit hazy right now, and those are all the 'universal' RL
keys I can think of, although I know I'm missing some obvious ones.
Any command that features two proposed keys for the standard, it's
assumed that the game can feature one or both. Anyone who wants to
share their opinion, please do. And anyone who could be so kind as to
point out some obvious things I missed, please do. :)


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copx wrote:
> I hate the traditional "bind every key on the
> keyboard to some command" interface.

Me too. It's best try to cut down the number of keys and combinations
as much as possible.
Btw, I was thinking to re-assign traditional '>' and '<' to 'Return'
and 'Enter' keys, which both will use stairs up & down.
 
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Dnia 28 May 2005 09:25:47 -0700,
Krice napisal(a):

> copx wrote:
> Btw, I was thinking to re-assign traditional '>' and '<' to 'Return'
> and 'Enter' keys, which both will use stairs up & down.

How would you distinguish between zapping you wand at the ceiling and
zapping it at the floor?

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Timothy Pruett <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, I know, this gets brought up far too often, but I'll bring it
> up again, in hopes that something can be done about it.
>
> In most game genres, the keyboard layout is pretty standard, and
> remains relatively unchanged from game to game. The benefit to
> this is that player's can pick up a brand new game, and dive right
> into it, without having to memorize any new controls. Shooters
> are a perfect example. In almost every modern shooter, 'wasd' are
> used for movement, with 'a' and 'd' strafing, as opposed to
> turning, the mouse is used for turning/looking, and 'e' is
> activate/use. I could go pickup, say, Half-Life 2 tomorrow, and,
> having never played it before, install it, run it, and play it,
> without consulting the manual.

Actually, FPSes a fair bit in their controls; and those things which
are the same, are the same because the same key is needed by every
FPS. Things like zoom, run, grenade, save/restore, drop and use
inventory are different in pretty much every game you try.

> Why can't we RL-Dev folk achieve that same level of consistancy?
> What I propose is the following: we all get together, debate
> possible keybindings, and establish a standard. A universal, RL
> standard. Obviously, most games have a number of commands that are
> unique to their particular game. In those cases, it's apparent
> that the game designer needs to pick out those keys. But there
> are a number of commands that are common among almost all RLs, and
> we could benefit from a solid standard, drafted up and posted for
> all to see.
>
> As a given, and to avoid pointless flamewars, I think both
> vi-style movement and numpad movement should be standardized for
> 8-directional movement. Arrow keys can always handle 4-way
> movement. So, let me list the major keys/actions, and everyone
> should contribute their thoughts on the matter. After a few days,
> if the general concensus is that establishing a standards is a
> good idea, we can take a vote on the final, proposed standard. I
> think we'll try and strive for a 2/3 vote majority rules.
>
> Here is my initial proposition:
>
> 8-Directional Movement: vi keys, numpad
> 4-Directional Movement: Arrow keys
> Item Pickup: 'g', ','
> Eating: 'e'
> Look/Examine: 'l', 'x'
> Inventory: 'i'
> Quit Game: 'Q'
> Cancel: ' ', ESC
> Help/Manual: '?', F1
>
> My mind is a bit hazy right now, and those are all the 'universal'
> RL keys I can think of, although I know I'm missing some obvious
> ones. Any command that features two proposed keys for the
> standard, it's assumed that the game can feature one or both.
> Anyone who wants to share their opinion, please do. And anyone
> who could be so kind as to point out some obvious things I missed,
> please do. :)

No, they aren't universal.
- Many games won't use vi keys, or will only use them as an
alternate config, because they want to use those keys for other
purposes.
- Not every roguelike has an 'eat' command. In addition to
roguelikes which don't like to starve the player, there are also
plenty with unified use commands.
- Not every game has look and examine commands (CalcRogue has
neither; ADOM has no examine), and in those games that do have them
they behave differently.
- Spacebar is not suitable as a cancel key because it is universally
used as the 'next page' key (not just in roguelikes).
- ESC is not suitable as the only cancel key because it doesn't play
nicely with text mode terminals.
- Giving 'quit game' a first-level keybinding at all is slightly
questionable in itself. NetHack used to use 'Q', but changed it to
'#quit' and made Q=quiver. Making the quit command hard to access
makes it clear that quitting is permanent, not the same thing as
saving.

