new blademaster (I think i'm done)

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Alright. i think i'm done with this. The new blademaster PrC.

Prerequisites: BAB +5, Balance: 4 ranks, Tumble: 5 ranks, Combat
reflexes, Quickdraw, Weapon focus: sword. Must be trained by a
blademaster (and must be proficient with a sword)

BAB progression: good (1-10)
Fort save: poor (0-3)
Ref save: good (2-7)
Will save: intermediate (1-5)
Skill points: 2+int
Abilities by level (explinations later):
Level 1: the Circle, Specialization
Level 2: Sivine Strike 1/day/level
Level 3: Bonus Feat
Level 4: Breached Circle
Level 5: Perfect Circle, Divine Strike 2/day/level
Level 6: Bonus Feat
Level 7: "the best attack is not to attack"
Level 8: Divine strike constant
Level 9: Bonus Feat
Level 10: Whirlwind flow.

Blademasters are proficient with martial, simple weapons and no armor
or shields. They are also proficient with blademaster swords (a
blademaster longsword is basically a slightly different longsword. the
damage averages one point higher (2d4) and they can use longsword feats
with a blademaster longsword . . . it's basically a tiny sword upgrade
that they can use of they want, though there are reasons not to).


The Circle
This is a mental state that the blademaster enters by making a
Concentration check DC 20. Once entered, this state continues until
the blademaster lowers his mind from a combat state (usually this is as
long as combat continues). While in this state the blademaster cannot
be caught flat footed and always goes first in initiative order. If
another creature has the Circle or another ability that allows them to
go first the two will act at the same time.

Divine Strike
The actuality of the divine lies in many guises, the perfect draw, the
perfect strike, and the perfect kill. Using this power, the
blademaster leaves no room for error or chance. he strikes where he
wants and how he wants. Mechanically, the blademaster may choose any
amount of damage ranging from one point up to the maximum allowed for a
strike (including critical damage, etc) for his damage. Therefore, a
blademaster wielding a longsword could choose to do between one and
eight points of damage on a successful attack, at his option. He may
use this ability once per day per blademaster level at second level,
twice per day per blademaster level at fifth level, and at will at
level 8.

Breached Circle
The Circle is the blademasters best defense. When in the circle a
blademaster with this ability may extract an attack of opportunity from
anyone entering his circle (threatened area), so skilled is he at
defending the space.

"the best attack is not to attack"
A blademaster with this ability had truly come to understand this
maxim. He doesn't always seek his opponent's downfall, but lets it
come to him as they desire it. Using this ability a blademaster may
make attacks of opportunity while he is in full defense mode.

Perfect Circle
Using this ability, the blademaster is always assumed to be taking 10
to maintain his circle as a free action. If this would allow him to
enter the circle, then he is always assumed to be in it unless he
lowers it. If it would not, he may still roll normally.

Whirlwind Flow
The Blademaster of this level attains the whirlwind Flow, a perfect
attack that encompasses the entirety of his circle in one fluid motion.
mechanically, the blademaster performs a whirlwind attack. This is a
standard action as opposed to a full round action. He makes an attack
versus everyone he threatens at his highest base attack bonus. This
action does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the blademaster
already has the Whirlwind Attack feat he may replace it with this
ability and select a bonus feat instead.

Bonus Feats
Occasionally, a blademaster receives bonus feats. The feats must come
from the following list. the blademaster must still meet the
prerequisites for these feats and where applicable they apply to the
blademaster's sword (for example a blademaster may not take Improved
Critical: longbow as a bonus feat). (feats described below are new
feats that require the Circle). Any blademaster feat with the Circle
as a prerequisite may only be used while within a blademaster's Circle.


Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Blind Fight, Cleave, Great Cleave, Combat
Expertise, Spring Attack, Great Cleave, Greater Two Weapon Fighting,
Improved Critical, Defensive Mastery, Sight of the Circle, Supreme
Cleave, Mountain Charge, Running Slash, Deflect Arrows.


Defensive Mastery: This feat follows the logic of the Divine strike
out to defense. A Blademaster perfects the defense of his blade and
moves in concert with it out of pure instinct. A blademaster with this
feat may add his blademaster level to his defense score while in his
Circle.
Prerequisites: The Circle, Combat Expertise, Dodge

Sight of the Circle: A blademaster with this level of training is
innately aware of all things in their circle whether they can see them
or not. While in her circle a blademaster with this feat suffers no
miss chance at all for fighting blind.
Prerequisites: the Circle, Blind-Fight

Supreme Cleave: A blademaster is a mobile and perfectly tuned weapon on
the field of battle. A blademaster with this feat may make a five foot
move between cleave attempts. He may only move up to his full move
with this feat, however.
Prerequisites: Cleave, the Circle, Combat Reflexes, Mobility

Mountain charge: This movement takes it's name from a historic battle
between the a blademaster and a master warrior on a mountainside. The
opponent had higher ground and repeatedly used the angle of the
mountain to his advantage to rush the blademaster. Undaunted, the
blademaster simply returned the same kind of charge without the benefit
on an incline. A blademaster with this feat may make a charge attack
without the prerequisite distance having been covered (in fact, he need
not move at all, in regards to grid mobility).
Prerequisites: the Circle

The Charge of Many Slashes: A blademaster need not think about the
attack. it happens around him before his mind is aware of the danger.
This feat allows a blademaster to make a full move, attacking one
threatned opponent per 5-foot square of movement. He may only make one
attack per 5 feet and each attack suffers a cumulative -2 penalty from
those previous (-2, -4, -6, etc). This is considered a full round
action, but the blademaster may take up to his full move.
Prerequisites: the Circle, mobility, combat reflexes

Ranged Defense: The blademaster with this feat may use his sword to
deflect incoming ranged attacks (DM discretion on non-material
attacks). In all other ways this ability functions as the feat Deflect
Arrows.
Prerequisites: the Circle, weapon focus: sword.

*****


So that's it. I have a few problems with it. I don't know that I
think the level seven power is really a decent power level for level 7
of a prestige class. Also, i wanted to use this class to give more
options (the weapon master is really just about doing more damage more
than anyhting) and this does increase damage but I think also gives the
blademaster some neat options. However, I fear that the bonus feats
are being depended on heavily for the combat versatility. Should I
remove some feats from the bonus feat list and make sure it's all stuff
that can provide the kinds of options I want?

Other than that, thoughts? Opinions? Like it, hate it? What would
you change?

