Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Deserted Island Roguelike

Last response: in Video Games
Share
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 8:32:57 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I checked the big list of themes
(http://roguebasin.t-o-m-e.net/index.php/Theme) and didn't see this
one, so I figured I'd talk about it a little (since I was just playing
a very good deserted island game).

Just for reference here are a couple of fun games in this style
(although they aren't roguelikes).
Mujintou Monogatari: SNES. It's in Japanese but you can still enjoy
it.
Schiffbruch: This one is in English and for PC. (Might can get it at
HOTU, I forget.)
(Anyone else know any good stranded/deserted island games?)

As for other media:
Robinson Crusoe
(Anyone know anything else, and please don't say Gilligan's Island.
Actually, if you were wanting a humorous game, I guess you could say
it, but I think the survival aspect is more entertaining.)


The point of the game is basically to survive and escape. Although,
after you secure food, water and shelter, there needs to be interesting
stuff to do until you get rescued/build an escape craft/etc.

This theme is interesting from a developer's point of view because,
generally speaking, the map is fairly limited. There's probably only
the surface and maybe one level of caves. Still, the map needs to be
fairly interesting to keep the player playing when there isn't that
much room to move around. (The player will generally move a lot slower
when a water/food source is a major concern.)


Anyone else have any interesting ideas/observations/etc. about this
theme for a roguelike?
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 3:02:12 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

ArchMageOmega wrote:

<snip>

I had toyed around with doing a "Harvest Moon"-ish deserted island
type game before, but never went anywhere with it. Would have RL
style combat (against panthers, boars, etc.), but the main focus of
the game would be obtaining food and water, and surviving the elements.


--
My projects are currently on hold, but I do have
some junk at the site below.

http://www.freewebs.com/timsrl/index.htm

--
Anonymous
June 11, 2005 4:20:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Dnia 11 Jun 2005 04:32:57 -0700,
ArchMageOmega napisal(a):

> (Anyone else know any good stranded/deserted island games?)

Survival Kids 1 & 2 on game boy are great.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
<..> ] 0110110?
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 1:22:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Has anyone tried to make an island generation algorithm? I imagine it
would be similar to overworld terrain generation. (I'm thinking of
trying to write a game like this. Maybe...)

Anyone have any thoughts about generating islands?
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 7:55:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

The Sheep wrote:
> Dnia 11 Jun 2005 21:22:34 -0700,
> ArchMageOmega napisal(a):
>
> > Has anyone tried to make an island generation algorithm? I imagine it
> > would be similar to overworld terrain generation. (I'm thinking of
> > trying to write a game like this. Maybe...)
> >
> > Anyone have any thoughts about generating islands?
>
> I've done it. It goes like this:
> <snipped>

That's cool. I've been playing with generating islands from
(essentially) heightmaps (a big bump in the middle multiplied by some
perlin noise) most of the day today. It's working alright, but when
I'm trying to make a second island, it's really hard to keep the two
seperated. It wouldn't be very difficult using your idea (would need a
much larger starting configuration though).
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 11:50:23 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Dnia 11 Jun 2005 21:22:34 -0700,
ArchMageOmega napisal(a):

> Has anyone tried to make an island generation algorithm? I imagine it
> would be similar to overworld terrain generation. (I'm thinking of
> trying to write a game like this. Maybe...)
>
> Anyone have any thoughts about generating islands?

I've done it. It goes like this:

You start with a seed. If you want an island, it'd be something like this:

0210
2981
1870
0000

Now, you split every square in four, obtaining something like this:

00221100
00221100
22998811
22998811
11887700
11887700
00000000
00000000

Now you need to introduce some noise. I did it by selecting, for every
square, a random direction and taking a randomly weighted average value
of current square and the square in that direction. If you go out of the
border, you treat it as 0.

01211000
00221100
22498710
17988601
14787500
01587200
00101000
00000000

Now, repeat these steps until you get the map of right size. You might
want to apply some kind of blur filter at the end.

