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Thunderbird 1.33Ghz chip FRIED. What happened?

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Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 4:45:58 PM

So, yesterday, I get my new Thunderbird 1.33 Ghz processor, and I'm all excited, and I fit it in my brand new Microstar M7T Turbo motherboard, and I fit my chrome orb cooler on top of it, turn on the system and...

There's this horrible burning smell. The LED's on the motherboard show the system advancing to the BIOS checking phase, and then it stops. I unplug it.

Mind you I haven't messed with any of the defaults anywhere.

I took the cooler off, checked the bottom to make sure I hadn't left a sticker or something on it that was burning and making the smell--no, it's all good, thermal compound is in place. So I put everything back together and try again.

The smell comes back, and this time the motherboard LED's don't get past their initial state (the same thing it does with no CPU installed).

So I take the CPU out, and there's a little scorch mark at the top around metal piece that the fan contacts. Underneath, there's a dime-sized scorch mark that burned a hole through the "warranty void if removed" sticker.

What the hell happened?

I'm guessing faulty CPU... is there anything else it could be? I don't have another socket A processor I can use as a guinea pig, so there's no way to test the motherboard--could a faulty motherboard do that?

I've assembled a lot of computers before and never seen anything like this. Any comments/thoughts/possible explanations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
-Dan
April 10, 2001 6:11:16 PM

did you get your RMA# from the bastards who made that faulty part?(and I'm not talking about the reseller! ;-)) get a full refund and have them pay for shipping.

this is outrageous! we need to get the ftc on their ass asap!



"Amd cpu...Gone in 2 secs flat, it truly is a fast chip!"
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 6:17:55 PM

So you're saying it's definitely a faulty CPU... That's what I was thinking, too, I just wanted to hear that from some other people so I could really put my foot down with the retailer in demanding a new part.

I was talking to the tech support people from MSI, and they were saying that a working AMD chip is capable of burning itself out in a matter of seconds if it doesn't have a fan properly attached to it. Is that true??

I had a fan properly attached to mine, in any case... and there's melted heat transfer compound burned onto the CPU to prove it...

It's an ugly smell, frying CPU...
Related resources
April 10, 2001 6:25:23 PM

Were the jumpers all correct? If the jumpers were too high it will fry in less than a second. Was the heat sink on properly? Was it touching any part other than the CPU?

I'm not sure if Microstar has a default for the jumpers or what the default is; it may have been too high. That is my guess or the heatsink wasn't on properly. I don't think it is like ASUS where you can just plug everything in.
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 6:35:30 PM

The K7T Turbo doesn't have jumpers to control the CPU clock speed--it all happens in BIOS, and I never made it that far.

The only two jumpers on the MB are on for FSB clock speed (set to 133) and one to clear the CMOS.

And I'm pretty sure the fan was on correctly... it was clipped firmly in place, looked to be touching everything it was supposed to be touching, and after the CPU fried there was a hole melted in the thermal compound where the CPU die burned through it. So, looks like they were in contact like they were supposed to be.

-Dan
April 10, 2001 6:42:56 PM

Hmmm an infamous Orb...

You didn't happen to use a copper spacer with it, did you?

If you did, I don't see how the Orb could contact the CPU at all. The base of an Orb (a SuperOrb, at least) has a raised ring that would rest against a copper spacer, keeping the HSF surface about 1/32" off the CPU core. That could be why the CPU torched...T-birds run great if they're cooled right, but they only last a few seconds if they're not.

Plus, if you don't have the copper spacer, you're likely to crush your CPU--Intel or AMD--putting an Orb on.

The Orbs don't even cool that well either.

In a word, Orbs suck.

Kelledin
<A HREF="http://kelledin.tripod.com/scovsms.jpg" target="_new">http://kelledin.tripod.com/scovsms.jpg&lt;/A>
April 10, 2001 6:43:25 PM

Not sure but I think the Chrome Orb is not suited for 1.33 GHz Athlon. BTW, don't listen to what AMDMeltdown is saying, he hates AMD and tries to fool any user of their product.

Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear, Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair...<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by hmg57 on 04/10/01 02:44 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
April 10, 2001 6:56:31 PM

wha? don't listen to me, what is he supposed to do eat the fried cpu? are you gonna buy him a new one?, if not then stfu!



"Amd cpu...Gone in 2 secs flat, it truly is a fast chip!"
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 7:08:03 PM

Orbs suck? The reviews I'd seen on them were pretty positive.
http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/cooling/chrome_orb/...