 

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freakybaby wrote:
> "Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:1109253448.366215.236930@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Alright. i think i'm done with this. The new blademaster PrC.
> >
> > Prerequisites: BAB +5, Balance: 4 ranks, Tumble: 5 ranks, Combat
> > reflexes, Quickdraw, Weapon focus: sword. Must be trained by a
> > blademaster (and must be proficient with a sword)
> >
> > BAB progression: good (1-10)
> > Fort save: poor (0-3)
> > Ref save: good (2-7)
> > Will save: intermediate (1-5)
> > Skill points: 2+int
>
> <snip.
>
> > Other than that, thoughts? Opinions? Like it, hate it? What
would
> > you change?
>
> What are the class skills?

Sorry, I don't use class skills IMC (barring skills that are unique to
a class) but I suppose they would be bluff, tumble, concentration,
intimidate, jump, balance, knowledge (tactics or warfare if you use
that sort of thing), and maybe sense motive (to prevent feinting) and
listen (due to alertness of the circle or some such).

 

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Peter Knutsen wrote:
> Anivair wrote:
> > Alright. i think i'm done with this. The new blademaster PrC.
> [...]
> > BAB progression: good (1-10)
> > Fort save: poor (0-3)
> > Ref save: good (2-7)
> > Will save: intermediate (1-5)
>
> There's no official precedence for "intermediate" save
> goodness, is there?

Not in the SRD, but the Wheel of time had quite a few of them. it was
a pretty easy upgrade. 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5. Easy as pie. I just like
hte idea of them.

> > Skill points: 2+int
> > Abilities by level (explinations later):
> [...]
>
> What's the hit dice?
>
> As for class skills, don't most PC-grade character classes
> get Craft (any) and Profession (any)? If so, do you have any
> particular reason for not giving those as class skills to
> the Blademaster?

No, i don't and I'll include them.

Hit dice will be d10. Sorry, I use grim-n-gritty in all my games so
I'm not used to having to include it.

 

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Anivair wrote:

> So that's it. I have a few problems with it. I don't know that I
> think the level seven power is really a decent power level for level
7
> of a prestige class.

A thought on the level seven power.

It sounds really good and it sort of is. You can go full defense (+6
AC for a blademaster) and still make an attack of opportunity on anyone
that enters your circle. But that's it. You can, of course, move away
from the opponant every round and they probably won't have a very good
chance of hitting you at +6 to your AC, but then again you could do the
same thing with expertise, more or less. Expertise can give you +5 to
your AC and at that level you will have 3 attacks per round, so you're
more likely to do better damage with expertise.

Granted, it's a phillosophy as well as a mechanic and attaing that
level shows an implicid understanding of a large part of hte
blademaster phillosophy, but it just feels like I've got a level seven
prestige class power that is slightly less cool than combat expertise.

 

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Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> Anivair wrote:
> > Peter Knutsen wrote:
> > >
> > > There's no official precedence for "intermediate" save
> > > goodness, is there?
> >
> > Not in the SRD, but the Wheel of time had quite a few of
> > them. it was a pretty easy upgrade. 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5.
> > Easy as pie. I just like hte idea of them.
>
> Unfortunately, this is a poorly-designed intermediate save
> progression. Keith Davies derived the formulae for the Good and Poor
> progressions, and added a medium progression between them:
>
> Good Save
> 2 + floor( level / 2)
> Medium Save
> 1 + floor( level / 2.5)
> Poor Save
> 0 + floor( level / 3)
>
> So Medium goes: 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,5,5,5, etc. This stays
consistently
> between the other two (20th level by the WoT method: +10; 20th level
> by Keith's method: +9). Little difference in levels 1-10 (only two
> levels, in fact), but accuracy recommends using Keith's version.

Ahh . . . I can't say it's that big a deal here. the difference is one
for a prestige class (it means that at level 7 it goesn't go up but
after that the progression isn't different). Really, given that it's
only ten levels I'd almost prefer the easier progression, but for a
full class I can see the point.

 

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"Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1109253448.366215.236930@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Alright. i think i'm done with this. The new blademaster PrC.
>
> Prerequisites: BAB +5, Balance: 4 ranks, Tumble: 5 ranks, Combat
> reflexes, Quickdraw, Weapon focus: sword. Must be trained by a
> blademaster (and must be proficient with a sword)
>
> BAB progression: good (1-10)
> Fort save: poor (0-3)
> Ref save: good (2-7)
> Will save: intermediate (1-5)
> Skill points: 2+int

<snip.

> Other than that, thoughts? Opinions? Like it, hate it? What would
> you change?

What are the class skills?

 

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Anivair wrote:
> Peter Knutsen wrote:
> >
> > There's no official precedence for "intermediate" save
> > goodness, is there?
>
> Not in the SRD, but the Wheel of time had quite a few of
> them. it was a pretty easy upgrade. 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5.
> Easy as pie. I just like hte idea of them.

Unfortunately, this is a poorly-designed intermediate save
progression. Keith Davies derived the formulae for the Good and Poor
progressions, and added a medium progression between them:

Good Save
2 + floor( level / 2)
Medium Save
1 + floor( level / 2.5)
Poor Save
0 + floor( level / 3)

So Medium goes: 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,5,5,5, etc. This stays consistently
between the other two (20th level by the WoT method: +10; 20th level
by Keith's method: +9). Little difference in levels 1-10 (only two
levels, in fact), but accuracy recommends using Keith's version.

--
Nik
- remove vermin from email address to reply.

 

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Keith Davies wrote:

> Consider instead 'treated as if he rolled a natural 20 for his
> initiative'. This gives others *some* chance to beat it, and removes
> the need for handling multiple 'he goes first' effects.

I had considered that but I've always been a fan of absoloutes. This
stems from the Scavenger trillogy idea that you will know your draw is
fast enough when you can outdraw yourself in the mirror. It's worth
noting that this ability only works while in hte circle (which is not
all the time until, possibly, fifth level). In a game that is not mine
I can see it goint that way. In most of my games the difference is
academic, but I see the point.

> 'Divine Strike'... misleading name, sounds like a paladin or cleric
> thing. I'd change the name.
>
> Wow. *way* powerful ability.

Again, from the scavenger trillogy. The idea is that the perfect draw
and strike are so fast and precise as to have not really happened. The
divine is perfection and though you can't attain it you can get very
close. This also stems from the cultural use. The blademasters view
their teacher as a god. But for any other game it would be worth
changing. it's flavor. As for the power, ths is almost verbatim the
ability as taken from sword and fist. There are a few small
differences. One (my favorite) is that instead of simply doing maximum
damage you may choose to do any ammount of damage form one point to
your maximum. A small difference, but terribly important, esspecially
because I wanted to move away fro the idea that the class is just out
to do more damage, but not weaken the ability. Second: in any other
game, I'd say that the last bit should be 3/day/level (blademaster
level), but IMC the difference between 3/day/level and at will is
almost academic (it's reasonably low on combat) so I changed it for
flavor. I would recomend that a normally balanced game use 3/day/lvl.