Oh, at the end you just replace the numbers with tiles -- 0 is deep water,
1 is shallow water, 2 is beach, 3 is grass, 4 is weeds, 5 is bush, 6 is
large bush, 7 is small tree, 8 is large tree and 9 is thicket. Just an
example.
--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(><) 3 Ouch!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 6:17:11 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Ray Dillinger wrote:
> <snipped>

I've done the diamond-square algorithm before (I can't remember what I
was doing with it now) and I think perlin noise looks better (but it is
harder to seed). Hmm... Well, anyway.

When you say tropical altitudes, what do you mean? (Can you give an
example?)
Anonymous
June 12, 2005 6:40:51 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

ArchMageOmega wrote:
> Has anyone tried to make an island generation algorithm? I imagine it
> would be similar to overworld terrain generation. (I'm thinking of
> trying to write a game like this. Maybe...)
>
> Anyone have any thoughts about generating islands?
>


Well, "fractal" islands work nicely. Start with a map that has
zeros (for deep water) around the edges, and 64 (for a high
altitude) in the center. Then you just start filling in points
inbetween by going halfway between the points that are filled
in and assigning a value halfway between the values you've got,
plus or minus 1 to some fraction F of the distance between the
points. So you fill in grids of smaller and smaller size this
way: one mapped square per 64x64 grid, then one per 32x32 grid,
then 1 per 16x16 grid, etc, until you're filling in individual
squares.

Finally, you "flood" the area by making the grids lower than
some number into water, and the rest into land. Treat the
numbers in the squares as topological altitude. Some fairly
natural-looking islands emerge.

Things to play with:
The initial height in the center for the island;
The fraction F; a big F makes an island with lots of
mountains and canyons and relief, and a small
one makes something that's all gentle slopes
and rolling plains.
The initial scale: make it big enough that the height
variation "hides" the initial cone shape, even
for a fairly small F.


Bear
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 10:04:19 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

ArchMageOmega wrote:

> When you say tropical altitudes, what do you mean? (Can you give an
> example?)

Not tropical. Topological. Height above "sea" level.

Bear
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 10:40:53 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Ray Dillinger wrote:
> Not tropical. Topological. Height above "sea" level.

Sorry, I just read it wrong.


I have a couple of questions about a game like this.

First, how realistically do you think I should track the players state?
By that I mean I can track things like hunger, thirst, fatigue, etc.
So here's a short list. What do you think I should and shouldn't keep
track of?
- General Health/HP
- Hunger
- Thirst
- Fatigue
- Salt level
- Diseases (generalized or specific?)
- Poisons (same question)
- Specific injuries (arms, legs, etc.)
- More detailed hunger (such as fat/carbs/protein instead of calories)
- Alcohol level (fermented fruit? probably not.)
(Anything else worth keeping track of?)

Ok... I had another question but I can't remember it right now... I'll
ask when I do.
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 11:06:16 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Actually, I think my other question was how should I deal with disease
and poison? Should it be like RPG status effects or more realistic?
(Should there be more than one generic disease and poison?)
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 11:26:34 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Oh yeah, I remember now. (Sorry about the triple post.)

Does anyone know a good algorithm for generating rivers given a
heightmap? (One that will let the rivers branch, form lakes, form
deltas, etc. if possible.)
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 4:31:35 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005, ArchMageOmega wrote:
>
> Oh yeah, I remember now. (Sorry about the triple post.)
>
> Does anyone know a good algorithm for generating rivers given a
> heightmap? (One that will let the rivers branch, form lakes, form
> deltas, etc. if possible.)

Well, the obvious algorithm may or may not be any good; I've never
tried. Basically, you just take your fractal (or whatever) island,
and let it "rain" all over the island. Each "raindrop" then flows from
where it dropped toward sea level, taking the greedy route. At each
step of its path, it has a certain probability of "eroding" the
landscape, lowering that square's altitude by some amount.
Result: natural branching rivers.

