Thomas

Distinguished
Jun 27, 2003
449
0
18,780
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I am in no way endorsing this idea... just wondering if this has ever
been tried. If your character is wandering for weeks or months in a
dungeon then they must need to sleep. What about every few thousand
turns like maybe every 2-3 hours of gameplay the player had to find a
safe area to sleep. if it is not safe they will be interupted and
possibly very badly hurt because they are surprised and have to use
their first turn to wake up. Never sleeping would cause a long period
of sleepyness and thus large minues to rolls and eventual fainting. It
would be a small part of the game if it were implemented. It could be
interesting but i would think it would detract from the gameplay. I
doubt anyone else will like it either but... i thought i would ask and
get the idea out there.... its probably been discussed here before....
Any good...? Thoughts?

-Thomas
RL: CHAZM
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 26 Jul 2005 11:46:26 -0700, "Thomas" <comments@foresightsagas.com>
wrote:

>I am in no way endorsing this idea... just wondering if this has ever
>been tried. If your character is wandering for weeks or months in a
>dungeon then they must need to sleep.

The hero in Alphaman had to sleep.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Thomas wrote:
> I am in no way endorsing this idea... just wondering if this has ever
> been tried. If your character is wandering for weeks or months in a
> dungeon then they must need to sleep. What about every few thousand
> turns like maybe every 2-3 hours of gameplay the player had to find a
> safe area to sleep. if it is not safe they will be interupted and
> possibly very badly hurt because they are surprised and have to use
> their first turn to wake up. Never sleeping would cause a long period
> of sleepyness and thus large minues to rolls and eventual fainting. It
> would be a small part of the game if it were implemented. It could be
> interesting but i would think it would detract from the gameplay. I
> doubt anyone else will like it either but... i thought i would ask and
> get the idea out there.... its probably been discussed here before....
> Any good...? Thoughts?

Some of the earlier Ultima games involved sleep, but I can't remember
exactly how it worked. I do remember that it could heal your party,
provided your party had enough food to last them, but I don't think it
was required.

Anyways, I don't really like the idea. It's one of those features
that would likely turn me off from the game, since, well, sleeping
isn't fun, no matter which way you look at it. And games are supposed
to be fun, not just dungeon-crawling simulations.

Generally, the fewer unfun details the player has to manage, the
better. Unless you'd have some strong reasons for implementing
sleeping in your game (nightmare world, Freddy Krueger-esque villain
who can only attack when you're asleep, etc.), then don't bother.

That's my opinion on the matter.


--
My projects are currently on hold, but I do have
some junk at the site below.

http://www.freewebs.com/timsrl/index.htm

--
 

Thomas

Distinguished
Jun 27, 2003
449
0
18,780
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Yeah, I dont think i'll include it in my game "except through the sleep
spell" but it is interesting and as "the sheep" said it would be good
if it makes the game more interesting. I will think more about how i
could use it to be interesting and write back.

sorry about the double post. I posted from google groups and it took
until just now... 4 hours later for me to see them. They suddenly
appeared along with 11 replys right in the middle of the responses.
Thats the first time that has happend. I guess because google has
always shown them within 45 seconds from posting for me i figured it
didn't go through.
I'll be more patient next time ;)

I guess it comes down to testing with most of these (silly?) ideas. Do
they add or detract from the game. I think if you only had to sleep
every few hours... it would heal you alot when you slept, and there
were ways to magicaly avoid or immitate it the it might be worth it.
but still probably not. I think sleep being only magicaly induced and
natural sleep being always avoidable through maigc and (R)esting could
be worth while... i dont know. or maybe if resting was just another
better but more dangerous way to heal.

Ill write back with more ideas later.

-Thomas
RL: CHAZM
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At 26 Jul 2005 11:46:26 -0700,
Thomas wrote:

> Any good...? Thoughts?

Well, there usually is "sleeping" state in roguelikes, but it's rarely
something good. As with drinking, it seems too similar to hunger and
doesn't really make anything more interesting.

If you could, however, make it significantly different, it might pay off.

From my experiments with stats, I can tell that any status variables that
change slowly over time should be avoided -- they are hard to track and
generally annoying. Things like hunger, regeneration, poisoning, etc.

Even in Z-Day, which has very complicated player character stats
comprising of two variables, stamina and wound count, suffers from this.
I thought that it's "unrealistic" (shame on me) and "uncool" if the food
you eat just instantly adds to your stamina, so I made an inner counter
for food you've eaten. As long as the counter is nonzero you regenerate
the stamina and decrease the counter. Eating food only increases the
food counter, but doesn't do anything else.