> I don't think it was ever settled that a combatant *can't* take AoO
in
> full defense. I remember that one raging a couple of months ago.

>From the SRD: "You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a
+4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of
this action. You can't combine total defense with fighting
defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since
both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You
can't make attacks of opportunity while using total defense."

I'm actually considering combining this withthe previous ability
(breached circle) just because it seems a touch weak for a seventh
level prestige class ability.

> > Perfect Circle
> > Using this ability, the blademaster is always assumed to be taking
10
> > to maintain his circle as a free action. If this would allow him
to
> > enter the circle, then he is always assumed to be in it unless he
> > lowers it. If it would not, he may still roll normally.
>
> This equates to 'Take 10 when entering the Circle', since you made no
> earlier mention of having to maintain it -- just roll to enter it.

Sorry. I forgt to add that. My preferance right now is either "until
the end of the combat" or "3+ your wisdom modifier in rounds". I'm
open to suggestions.


> Could he take Improved Critical: Longsword, though? "blademaster's
> sword" could mean here "sword the blademaster uses", or the very
> slightly different sword mentioned in an earlier paragraph.
>
> Ambiguity.

I think I said earlier that all feats relating to a weapon type
(greatsword, longsword, shortsword) can be applied to teh blademaster
swords. they aren't really different swords so much as they are
variations made specifically withthis class in mind. My primary
reason, though, was to avoid the extra convenient "gosh, i just happen
to have a focus in this incredibly rare sword . . . what do you mean I
can join your club" angle that I hate in connection with prestige
classes. The swords are more setting based. Optional. And I did mean
the blademaster's chosen sword (the one he is focused in for the
purpose of taking the class).

> > Defensive Mastery: This feat follows the logic of the Divine
strike
> > out to defense. A Blademaster perfects the defense of his blade
and
> > moves in concert with it out of pure instinct. A blademaster with
this
> > feat may add his blademaster level to his defense score while in
his
> > Circle.
> > Prerequisites: The Circle, Combat Expertise, Dodge
>
> That is a *big* defense bonus. I can't see someone *not* taking it,
if
> available.

True. Then again, i use grim-n-gritty. their defense may already be
good enough. but the real point is that some of these, i wanted to
make class abilities. i think most blademasters should have this
ability. But it didn't really fit the progression well so I included
it as an option. DO you think it's unbalanced, or just too tempting to
pass up?

> > Sight of the Circle: A blademaster with this level of training is
> > innately aware of all things in their circle whether they can see
them
> > or not. While in her circle a blademaster with this feat suffers
no
> > miss chance at all for fighting blind.
> > Prerequisites: the Circle, Blind-Fight
>
> This one's not bad. A little good, but uncommon application.

It's my favorite of them and I think it embodies the feeling I was
going for with the circle as an extention of the consciousness.

> > Supreme Cleave: A blademaster is a mobile and perfectly tuned
weapon on
> > the field of battle. A blademaster with this feat may make a five
foot
> > move between cleave attempts. He may only move up to his full move
> > with this feat, however.
> > Prerequisites: Cleave, the Circle, Combat Reflexes, Mobility
>
> *must* add Great Cleave. Cleave allows only a single additional
attack
> per round. This ability is markedly better than Great Cleave, and
the
> prereqs are trivial for this class.

Noted. that was an oversight on my part. Consider it added.

> > Mountain charge: This movement takes it's name from a historic
battle
> > between the a blademaster and a master warrior on a mountainside.
The
> > opponent had higher ground and repeatedly used the angle of the
> > mountain to his advantage to rush the blademaster. Undaunted, the
> > blademaster simply returned the same kind of charge without the
benefit
> > on an incline. A blademaster with this feat may make a charge
attack
> > without the prerequisite distance having been covered (in fact, he
need
> > not move at all, in regards to grid mobility).
> > Prerequisites: the Circle
>
> If anything, I'd make this a general feat, not requiring the circle.
It
> just exchanges AC for attack bonus.

A mot point since you can't take the class without the Circle and so
far it's not ona list for others. Right now it's somehting only the
blademasters know of, technique-wise, but I'd certainly consider
allowing it's use outside the class later.

> > The Charge of Many Slashes: A blademaster need not think about the
> > attack. it happens around him before his mind is aware of the
danger.
> > This feat allows a blademaster to make a full move, attacking one
> > threatned opponent per 5-foot square of movement. He may only make
one
> > attack per 5 feet and each attack suffers a cumulative -2 penalty
from
> > those previous (-2, -4, -6, etc). This is considered a full round
> > action, but the blademaster may take up to his full move.
> > Prerequisites: the Circle, mobility, combat reflexes
>
> Mechanically unsound, I think. I'd consider instead 'you may take a
> five-foot step between your iterative attacks'. The prereqs as they
> stand are trivial and this is a very powerful ability -- more
attacks,
> at higher attack bonus, and greater movement. A human fighter using
> this ability gets to take *more* -- potentially many more -- attacks
> than in a full attack... a human barbarian would get a revolting
number
> of attacks.
>
> Not balanced as written, and again, mechanically unsound -- it
doesn't
> fit anything else.
>
> One thing that goes a long way toward balancing it, though, is that
just
> about everyone attacked with this ability gets an AoO on him.

True. But I agree, it is a bit devastating. My origional idea was to
just allow a full move and a full attack in hte same round provided no
more than one attack was made in any one square, but i modled this off
a feat that was proposed on this board a while back. I'll drop it back
to my origional idea.

> > Ranged Defense: The blademaster with this feat may use his sword to
> > deflect incoming ranged attacks (DM discretion on non-material
> > attacks). In all other ways this ability functions as the feat
Deflect
> > Arrows.
> > Prerequisites: the Circle, weapon focus: sword.
>
> Needs something else. Prereqs here are trivial.

True, but deflect arrows has a prerequisite. I just thought I'd keep
it as close as possible.

> Overall, I think this class is way too powerful for what it costs.
> Granted, it really only works well in a certain niche, but it's a
damn
> big niche. Given the powers granted by the class, the prerequisites
are
> very low, and the special feats outlined here often have prereqs that
> are trivial for a member of this class.

that much is true. But I am morally opposed to having to write out
your character progression from level one so that you qualify for a
prestige class. I'd far rather my gamers play their characters
properly, making in character choices, and at a later level still have
the ability to train to join a prestige class before the campaign is
over. It may not suit everyone's tastes. For those peope, I would
suggest adding spring attack back in as a prerequisite (as in
weaponmaster).

> The class powers are quite powerful in their applicability, and it
looks
> like as long as the character is in melee, they *will* be applicable.
> I'd tighten them up, more than a little. Disallowing the use of the
> powers when wearing any armor heavier than light (or any armor at
all)
> or encumbered would be appropriate and probably help quite a bit.