To get deltas in floodplains, it might work to give each square a
"natural bedrock" level somewhere near sea level, below which it
cannot erode. Then, once the river reaches a plain with high bedrock,
the drops will be more likely to branch out. (Adjust the drop-flowing
algorithm so that instead of being absolutely greedy, the drops take
each path in proportion to its altitude gradient.)
Result(?): natural deltas.
Doing clever things with bedrock would produce "waterfalls," too.

Problem: This algorithm doesn't seem to address /width/ at all.
Your rivers will all be one square wide. And that looks kind of silly.
You might get around that by not letting water flow across really
steep altitude gradients, which would make raindrops flow "alongside"
deep ravines, hence "widening" them. But it would also kill the idea
of waterfalls, unless that were a special case.

Anyway, I'm sure other people have actually implemented rivers
before. :) 

-Arthur
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 5:48:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Arthur J. O'Dwyer wrote:
> <snipped>

At the moment, I'm using this algorithm:
- Pick a point to start the river in the mountains.
- Until you reach ocean:
-- Set the current square as a river square
-- Raise the ground here
-- Step to the lowest neighbor
(Raising the ground keeps it from getting stuck in basins and creates
nice lakes.)

I think I'm going to try something with rain though. I like that idea
better. (This way is limited to a preset number of rivers and doesn't
create branches.)
Anonymous
June 13, 2005 6:54:01 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Ok... I've been playing with the rain for a while now and I can't
figure out how to get it to form coherent rivers. It keeps either
flooding the while place, creating a lot of disconnected streams or
leaving little dots of water everywhere. Is there something I'm
missing?
Anonymous
June 14, 2005 12:35:18 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005, ArchMageOmega wrote:
>
> Ok... I've been playing with the rain for a while now and I can't
> figure out how to get it to form coherent rivers. It keeps either
> flooding the while place, creating a lot of disconnected streams or
> leaving little dots of water everywhere. Is there something I'm
> missing?

As I said, I've never actually implemented it; maybe it just plain
doesn't work too well. You are starting with some sort of fractal
island with plenty of gradients already, right? And using a decent
PRNG so the same spots don't keep getting hit (though I wouldn't
expect that to be a problem if you're calling the PRNG a lot during
each drop's descent)? Beyond that, I have no advice except "Oops,
start over with a new idea." :) 

New improvement(?), by the way: Run all the drops in parallel,
and don't let more than N drops share the same square. Then you
might get rivers more than one square wide.

New idea entirely: You can generate "fractal moss" by letting
"snow" fall (or random-walk) from the top of a well to the bottom,
freezing in place as soon as it touches another frozen piece (at a
corner or along one side) or the well bottom. That kind of moss can
look kind of like a river delta or tributary system; maybe you could
figure out something using that.

Probably the best results come from some ad-hoc method, though, just
like with dungeon generation.

-Arthur
Anonymous
June 14, 2005 1:07:26 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

ArchMageOmega <archmageomega@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know a good algorithm for generating rivers given a
> heightmap? (One that will let the rivers branch, form lakes, form
> deltas, etc. if possible.)

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.roguelike...

--
Jim Strathmeyer
Anonymous
June 14, 2005 11:34:42 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Arthur J. O'Dwyer wrote:
> <snipped>

Jim Strathmeyer
> <snipped>

Thanks for the ideas. (Even if I can't get any of them to work for
me.)

Any thoughts on my other question? (How detailed should the
information I keep on the player be? As in health, etc.)
Anonymous
June 14, 2005 1:45:26 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

ArchMageOmega <archmageomega@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Any thoughts on my other question? (How detailed should the
> information I keep on the player be? As in health, etc.)

No one's answering, because no one can tell you how to code your game.

Are you trying to make a design document? Or are you going to just start
coding and build up?

If the latter, just be sure not to code anything that has no use (or
that you don't know how you want to use it, yet.) As in, don't put
disease and poison into the game until you know what affect you want
them to have in the game. It's like asking for the player's gender and
then never using it in the game, it just a waste of coding time.