So that leaves...
Pickup: 'g', ','
Inventory: 'i'
Help: '?', F1

In other words, the blindingly obvious. I don't think this is going
to achieve much.

--
CalcRogue: TI-89, TI-92+, PalmOS, Windows and Linux.
http://calcrogue.jimrandomh.org/
 
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"Timothy Pruett" <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:CpydnbQc_f1rEwXfRVn-sQ@adelphia.com...
> Yes, I know, this gets brought up far too often, but I'll bring it up
> again, in hopes that something can be done about it.
>
> In most game genres, the keyboard layout is pretty standard, and remains
> relatively unchanged from game to game. The benefit to this is that
> player's can pick up a brand new game, and dive right into it, without
> having to memorize any new controls. Shooters are a perfect example. In
> almost every modern shooter, 'wasd' are used for movement, with 'a' and
> 'd' strafing, as opposed to turning, the mouse is used for
> turning/looking, and 'e' is activate/use. I could go pickup, say,
> Half-Life 2 tomorrow, and, having never played it before, install it, run
> it, and play it, without consulting the manual.
>
> Why can't we RL-Dev folk achieve that same level of consistancy?

Most RLs already share the same set of basic commands.
I won't join the club, though. I hate the traditional "bind every key on the
keyboard to some command" interface.

copx
 
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copx wrote:
> "Timothy Pruett" <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
> news:CpydnbQc_f1rEwXfRVn-sQ@adelphia.com...
>
>>Yes, I know, this gets brought up far too often, but I'll bring it up
>>again, in hopes that something can be done about it.
>>
>>In most game genres, the keyboard layout is pretty standard, and remains
>>relatively unchanged from game to game. The benefit to this is that
>>player's can pick up a brand new game, and dive right into it, without
>>having to memorize any new controls. Shooters are a perfect example. In
>>almost every modern shooter, 'wasd' are used for movement, with 'a' and
>>'d' strafing, as opposed to turning, the mouse is used for
>>turning/looking, and 'e' is activate/use. I could go pickup, say,
>>Half-Life 2 tomorrow, and, having never played it before, install it, run
>>it, and play it, without consulting the manual.
>>
>>Why can't we RL-Dev folk achieve that same level of consistancy?
>
>
> Most RLs already share the same set of basic commands.
> I won't join the club, though. I hate the traditional "bind every key on the
> keyboard to some command" interface.

Well, to be perfectly honest, I agree with you. My (currently
on-hold) projects used a very simplified interface. So simple, in
fact, that any standard gamepad could easily accomodate all the keys,
with some to spare. However, I think it'd still be nice to establish
a standard for those who don't think the same way, moreso for the
players than the developers. Standards are always designed with the
end-user in mind. I, personally, find it to be a hassle to have to
memorize a bunch of new keys, just to play a new game. Whereas _most_
RLs do already share the same set of basic commands, they don't all do
that, and it's the ones that don't that really make playing a pain in
the ass.

Granted, it'd be even better if all games allowed easy, in-game
keyboard customization, but that simple feature seems to be too much
work for the average RL developer. :-( (Lazy bastards. ;-) )


--
Read more about my three projects, SoulEaterRL,
Necropolis, and a little toy RL.

http://www.freewebs.com/timsrl/index.htm

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Timothy Pruett wrote:
> Why can't we RL-Dev folk achieve that same level of consistancy? What I
> propose is the following: we all get together, debate possible
> keybindings, and establish a standard. A universal, RL standard.
> Obviously, most games have a number of commands that are unique to their
> particular game. In those cases, it's apparent that the game designer
> needs to pick out those keys. But there are a number of commands that
> are common among almost all RLs, and we could benefit from a solid
> standard, drafted up and posted for all to see.