And they do have a circular depression on the bottom, but I thought that was necessary to avoid crushing the CPU.
http://www.hwdaily.com/reviews/orb/orb-3.shtml

After all, they are specifically designed for thunderbirds:
http://www.thermaltake.com/du0462.htm
And it seems like they wouldn't sell well if every time someone tried to use one to cool a thunderbird the thunderbird met an instant and firey demise...

I've never seen any mention anywhere of copper spacers.

What fan do you recommend?
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 7:09:08 PM

Do you mean it's only rated for lower-powered thunderbirds?

If so, what fan do you recommend?
April 10, 2001 7:52:05 PM

If you don't mind noise, a SwifTech MC462 is best. It's expensive though, and it's hard to get your hands on. It also doesn't fit most motherboards. The SwifTech MC370 might be a viable alternative to this one.

Second would be a NoiseControl Silverado fan. Cools almost as well as a SwifTech, with less noise than even the low-power crummy fans included with some CPUs. Also expensive and hard to get.

If none of the above will do, I'd recommend a GlobalWin FOP32. The FOP32 cools somewhat better than a SuperOrb and fits pretty much any mobo in existence. You also don't risk crushing the core quite as much putting it on.

As for a copper spacer, it's a machined sheet of copper that sits on top of the CPU, underneath the heatsink. It has cutouts for the CPU core to fit through, as well as cutouts for various pads and surface-mount components (as on the T-bird). Its top surface is machined to be at almost exactly the same level as the top of the CPU core. Its purpose is to help keep the heatsink+fan from resting on the CPU core at an angle. In a lot of cases, it's rather unnecessary.

As for the thermal compound, you did right on that part. No tape, just the viscous greasy stuff that never dries :wink:

Kelledin
<A HREF="http://kelledin.tripod.com/scovsms.jpg" target="_new">http://kelledin.tripod.com/scovsms.jpg&lt;/A>
April 10, 2001 8:06:53 PM

AMDMeltdown, eatin' fried CPu gives you extra brain power. It's pretty useful. As for returning the CPU, he may have been scratched when seating the heatsink. The CPU did certainly not come with such an obvious flaw on it. Anyway, returning it on warranty still the best choice since my friend had fried his Tbird and that's what he did. Fortunately, he got refund. I wish you the same luck.

P.S. Sorry for the comment on your post, I admit I was wrong. I misunderstood your reply.

Fuzzy Wuzzy was a bear, Fuzzy Wuzzy had no hair...<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by hmg57 on 04/10/01 04:23 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
April 10, 2001 8:24:46 PM

well then, I guess he should return the pos heatsink and eat the cpu, would you like a bite?

lol@U hmg57, there's nothing wrong with the cpu! say 10x and maybe it will go away!


"Amd cpu...Gone in 2 secs flat, it truly is a fast chip!"
April 10, 2001 8:27:23 PM

This post sounds like bs. Here is why.
1. GiantRabbit only has 5 Post total. Smells of fake nick.
2. AmdMeltdown first to post and makes it sound like some kind of ungodly thing.
3. GiantRabbit reply to AmdMeltdown "AMD chip is capable of burning itself out in a matter of seconds"
AmdMeltdown sig "Amd cpu...Gone in 2 secs flat, it truly is a fast chip!"
4. then you ask how does Giantrabbit know so much about the Microstar M7T Turbo motherboard? If you look at AmdMeltdown info his Occupation is an Amd systems integrator.

AmdMeltdown go troll somewhere else!

Jeff

"If your amd pc crashes, then you don't know how to build pc's"
April 10, 2001 8:30:35 PM

Chrome Orb "cooler"? More like Crap Forb "super-insulator-pins-are-too-hard-and-crack-your-core" heatsink.

Bad choice. I would hate to tell you but you made a bad choice going with the Orb. NEVER NEVER use an orb heatsink, THEY SUCK.

-----------------

All your RAMBUS are belong to us!
April 10, 2001 8:32:52 PM

LOL@U Meltdown for making an ass of yourself.

-----------------

All your RAMBUS are belong to us!
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 8:33:37 PM

I've never used an Orb, but lots of people on this forum and others are in agreement that they don't live up to their reviews. Personally I put more trust in the experiences of real users than I do in reviewers. After all 4 out of 5 dentists seem to prefer an awful lot of toothbrushes. I'm not accusing all reviewers of being paid to write good reviews but I do think companies are careful about who they send free sample of their products.

The FOP32/38 and Swiftech products seem to be the most recommended by members of this forum.
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 8:39:29 PM

I've heard this before. Although from what I've heard, the really awful orbs were an older model that did physical damage to the chip. This one didn't seem to crush the chip (I've seen pictures of chips damaged by the old models).