Ouch. I had meant ot include that, actually. Light armor only. Sorry
to have left it out. The circle can only be used in light or no armor
and with a maximum of a buckler (I'd consider a light shield but that's
all).

 

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Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> Keith Davies wrote:
> > Anivair wrote:
>
> One thing I noticed: the table lists "Specialization" at 1st level,
> but you don't mention what it is. If you meant Weapon
Specialization,
> the blademaster already gets enough goodies. I'd drop it completely.

I would too, but the concept already exists in hte game. I personally
dislike a feat that does notig but add damage, but it's also a symbol
of having mastered a weapon, and if anyone should posess it, it's these
people. What have they done if not mastered a weapon?

> Agreed. Drop the "at will". To continue the progression, give them
> 3/day at 8th (which gives the epic blademaster another use/day at
> 11th, 14th, etc.), and make the character choose to use it *before*
> his attack roll. Otherwise, this is just massive guaranteed damage.
> (Why ever deal less damage than max; why use it on anything *but* a
> crit; and once you can use it at will, why not use it on every hit?)

Did I say at will? I meant constant. The idea being that by that
level the blademaster doesn't factor chance into his strikes at all.
As for crits, you have to declare it's use before you attack. I should
have mentioned that. And as I said above, for any other campaign but
mine I do recommend going to 3/day/level.

> I think it shouldn't overrule the 5-foot rule. In addition, it's
> oddly worded and incomplete. I'd use: "When in the Circle (see
> above), a blademaster with this ability is so skilled at defending
his
> space, he may take an attack of opportunity against anyone entering
> his "circle" (threatened area) who is moving more than 5 feet. This
> ability does not grant extra attacks of opportunity, and it does not
> remove the restriction against taking more than one attack of
> opportunity against any given provocation."

I don't think the bit about not alowing extra attacks of opportunity is
needed. Or it shouldn't be. I would only mention if it DID (though
for the masses it may be important). Though to be honest I dont' see
any reason to not include a 5-foot step. What it means is that you
can't engage a blademaster without giving them the opportunity to
strike you before you strike them. that's the point. It's part of the
whole going first thing. Otherwise you could wait until the
blademaster has made an action of some sort and then attack, leaving
them basically wide ope, which, IMO, should not occur. they don't
become open.

> I may have been offline, and missed that one. That said, I have
never
> assumed that Total Defense precluded AoOs.

it wasn't clarrified in 3E, maybe, but the SRD makes it very clear.


> Also, may want to check the existing text for Supreme Cleave, which
> was at least in the 3.0 Master Samurai PrC, and is probably in some
> 3.5 PrC somewhere.

I believe it's the same. if it's not, the intent was for it to be the
same. I was ruing off memory, there.

> Add Dex 13, and this is half of the version of Deflect Arrows that I
> use (I limit it to once per round, though). I thought you and I had
> talked about DA before. *shrug* Anivair, if you'd like, I can post
> my revised Deflect Arrows for your review. Let me know.

Sure. it can't hurt. I was just trying to make sure that it didn't
basically become a better deflect arrows with no prerequisites.

> I agree with Keith's conclusion, though I think with the changes
Keith
> and I have suggested, and limiting the Circle to light or no armor,
> the class becomes strong, but balanced.

Thanks for the input. It was most helpful (esspecially in pointing out
holes in the wording and the logic). I will certainly be making use of
the vast majority of your suggestions.

 

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Anivair wrote:
> Alright. i think i'm done with this. The new blademaster PrC.
[...]
> BAB progression: good (1-10)
> Fort save: poor (0-3)
> Ref save: good (2-7)
> Will save: intermediate (1-5)

There's no official precedence for "intermediate" save
goodness, is there?

> Skill points: 2+int
> Abilities by level (explinations later):
[...]

What's the hit dice?

As for class skills, don't most PC-grade character classes
get Craft (any) and Profession (any)? If so, do you have any
particular reason for not giving those as class skills to
the Blademaster?


--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

 

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Anivair wrote:
> Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> > Anivair wrote:
> > > Peter Knutsen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > There's no official precedence for "intermediate" save
> > > > goodness, is there?
> > >
> > > Not in the SRD, but the Wheel of time had quite a few of
> > > them. it was a pretty easy upgrade. 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5.
> > > Easy as pie. I just like hte idea of them.
> >
> > Unfortunately, this is a poorly-designed intermediate save
> > progression. Keith Davies derived the formulae for the
> > Good and Poor progressions, and added a medium progression
> > between them:
> >
> > Good Save
> > 2 + floor( level / 2)
> > Medium Save
> > 1 + floor( level / 2.5)
> > Poor Save
> > 0 + floor( level / 3)
> >
> > So Medium goes: 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,5,5,5, etc. This stays
> > consistently between the other two (20th level by the WoT
> > method: +10; 20th level by Keith's method: +9). Little
> > difference in levels 1-10 (only two levels, in fact), but
> > accuracy recommends using Keith's version.
>
> Ahh . . . I can't say it's that big a deal here.

Completely understood. I'm just nitpicky, and I like elegance.

> the difference is one for a prestige class (it means that
> at level 7 it goesn't go up but after that the progression
> isn't different). Really, given that it's only ten levels
> I'd almost prefer the easier progression, but for a full
> class I can see the point.

Two places, actually. 7th and 9th. I prefer using the more accurate
progression for any class, because I, like Keith, stack save
progressions in order to prevent weirdness about massive bonuses from
multiclassers stacking "Good" saves.

But, obviously, what works for you works for you, and this is so
*completely* a pointless nitpick that it makes little difference
either way.

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Keith Davies wrote:
> Anivair wrote:

One thing I noticed: the table lists "Specialization" at 1st level,
but you don't mention what it is. If you meant Weapon Specialization,
the blademaster already gets enough goodies. I'd drop it completely.

> > Divine Strike
> > The actuality of the divine lies in many guises, the perfect
> > draw, the perfect strike, and the perfect kill. Using this
> > power, the blademaster leaves no room for error or chance.
> > He strikes where he wants and how he wants. Mechanically,
> > the blademaster may choose any amount of damage ranging from
> > one point up to the maximum allowed for a strike (including
> > critical damage, etc) for his damage. Therefore, a
> > blademaster wielding a longsword could choose to do between
> > one and eight points of damage on a successful attack, at
> > his option. He may use this ability once per day per
> > blademaster level at second level, twice per day per
> > blademaster level at fifth level, and at will at level 8.
>
> 'Divine Strike'... misleading name, sounds like a paladin or
> cleric thing. I'd change the name.
>
> Wow. *way* powerful ability.