But there already is some kind of level of consistency. Also I much more
vote for a standard keybindings file format, so you may share that file
between games.

> Here is my initial proposition:
>
> 8-Directional Movement: vi keys, numpad
> 4-Directional Movement: Arrow keys
> Item Pickup: 'g', ','
> Eating: 'e'
I'd rather think 'e' - Equipment, 'E' - eating
> Look/Examine: 'l', 'x'
> Inventory: 'i'
> Quit Game: 'Q'
> Cancel: ' ', ESC
> Help/Manual: '?', F1

Well in that case all my games are standard-compilant already (except
for the vi-keys -- but you can change that in the ini file).

Anyway, I'm a great fan of key-amount reduction, and a fan of a general
'u' - use key (for eating, reading, drinking, etc...)
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"It's much easier to make an army of dumb good people than to
make one single smart good guy..." -- DarkGod
 
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Timothy Pruett wrote:
> Well, to be perfectly honest, I agree with you. My (currently on-hold)
> projects used a very simplified interface. So simple, in fact, that any
> standard gamepad could easily accomodate all the keys, with some to
> spare.

Kheh, I was even playing around with joystick support for DoomRL -- that
would definitively make it the first ASCII roguelike controlled by a
Joy :-D. My Joystick has just enough (4) buttons to allow such a play :).

> Granted, it'd be even better if all games allowed easy, in-game keyboard
> customization, but that simple feature seems to be too much work for the
> average RL developer. :-( (Lazy bastards. ;-) )

Not when he has that stadarized in a common input library ^_^
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"Kornel just won't release the code because his compiler is a jealous
mistress and doesn't want any of Kornel's code ever being touched by
another woman. ;)" -- Twisted One
 
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jimrandomh <usenetNOSPAM@jimrandomh.org> wrote:
>So that leaves...
> Pickup: 'g', ','

And Nethack uses 'g' to select a movement-AI mode. And I'd be surprised
if ',' is universally recognised as "pick up object at player's location".
--
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Ceci n'est pas un sigfile.
 
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The Sheep wrote:
> How would you distinguish between zapping you wand at the ceiling and
> zapping it at the floor?

Good question.. in fact, that pretty much destroys my great idea:)
 
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"Timothy Pruett" <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:CpydnbQc_f1rEwXfRVn-sQ@adelphia.com...
> Yes, I know, this gets brought up far too often, but I'll bring it up
> again, in hopes that something can be done about it.
> [..]

Perhaps, since the ambitious has failed, we could agree on a single
letter (and a capitalistion).

'u': 'Use'
Press the key and then you are prompted with an inventory listing.
Select an item from the listing (or another key for the floor) and
the most your character will perform the most obvious/common usage
for that item.

'U': 'custom Use'
Identical to the above, but upon selecting the item to use you
are given the choice of a number of possible usages (adding a
keypress).

Some small justification; the less keys a new user has to learn to be
proficient at a roguelike, the less time it takes for them to stop
learning the interface and start having fun playing the game (thus
hooking them for life!)

--
Glen
L:pyt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+
 
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> Anyway, I'm a great fan of key-amount reduction, and a fan of a general
> 'u' - use key (for eating, reading, drinking, etc...)
> --

Maybe a Default Action Key? You know - press enter to go up or down stairs,
to pick something up, drink from a pool etc...
 
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Lochok wrote:
>>Anyway, I'm a great fan of key-amount reduction, and a fan of a general
>>'u' - use key (for eating, reading, drinking, etc...)
>>--
>
> Maybe a Default Action Key? You know - press enter to go up or down stairs,
> to pick something up, drink from a pool etc...