That's not to say I think it's a good fan--I don't really know much about it, except that I saw some decent reviews about it.

Anyway, some follow-up questions:
1. If the orb didn't crack the core itself, what could the problem be?
2. If the orb -did- crack the core, invisibly, would that cause the scorch marks on the top and bottom of the chip?
3. What fan -do- you recommend? Cost is no object but it's got to be quiet...
April 10, 2001 8:46:42 PM

The fan I recommend is the Alpha PEP66t. I have had great experience with it.

If it cracked the core you would be able to see. the core wouldn't be perfectly square, it would be "chipped" off on a corner.

Not sure exactly what happened, but my bet it on that Orb.

-----------------

All your RAMBUS are belong to us!
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 8:50:59 PM

DAMN. Stop the presses. I've been telling everybody there was no evidence of the core getting cracked. But now that I looked, veeery veeery closely, there's a teeny tiny irregularity in one corner of the core.

Is that the kind of damage you're talking about?

And if that was caused by the fan, would that be enough to cause the cpu to make scorch marks around itself??
April 10, 2001 8:52:44 PM

I don't know what the fuss is all about I have a Tbird 1Ghz with a super orb that runs great and I take the heatsink off every once in awhile to look at the beast of a processor and put it back and still no problems. I don't think the orbs suck. Maybe if you overclock they are not that great but for a good cooler that doesn't make alot of noise it works great. I had the so great fop models They Suck! Frikin thing rattles and make the most awful noise. I could here them over my server SCSI Drives.
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 8:54:07 PM

Thanks for the advice, I will try to return it.
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 8:57:37 PM

Hm. Well, I do have to say, on closer inspection, it looks like there is a teeny tiiiny chip out of one corner of the raised rectangular piece in the center of the CPU. And either it shipped that way or the fan did it to it... I'm going to try and convince the retailer of the former.

Anyway, maybe the orb doesn't do that to everybody, but I have to say it looks like it did it to me... I mean, it makes sense that the problem must be intermittenet--if every fan they sold did that, they'd get a pretty bad rep pretty fast...
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 9:20:53 PM

I see. So you're saying that the chip out of the CPU may not have fried it, but the chip means the heatsink wasn't on right. Hm... It sure looked like it was on right. My God these things are touchy.

Has anyone else ever actually seen a cpu that was thermally damaged? Do scorch marks usually show up or is that unusual?
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 9:26:31 PM

If you want an inexpensive cooler that is relatively quiet and does a good job of cooling, try the VolcanoII from the same company that makes that ungawdly ORB. It uses a standard clip with just the right amount on tension (IMHO).
BTW, clip tension is one of the few things that my opinion is humble about.

Suicide is painless...........
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 9:28:37 PM

Okay, Volcano II, I'll add that to my list of coolers to check out. Anyone else had any good or bad experiences with this cooler?
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
April 10, 2001 10:55:41 PM

BTW Tom did a cooler review a while back. look for it. And since he didn't review the VolcanoII, I did a review and posted the whole dang thing in the coolers forum. YOu might find it a page or two back.

Suicide is painless...........
April 11, 2001 12:48:30 AM

If it is quiet you want, <b>nothing</b> comes even close to the Silverado. If you run it on its lowest adjustable voltage, you cannot hear it literaly. I have one and purchased it on the grounds that it was excelent at cooling. But low and behold, although when combined with Artic Silver II thermal compound and a CPU at full load with SETI it runs at 45 degrees Celcius, I'm even more impressed by the noise level. It is expensive ($89 with shipping), but you said cost isn't an issue. You can't go wrong with the Noisecontrol Silverado.

- I don't write Tom's Hardware Guide, I just preach it"
April 11, 2001 2:07:49 AM

For Tom's page own review of orb see: <A HREF="http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q1/010306/index.html" target="_new">http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/01q1/010306/index.html...;/A>

I am truly sorry you just baked a brand new CPU but if you can shake your grief for a minute I have a question... Before you bought your AMD CPU did any of the millions of AMD fans warn you that AMD chips do not have a heat protection sensor? I ask this question because whenever I say something like "AMD makes the best general purpose CPU for the money, just be careful cause they don't have heat protection." AMD fans jump me and tell me to "shut up" and "let it die" cause enough has been said about AMD and heat. Well I want to know, has enough been said? Were you warned and bought AMD anyway or had you never heard of this before?
April 11, 2001 8:19:17 AM

My freakin common sense and my mobo provide all the heat protection I need.

I do not want AMD wasting valuable research and chip space on something that freakin useless, put it on the mobo, it costs less and can be implemented without affecting the architechture of my favorite CPU.