The effect is that people never payed any attention to stamina (even when
it's the most important of the two stats), assuming that it changes
randomly, and after the zombies got them argued that it was an
insta-death.

It's much better now, that I made the food add some amount to stamina
right away (but the food counter and regeneration stayed, as the sign of
my failure).

Maybe some interesting effects of sleepiness, ways to acquire and cure it,
etc. could make it really interesting. For example, why does the character
must become sleepy over time? Why not tie it to other situations
(preferably ones you want the player to avoid). Then it would have
a purpose.


As a side note, there seem to be some questions about adding certain
features, but they seem somewhat generic, and thus the answers are
generic. What do you think are the reasons to add a feature to your game?
I can think of two:

1. It gives a challenge (one that really depends on player) and is fun;
2. It promotes certain (preffered) kinds of player behavior, and/or punishes
others (ie. the ones that doesn't fit the theme, or aren't fun);


--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(==) 3 Yawn?
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:30:41 -0700,
R Dan Henry wrote:

> On 26 Jul 2005 11:46:26 -0700, "Thomas" <comments@foresightsagas.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I am in no way endorsing this idea... just wondering if this has ever
>>been tried. If your character is wandering for weeks or months in a
>>dungeon then they must need to sleep.

> The hero in Alphaman had to sleep.

That must be why I always died early. ;)


--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(^^) 3 Bee!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

El Tue, 26 Jul 2005 14:30:41 -0700, R.Dan escribió:

> On 26 Jul 2005 11:46:26 -0700, "Thomas" <comments@foresightsagas.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I am in no way endorsing this idea... just wondering if this has ever
>>been tried. If your character is wandering for weeks or months in a
>>dungeon then they must need to sleep.
>
> The hero in Alphaman had to sleep.

Yes, he could but indoors only, because clearing a floor guaranteed that
no monsters would attack him since they were unable to use staircases.
Unless you imagine that they were not staircases but ladders going through
closed trapdoors or somesuch, since (as long as I remember) there were no
monsters with hands.

--
Kaleth, writing from a realm deep into the mountains...
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 26 Jul 2005 16:36:00 -0700, "Thomas" <comments@foresightsagas.com>
wrote:

>I guess it comes down to testing with most of these (silly?) ideas. Do
>they add or detract from the game. I think if you only had to sleep
>every few hours...

Before you post them one-by-one, here's a pretty extensive list of
possible player states:

8.2 Food Related States. A character needs to eat.
8.2.1 A character's range of satiation from food ranges from
"starving" through "hungry", (nameless state), and "full" to
"stuffed".
8.3 Thirst Related States. A character needs to drink.
8.3.1 Like food, but goes "parched", "thirsty", (nameless state),
"quenched", "bloated".
8.4 Rest Related States. A character needs adequate sleep and rest.
8.4.1 "Exhausted", "tired", (nameless state), "rested", "perky".
Unlike food and drink, a character cannot have a too-rested penalty
(although this is not strictly realistic, an "overslept" state goes
beyond what I'd want). There is also an "asleep" state and possibly a
"dreaming" state might be used. Also a "doped" state for drug induced
slumber.
8.5 Environmental States. Temperature influences a character's
performance.
8.5.1 "Hot", "warm", (nameless state), "cool", "cold". Possibly also a
"wet" or "damp" state if in the rain unprotected having been in a body
of water. Other possible states?
8.6 Other States. All the other things.
8.6.1 There are some good or possibly good conditions: fast, berserk,
sharp (heightened senses).
8.6.2 There are some states caused by various damage types: bleeding,
frostbitten, burnt, stunned, knocked out.
8.6.3 There are some psychological states: afraid, panicked, paranoid,
confused, hallucinating, giddy. Hajo's suggested happy, lonely,
enthusiastic, depressed and one could add other "morale" states like
bored, proud, ashamed.
8.6.4 There are some miscellaneous physical states: nauseated,
sneezing, poisoned, infected, blinded, congested, paralyzed, slow,
drunk, mute, deaf, numb.
8.7 I'm not sure where to put suffocating, which could be caused by an
attack or by submersion in liquid (drowning, might be better as yet
another condition as liquid enters lungs) or by lack of breathable
air. I do need to include a "needs air" type of condition for when the
@ forgets his spacesuit or lets the air run out (duh!)
8.7.1 For that matter, one could be "on fire" as well.
8.8 While "poisoned" and "infected" are single displayed states, there
should be individual toxins and diseases with differing
characteristics.
8.8.1 Need to track course of infections and toxins where effects are
non-simple. Infection can include parasites, including the "eggs that
hatch into little monsters that eat the host before bursting out".
8.9 Stance: Stance is the state of one's physical position. It can
modify movement, combat, and other actions.
8.9.1 A character has exactly one stance.
8.9.2 Humanoid stances: standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, supine.