This is dangeorus. Imagine player enters a room and stands
(unfortunately) on a corpse that lies on an altar of the opposite
alignment. I need to heal myself -- thinks the player, and uses the
Default Action Key.

"You sacrifice the kobold corpse to Hades".
"The earth rumbles! Zeus get's angry!"
"Zeus blasts you with a lighting bolt!"
"You are hit!"
"You die."
"Do you want your possesions identified?"
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"11 years and no binary. And it's not vapourware" -- Igor Savin
 
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Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Lochok wrote:
>
>>> Anyway, I'm a great fan of key-amount reduction, and a fan of a
>>> general 'u' - use key (for eating, reading, drinking, etc...)
>>> --
>>
>>
>> Maybe a Default Action Key? You know - press enter to go up or down
>> stairs, to pick something up, drink from a pool etc...
>
>
> This is dangeorus. Imagine player enters a room and stands
> (unfortunately) on a corpse that lies on an altar of the opposite
> alignment. I need to heal myself -- thinks the player, and uses the
> Default Action Key.
>
> "You sacrifice the kobold corpse to Hades".
> "The earth rumbles! Zeus get's angry!"
> "Zeus blasts you with a lighting bolt!"
> "You are hit!"
> "You die."
> "Do you want your possesions identified?"

Easy solution. If more than one action can be taken, then the player
is prompted which action he wishes to choose. Granted, in your
example, healing should really be handled through inventory, not
through an action key. Sacrificing should be, though.

Similar example as above, but tweaked to make more sense:

The player is standing on an opposing altar, with a kobold corpse
underneath him, and a Staff of Whacking +1 lying on top. "Hmm, the
player thinks, I need to pick up that Staff." He uses the default
action key.

"What action will you take?"
"A) Sacrifice creature on altar."
"B) Pickup item."
"You pickup the Staff of Whacking +1."


--
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http://www.freewebs.com/timsrl/index.htm

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Timothy Pruett wrote:
> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:

> Easy solution. If more than one action can be taken, then the player is
> prompted which action he wishes to choose. Granted, in your example,
> healing should really be handled through inventory, not through an
> action key. Sacrificing should be, though.
>
> Similar example as above, but tweaked to make more sense:
>
> The player is standing on an opposing altar, with a kobold corpse
> underneath him, and a Staff of Whacking +1 lying on top. "Hmm, the
> player thinks, I need to pick up that Staff." He uses the default
> action key.
>
> "What action will you take?"
> "A) Sacrifice creature on altar."
> "B) Pickup item."
> "You pickup the Staff of Whacking +1."

Agreed.

But remember that in some instances this will give away some
non-standard hidden uses for some items/objects, which many (especialy
many NetHack players) consider one of the most fun things about roguelikes.
--
At your service,
Kornel Kisielewicz (charonATmagma-net.pl) [http://chaos.magma-net.pl]
"Some thing's just cannot be programmed in a roguelike. For
everything else, there's GenRogue" -- Anubis
 
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Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
> Timothy Pruett wrote:
>
>> Kornel Kisielewicz wrote:
>
>
>> Easy solution. If more than one action can be taken, then the player
>> is prompted which action he wishes to choose. Granted, in your
>> example, healing should really be handled through inventory, not
>> through an action key. Sacrificing should be, though.
>>
>> Similar example as above, but tweaked to make more sense:
>>
>> The player is standing on an opposing altar, with a kobold corpse
>> underneath him, and a Staff of Whacking +1 lying on top. "Hmm, the
>> player thinks, I need to pick up that Staff." He uses the default
>> action key.
>>
>> "What action will you take?"
>> "A) Sacrifice creature on altar."
>> "B) Pickup item."
>> "You pickup the Staff of Whacking +1."
>
>
> Agreed.
>
> But remember that in some instances this will give away some
> non-standard hidden uses for some items/objects, which many (especialy
> many NetHack players) consider one of the most fun things about roguelikes.