Agreed. Drop the "at will". To continue the progression, give them
3/day at 8th (which gives the epic blademaster another use/day at
11th, 14th, etc.), and make the character choose to use it *before*
his attack roll. Otherwise, this is just massive guaranteed damage.
(Why ever deal less damage than max; why use it on anything *but* a
crit; and once you can use it at will, why not use it on every hit?)

> > Breached Circle
> > The Circle is the blademasters best defense. When in the circle
> > a blademaster with this ability may extract an attack of
> > opportunity from anyone entering his circle (threatened area),
> > so skilled is he at defending the space.
>
> This one I don't have a particular problem with. I assume you
> want it to overrule the '5-foot steps never provoke AoO' rule;
> I wouldn't do it that way.

I think it shouldn't overrule the 5-foot rule. In addition, it's
oddly worded and incomplete. I'd use: "When in the Circle (see
above), a blademaster with this ability is so skilled at defending his
space, he may take an attack of opportunity against anyone entering
his "circle" (threatened area) who is moving more than 5 feet. This
ability does not grant extra attacks of opportunity, and it does not
remove the restriction against taking more than one attack of
opportunity against any given provocation."

> > "the best attack is not to attack"
> > A blademaster with this ability had truly come to understand
> > this maxim. He doesn't always seek his opponent's downfall,
> > but lets it come to him as they desire it. Using this
> > ability a blademaster may make attacks of opportunity while
> > he is in full defense mode.
>
> I don't think it was ever settled that a combatant *can't*
> take AoO in full defense. I remember that one raging a
> couple of months ago.

I may have been offline, and missed that one. That said, I have never
assumed that Total Defense precluded AoOs.

> > Whirlwind Flow
> > The Blademaster of this level attains the whirlwind Flow, a
> > perfect attack that encompasses the entirety of his circle in
> > one fluid motion. Mechanically, the blademaster performs a
> > whirlwind attack. This is a standard action as opposed to a
> > full round action. He makes an attack versus everyone he
> > threatens at his highest base attack bonus. This action does
> > not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the blademaster
> > already has the Whirlwind Attack feat he may replace it with
> > this ability and select a bonus feat instead.
>
> At will?
>
> Not balanced -- it's easily worth more than a single feat (to
> take WA you need Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack... it's possible
> to enter this class with *none* of them). It is much more
> efficient to *not* take WA (which frees up four feats, counting
> WA) and wait for this ability.
>
> I'd rework it.

Agreed. I'd do something like "Gains Dodge. If has Dodge, gains
Mobility. If has Mobility, gains Spring Attack. If has Spring
Attack, gains Whirlwind Attack. If has Whirlwind Attack, may make WAs
as a standard action." This is balanced precisely *because* none of
those feats are prereqs for this class.

Personally, I'd like to see some bonus feats for PrCs done as feat
trees like this.

> > Bonus Feats
> > Occasionally, a blademaster receives bonus feats. The feats
> > must come from the following list. the blademaster must still
> > meet the prerequisites for these feats and where applicable
> > they apply to the blademaster's sword (for example a blademaster
> > may not take Improved Critical: longbow as a bonus feat).
> > (feats described below are new feats that require the Circle).
> > Any blademaster feat with the Circle as a prerequisite may only
> > be used while within a blademaster's Circle.
>
> Could he take Improved Critical: Longsword, though? "blademaster's
> sword" could mean here "sword the blademaster uses", or the very
> slightly different sword mentioned in an earlier paragraph.
>
> Ambiguity.

I'd do "a sword with which he has Weapon Focus", to use the precedent
set by the prerequisite.

> > Defensive Mastery: This feat follows the logic of the Divine
> > strike out to defense. A Blademaster perfects the defense of
> > his blade and moves in concert with it out of pure instinct.
> > A blademaster with this feat may add his blademaster level to
> > his defense score while in his Circle.
> > Prerequisites: The Circle, Combat Expertise, Dodge
>
> That is a *big* defense bonus. I can't see someone *not* taking it, if
> available.

Since the Divine strike is a uses/day ability, I'd add "Using this
feat uses up a Divine strike use for the day, and lasts a number of
rounds equal to your blademaster level." Seems to balance it a bit
better.

> > Sight of the Circle: A blademaster with this level of training
> > is innately aware of all things in their circle whether they can
> > see them or not. While in her circle a blademaster with this
> > feat suffers no miss chance at all for fighting blind.
> > Prerequisites: the Circle, Blind-Fight
>
> This one's not bad. A little good, but uncommon application.

And requires Blind-Fight already which, again, is not a prereq. This
one seems fine as-is. It's basically just "blindsight 5' while in
Circle", which seems fine to me.

> > Supreme Cleave: A blademaster is a mobile and perfectly tuned
> > weapon on the field of battle. A blademaster with this feat
> > may make a five foot move between cleave attempts. He may
> > only move up to his full move with this feat, however.
> > Prerequisites: Cleave, the Circle, Combat Reflexes, Mobility
>
> *must* add Great Cleave. Cleave allows only a single additional
> attack per round. This ability is markedly better than Great
> Cleave, and the prereqs are trivial for this class.

Also, may want to check the existing text for Supreme Cleave, which
was at least in the 3.0 Master Samurai PrC, and is probably in some
3.5 PrC somewhere.

> > Mountain charge: This movement takes it's name from a historic
> > battle between the a blademaster and a master warrior on a
> > mountainside. The opponent had higher ground and repeatedly
> > used the angle of the mountain to his advantage to rush the
> > blademaster. Undaunted, the blademaster simply returned the
> > same kind of charge without the benefit on an incline. A
> > blademaster with this feat may make a charge attack without
> > the prerequisite distance having been covered (in fact, he
> > need not move at all, in regards to grid mobility).
> > Prerequisites: the Circle
>
> If anything, I'd make this a general feat, not requiring the
> circle. It just exchanges AC for attack bonus.

Agreed. Leaving it as a Circle feat is nice flavor, though,
especially with the legend behind it.

> > The Charge of Many Slashes: A blademaster need not think
> > about the attack. it happens around him before his mind is
> > aware of the danger. This feat allows a blademaster to make
> > a full move, attacking one threatned opponent per 5-foot
> > square of movement. He may only make one attack per 5 feet
> > and each attack suffers a cumulative -2 penalty from those
> > previous (-2, -4, -6, etc). This is considered a full round
> > action, but the blademaster may take up to his full move.
> > Prerequisites: the Circle, mobility, combat reflexes
>
> Mechanically unsound, I think. I'd consider instead 'you
> may take a five-foot step between your iterative attacks'.

Which synergizes well thematically with Supreme Cleave, too.

> The prereqs as they stand are trivial and this is a very
> powerful ability -- more attacks, at higher attack bonus,
> and greater movement. A human fighter using this ability
> gets to take *more* -- potentially many more -- attacks
> than in a full attack... a human barbarian would get a
> revolting number of attacks.