This chip was not fried it was crushed, why don't you rant about a anti crush sensor?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
April 11, 2001 10:37:21 AM

Facts you need

1) You did not crush the CORE, it is purely faulty

2) Crushed core will not turn on at all hence no heat

3) I used to have a ORB golden one, 11000rpm, works fine.

Now using a Global Win FNP50

I suggest to use Noise Control Silverado, best noise/performance/money shown by tom

still change the Silver Orb, they don't look that suited for 1.33G CPU, I personally, without prove think they max out at 1G.

Like you said, you've got burned mark on the HSF to prove you've installed everything right.

I burned an Duron before, sort of on purpose, without attaching HSF, and honestly told my retailer and after 30mins of chit chat on the phone and 30 mins of chit chat at the store he changed one for me.

So be nice to them and the'll definitely change one for you.


Y bother to help he who never read MANUALS? <font color=blue> COMPASSION! :smile: <font color=red> Read it 10 times KIDDO!
April 11, 2001 11:37:31 AM

WAIT A MINUTE!!

quote:
"So I take the CPU out, and there's a little scorch mark at the top around metal piece that the fan contacts. Underneath, there's a dime-sized scorch mark that burned a hole through the "warranty void if removed" sticker."

Are you saying that there was a sticker on the core of the CPU?? If so, they it back to the store you got it from and then smack em on the side of the head! No wonder the CPU fried, it couldn't transfer heat to the HSF.
April 11, 2001 11:43:39 AM

no, he was talking about the warranty void if removed sticker on the bottom of the chip, between the pins. even I get those on mine! (and mine were scortched, too when they fried)

-----------------

All your RAMBUS are belong to us!
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 11, 2001 3:46:21 PM

Ah, I wish I could just smack somebody!

But the sticker was on the underside of the CPU, in the space where there aren't any pins. Not on top, not blocking heat transfer to the fan. Too bad, that would be a nice, not my fault solution!
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 11, 2001 3:54:34 PM

Hey, thanks, THIS is what I want to hear! Ammo to use on the retailer so I can get a new CPU!

It makes sense that a crushed core is a different problem from an incinerated core.

Just out of curiosity, when you fried your Duron before, did you get scorch marks? How long did it take? I'm just amazed that this thing torched out in 2-3 seconds.

Noise Control Silverado sounds like a great fan... takes weeks to get it though, right? Is there anything else in the same league that is a little easier to get?

Anyway, wish me luck in RMA land...

-Dan
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 11, 2001 4:08:27 PM

reply to lakedude's question about what I knew about the CPU getting into all this.

I'm not totally clueless. I'm not a major hardware fiend or anything, in fact, my last cpu was a K6II-300, but I've been building computers for myself and my friends for years and I have a basic knowledge of how things work.

So, I knew the Tbirds were vulnerable to overheating. I even knew you could break them that way. Did I know they would go out in a puff of smoke in literally TWO SECONDS if not properly cooled? No.

Anyway, how well I was prepared for the Tbird depends on what was actually wrong with it.

1. If the chip was faulty, then I was adequately prepared, because the burnout wasn't my fault, and I DID proceed with caution.

2. If the chip burnt out because the fan wasn't on right, then by God this is by light years the single most finicky hardware product I've ever encountered, and they should all be shipped with giant flashing lights that say:
WARNING. EVEN IF YOU BUY A HEAT SINK/FAN SPECIFICALLY MANUFACTURED FOR THIS CHIP AND INSTALL IT AS PER THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE INSTRUCTIONS ON THE AMD WEBSITE, THIS CHIP MAY STILL INCINERATE ITSELF WITHIN SECONDS OF TURNING IT ON. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO USE THIS CHIP WITHOUT SPENDING AT LEAST TEN (10) HOURS RESEARCHING YOUR COOLING SOLUTION WITH KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE.

I mean, I've never seen another component which was not only made to perform a function but -reviewed by several websites as adequately performing that function- that nevertheless DESTROYS OTHER COMPONENTS.

If that's true, then you absolutely need to make sure people you recommend the AMD to know that.

There's a third option:
3. The chip burnt out because the fan broke the core.
Now, personally, I really like the reasoning of the guy who posted who said the chip would either have a broken core or burn out, not both, because it couldn't heat up with a broken core. (do other people agree with that, by the way?)