Granted, but like any design decision, you have a trade-off. You can
either have a simplistic, easy to use interface, or a complex one,
with lots of hidden uses for items/ojects. I personally prefer the
former approach. Besides, you can still have the hidden uses, but
they just need to be implemented differently.



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Necropolis, and a little toy RL.

http://www.freewebs.com/timsrl/index.htm

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Glen Wheeler wrote:
> "Timothy Pruett" <drakalor.tourist@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:CpydnbQc_f1rEwXfRVn-sQ@adelphia.com...
>
>>Yes, I know, this gets brought up far too often, but I'll bring it up
>>again, in hopes that something can be done about it.
>>[..]
>
> Perhaps, since the ambitious has failed, we could agree on a single
> letter (and a capitalistion).
>
> 'u': 'Use'
> Press the key and then you are prompted with an inventory listing.
> Select an item from the listing (or another key for the floor) and
> the most your character will perform the most obvious/common usage
> for that item.
>
> 'U': 'custom Use'
> Identical to the above, but upon selecting the item to use you
> are given the choice of a number of possible usages (adding a
> keypress).
>
> Some small justification; the less keys a new user has to learn to be
> proficient at a roguelike, the less time it takes for them to stop
> learning the interface and start having fun playing the game (thus
> hooking them for life!)

I've seen that discussed before here (u/U) I'm a fan of it.

On RL interfaces I would like to see four things;
a) Customisable keybindings
b) Preset keysets that match the most popular RLs plus your own default
Select "Nethack" for that keyset, "ADoM" for that keyset etc
c) The keybinding help to be one keypress away as it is used
often by new players (maybe display a sticky box on screen?)
d) Use keybindings as hotkeys for advanced users but provide
some easier interface for new players that also teaches them
the shortcuts - saving the need to rely solely on the keybinding
help

a) & b) eliminate a lot of the "I don't like your keyset" issues

c) saves time and is less annoying

d) eases the learning curve and barrier to entry esp for non-RL
players

--
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Fun RLs in rgrd that I have tested recently!
DoomRL - DwellerMobile - HWorld - AburaTan - DiabloRL
Heroic Adventure - Powder - CastlevaniaRL - TheTombs
 
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Glen Wheeler <gew75@uow.edu.au> wrote:
[ ... ]
> Perhaps, since the ambitious has failed, we could agree on a single
> letter (and a capitalistion).

> 'u': 'Use'

The problem with 'u' is that it often binds to MOVE_NORTHEAST in an 8-
directional vi-like keyboard setting. This is one reason why 'u' won't
make it as a standard key for using.

[ ... ]

> Some small justification; the less keys a new user has to learn to be
> proficient at a roguelike, the less time it takes for them to stop
> learning the interface and start having fun playing the game (thus
> hooking them for life!)

This is true, of course, and something worth chanting three times whenever
you're working on your UI.

Cheers, Gero

--
Gero Kunter (gero.kunter@epost.de)
 
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"Gero Kunter" <gero.kunter@epost.de> wrote in message
news:d7fphg$nic$1@surz18.uni-marburg.de...
> Glen Wheeler <gew75@uow.edu.au> wrote:
> [ ... ]
>> Perhaps, since the ambitious has failed, we could agree on a single
>> letter (and a capitalistion).
>
>> 'u': 'Use'
>
> The problem with 'u' is that it often binds to MOVE_NORTHEAST in an 8-
> directional vi-like keyboard setting. This is one reason why 'u' won't
> make it as a standard key for using.
>

Surely users of the Vi keys can handle the extended (i.e. regular RL)
interface: as in Angband, it can be made an option.

> [ ... ]

--
Glen
L:pyt E+++ T-- R+ P+++ D+ G+ F:*band !RL RLA-
W:AF Q+++ AI++ GFX++ SFX-- RN++++ PO--- !Hp Re-- S+