And anything with a higher move would become absolutely disgusting.

> One thing that goes a long way toward balancing it, though,
> is that just about everyone attacked with this ability gets
> an AoO on him.

Perhaps a balancer for this feat (if the feat *must* remain as-is)
would be that the CoMS provokes attacks of opportunity as if moving,
but draws them when entering a threatened space during a CoMS.
Thematically, this could represent lowering the defenses to make the
CoMS.

> > Ranged Defense: The blademaster with this feat may use his
> > sword to deflect incoming ranged attacks (DM discretion on
> > non-material attacks). In all other ways this ability
> > functions as the feat Deflect Arrows.
> > Prerequisites: the Circle, weapon focus: sword.
>
> Needs something else. Prereqs here are trivial.

Add Dex 13, and this is half of the version of Deflect Arrows that I
use (I limit it to once per round, though). I thought you and I had
talked about DA before. *shrug* Anivair, if you'd like, I can post
my revised Deflect Arrows for your review. Let me know.

> Overall, I think this class is way too powerful for what it
> costs. Granted, it really only works well in a certain niche,
> but it's a damn big niche. Given the powers granted by the
> class, the prerequisites are very low, and the special feats
> outlined here often have prereqs that are trivial for a member
> of this class.
>
> The class powers are quite powerful in their applicability, and
> it looks like as long as the character is in melee, they *will*
> be applicable. I'd tighten them up, more than a little.
> Disallowing the use of the powers when wearing any armor heavier
> than light (or any armor at all) or encumbered would be
> appropriate and probably help quite a bit.

I agree with Keith's conclusion, though I think with the changes Keith
and I have suggested, and limiting the Circle to light or no armor,
the class becomes strong, but balanced.

Hope this helps.

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Anivair wrote:
> Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> >
> > One thing I noticed: the table lists "Specialization" at 1st
> > level, but you don't mention what it is. If you meant Weapon
> > Specialization, the blademaster already gets enough goodies.
> > I'd drop it completely.
>
> I would too, but the concept already exists in hte game.

Then I'd allow them to *select* Weapon Specialization (any sword) as
bonus feats, but don't give it to 'em for free. *Especially* not with
the Divine strike (or whatever you may rename it) ability.

> > Agreed. Drop the "at will". To continue the progression, give
> > them 3/day at 8th (which gives the epic blademaster another
> > use/day at 11th, 14th, etc.), and make the character choose to
> > use it *before* his attack roll. Otherwise, this is just massive
> > guaranteed damage. (Why ever deal less damage than max; why use
> > it on anything *but* a crit; and once you can use it at will,
> > why not use it on every hit?)
>
> Did I say at will? I meant constant. The idea being that by
> that level the blademaster doesn't factor chance into his
> strikes at all.

At will ~= constant, so that's not the issue. I disagree *massively*
with the concept, if it's constant. As existing in the game, nothing
but *greater deities* gets that ability. Since it's foolish not to
use it at full, on every attack, once you have it constant, it's way
too good.

> As for crits, you have to declare it's use before you attack. I
> should have mentioned that. And as I said above, for any other
> campaign but mine I do recommend going to 3/day/level.

I think you may have underestimated its power, even in your campaign.
It's a better ability than any other class gets, ever.

> I don't think the bit about not alowing extra attacks of
> opportunity is needed. Or it shouldn't be. I would only mention
> if it DID (though for the masses it may be important).

Repetition of rules is always nice, as long as they remain consistent.


> Though to be honest I dont' see any reason to not include a
> 5-foot step. What it means is that you can't engage a
> blademaster without giving them the opportunity to strike
> you before you strike them. that's the point. It's part of
> the whole going first thing.

Okay, I can understand that rationale. I just don't like it, since
there's no such thing as a perfect mortal.

> > Anivair, if you'd like, I can post my revised Deflect Arrows
> > for your review. Let me know.
>
> Sure. it can't hurt. I was just trying to make sure that it
> didn't basically become a better deflect arrows with no
> prerequisites.

It's basically an amalgam of 3.0 and 3.5, with some suggestions
mentioned here thrown in.

DEFLECT ARROWS (General)
[flavor text]
Prereq: Dex 13, Improved Unarmed Strike or Weapon Focus.
Benefit: You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) or
be holding a weapon with which you have Weapon Focus to use this feat.
Once per round when you would normally be hit with a ranged weapon,
you may deflect it so that you take no damage from it. You must be
aware of the attack and not flatfooted, and make a successful Reflex
save (DC 15) to deflect the ranged weapon. Attempting to deflect a
ranged weapon doesn't count as an action. Unusually massive ranged
weapons, such as boulders hurled by giants, and ranged attacks
generated by spell effects, such as /[Melf's] acid arrow/, can't be
deflected.
Special: A monk may select Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat at 2nd
level, even if she does not meet the prerequisites, but may only use
the bonus feat with an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon.
A fighter may select Deflect Arrows as one of his fighter bonus
feats.

> > I agree with Keith's conclusion, though I think with the
> > changes Keith and I have suggested, and limiting the Circle
> > to light or no armor, the class becomes strong, but balanced.
>
> Thanks for the input. It was most helpful (esspecially in
> pointing out holes in the wording and the logic). I will
> certainly be making use of the vast majority of your suggestions.

Glad to help!

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Keith Davies wrote:
> Peter Knutsen <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>>There's no official precedence for "intermediate" save
>>goodness, is there?
>
> Star Wars has it (average of Good and Poor). ISTR seeing it used
> elsewhere, but don't remember where.

Thanks for clearing that up. If WotC is using it, then it's
good enough for me.

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Nikolas Landauer wrote:

> At will ~= constant, so that's not the issue. I disagree *massively*
> with the concept, if it's constant. As existing in the game, nothing
> but *greater deities* gets that ability. Since it's foolish not to
> use it at full, on every attack, once you have it constant, it's way
> too good.

I don't think it is hte same as constant. I can see the instintc to go
that way, but a lot of things are different, even though they're small.
Firstky, if it's at will it can be turned off. A constant ability
cannot. And there are plenty of reasons not to do maximum damage
(esspecially in a grim-n-gritty game such as the one I run). I really
did try to change the wording to discourage the idea that it's max
damage all the time. Though I agree that in a game that is not mine
3/day/level is probably the way to go.

<snip deflect arrows>

I like that. I'll give it some thought.

 

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Nikolas Landauer wrote:

> > Not balanced -- it's easily worth more than a single feat (to
> > take WA you need Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack... it's possible
> > to enter this class with *none* of them). It is much more
> > efficient to *not* take WA (which frees up four feats, counting
> > WA) and wait for this ability.
> >
> > I'd rework it.
>
> Agreed. I'd do something like "Gains Dodge. If has Dodge, gains
> Mobility. If has Mobility, gains Spring Attack. If has Spring
> Attack, gains Whirlwind Attack. If has Whirlwind Attack, may make
WAs
> as a standard action." This is balanced precisely *because* none of
> those feats are prereqs for this class.

