Alchemy...

[Thomas]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I have way to many ideas swimming around in my head to be healthy. I
have very little time to actually be at a computer coding Chazm but way
too much time to think about it. I have planned the hell out of it and
I am starting to think of things that i probably cant code for months.
I have too many ideas to discuss all at once but i figure that i should
bring one up now. I dont know how to do Alchemy. I am sure there are
many great ways to do this. I see four possibilities:

*Note: i have no alchemist class, instead the Druid class can have a
skill alchemy

1) this has been discussed before:

somehow randomly create 20-40 or so recipies for potions at the games
start and have the player discover them. But how should the player find
them. Do they have to experiment or should npc's tell them... or what?
Also each recipy would be assigned a difficulty for the player's skill
to test against

2) this was my idea
Every potion in the game has a cirtain number of domains... some may be
the same. when potions are mixed you mix up a list of all the domains
and then pick a random potion from that list and have the rest runoff
with a magical sideffect... mostly bad...
this way there are all preset recipies but there are HUGE NUMBERS OF
THEM and they arn't always there. EG:

!X + !Y = TONS OF DOMAINS =

either potion A with little runoff 65% chance (maybe...)

or potion B with tons of runoff

I like this idea a lot because adding potions is easy and the entire
system is preset so you can carry knowledge from game to game but is
not like
A+B=C //always!

It would be like this:
Alchemist mixes an Exploding Potion with a potion of True Seeing
Exploding potion = Fire,Fire,Fire,NegEnergy,Violence,Power
True Seeing potion = PosEnergy,Sight,Sight,Wisdom,Power
this makes:
Fire x 3
NegEnergy x 1
PosEnergy x 1
Violence x 1
Power x 2
Sight x 2
Wisdom x 1

maybe then a claryvoyance potion has sight,sight,wisdom

so you get back a
!oclaryvoyance
and a runoff of
Fire x 3
PosE
NegE
Violence
Power x 2

Hmmm... so sure you have a nice potion back but the runoff on this one
is VERY dangeros you have violence, power, and fire and then the
repulstion of the pos and neg Energys... it could be fun to write a run
off engine...

of course its randome and maybe it would have just picked a Fire x2 and
made a fire potion and left the rest as runoff...

this way an alchmist would have to use their human brain to figure out
what would have a good chance of creating a good potion and also create
little runoff... and then they would use their INT and Alchemy to see
if they succedded or if it all turned to dangerous runoff...!

This all probably sounds really dangerous but i would have some REALLY
rewarding potions that you can only get through alchemy and i would
probably tone it down so that you would have to have quite a bit of
runoff for it to really hut you... and besides you cant forget to wear
your gloves and protective leather alchemy gear while your working can
you...

3) a combo of 1 and 2 where maybe there are domains and all that but on
top of that there are ~30ish preset recipies...

4) basicly number 2 but maybe w/o the randomness... i dont like this
idea very much but it could be les frustrating...

5) all recipies are set at the begining and are random but they TEND
toward cirtain things like a fire domain potion and a water domain
potion might tend to create a nutral domain potion or something...

6) else... other combinations of the above...


P.S. the domains in my game would be easy to implement because the
system will already be there...

in my game magic is split into schools and domains

the schools are from dnd like
necro,evocation,summon,illusion,divine,etc

and the domains are more... elemental like
fire,water,air,negative energy, positive energy, spidermagic, earth,
cold, shadow, eleven,... things like that

different places also heighten cirtain domains
EG: plane of fire heightens the effects of fire spells and fire potions
and fire...

Sorry to ramble but that is the background on domains in my game...

-Thomas
RL: CHAZM

 

[Thomas]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Yes, CHAZM will be an RL...!

(i guess you would say A roguelike but AN R.L. )

Sounds good. Yeah. I think i will start small in the first version and
then test my system (#2) because I think that it would produce results
like you said. Maybe system #2 with some type of spin each game that
includes or unincludes cirtain recipies...

I like the idea of the player having to figure our recipies but i think
its all a balence. The fun of an RL (often) is learning from your
mistakes and victories. If you try mixing a potion of slowmonster and a
potion of invisibility and you get a !oPerminantInvis then you would
love to be able to try it again next time!