--
Jim Strathmeyer
Anonymous
June 15, 2005 1:07:54 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Jim Strathmeyer wrote:
> Are you trying to make a design document? Or are you going to just start
> coding and build up?

I've got some code but I'm trying to get some ideas/opinions on various
aspects of the game play. (Such as whether people would find a
simplistic or realistic health system more fun in this kind of game.)
Anonymous
June 15, 2005 10:26:04 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At 14 Jun 2005 21:07:54 -0700,
ArchMageOmega wrote:

> Jim Strathmeyer wrote:
>> Are you trying to make a design document? Or are you going to just start
>> coding and build up?
>
> I've got some code but I'm trying to get some ideas/opinions on various
> aspects of the game play. (Such as whether people would find a
> simplistic or realistic health system more fun in this kind of game.)

It's like asking whether people prefer FPS or RTS.
Or whether they prefer puzzle games or paltform games.

Make up your mind on what kind of game you want to make first.

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(--) 3 ..zzZZ
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 3:22:28 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

The Sheep wrote:
> It's like asking whether people prefer FPS or RTS.
> Or whether they prefer puzzle games or paltform games.

I suppose so. Then let me ask a slightly different question. Assuming
I want to make a realistic game, what's too realistic or too much
detail? (If you're not sure what I'm asking check out the game
Robinson's Requiem at HOTU.)
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 9:40:13 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

"ArchMageOmega" <archmageomega@hotmail.com> writes:

> I suppose so. Then let me ask a slightly different question. Assuming
> I want to make a realistic game, what's too realistic or too much
> detail?

Start with a simple, abstract game that's easy to finish writing. Then
add a few details. Still fun? Add more details. Repeat as necessary. If
(when) you get to a point where the details are overwhelming, stop and
back up a step or two.

Make sure to use CVS or some other version control, so you can easily
experiment with new things and back out your changes if they don't work
out.

In short, make the game that *you*, and people with similar tastes as
yours, want to play. You can worry about what everyone else wants when
you're being paid to worry about that. ;-)

sherm--
Anonymous
June 16, 2005 10:29:41 PM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At 16 Jun 2005 11:22:28 -0700,
ArchMageOmega wrote:

> The Sheep wrote:
>> It's like asking whether people prefer FPS or RTS.
>> Or whether they prefer puzzle games or paltform games.

> I suppose so. Then let me ask a slightly different question. Assuming
> I want to make a realistic game, what's too realistic or too much
> detail? (If you're not sure what I'm asking check out the game
> Robinson's Requiem at HOTU.)

Realistic is a simulation, a game is a game. You can play a game in
reality, so realism isn't always bad, but a game is alsways a game.

Anyways, I guess you start with the wrong end. You must know what you want
to write before you start. Imagine yourself palying the game. What would
you like to do? What would be the chalenge?

Try to describe a few sample game sessions.

THEN think about how to achieve this.

Disclaimer:
Righ, as if anyone of us does it :) 


--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(nn) 3 Grin
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 5:39:02 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 11 Jun 2005 04:32:57 -0700, "ArchMageOmega"
<archmageomega@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I checked the big list of themes
>(http://roguebasin.t-o-m-e.net/index.php/Theme) and didn't see this
>one, so I figured I'd talk about it a little (since I was just playing
>a very good deserted island game).

Wilderness Survival added to Themes. (The deserted island is a
specific setting for Wilderness Survival. You could use any other
challenging environment, including fantasy/SF environments. What's
distinctive is that you are looking at basic non-combat survival
challenges.) Feel free to make an entry for this new theme.

>As for other media:
>Robinson Crusoe
>(Anyone know anything else, and please don't say Gilligan's Island.
>Actually, if you were wanting a humorous game, I guess you could say
>it, but I think the survival aspect is more entertaining.)