Too complicated for me, esspecially since the progression of feats for
this doean't make much sense. oing from spring attack to whirlwind is
fine mechanically, but what training do you get that encompasses those
feats?

I changed the wording so that instead of functioning like whirlwind
attack the blademaster only gets to roll once if he uses this ability.
He applies that roll to everyone around him. It's similar, but not the
same and it means that one poor roll results in a totally wasted round,
rather than one wasted swing, which I think is a nice balancing
factor).

 

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Quentin Stephens wrote:
> "Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:1109253448.366215.236930@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Alright. i think i'm done with this. The new blademaster PrC.
> >
> > Prerequisites: BAB +5, Balance: 4 ranks, Tumble: 5 ranks, Combat
> > reflexes, Quickdraw, Weapon focus: sword. Must be trained by a
> > blademaster (and must be proficient with a sword)
>
> Might be better to demand Weapon Specialisation or even better.

I thought about that, but teh idea of requiring 4 levels of fighter
doesn't work for me either. there are other combat classes that seek
to master a weapon. (noteably, Hong's martial artist class, whihc i
think flows into this class very nicely).

 

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"Anivair" <anivair@gmail.com> wrote in
news:1109253448.366215.236930@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

> Alright. i think i'm done with this. The new blademaster PrC.
>
> Prerequisites: BAB +5, Balance: 4 ranks, Tumble: 5 ranks, Combat
> reflexes, Quickdraw, Weapon focus: sword. Must be trained by a
> blademaster (and must be proficient with a sword)

Might be better to demand Weapon Specialisation or even better.

 

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Anivair wrote:
> Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> >
> > At will ~= constant, so that's not the issue. I disagree
> > *massively* with the concept, if it's constant. As
> > existing in the game, nothing but *greater deities* gets
> > that ability. Since it's foolish not to use it at full,
> > on every attack, once you have it constant, it's way too
> > good.
>
> I don't think it is hte same as constant. I can see the
> instintc to go that way, but a lot of things are
> different, even though they're small.

At will--unlimited duration is effectively the same as constant.

> Firstky, if it's at will it can be turned off. A constant
> ability cannot.

Most can.

> And there are plenty of reasons not to do maximum damage
> (esspecially in a grim-n-gritty game such as the one I run).

Why, exactly? In grim-n-gritty, it seems *MORE* useful to always do
maximum damage. In life or death fights, it is foolish not to use
one's abilities to their utmost.

The only instance where maximum damage is undesirable is when trying
not to kill someone.

> I really did try to change the wording to discourage the
> idea that it's max damage all the time.

The wording makes that clear, but there's no effective way to
discourage that idea, as it remains foolish not to use it that way.

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Anivair wrote:
> Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> >
> > I'd do something like "Gains Dodge. If has Dodge, gains Mobility.
> > If has Mobility, gains Spring Attack. If has Spring Attack, gains
> > Whirlwind Attack. If has Whirlwind Attack, may make WAs as a
> > standard action." This is balanced precisely *because* none of
> > those feats are prereqs for this class.
>
> Too complicated for me, esspecially since the progression of feats
> for this doean't make much sense. oing from spring attack to
> whirlwind is fine mechanically, but what training do you get that
> encompasses those feats?

Same argument works for the feat prereqs, though. *shrug* It was
just an idea.

> I changed the wording so that instead of functioning like
> whirlwind attack the blademaster only gets to roll once if
> he uses this ability. He applies that roll to everyone
> around him. It's similar, but not the same and it means
> that one poor roll results in a totally wasted round,
> rather than one wasted swing, which I think is a nice
> balancing factor).

I don't. It makes the situation worse. Options good. On/off from
one roll situations bad. Here's another idea:

"
If the character has Whirlwind Attack, he may make Whirlwind
Attacks as standard actions, or combine them with Spring Attack (only
one foe can be selected to be the target of Spring Attack).
If the character does not have Whirlwind Attack, he gains the
ability to make two attacks at his highest base attack bonus (but at
-2 to all attacks until his next action, including these two) as a
standard action, which he can combine with Spring Attack (if he has
it), with the same restriction as above.
"

What do you think of this one? It was intended to mimic Manyshot for
melee.

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Keith Davies wrote:
> Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> > Keith Davies wrote:
> > > Anivair wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Divine Strike
<snip>
> > > > He may use this ability once per day per blademaster
> > > > level at second level, twice per day per blademaster
> > > > level at fifth level, and at will at level 8.
> > >
> > > 'Divine Strike'... misleading name, sounds like a
> > > paladin or cleric thing. I'd change the name.
> > >
> > > Wow. *way* powerful ability.
> >
> > Agreed. Drop the "at will". To continue the progression,
> > give them 3/day at 8th (which gives the epic blademaster
> > another use/day at 11th, 14th, etc.), and make the
> > character choose to use it *before* his attack roll.
> > Otherwise, this is just massive guaranteed damage. (Why
> > ever deal less damage than max; why use it on anything
> > *but* a crit; and once you can use it at will, why not
> > use it on every hit?)
>
> Unless I was hurting for class abilities, I'd probably
> keep it at $level/day and leave it at that -- find
> something else for the other levels. 24+ per day does
> come close to 'constant' or 'at will' for practical
> purposes.

Ack! I didn't notice that it was $LEVEL/day! I meant to suggest that
it should be ONCE/day, period, until 5th, when it went up to 2/day,
and 3/day at 8th. $level/day seems too much, to me.

> > I may have been offline, and missed that one. That said,
> > I have never assumed that Total Defense precluded AoOs.
>
> ISTR you were away from the group at the time. I didn't
> take part.

And I seem to be wrong. *shrug* Personally, I'll probably house rule
to allow AoO in Total Defense.

> > > > Whirlwind Flow
<snip>
> >
> > I'd do something like "Gains Dodge. If has Dodge, gains
> > Mobility. If has Mobility, gains Spring Attack. If has
> > Spring Attack, gains Whirlwind Attack. If has Whirlwind
> > Attack, may make WAs as a standard action." This is
> > balanced precisely *because* none of those feats are
> > prereqs for this class.
> >
> > Personally, I'd like to see some bonus feats for PrCs
> > done as feat trees like this.
>
> Same here. It fits character development/class
> progression better.
>
> I'd probably do it this way, too.

That said, I came up with a more flavorful alternative in a separate
response.