2 other notes

CHAZM will, like ADOM, be closed source so that people will have to
discover things to playwithout too many spoilers. I will also however
encourage that people share spoilers about the game unless they become
too extreem and that way a comunity of poeple can benifit from others
playing...

I do ALSO realize however that it somebody found that a !oX and a !oY
created a !oInvicibility every time that it would be all over very
quickly and it could ruin the game for some people.

This is why i think (agreeing with what you said...) having tendencies
that stay throughout the games with uncirtainty maybe mixed with some
completely randome recipies would make for a great game...!


Escaped the mouth of Lauri Vallo:

>5. if you have such a complex alchemy system i wouldn't limit it to a
>single class, or a single hard to train skill, so that the work
>doesn't go to waste.

- Yeah

I know what you mean but then again.... it doesent hurt the game only
my workload to add it... When i first started playing NetHack (7-8
years ago as a kid) i thought that the best thing about the game was
how you could play a cirtain way for a year and then suddenly start
Quaffing from fountains and suddenly new things would happen...

If a player played a fighter or thief for all of their games and then
tried out the druid it would be a nice surprise... besides as long as i
get the framework done and have time to add fun things like that...
(alchemy) then i will have fun adding the system! If i didn't have fun
programming and coding and planning my game then... ... i wouldn't be
doing it... its just a hobby after all..

Thanks for your thoughts!

-Thomas
RL: CHAZM

 

[Thomas]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I dunno, I'll ponder this... interesting idea for sure!

hmmm.... but wouldn't things like that be included in your skill rank
in alchemy...?...

-Thomas
RL: CHAZM

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Part of what was important in my alchemy idea (which is where we
started discussing yours) is that the characters can't mix anything
UNTIL they know the ingredients, and players don't need to memorize the
ingredients since:

1. the ingredients for each mixture are mostly random
&
2. you can view the list of mixtures your character knows in a menu
in-game at any time.
&&
3. Some towns in game feature a library, where you can look-up what
creatures drop what item. Later on, I plan to have an online bestiary
complete with graphical sketches of the ascii characters (I'll probably
try to use a variety of fonts in .gifs to get the right effect), and
info about what the creatures drop.

The same is going to be true for my game's engineering schematics, but
the parts won't generally be dropped by monsters (why would an orc be
carrying around a large cog?)

 

[Thomas]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

I think that you just have to define what the PLAYER has to do/remember
and what the CHARACTER has to do/remember. I think that the skill
should be the character's and the recipies would be a more fun aspect
for players to remember. I _do_ think that some recipies or at least
recipie tendencies should carry from game to game but that players
should not be able to just post spoilers of all the games' good
combinations....

I THINK I understand your menthod but it seems to be a little like
having a set story where you need to get a companion party member who
later invariably betrays you.... If you are playing this the 2nd time
you have to just pretend you dont know he will betray you. You are
saying that you cant know the recipy until you find the recipy even if
as a player you know what it is?

Correct me if i'm wrong....

-Thomas
RL: CHAZM

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

On 4 Aug 2005 12:42:56 -0700, "Thomas" wrote:

>I have way to many ideas swimming around in my head to be healthy. I
>have very little time to actually be at a computer coding Chazm but way
>too much time to think about it. I have planned the hell out of it and
>I am starting to think of things that i probably cant code for months.
>I have too many ideas to discuss all at once but i figure that i should
>bring one up now. I dont know how to do Alchemy. I am sure there are
>many great ways to do this. I see four possibilities:
>
>*Note: i have no alchemist class, instead the Druid class can have a
>skill alchemy
>
>1) this has been discussed before:
>
>somehow randomly create 20-40 or so recipies for potions at the games
>start and have the player discover them. But how should the player find
>them. Do they have to experiment or should npc's tell them... or what?
>Also each recipy would be assigned a difficulty for the player's skill
>to test against
>
>2) this was my idea
>Every potion in the game has a cirtain number of domains... some may be
>the same. when potions are mixed you mix up a list of all the domains
>and then pick a random potion from that list and have the rest runoff
>with a magical sideffect... mostly bad...
>this way there are all preset recipies but there are HUGE NUMBERS OF
>THEM and they arn't always there. EG:
>
>!X + !Y = TONS OF DOMAINS =
>
>either potion A with little runoff 65% chance (maybe...)
>
>or potion B with tons of runoff
>
>I like this idea a lot because adding potions is easy and the entire
>system is preset so you can carry knowledge from game to game but is
>not like
>A+B=C //always!
>
>It would be like this:
>Alchemist mixes an Exploding Potion with a potion of True Seeing
>Exploding potion = Fire,Fire,Fire,NegEnergy,Violence,Power
>True Seeing potion = PosEnergy,Sight,Sight,Wisdom,Power
>this makes:
>Fire x 3
>NegEnergy x 1
>PosEnergy x 1
>Violence x 1
>Power x 2
>Sight x 2
>Wisdom x 1
>
>maybe then a claryvoyance potion has sight,sight,wisdom
>
>so you get back a
>!oclaryvoyance
>and a runoff of
>Fire x 3
>PosE
>NegE
>Violence
>Power x 2
>
>Hmmm... so sure you have a nice potion back but the runoff on this one
>is VERY dangeros you have violence, power, and fire and then the
>repulstion of the pos and neg Energys... it could be fun to write a run
>off engine...
>
>of course its randome and maybe it would have just picked a Fire x2 and
>made a fire potion and left the rest as runoff...
>
>this way an alchmist would have to use their human brain to figure out
>what would have a good chance of creating a good potion and also create
>little runoff... and then they would use their INT and Alchemy to see
>if they succedded or if it all turned to dangerous runoff...!
>
>This all probably sounds really dangerous but i would have some REALLY
>rewarding potions that you can only get through alchemy and i would
>probably tone it down so that you would have to have quite a bit of
>runoff for it to really hut you... and besides you cant forget to wear
>your gloves and protective leather alchemy gear while your working can
>you...
>
>3) a combo of 1 and 2 where maybe there are domains and all that but on
>top of that there are ~30ish preset recipies...
>
>4) basicly number 2 but maybe w/o the randomness... i dont like this
>idea very much but it could be les frustrating...
>
>5) all recipies are set at the begining and are random but they TEND
>toward cirtain things like a fire domain potion and a water domain
>potion might tend to create a nutral domain potion or something...
>
>6) else... other combinations of the above...
>
>
>P.S. the domains in my game would be easy to implement because the
>system will already be there...
>
>in my game magic is split into schools and domains
>
>the schools are from dnd like
>necro,evocation,summon,illusion,divine,etc
>
>and the domains are more... elemental like
>fire,water,air,negative energy, positive energy, spidermagic, earth,
>cold, shadow, eleven,... things like that
>
>different places also heighten cirtain domains
>EG: plane of fire heightens the effects of fire spells and fire potions
>and fire...
>
>Sorry to ramble but that is the background on domains in my game...
>
>-Thomas
>RL: CHAZM
>


1. start small with something that works

2. pick one system and see its consequences:
will the next character remember the recipes? why? i don't like this
at all :-(
do you want people to memorize a huge list of spoilers to be
effective? if we can, we will, but some (most? (i hope)) of us would
rather not do it

a random description on potions when found isn't enough
my suggestion:

the system you talk of it too static still, but you have a good idea
there. you need to mix up the effects of the potions each game, but,
you can still make it stay logical.

example: in the first game firewater+invisibility would make

lousy invis 45%
flame breath 20%
stomach ache and blinky, but effective invisibility 35%

second game would have

lousy invis 20%
flame breath 30%
see invisible 40%
invisible weapon (attack bonus) 10%

3. make mixing potions fast and easy. this is a roguelike (is it?). i
might die any second. the ingredients shouldn't be too rare either

4. don't make the system that complex unless you plan on basing your
whole game on potions. of course you could have similar plans for
spells and fletching, but start small, and maybe add the runoff system
when the basics are working

5. if you have such a complex alchemy system i wouldn't limit it to a
single class, or a single hard to train skill, so that the work
doesn't go to waste.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Thomas wrote:
> I think that you just have to define what the PLAYER has to do/remember
> and what the CHARACTER has to do/remember. I think that the skill
> should be the character's and the recipies would be a more fun aspect
> for players to remember. I _do_ think that some recipies or at least
> recipie tendencies should carry from game to game but that players
> should not be able to just post spoilers of all the games' good
> combinations....
>
> I THINK I understand your menthod but it seems to be a little like
> having a set story where you need to get a companion party member who
> later invariably betrays you.... If you are playing this the 2nd time
> you have to just pretend you dont know he will betray you. You are
> saying that you cant know the recipy until you find the recipy even if
> as a player you know what it is?