I think this is a dangerously near-exhaustive list and way too much
for most purposes. Unless you want to emphasize survival in "nature"
rather than in combat, avoid thirst. Air shouldn't be a concern in
fantasy setting unless it's underwater or something. Even the various
bad physical states can be hard to distinguish meaningfully. No point
in having deafness unless you've already got a sound model working.
Also, most games will *not* want to have individuated
poisons/infections because medical science isn't a game element. This
is pulled from my Prototype notes, which is a space opera setting and
on alien worlds, survival needs for water and air come into play (in
an urban setting, the game should assume you stop at a water fountain
now and again and not even run the thirst counter). Drunk and confuse
are likely indistinguishable in most games. Stances is getting into
exotica for fantasy RLs, but I think is important for a game full of
gunplay.

--
R. Dan Henry = danhenry@inreach.com
 

user

Splendid
Dec 26, 2003
3,943
0
22,780
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Timothy Pruett wrote:
> Thomas wrote:
>
>> I am in no way endorsing this idea... just wondering if this has ever
>> been tried. If your character is wandering for weeks or months in a
>> dungeon then they must need to sleep.
>
> Some of the earlier Ultima games involved sleep, but I can't remember
> exactly how it worked. I do remember that it could heal your party,
> provided your party had enough food to last them, but I don't think it
> was required.

It was definitely required in Ultima V. Camping was the only way your party
could contact Lord British, thus the only way you could gain levels. My friend
didn't realize this at first and just healed with spells, and when he finally
camped later in the game he gained a ton of levels in one shot!

One other frustrating part of camping was that your characters took time to
wake up if you were attacked, so you had to protect the sleeping ones until
they woke up to fight.

> Anyways, I don't really like the idea. It's one of those features that
> would likely turn me off from the game, since, well, sleeping isn't fun,
> no matter which way you look at it. And games are supposed to be fun,
> not just dungeon-crawling simulations.

That's a good way to put it.

--Rick
frankum@slimy.com
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

At 26 Jul 2005 16:36:00 -0700,
Thomas wrote:

> Yeah, I dont think i'll include it in my game "except through the sleep
> spell" but it is interesting and as "the sheep" said it would be good
> if it makes the game more interesting. I will think more about how i
> could use it to be interesting and write back.

Isn't it the other way around?

It should be like, you know, you write your game, see it's too easy or
that it's boring because you can spend too much time without returning to
town, or that players have tendency to do something you don't want them to
do, etc., so you think "hmm... lets see, how can I fix it".

--
Radomir `The Sheep' Dopieralski @**@_
(><) 3 Ouch!
. . . ..v.vVvVVvVvv.v.. .
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

"Thomas" <comments@foresightsagas.com> wrote:
>I am in no way endorsing this idea... just wondering if this has ever
>been tried. If your character is wandering for weeks or months in a
>dungeon then they must need to sleep. What about every few thousand
>turns like maybe every 2-3 hours of gameplay the player had to find a
>safe area to sleep. if it is not safe they will be interupted and
>possibly very badly hurt because they are surprised and have to use
>their first turn to wake up. Never sleeping would cause a long period
>of sleepyness and thus large minues to rolls and eventual fainting. It
>would be a small part of the game if it were implemented. It could be
>interesting but i would think it would detract from the gameplay. I
>doubt anyone else will like it either but... i thought i would ask and
>get the idea out there.... its probably been discussed here before....
>Any good...? Thoughts?

Sleep simulation! WOW! Just like the real thing but in 16 colours!
 
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

The Sheep wrote:
> At 26 Jul 2005 11:46:26 -0700,
<snip>
> Maybe some interesting effects of sleepiness, ways to acquire and cure it,
> etc. could make it really interesting. For example, why does the character
> must become sleepy over time? Why not tie it to other situations
> (preferably ones you want the player to avoid). Then it would have
> a purpose.
>
>
> As a side note, there seem to be some questions about adding certain
> features, but they seem somewhat generic, and thus the answers are
> generic. What do you think are the reasons to add a feature to your game?
> I can think of two:
>
> 1. It gives a challenge (one that really depends on player) and is fun;
> 2. It promotes certain (preffered) kinds of player behavior, and/or punishes
> others (ie. the ones that doesn't fit the theme, or aren't fun);
>
>

Such as repeating low-risk actions over and over (i.e. scumming)? This
would be boring to the character, and he would become sleepy...
 

TRENDING THREADS