> It came to me that requiring the circle to be broken at
> times would help balance. One possibility would be to
> break it on movement -- the circle establishes 'your space'
> and changing that breaks the circle.
>
> However, a better option might be to treat the circle like
> psionic focus. You establish it as a standard action and
> keep it until you do something to break it. You can let it
> lapse at will, but certain actions will automatically break
> it. Suggested actions that break circle:
>
> . Divine Strike
> . Whirlwind Flow
> . Charge of Many Slashes

As well as anything that would break psionic focus: unconsciousness,
sleep, etc.

> I suggested reducing uses/day of Divine Strike to class
> level per day. If Divine Strike breaks the circle --
> especially if it's non-trivial to restore it -- by the
> time DS could see common use, there are strong reasons
> to *not* use it (big defense bonuses, etc.). DC20 to
> establish may be a little low; by the time you can take
> this class, DC20 is pretty damn easy to hit.

I think Divine Strike of class level per day is only okay *if* it
breaks the circle, and it is non-trivial to restore it. Otherwise,
even $level/day is too much for it, as I mentioned above.

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Nik
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Nikolas Landauer wrote:

> > And there are plenty of reasons not to do maximum damage
> > (esspecially in a grim-n-gritty game such as the one I run).
>
> Why, exactly? In grim-n-gritty, it seems *MORE* useful to always do
> maximum damage. In life or death fights, it is foolish not to use
> one's abilities to their utmost.
>
> The only instance where maximum damage is undesirable is when trying
> not to kill someone.

True. I don't know about other people's game, but IMC there are plenty
of times when that's the way to go. In fact, i'd say almost 50% of the
fights in my games have been in that vein. There are also internal
roleplaying reasons not to. It provides a way for the blademaster to
hold himself back a bit for whatever reason (lack of confidence, fear,
whatever).

> > I really did try to change the wording to discourage the
> > idea that it's max damage all the time.
>
> The wording makes that clear, but there's no effective way to
> discourage that idea, as it remains foolish not to use it that way.

Foolish under certain circumstances. But I do agree that in campaigns
other than mine 3/day/lervel is probably the best bet.

 

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Nikolas Landauer wrote:

> Ack! I didn't notice that it was $LEVEL/day! I meant to suggest
that
> it should be ONCE/day, period, until 5th, when it went up to 2/day,
> and 3/day at 8th. $level/day seems too much, to me.

That would be far too low (and it would imply that a good strike is
somehting rare for a blademaster which is not what I'mn going for).
Really, with the exception of hte 3/day/level difference this is
exactly the same as the ability granted to weaponmaster from sword and
fist. Didn't we debate that at the time, too? I suspect there were
people in both camps on it. But it's per class level, not characters
level, for the record.

> > It came to me that requiring the circle to be broken at
> > times would help balance. One possibility would be to
> > break it on movement -- the circle establishes 'your space'
> > and changing that breaks the circle.
> >
> > However, a better option might be to treat the circle like
> > psionic focus. You establish it as a standard action and
> > keep it until you do something to break it. You can let it
> > lapse at will, but certain actions will automatically break
> > it. Suggested actions that break circle:
> >
> > . Divine Strike
> > . Whirlwind Flow
> > . Charge of Many Slashes
>
> As well as anything that would break psionic focus: unconsciousness,
> sleep, etc.

That's actually not a bad idea.

 

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Anivair wrote:
> Nikolas Landauer wrote:

> > > And there are plenty of reasons not to do maximum damage
> > > (esspecially in a grim-n-gritty game such as the one I
> > > run).
> >
> > Why, exactly? In grim-n-gritty, it seems *MORE* useful
> > to always do maximum damage. In life or death fights,
> > it is foolish not to use one's abilities to their utmost.
> >
> > The only instance where maximum damage is undesirable is
> > when trying not to kill someone.
>
> True. I don't know about other people's game, but IMC
> there are plenty of times when that's the way to go. In
> fact, i'd say almost 50% of the fights in my games have
> been in that vein. There are also internal roleplaying
> reasons not to. It provides a way for the blademaster to
> hold himself back a bit for whatever reason (lack of
> confidence, fear, whatever).

I've revised my position.

It is *NEVER* useful to do less than maximum damage. If trying not to
kill someone: use *NONLETHAL* damage (and do maximum).

The way you've described this class, those reasons (lack of
confidence, fear, whatever) have *no* place in the makeup of this
class. Those would be valid reasons to *refuse* to allow a PC to take
this class.

> > > I really did try to change the wording to discourage
> > > the idea that it's max damage all the time.
> >
> > The wording makes that clear, but there's no effective
> > way to discourage that idea, as it remains foolish not
> > to use it that way.
>
> Foolish under certain circumstances.

See above. It is *always* foolish.

> But I do agree that in campaigns other than mine
> 3/day/lervel is probably the best bet.

3/day/level is *FAR* too high for any ability. This means it's *30*
times a day at 10th level. That's damn near the same as "at will" or
"constant".

1/day/level is fair, or more if it breaks the Circle.

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Nik
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Anivair wrote:
> Nikolas Landauer wrote:
> >
> > Ack! I didn't notice that it was $LEVEL/day! I meant to
> > suggest that it should be ONCE/day, period, until 5th,
> > when it went up to 2/day, and 3/day at 8th. $level/day
> > seems too much, to me.
>
> That would be far too low

It's an amazingly powerful ability.

> (and it would imply that a good strike is somehting rare
> for a blademaster which is not what I'mn going for).

That's represented by being *higher level*.

> Really, with the exception of hte 3/day/level difference
> this is exactly the same as the ability granted to
> weaponmaster from sword and fist. Didn't we debate that
> at the time, too?

The rest of this class is *far* better than the rest of weapon master.
*Far* better. And the number of times per day is absolutely a major
factor. 1-3/day is reasonable for very powerful abilities.
$level/day for prestige classes is reasonable for powerful abilities.
3/level/day is totally pointless, as it becomes effectively the same
as "always on" or "constant".

> > > It came to me that requiring the circle to be broken
> > > at times would help balance. One possibility would
> > > be to break it on movement -- the circle establishes
> > > 'your space' and changing that breaks the circle.
> > >
> > > However, a better option might be to treat the circle
> > > like psionic focus. You establish it as a standard
> > > action and keep it until you do something to break it.
> > > You can let it lapse at will, but certain actions will
> > > automatically break it. Suggested actions that break
> > > circle:
> > >
> > > . Divine Strike
> > > . Whirlwind Flow
> > > . Charge of Many Slashes
> >
> > As well as anything that would break psionic focus:
> > unconsciousness, sleep, etc.
>
> That's actually not a bad idea.

Keith's found that the XPH is a good source for ideas for other
mechanics, too. For his (rather significantly altered) magic
system, we've discovered effective ways to turn several spells into
[Magical] feats, modeled on the psionic feats.

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Nik
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