In a sense, yes, but not really. Again, the recipes are RANDOM, so even
if ythe PLAYER knows the recipe because they're playing it twice, the
PLAYER won't know what the recipe calls for THIS time. It helps
eliminate a priori information regarding the game's mechanics, which I
believe is rather nice. It's having a story where one of your
companions WILL invariably betray you, but you're not sure which one,
because its different every time. The metaphore doesn't translate quite
as well at that point, because part of the fun in that game might be
guessing which companion would betray you.

Also, since the recipes are random, I don't think its really fair to
force a PLAYER to memorize a large list of randomized ingredients every
game. This will probably be taken care of by having a recipe book for
the CHARACTER, much like one of those silly ones you can buy at the
bookstore with the three-ring binding, so you can add pages. Just
because your CHARACTER has learned Potion Alchemy doesn't mean the
PLAYER needs to know the recipe for every potion - you (both the PLAYER
& CHARACTER) will need to find more recipes throughout the game.

I haven't even tried to come up with a system for mixing two potions
together. You've got this weird heredity thing like the potions have
DNA.. fairly sophisticated IMO, and kind of cool. I was considering
having each ingredient have a sort of "property" so in order to mix a
potion of fire protection, {liquid} + {fire} + {protection}, and
amnesia powder would require {dust} + {mind} + {forgetful}, but even
then, mixing these two items would produce {water} + {dust} + {fire} +
{mind} + {protection} + {forgetful} - and even using just 20 or so of
these properties, it gets WAY out of hand VERY quickly.

The other downside with my system is that its extremely difficult to
try to "mix your own" potion. This is a potentially dangerous practice
anywhere I know, so the likelyhood of mixing the appropriate items
together is slim, but it might be a nice feature to add. At least with
your method, maybe by mixing together ingredients that had the same
element you could get something servicable. Alchemy is not like
chemistry though - its magic, so maybe it doesn't need to play by those
sorts of rules.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

In article <1123184576.440244.43060@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, "Thomas" <comments@foresightsagas.com> wrote:
>this way an alchmist would have to use their human brain to figure out
>what would have a good chance of creating a good potion and also create
>little runoff... and then they would use their INT and Alchemy to see
>if they succedded or if it all turned to dangerous runoff...!

If you wanted to go totally crazy you could make stirring the mixture
significant, as featured in Harry Potter books. In the books, stirring
the correct number of times, and in the right direction (clockwise or
counterclockwise) makes a difference. :^)

Alan

 

[Thomas]

Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.development (More info?)

Cool. I guess the only diference is that in mine, it would help to
figure out the game dynamics yourself and in yours you eliminate that
so that people can't figure it out and then post

!oX = 25%
!oY = 60&
!oZ = 15%

etc.

Sounds cool.

Maybe something simpler more about a few general domains that always
appose another like:

Fire ............................ Water
Earth........................... Air
Power ......................... Weakness
PosE .......................... NegE
Death .......................... Life
Mind ........................... Body

So expolding potion mixed with extra healing would be:

Fire&Body&Power + Life&PosE

=

Fire, Body, Power, Life, PosE

which might be

!oProtection = Power, Body, Life

+ Fire and PosE runoff which might create a small explosion and deal
1d8 damage or something....

basically the same as my idea but with all opposing domains... Maybe
then the big goad of a player playing a druid in CHAZM would be to
never let two oposing domains get mixed as runnoff ... this might
magify the problem.

so the above situation might bo worth it. !0Protection might be a VERY
worth it potion for only 5-6 hp down... but the following might by
something to avoid
essense of fire+summon greater water elemental =
fire&fire + water&power&body=
fire,fire,water,power
= exploding potion (fire,body,power) + fire&water

so you would get a nice exploding potion and a really nasty magical
sideeffect because of the opposition in the runoff....

Thoughts?

-Thomas
RL: CHAZM