Well, you could use some of the Gilligan's Island plot seeds,
although, yes, leave out the Harlem Globetrotters. Uh, how about the
movie _Castaway_? _Swiss Family Robinson_? _Robinson Crusoe on Mars_
for a sci-fi adaptation? Okay, that one gets into alien menace and
stuff, but it is a start. Also, check with your local librarian. There
isn't a lot of "deserted island" stuff, but there's a fair amount of
"man(boy/girl) vs. nature) type literature. And don't forget the
children's librarian -- there's a fair number of juvenile books in
that genre.

>The point of the game is basically to survive and escape. Although,
>after you secure food, water and shelter, there needs to be interesting
>stuff to do until you get rescued/build an escape craft/etc.

Maybe allow for "condensed time", where you can advance the clock a
week, interrupted by any random events, like storms, that happen
during that time, but allowing you to just automatically consume your
stores for that time, and do basically nothing, waiting while your
crops grow or seeing if your smoke signal got anyone to come rescue
you or whatever you might want to wait for. Maybe you could put some
treasure on the island to search for when not busy trying to survive.

>Anyone else have any interesting ideas/observations/etc. about this
>theme for a roguelike?

Difficult, but potentially interesting. And if it doesn't work out,
you should be able to salvage much of the work for a different
island-based game.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Dance, Puppet, dance!
But why are there *humans* dancing for the puppet?
Anonymous
June 20, 2005 5:39:13 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 13 Jun 2005 06:40:53 -0700, "ArchMageOmega"
<archmageomega@hotmail.com> wrote:

>I have a couple of questions about a game like this.
>
>First, how realistically do you think I should track the players state?

That depends. Are you just trying to make a game or do you want to
make an educational game? You can really go into realism if you want
it to have educational content. Otherwise, realism isn't important,
verisimilitude (the subjective *feeling* of realism) is.

>By that I mean I can track things like hunger, thirst, fatigue, etc.
>So here's a short list. What do you think I should and shouldn't keep
>track of?
>- General Health/HP
>- Hunger
>- Thirst
>- Fatigue
>- Salt level
>- Diseases (generalized or specific?)
>- Poisons (same question)
>- Specific injuries (arms, legs, etc.)
>- More detailed hunger (such as fat/carbs/protein instead of calories)
>- Alcohol level (fermented fruit? probably not.)
>(Anything else worth keeping track of?)

Can you make these interesting? Challenging? Can you define meaningful
game effects for each? You might consider psychological factors --
mental health is also a factor.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
Dance, Puppet, dance!
But why are there *humans* dancing for the puppet?
Anonymous
June 22, 2005 5:19:11 AM

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

> >I checked the big list of themes
> >(http://roguebasin.t-o-m-e.net/index.php/Theme) and didn't see this
> >one, so I figured I'd talk about it a little (since I was just playing
> >a very good deserted island game).
>
> Wilderness Survival added to Themes. (The deserted island is a
> specific setting for Wilderness Survival. You could use any other
> challenging environment, including fantasy/SF environments. What's
> distinctive is that you are looking at basic non-combat survival
> challenges.) Feel free to make an entry for this new theme.
>

Alright, that's cool. (I don't really have anything to add to the
entry beyond what is in this thread. If someone else wants to
compile/clean up the info here and post it, feel free.)

> >The point of the game is basically to survive and escape. Although,
> >after you secure food, water and shelter, there needs to be interesting
> >stuff to do until you get rescued/build an escape craft/etc.
>
> Maybe allow for "condensed time", where you can advance the clock a
> week, interrupted by any random events, like storms, that happen
> during that time, but allowing you to just automatically consume your
> stores for that time, and do basically nothing, waiting while your
> crops grow or seeing if your smoke signal got anyone to come rescue
> you or whatever you might want to wait for. Maybe you could put some
> treasure on the island to search for when not busy trying to survive.
>

At the moment my island is about 1 square kilometer (of meter squares),
so there is plenty to explore, but your movement is (or at least will
be) limited by fresh water. That leaves plenty of room for burried
treasure, wild animals, crop growing and whatever other interesting
activities I can think of. But I suppose at some point, there would be
times that a Wait For ... command would be nice.
!