But, just for the sake of argument, let's say I broke the chip with the fan. Then the chip should ship with big flashy lights that say: WARNING. EVEN IF YOU BUY A HEAT SINK/FAN SPECIFICALLY MANUFACTURED FOR THIS CHIP AND INSTALL IT AS PER THE MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS AND THE INSTRUCTIONS ON THE AMD WEBSITE, YOU MAY IRREVOCABLY MECHANICALLY DAMAGE THIS CHIP. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO USE THIS CHIP WITHOUT SPENDING AT LEAST TEN (10) HOURS RESEARCHING YOUR COOLING SOLUTION WITH KNOWLEDGEABLE PEOPLE.

That's just my .02...

-Dan
April 11, 2001 4:23:26 PM

><i>should</i> employ the mobo's overheat protections.

hahaha what a joke, so far mb overheat protections are batting 0 for 1000

****how on earth do you get to the bios when the chip you've worshipped has fried!****

yeah, kelledin you too should repeat 20x "AMD has absolutely no thermo related issues" and it will go away.



"Amd cpu...Gone in 2 secs flat, it truly is a fast chip!"
April 11, 2001 4:33:50 PM

I'm glad that you've since relized this about the "self immolating AMD cpu"

"finicky" is not the word here, try "substandard crumbling piece of coal".

pls, let us know on the status of your RMA to AMD.

"Amd cpu...Gone in 2 secs flat, it truly is a fast chip!"
April 11, 2001 5:49:58 PM

Oh, they don't have thermal protection, no. I never said that wasn't a problem. With a little care, though (i.e. choosing a good HSF, making sure it sits right), it's not as serious as you want everyone to think it is.

A great many people happily run Athlons at reasonable temperatures; I don't know why you think lack of a thermal diode is the kiss of death. If you're repeatedly toasting T-birds, then you're just not a competent technician. :wink:


Kelledin
<A HREF="http://kelledin.tripod.com/scovsms.jpg" target="_new">http://kelledin.tripod.com/scovsms.jpg&lt;/A>
April 11, 2001 7:56:46 PM

Quote:
****how on earth do you get to the bios when the chip you've worshipped has fried!****

LOL

Maybe this procedure is too complicated for you...........

-----------------

All your RAMBUS are belong to us!
April 11, 2001 8:28:51 PM

It could have been either a faulty motherboard or CPU, you could have not set the jumper for the propper speed, or u didn't install it correctly. the CPU should have one little corner "sniped" off; looks like:

/---------------
| |
| |

On the motherboard it should have:
......................
.......................
.......................

or something like that. Are the snips matching?
Anonymous
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
April 11, 2001 8:34:36 PM

There are no speed jumpers on the MB (just one for FSB speed that I set correctly). And I did install the chip correctly, matching the pins correctly to the socket.

Nice ASCII art, tho...
a b à CPUs
a b V Motherboard
April 11, 2001 8:53:21 PM

The name Thunderbird comes from ancient southwestern Native American legend, where a giant bird was seen being struck by lightening, but when the tribesmen went to investigate, they found no sign of the bird. This gave rise to the belief that the bird had risen from the dead, and the legen of the Pheonix, a bird that incenerates itself at the end of its life and then is reborn from the ashes. So it goes sithout saying that a thuderbird will incinerate itself, but it is supposed to arise from those ashes! Try plugging it in again and see what happens! LOL!

Suicide is painless...........
April 11, 2001 9:58:22 PM

there is only one way the AMD chips will fit into the socket, and that is the correct way. no way to screw that up unless you remove a couple pins

-----------------

All your RAMBUS are belong t............ ahh screw it
Anonymous
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a b V Motherboard
April 12, 2001 11:36:02 AM

there was only a very faint burn mark, you have to force yourself to see it.

I think it died between 5 to 6 sec and smell came at exactly 8 sec, A7V 1.85V 900Mhz

Like I said, my favorite is the Silverado, then FOP32, but my father didn't know anything about all this and got me a FNP50, still it does the job!

Got my 1G to 1.4G, what else could I complain.#

Still slow running Finite Element Analysis though, takes 30mins to hours.

Y bother to help he who never read MANUALS? <font color=blue> COMPASSION! :smile: <font color=red> Read it 10 times KIDDO!
April 12, 2001 5:55:59 PM

I am just going to have to murder one of the over 50 socket A T-Birds I have built this year to find that out.

Really, I mean that. I really want to know how this stuff happens.

I know it does, heck if Griz can burn one out I guess anyone can it is just that I have not seen it myself.

Hey Griz, what happens if you try and power up that fried proc, is it "reborn from the ashes" as crashman says, cause that would be cool. :) 
April 12, 2001 7:58:28 PM

No, it just doesn't POST

-----------------

All your RAMBUS are belong t............ ahh screw it
!